WordWolf

We can discuss that in the Doctrinal forum without derailing the thread about the evils of wap...... :)-->

Good question, Oakspear. Speaking for myself..... The impression I was getting second-hand was that there were some problems at the bot level-specifically with lcm. Since I was naive enough to credit them with every positive motivation, I actually told someone the higher-ups will settle this amongst themselves. I said it and I was confident that lcm would come around. (I already said I was naive.) One of the people I said would talk to lcm and make sense would be vf. The next news I got on the subject was the letter. (vf is fired, signed lcm.) So much for making sense. I reviewed the letter itself, and concluded the letter was flawed in doctrine. Being the kind of guy that likes to see things for himself, I attended the '89 ROA. I said "If there's a turnaround, it will be announced here. If there isn't, this is my last chance to hit the bookstore." (I didn't know how much was available in bookstores outside of twi. Naive.) I spoke to people from all over the country, listened as leaders, spokesmen and self-appointed thought police spoke and watched my movements, I was threatened with physical violence for asking questions, (which was a more revealing answer than I got otherwise), and I noted error after error from the mouths of leaders at every level. Comments from other people attending for the last time included words like "dismal". That was as much information as I really needed.

I've learned here that those of you who were forced to sit thru lcm's wap class had to sit thru lcm redefining "original sin". If vpw's explanation-which as LEAST was not tossed at newbies in the intro class-was odd and ill-documented, lcm's seemed invented from whole cloth. Apparently, his one piece of documentation consisted of a single painting done in the Renaissance or something. (Feel free to provide specifics.) He then spins this "explanation" about how the original sin was some sort of sex act with the devil on the part of both Eve and Adam, with the devil in the physical form of a woman at the time. So, it was an "original threesome" that was the original sin of Man. (I'm not going to speculate on lcm's fixation with threesomes at this time.) According to you people, this pronouncement naturally results in the entire room looking puzzled at lcm, wondering if he's lost his mind. Seeing he's completely lost the room, lcm said "You don't see it? Too bad-I do." In other words, 'I don't care if it makes no sense at all. Since I'm in charge, that's the answer, and that's what you'd better be teaching.' Seems lcm's policy was one of divine fiat. He made little effort, if any, to actually be scriptural in his answers. He declared certain things were true, and that others were to adopt his statements as gospel or else. Never mind if the Bible really says what he's saying. (Hm, that sounds vaguely familiar.)

Hope, It's still about Craig's loy-alty letter. We're going into intent and results and so on. One poster here seems to think that it was appropriate for lcm to draw the line in the sand, saying twi was a corporate entity that was entitled to demand loyalty to it's chief executive officer. Others seem to say that the motives for such a demand were flawed, the demand was ungodly, and the results decimated the organization's effectiveness to do anything except micromanage. Me, I think the evidence bears out the second point of view in exacting detail and by a mountain of evidence, horror stories, personal testomonies, etc.

You got a subwoofer? I'd make sure your windows are all set in properly. Someone I know had their bathroom mirror shake when someone had their playback set to "seismic". It's like having those speakers with the settings that go up to "11". -->

A) Yes, I meant 1989, the loy-alty oath and the line in the sand, all at lcm's behest. (He wrote the letters, he canned the people who didn't kneel, etc.) B) OM, you STILL are unaware that many letters were sent to hq and the responses were either 1) that's none of your business-we made the call, now you must obey 2) you are "marked and avoided" for "causing divisions". Same story in all 50 states, man. Nevermind, I have my answer. Forget I asked.

All I can say is- what a freaking waste of time for them to compile a file on ME. I was never a big shot anywhere, and left LONG before they began running in full paranoia mode. I've been out MUCH longer than I was in. If they STILL think I'm worth a file, they REALLY don't have anything better to do with their time. They might try this "Bible" thing people used to bring on grounds, and read out of. ======================== WayGB, how does it feel to spend all your time propping up a religious organization where you live in fear of getting a cold and being accused of insufficient believing? Where every word you speak is being jotted down-you already KNOW they're compiling files on YOU that are TWICE as big as ours. :D--> When every moment might be your last-you might be the NEXT person to get the bum's rush off grounds in one hour with what few belongings and pocket change you haven't given them? Remember when it was about the blessings of God, not the whispers and rumours? Christians all over this country don't live like that, you know, and most of them are better off financially and socially than you. How long before you are swallowed, sponge, having been drained dry of any usefulness to them, and now sentenced to be exiled from them, His righteous one forsaken (by them), His seed begging bread? You KNOW they've stolen your future. There's hundreds of people, probably thousands, they drained dry already. Do you REALLY want it that way? If you leave, you at least have a CHANCE at a life. If you stay, you KNOW you don't.

Eh- when you ask God, is it about HIM or about YOU? If it's about HIM, be patient and pray. Look up George Mueller and prayer on the internet. If it's about YOU, there's no point in praying- you're not going to let go of your concerns, but hang onto them when God wants to relieve you of your burdens.

So, Oldies, here's my one question. Feel free to answer it just to you but not me. (I ask you to at least answer it to you, please.) If you knew then what you know now, what decisions would you have made? I mean, if you knew then EVERYTHING you know now, like, God gave you revelation of all the things to come, 1989 to 2004 March, say, concerning twi, lcm, and all the Christian-type people, splinters, moglets, Christians who never heard of them, WayDale, GSC, and all the other websites? What decisions would you have made with full 20/20 hindsight? "Forgive and forget", serve twi still, thru the '90s? Or something else, ANY of hundreds of something-else's you could have done? If given a chance to do it all over again NOW, as if your mind NOW went into your body THEN, what would you do? (Just trying to make my question as clear as possible- it's all meant to be the same question rephrased, thus, only one answer to yourself would be warranted. If it pleased you, one to me as well.)

People have posted here about how vpw's attendance at certain weekend-long events somehow morphed into great friendships where vpw learned so much from these people. It's probably a lot like his claim of having taken all the Moody correspondence course extant when he was studying, which Moody has no record of. He also claimed, at ROA '77 AND '79, to have reproved Norman Vincent Peale face-to-face, where Peale claimed to discard the Bible on a subject and prefer his 5 senses. Anyone know if he actually MET Peale?

Part of me is fascinated by the singing choraling of the Chorus Choir, which they posted on the internet worldwideweb. Any of you have anecdotal stories I might read typed?

His name is William Hung. I hear he's getting AIRPLAY somewhere. WHY I can't imagine. ======================================= No kidding- they call it "the Chorus Choir"? That's hysterical moronic!

I knew about this back when cordless phones were new. Electromagnetic fields near the body are never that great. I don't sweat temporary exposure, but I'm not surgically connected like some people. There used to be something you could buy that partially insulated a phone's magnetic field. I wonder if you can buy it for a cell phone...?

How about saving the gloating and nose-tweaking until AFTER you win, and saving as many surprises as possible for court? Sun Tzu would slap you for telegraphing your moves.

Sounds like he may have decided his handwriting wasn't that special-looking, and so he NEVER used his own signature. Instead, he used other people's handwriting for his own. This is pretty consistent with his established M.O.... "yeah, vpw did everything, nobody else did anything..."

Hello, Joe Believer! I'm reasonably certain that wasn't meant as a slander. If you've been catching up on the many threads all over the place here, you may have seen the following things... (among others) A) posts where people expose covered-up things from twi B) posts where people expose errors and problems in twi's teachings C) posts where people expose the origins of twi's materials D) posts where people claim it was never really bad E) posts where vpw has always been God's favourite-according to some F) posts where pfal has always been God's special class The posts in the latter category tend to impede the healing of people who are coming to grips with how much was hidden from them, how many lies they were told, and how good God is once you remove the thousand-and-one shackles twi doctrine hobbles God's grace with. These posts come anyway. Some people claim the ONLY purpose some people have here is to say bad things about vpw and twi. Usually, these people claim that there were never any lies, vpw never raped or molested anyone, vpw was never a control freak, pfal was never ripped off from other Christians, and things would be as perfect as they once were if only we went back to pfal.... We get that from time to time, from people who refuse to move forward- then accuse others of being unable to move forward. So, your post made it sound like you might have been advocating that. Me, I'm thankful for the results I did see and the legitimate things I learned. I'm also thankful I'm free of the organization that would have sucked the life out of me as I sought to be my best for God. It might be unclear if you feel the same way, or if, instead, you meant to say that the horror stories some suffered thru never actually happened. So, that, I'm sure, was the thought behind the pointed question.

Puts that old "each one, reach one" in a different light, eh, Socks?

Have any of you heard about the confessions? Some people who committed crimes came forward and confessed after watching the movie. They were convicted of their own consciences. (No, really. I checked the story directly off the Reuters website to confirm I was getting it right.)

Galen, you could be going in any of a number of directions from there. If you see a pattern, please pass it along. I may agree, I may not. I get enough of the pedantic thing on certain other threads, and I know you're capable of better, so please don't make a liar of me.

It's amazing how many people seem to know the exact global map of things after Revelation 21:1. It's also amazing how few of them can cite a verse for their precise map. I at least admit I can wait and see, mainly because I have no fricking idea how it's going to look. I can make a considerable case for one thing, and, for the life of me, it doesn't make any sense at all, so I don't. (It has to do with New Jerusalem.)

CW, I think it's at least partly so to a lot of us, not necessarily all at the same time.

I quote what George Carlin said about his Catholic school experience. His pastor talked the diocesis into trying out progressive education. No sweating out grades, boys and girls together, no uniforms, movable desks not in a row... "In fact, there was so much classroom freedom that by 8th grade, many of us had left the faith! They had made questioners out of us, and they didn't really have any answers. They always fell back on 'Well, it's a mystery.' 'Jezuz, mystery...thank you faddah...mystery (what's he talking about?)' "

Idiot. If he's carried the logic all the way through, he'd have said it was NOT the result of the battle between 1:1 and 1:2, but God's renovation work in 1:9 and 1:10. The results were very good. Then again, those of you who are not Gap theorists think the entire subject is silly. So, he makes even LESS sense to you...

Well, it could be stated as 100%, but, like all absolutes in society, it would be an error. :)--> You served where you were sent, and worked your little heart out for God's people, was my point. Others worked their way to Limb, and, I expect, other places, because they wanted to get to fancy-schmancy titles and perks. You didn't scheme to get to where you were sent.

I think Galen just proved my point about wc and leadership. The ones who really wanted to help people stayed on the field and worked their little hearts out locally. The ones who wanted to be in charge climbed the ladder, and circled the Limb locales like vultures. Those are the ones Galen saw.