johniam

If I had to pick wow families, I think it would be easier to trust God to say no, not this person with this family(stuff like that), than it would be to suppose God really needed every wow to be in the "perfect" family situation. There's places in the OT (not sure exactly where) where God told Moses who should be the leader in military placements for each tribe. I'm sure those folks didn't always get along.

I can only give an idea. We had to write an essay called 'Myself as a wow'. Hopefully nobody got the 'from birth to corps' treatment. Well, in my essay I wrote that I'd hitched to every corner of the country. Don't recall why, but I thought that would impress them. It must have; they sent me to Rolla, MO, not far from the designated geographical center of the USA. Ain't that heaven sent? Wasn't bad.

quote: John....what's with the focus on LCM? I compare him to you in one context, then I compare him to CG in another context, and this means I'm FOCUSSING on him? Yes, that's a hollow argument. quote: "...earned much more." Much more WHAT? Someone else posted that CG hadn't earned anything. Ask that person. Jeez you guys can't seem to focus on ANYTHING except your witch hunt.

You could say that at first; I never heard of the guy before 1986, but after 27 years? He's earned much more than LCM at this point. Same hollow arguments.

Now you're sounding like LCM. He once told us that there's 15 places in Timothy and Titus which have the phrase "the doctrine" and it referred to the 7 church epistles and if you're in leadership (Timothy and Titus are "leadership epistles") then it is assumed that you KNOW what "the doctrine" is. You keep referring to the "wierwille-doctrine". Let's see. Pfal foundational alone was 34 hours. Lots of doctrine in 34 hours. Yet, we're assumed to KNOW what the "wierwille-doctrine" is. But I thought VP plagiarized everything. Wouldn't it really be the BG Leonard doctrine? Forked tongue. I'm not up to speed on other offshoots, but the fellowship I attend, which is associated with Chris Geer, has been hammering home that there is no believing raygun which you can shoot at anything you want and get anything you want. Also, that the words "ask" and "thank" are not synonymous. Both of those are contrary to what VP taught. Also, remember that VP kept musicians on a short leash, at least as far as lyrical content was concerned? Our fellowship has 3 big meetings every year; Easter, Pentecost, and Jesus' real birthday. For the past 7 years or so, I have been called on to have 3 songs ready for those meetings. Sometimes I play alone, sometimes I have other musicians. This year on both Easter and yesterday on Pentecost I worked with a recent foundational class grad. He's about 30 years old and plays a keyboard instrument. We did 2 songs that are not old way prod songs like most of the ones I do. The only lyrics I changed were Christ or Christ Jesus instead of just Jesus. The songs went over very well. They are I will rise, by Chris Tomlin and Where I belong, by Building 429. Both can be seen on youtube. Being a musician and having been subject to the 'ego trip waiting to happen' kind of scrutiny that musicians in twi were subject to when VP was alive, I find this a breath of fresh air. Moving beyond Wierwille? It never was about Wierwille for me. I never prayed to VP; I pray to God.

There was this man who started a religion for married couples only. He met with 3 couples who agreed to be in this religion. The man told them the first thing they had to do was abstain from sex for one month. One month later the man met with all 3 couples again. He talked with them privately this time. The first couple had been married 25 years. He asked them if they successfully abstained from sex for that month. They said yes. He said tell me how it went. They said the first 2 weeks were OK, the third week they got a little edgy, and the fourth week they got real edgy, but they made it. That's great said the man. The second couple had been married 10 years. Same questions. They said the first week was OK, the second week they got edgy, the third week they got real edgy, and the fourth week was pure hell, but they made it. The third couple had been married only 6 months. They didn't make it. What happened said the man. Well, uh, the first week we got real edgy, the second week was pure hell, and early into the third week my wife bent down to pick up a can of beans and I just lost control. Well, said the man. I can't let you join THIS time, but...Oh,that's OK, said the couple, they won't let us in Quik Trip anymore, either.

I agree. The spirit of God can work in any culture, but there was no opportunity in the first century for marketing like this. That doesn't automatically make it wrong to do that today.

Small potatoes? He was our mog. What did that make us? Small tubers?

quote: Hey, John! Who the heck are you talking to? You quoted a post that I put up, but you do it in such a way that my name does NOT appear! Why? You quote Luke 8:38. Are you meaning to imply that you are a fox, being crafty and clever to have a hole to hide in? Howzabout Romans 12:7 or II Corinthians 8:21, providing things honest in the sight of all men? Love, Steve Uh, that's Luke 8:58, not 38. Although 38 is interesting. Luke 8:58 is advanced class material. Sort of. This girl twig at my AC (Emporia '84) called themselves the something or other foxes and Luke 8:58 was their twig scripture. Sounds spiritual to me. Wonder if that was Rascal's twig/ she was at that AC I'm pretty sure. That scripture didn't have anything to do with your quote, but IMO your quote didn't have anything to do with anything. At least I got your name in it this time.

quote: Who the heck are you talking to, John? Are you talking to me? I don't wear any rings. What am I to make of your contributions to the conversation that goes on here? Do you have a bone to pick with somebody in particular that you aren't explicitly addressing your remarks to? ...foxes have holes, - Luke 8:58

Whew! Let me get this straight. Walter was head of research so he HAD to be privy to the bad stuff, but Ralph D was trunk leader, international outreach cordo, etc. but he says he had no idea what was going on and you blindly believe him. Nice double standard. Is it not true that you are the self appointed pope of gsc and since Ralph has kissed your ring by being penitent you absolve him, but Walter hasn't been penitent yet so you can't absolve him...aww...whatever. In a related matter, Kris in her book says she was at Gunnison in VPs office and he left the room for a bit and she saw what he was writing and it said unflattering things about jews and she was horrified. She made it sound like she JUST THEN realized VP had issues with jews. What? I don't think so. Stanley Reahard posted on waydale that in 1981 she was at a night owl at HQ with VP and he said that the USA fought on the wrong side during WW2. Kris' account happened AFTER 1981. She knew! But you certainly absolve her as well. I don't give a damn about kissing your papal ring.

Like I said, anything is "easy to spot" if you're on a witch hunt.

Hi Notta. Glad you're doing OK. Just a couple of benign comments about... quote: The thing that chaps my hide: I was filling out a resume and had to put down 15 years of work history! That meant I had to put TWI down. I thought 10 years work history was the norm. Anywhoo. It gets better each day with time out. 1) My last twig cordo in twi was a family corps guy who was an accountant for twi for 9 years before moving to Michigan. He told me that he really wished he didn't have to include being an accountant for a "cult" as part of his work history. He's still in twi too. Ironic. 2) I don't know if you remember who David Craley is, but he got into twi in the early 70s. In 1979 he released a book in which he described himself as a well to do gay guy who went to gay events all over the country. On GSC Groucho once posted that David is now out of twi and openly gay, so I did a search for him and he is on facebook and says he does biblical studies AND he includes twi as part of his biblical training. OMG! I know of 3 celebrities who wanted to distance themselves from twi as much as possible, either for their own involvement or a relative's. Again, ironic.

quote: In a broad-stroke simplification of two groups [A and B].......I have posted many times that twi had many good-hearted, loving, good Samaritan-types of people. And further, I found these people on the field, the WOW program, and EVEN SOME in the corps and on staff. But, you're right Galen. I do know WHO belongs in group B......wierwille, geer, martindale, rivenbark, towns-nd, lynn, cumm!ns, etc. The haughty and prideful are easy to spot. Anything is easy to spot if you're on a witch hunt! I've seen and been around Walter Cummins a few times in the last 2 years. He is not haughty nor prideful. You're the last person who should accuse OTHER people of "broad-stroke simplification".

OMG! The Killer Shrews! Saw that when I was 12. Made in '59 I think. One of the actors in it was Ken Curtis, who later played Festus on Gunsmoke. If one of those things barely nicked you you'd fall down dead in seconds. Just what a growing boy needs, eh?

I don't know what it is about basketball coaches, but they seem to be the biggest hotheads in all sports. Coach Bob Knight is downright charming as an analyst, but as a coach? Yikes! The b ball coach when I was in high school coached the team to 2 consecutive state championships but he was a hothead, too. In 1969 he was alone in a school hallway with a long haired man and he tried to shove him down a flight of stairs. Bad move; the guy was built like a biker and he thoroughly kicked the coach's, uh, foot! You know what I really mean, right? The long haired guy got suspended but nothing happened to the b ball coach. I'd see him sitting on the sidelines and he'd get so mad his face would turn red as a turnip. Wearing a tie didn't help this condition. Later in the 1990s I worked with a guy who played for the same coach a few years after I left HS and he said the guy was still a hothead. I think anybody who has that kind of authority may get tempted to push it too far. The guy from Rutgers? I give him a thumbs down.

Lots of possible situations where forgiveness is an issue. Different degrees of anger or conflict. Variety of ways to deal with it. quote: Compassion has to come into true forgiveness. Compassion because the offender was weak, failed, abused. Did wrong, knowingly or unknowingly. As do we all. Only the self-righteous have no need for compassion. No empathy for offenders. And therefore no need to forgive. How telling it is that when Joseph saw his brothers 22 years after they sold him into slavery, he forgave them to the end that he was at peace with himself. His brothers??? Not so much. They were downright paranoid. They were constantly fending off guilt over what they'd done. Even after Jacob died they thought NOW Joseph will get even. Forgiveness CAN make a big difference. Getting your heart hurt is like physical injury: sometimes it heals without a trace; sometimes it leaves a scar. Lot of good insight on this thread. Many things to try if you're not peaceful and forgiveness is a "suspect". I don't always forgive very well. If nothing else helps I know I can ask God.

Not much for me. Got in the word in MI. Went wow to Rolla, MO. Following year in men's way home in Columbia, MO, next 6 years in St. Louis (4 different addresses), moved back to Grand Rapids, MI where I stayed until leaving twi. For some reason twi never pressured me into moving a lot, but I was never way corps. The spinoff fellowship I now attend doesn't do invasive things to people like that.

OK, I'm going to try to address a few things... quote: why DO you participate on a site dedicated to connecting the dots and cult recovery?... and why do you advocate for things so many other people here find reprehensible? quote: Well, a lot of this site is about lessons learned from having our lives dictated to us by false prophets. This mostly is so we can avoid it in the future, see it coming, recognize it, pick up on the wolf in sheep's clothing stuff, etc. If you don't change yourself, how are you going to avoid what happened to you in the past? quote: John really can't tell the difference between what cults do and what the posters here do (who disagree with each other and are obviously the opposite of a lockstep cult), or what small towns do (like some Mayberry), and had been proud he doesn't and has no plans to understand the difference. It seems he's done all the growing in life he intends to.] TWI got some things wrong, but they also got some things very RIGHT! There is a spiritual presence in this world. God's and the devil's. There is a God breathed word that God's people have always been SUPPOSED to be in subjection to. There is the wisdom of God and the wisdom of this world. Hath not God made foolish the wisdom of this world? TWI got all that RIGHT! If you don't think that's relevant anymore...whatever. All that stuff definitely affects issues in this world. False dilemma??? Whatever. I believe that all of you have relevant things to say. You have strengths and weaknesses like anybody else. There is not one poster here I think of as totally useless. I think you secretly think the same of me. (Sometimes he is lost in the oblivion of VP worship, but he makes some good points) Why do I post here? Because I can say things here that I can't say anywhere else. I KNOW this place. I'm not here THAT damn often anymore. Like I say, TWI got some things right. There IS such a thing as spiritual knowledge versus natural knowledge. IMO, the idea that some guy's flesh can supercede spiritual knowledge is just plain VANITY! This whole belief system around "cult recovery" seems to negate the idea that there is ANY profit in "doing the word". Even negates the idea that there IS a word of God that God's people are supposed to be in subjection to. I call that vanity.

I don't want my life dictated to me by anyone. Not by a religious organization that thinks they're God's true household and not by a special interest group that thinks I should "connect the dots" and devote the rest of my life to "cult recovery".

quote: Why does every thread become about Johniam? Can't you just ignore his least outrageous posts (at any rate) and continue the discussion without his knots in the thread? Frayed knot!

I know what a cult is. It's a religious slur used by the cool churches to diss the nerd churches. Lambda lambda forever!

quote: It was a popular American T.V. show in the 1950's, Twinky, that overly romanticized the simple life in rural America. I haven't the foggiest idea why Johniam associates this with cults. The show premiered in 1960. It was spawned by a 1959 movie called 'No time for sergeants' starring Andy Griffith and Nick Adams. Funny movie. IMO this show did accurately represent small town America at that time and for more than a decade later. All the dynamics that supposedly constitute a "cult" are/were in place in those small towns. I used to hitchhike a lot between 1970 and 1975. Went through a lot of small towns. Saw the paranoid looks on people's faces. Heard the negative comments. Got detained by police a few times. Why? Because my hair (when I HAD hair) was down to the middle of my back. This automatically made me a queer, communist, drug user, and rock and roll listener. Those were the 4 mortal sins in many small towns. I was actually guilty of 2 of them. Even in my high school there was this one kid who was totally into politics. He was so full of himself that he acted like an elite politician, like one of the Kennedys. I may have had long hair, but I had no political consciousness whatsoever. I just liked to party. But this guy one day during government class informed me that him and his republican buddies were going to "rub out" us "pinkos" eventually. I said good for you. But you don't have to be in a so called religious cult to have imformation selected and portioned out to you. IMO those who voted for Obama are being emotionally controlled. Nobody is sticking a gun to their heads, but they're getting their information in the same one sided way that Hassan says "cults do. I'd rather compare twi to Mayberry than Jonestown. Neither is totally accurate, but Mayberry is much closer.

quote: There is no stigma for being conservative nor is being conservative a sin. LOL Tell that to CNN or any other mainstream media outlet.

quote: I don't recall that VPW said what you record in the first quote, Twinky: 1) VP said the things about the firm rock and safe anchorage in the opening remarks of session 1 of pfal. 2) I paste quotes the way I do for 2 reasons. First, as with this post, I don't want to repeat the entire post; just the sentence I quoted. Second, doing it this way emphasizes the words quoted, not who posted them. That's my prerogative isn't it?