OldSkool

Well, the way I see it, TWI likes to quote Joshua where it says "one of you shall chase a thousand." Of course in TWI's annals the one that did the chasing was Martindale and he chased off thousands. So, yes. That few thousand remaining TWI followers are so mighty they can shake the foundations of the earth. I mean look what Martindale accomplished?

Trouble in paradise?

If he monitors traffic to his site then probably so. Don't blame him really. I never tell anyone I was in TWI...

Right. Christian Educational Services (CES) became Spirit and Truth Fellowship International (STFI) - I am not sure why the name changed but basically Schoenheit, Lynn and company were the organizers of this splinter. They got into all the personal prophecy crap chockfull mentioned and wound up with lawsuits flying around in the end of it all. STFI ousted John Lynn in political wrangling that would make the way international proud. John Lynn then gathered his followers from STFI and formed The Living Truth Fellowship (TLTF) JAL is another story entirely. He shamelessly says he wants God to bring him some bored billionaires to give money to TLTF so he can reach the world with his gospel that he shamelessly calls the truth. Anyone had enough acronyms from these good balls yet? Back on topic.

Ya, they justify that with a true load of BS. TWI teaches that God inspires the message but you speak it out using your understanding. Since TWI uses King James version it was said that was what some people's understanding of the Bible was, King James English. Convenient, no?

I have no doubt it may have started as that, but in present day TWI (at least when I left in 2008) the snow job story was never the reason for the anniversary. It was to celebrate the founding of the way international. The snow job story still circulates amongst the inner circles but is not publicly proclaimed the way VPW used to. Rosalie has been vying for legitimacy ever since the Allen lawsuit. In light of those efforts their website now accurately reflects what they are celebrating. I was at HQ when the Allen lawsuit broke. I witnessed all the changes the lawsuit brought to HQ. Rosalie finally understands that in order for TWI to survive they have to tow the legal line. She has spent over a decade working with their lawyers to figure out how to operate, how to whitewash their past, how to operate the corporate side of things so they stay out of court. She has also spent her time bringing Wierwille back to focus and white washing his image. No. Present day TWI claims to have been in existence since 1942 as a biblical research, teaching, and fellowship ministry. I have no doubt that date was chosen because of the snow job story. But they have moved the goal posts. It's their biggest annual event and each year they copiously laud themselves for being in existence another year. Yet anyone can peruse their corporate history to understand they are lying about when and why they formed.

My points exactly. They just lie about things like that, except that danged, evil internet allows anyone to search out the truth about their corporate history. My guess is that biblical research was dreamt up much later as a selling point for PFAL.

Thanks!

Well, to be perfectly candid, it wouldn't be the first lie I told as truth on behalf of TWI. I taught their lie filled doctrine for many years as truth. - law of believing - tithe - blind obedience to leadership - true household - Wierwille/Martindale as MOG And the list could continue.

I think the contradiction comes more into play with my views of glossalalia, and perhaps to a lesser degree, my lack of understanding of it's definition. However, I have always considered glossalalia BS. Perhaps, that was my safety mechanism to protect my TWI theology that never allowed dissent. Now I am considering (that perhaps) the human mind could subconsciously make up something along these lines as a possibility. And yes it's disconcerting. I have faith in man. Man is not always wrong. I think in this case the experts in question have done the best they could with what they have had to work with. Though, I don't find them very convincing considering the scope of what they are studying. And it does clash with my theology concerning the subject. So when given a choice between faith in man vs. faith in God I tend towards faith in God in my best efforts to trust him. I admit that I am a walking conundrum at times when it comes to the remains of my tattered beliefs. But I am working through at my pace and recovering from extremely difficult circumstances in my personal life. So, as I have said, it's been good to get into this subject. GSC has forced me to call into question many beliefs I have held as infallible. Some have stood, many have fallen.

Absolutely, as you should. I am not sure I think you are wrong. There are theological positions, such as tongues going to the grave with the apostles (my wording), that could be true as well. And of course if it were, your point would stand doctrinally. In the short time I have left the way it's been a tough pill to swallow coming to grips that I don't know that I know that I know. In fact, there is more error in my beliefs that I care to admit. And those beliefs were inculcated in my by TWI. So at this point I really am at a loss either way, but my leanings are towards a position of faith. I don't think you can go wrong by having faith in God. With that said, I have a long ways to go with what I believe, the theology behind it all. I have been away from TWI for a short four years. Admittedly, much of that time has been spent caring for my son, getting my family in order after TWI's damage, and hanging at the corner pub. So I am not in a position to disprove you or say you are wrong. I am just at a spot where I know I didn't fake it, but admit that what I did could be glossalia. I am just not overly persuaded by the experts in this case either. And since I am not really trying to figure my beliefs out at the moment, I have hesitated to weigh in. Though what I have shared is my opinion at the moment. Though, my opinion does have elements of reason that are compelling - not that those elements are new to the discussion.

What is it, an estimated 6,000,000 claim to SIT? You guys are very convinced in your points of view. But as it is, you have to deal with the other points of view. Thus the impasse. It's simply too broad of a field to prove or disprove. Thousands of known languages. Millions of people. Where does it go at best? A handful of experts who have studied extremely limited samples. Then they understate known languages to a couple thousand, when there are around 6,800 - nearly 7,000 if you use a rounded figure.

Then proof should be easy to come by disproving SIT in modern times is real. I have followed along. Put me in the chockfull camp.

I think that's where we are at at this stage. There is nothing earth and heaven shattering about experts being in discord with matters of faith.

Again. Cursory google search brings up 6909 known languages in use today. That's not to mention languages that are dead, known or unknown. The Bible never places the limitation on the topic that it has to be understood by those present. Though, there is a record that shows this happened on the day of Pentecost. So, either you can produce someone who is adept in these languages and study a sampling of those who speak in tongues world wide or leave me to my opinion. I have read nothing that is convincing either way in this entire thread, beyond some faked it and readily admit it.

That's thoughtful, but unnecessary. I have read along since post one, done a lot of soul searching, considered various sources. Then there is what I have done personally. I have arrived at the conclusion that some knowingly faked it. Others didn't. I think there are way too many known languages, and certainly way too many dead languages to ever nail it down. Perhaps God has a sense of humor? Perhaps we are to take him at his word? That's my two cents anyway. I really do appreciate you bringing up the subject. It's been uncomfortable delving into it. It's certainly caused me to do away with all that SIT is supposed to prove according to TWI.

Well, certainly you could say what you did and those your were involved with seem to fit the same as your experience - that SIT as practiced by TWI is BS. However, what we did is something you can't really verify since there are thousands of people involved that spanned multiple decades. I can say that what I do when SIT does sound as though it has structure and I did not fake it. Unless one can fake it unknowingly. But then it should sound like jibberish. I think the topic is at an impasse. It serves well to have people come out and say they faked it. I can say before God I never did. Of all the known languages, and all the people that came and went, it's an unproveable situation. To cast others in light of your own experiences isn't really cool either. Unless you can say for sure everyone faked it as well. But then that would take proof. So it is with so many things of God. Proof can be difficult to produce while faith is required. I guess that defines my position. I trust God, I have faith. Even though I may be somewhat of a train wreck when it comes to Christianity.

Again, this has probably been beaten to death on this thread, but besides those who admit they faked SIT (yourself and others) how can you say for sure that what everyone else did was BS? Obviously, speaking beyond your opinion. Just on a cursory google seach I came with 6,909 known living languages when searching "known languages." And I am not stuck on languages of Angels, or heavenly languages. So moving beyond that limitation.

Perhaps this has been covered, but I am not going through 33 pages on a search. Acts has them speaking in people's native language on Pentecost, but does not say this happened elsewhere, though they did speak in tongues as recorded. So we can say that what they did on Pentecost was known languages of men. We don't know if what they did elsewhere when SIT was understood by those present or not. Please correct me where I am wrong as I am going from memory here. But if I am correct, then you could only reasonably say that what we did was/is not what they did in Acts on the day of Pentecost. Forgive me if I am being way-brained here. TWI did teach that Pentecost was unique in that those present understood and many languages were represented.

I can say I never consciously faked anything. I began SIT on my own and was surprised I could do it. I have never questioned what it is I was actually doing, and that is where this thread has helped me beyond TWI's version of things. That people did fake it I am sure. I think TWI puts way too much pressure on people to produce SIT during their foundational class. I have been through so many classes I have lost count. I have conducted excellor sessions for new people and felt like I was their task master. I remember people who couldn't do what the FNC said they could, only to have them produce something jibberish like once the pressure was on them. I don't really feel that anyone here has proved, or disproved anything beyond their own personal experiences. I think there is a certain point where faith is required and perhaps this is one of them. Not that faith should be blind, therefore questions and doubts are good.

Yeppers! Certainly there was no research in 1942 with the Chimes Youth Caravan.

They even lie about their anniversary. So which is it. They count from 1942. But Chimes wasn't officially incorporated until 1947. VPW stated their purpose in his articles of incorporation as: 1947 Original Artincles for The Chimes Hour Youth Caravan, Inc. Yet the way international says on their webite TWI about page But in 1955, Wierwille filed for a name change and updated his stated purpose. The Way Inc. was the name used. 1955 update But he was on his Church's payroll until 1957. This has certainly been talked over before, but what better way to celebrate TWI's anniversary than to get into their supposed 70 years of biblical research, teaching, and fellowship. So did a small bunch of singing kids in 1942 conduct biblical research with VPW? Technically, TWI has been a legal entity under different names since only 1947, not 1942. Strictly speaking of an entities legal existence. Happy anniversary!

The way international is claiming they are celebrating their 70th anniversary today. And of course there is another cheesy theme poster for sale in their bookstore.

Characteristic of wolves, no?

I have had (and I am sure everyone else too) forgetting those things which are behind lorded over me so many time by TWI, I've lost count. I was told to forget my past, family, friends, home town, profession - basically anything and everything that didn't provide some service to the way international. If they would use it then it was ok to remember all of a sudden. I had two offshoots (CFF and STFI) lecture me on the importance of forgiveness in relation to TWI. There is an unsettled account between me and them that the Lord will have to settle. I am not bitter against them, in fact I have moved on to a better life than I ever had with them. But after they attacked me, my family, tried to run a rift between me and my wife, counseled me to have my wife abort our unborn son because the ultrasound detected health problems, etc, I would say we are at odds. Not to mention offshoots rely heavily on Wierwille's works. I would say they have a vested interest in people "forgetting" all the evil he did. That way they can continue the gravy train he started, using his stolen works. Needless to say I have not forgiven TWI because they never asked, nor offered any condolences to make things right. Hell will freeze over first. They are accountable to a lot of people for their evils and one day they will answer.