Lifted Up

So we can have depression as a result of situations, or because of chemical imbalances, or no doubt also a combination of the two. How do we know which? I guess we don't without doing something to find out. A little less than two years ago, Rascal talked about being a pest if she suspected someone was in trouble. Her comments seemed to indicate that she had dealt with such a situation (s) since the TWI example she cited in that thread. I would be interested in getting her to elaborate on what she meant, although I could take a good guess she was talking about getting the person to a health professional. But that still doesn't tell us how to deal with cases like Michael and Josh, where people close to the person evidently didn't know they were in trouble. By now I suspect Robi and others in the family have gotten through the long note Michael wrote. Sigh. I guess the best advice to them I could give would be to keep in mind that this was an illness involved, to honor Michael (and Josh and others) as wonderful people and not be trapped by blame. For example, and a pro can say this better, but I cant see how just one incident, such as Josh getting upset that time, is in any way the reason for the tragedy.

One problem is, as we have seen several testimonies thereof, that suicides can take place when there are no evident signs beforehand, even to those close, as apparently in Michael's case. My Spock logic tells me there was something that wasn't seen in these cases. Notice I didn't say something missed...because when there are no signs seen even by those close, whetever reasons existed were pretty deeply hidden. I have read about suicides that took place when everything for the person SEEMED to be going well. I have read about others where there were obvious problems beforehand, whether they were the cause or contributing factors or just symptoms...financial, marital, etc. And then I have come across the cultural factor that I have seen in my WWII studies specifically on the Japanes people and their leaders during and just after that conflict. I have no argument with your solution, but I think the Bible can have something to do with the more specific subject of this thread (not suicide, but healing after the event).

Neither do I swallow everything. There are a lot of opinions floating around, and just on this thread I could get everyone mad at me (even if they hide it with a shrug or a categorization)...including you, a certain former corps roomie, several others who make blanket statements (on that particular point I agree with you), and probably even Paw. I've done it before (gotten both sides of an issue "unhappy" at me). I must also qualify my following remark, since I have had trouble getting this thing downloaded, and am too much on overload with various things in my life (anyone counted my number of posts last few months?) to spend too much time getting it right. I should, eventually, but for now I cant comment specifically on what I havent heard. There is a difference, though, especially on the internet, between all these opinions flashing around and real testimony from someone who is a real person (i.e. not just an anonymous handle) and who is telling about what happened to him/her. Yes, it still requires judgment on reliability (Maybe I'll get a chance of do that for real next month on jury duty), but if someone on such a personal issue as sexual abuse is willing to talk/tell personally, not on VPW is a so and so, or TWI teachings arent worth a ----, but on simply "This is what happened to me...", and if that is what Kristen's testimony is, then I would put that ten worlds above opinion.

If suicide is a sin, what difference does it make? If I can be saved in spite of my multitude of various sins, why would God exclude Michael or Josh or jen-o's son's friend or anyone else?

Kimberly, sounds like you and Robi could hook up and give each other a lot of love support. And now that I've said it once, I'll shut up about it and back out of your business, since it is easy enough to do it if you want to. I guess all I can do is to think of you two, and especially your sisters and rest of family not hurting so much, and let someone in higher authority (!) work out the details.

I will say this now about the subject. I think someone thinking about suicide may avoid it for a time because he/she knows it would cause others pain and does not want to cause hurt. However, if whatever pain he/she feels becomes too great, it may cloud the feeling of pain that others would suffer. Robi, I don't know Michael and of course dont know what he wrote in those 8 pages you mentioned, so I can just guess strongly that the LAST thing he wanted to do was cause pain for his family. But I also suspect that someone's own great pain, physical or otherwise, can become so unbearable that it can cause him/her not to function.

I don't know if I have the answers on how, but, I think one key part of comforting your family about the idea of Michael being saved and seeing him again, is being sure that neither your sister nor anyone else is burdened by blame or guilt. I think you know something about dealing with blame and guilt for bad things that have happened from earlier in your own life, so take some lessons from yourself. I guess dealing with whatever Michael wrote could be pretty hard, but just as you, the feisty one, would no longer let anyone say it's your own fault for something bad that happened to you during your TWI years, don't let your sister blame herself for this. The same goes for the rest of the family, including your kids...and you. But perhaps this can be best done as Rocky says...not with preaching or teaching, but with love and hugs from the expert on hugs. And by hugs, I mean whatever is the best way to give comfort to the ones you love, for you of course know better than I do what kind of hugs they need. One reason that what Rocky posted hits home came from several years ago when I was feeling generally down, and I guess it showed in my posts. To this day one of the biggest lifts I have ever received came from two e-mail notes of concern I got at that time. I think the two who sent me those notes are still around here somewhere even though i dont see much of them. It certainly wasnt any answers they gave, for they could not have known what answers to give, but it was that they showed the concern. Those were two big "hugs" that warmed me, as i say to this day. It wouldn't surprise me if they don't remember those notes, since they have no idea how important they were. But start with this...TAKE CARE OF YOURSELF! I do my mental put-myself-in-the-other-person's-shoes thing I try to do sometimes. I try to imagine the best I can what it would be like to have lost a brother the way you did, and now have something like this happen. Don't know if I would hold together, especially if I had to deal with the physical discomfort you have had at times. Several times during and after my visit, you pointed out that Pete wasn't in great pain at the time, thanks to medication. But I always suspected YOU were going through a great non physical pain that you weren't showing outwardly. I have some thoughts on the subject of suicide, but I just dont feel right about going into it right now; I may soon, don't know.

Dear Robes, My thoughts are with you and I will have more to say soon.

(Feb. 8) - On the night of Feb. 20, the full moon will pass into Earth's shadow in an event that will be visible across all of the United States and Canada. Visible of course to the extent that the weather cooperates. That's where we start getting bugged. There will be a total solar eclipse cutting across the heart of the country in August 2017. If I am still around here then I'll have to go to central or southeast NE to see it; dont remember without looking if it will cut across St. Louis or not.

Happy Birthday, young friend!!!

A couple of hedges there, George? namely, the words "getting closer to" (meaning you're not there yet), and even if you get there, your word "nigh" (close to, right?). Of course, I attribute a lot of that to your honesty in not pretending to be absolutely sure. That is, if I don't have adequate proof there is a God and/or that there is a God as the Bible details, you do not have adequate proof that there isn't, and I believe you have honestly stated this. So, I shouldn't be immoral by believing in God as the Bible describes, and you shouldn't be immoral by believing God is not with us. Of course, there are a lot of immoral people betting on this Sunday's game without adequate proof. Some people claim they "know that they know", but if they could, would they bet their life for a few sawbucks? Seriously, I wish either one of us could do something to deliver some smiles to Vickles...HER smiles, not just ours.

Dunno if I can sense your feeling or not. Even my Spock logic tells me that whether or not there is a God is by no means going to depend on any turns my life takes. But I might have at least a faint feeling at times that making God real in my own life seems too hard at times, or that I've screwed things up too much for Him to work. I may at times have doubts about these things myself. Can it be enough to make one lose hope? Perhaps. I just have to go on the assumption that somehow God is going to pull things out for me in spite of me. I may not be sure things are going to work out, but I may as well proceed on the assumption that they will with God's help, because it doesnt help me to assume that things will go to complete pot. If you can find a source of help outside of God from someone here or elsewhere on your own, go for it. I dont know that I can be sure that God is NOT behind any help I get, but of course those who want to go to the mountain top and shout how they were helpd greatly without God are free do do so. I cant help you much otherwise, except to say i am thinking of you and praying for you. If there is no God, then it is left to just my thoughts, and you know how much bread (or whatever you need) my thoughts are going to put on your table. Ya know, if you are not sure, try praying anyway. Even if it is just something like "God, if you are out there and real, would you please help me somehow?" If God isn't out there, what have you lost? If He is, well, let's see what follows. Ask Him to show you something. Get in touch personally with someone you think you can trust to some degree. One thing I have seen around me at times in my life, and that includes several times on GS, that really really tees me off is when someone tells someone else to "get help" in an obviously derogatory tone. I dont care if it had something to do with a matter that is totally irrelevant to your problem or mine or someone else's. Such frequent use of such a tactic turns people's minds off to asking for help as a POSITIVE step. You know what I mean, like "You fool, get help..." and so forth. I gotta admit it has affected me at times. When someone then makes that suggestion in a genuinely helping effort, it may have the wrong ring to it that is not the fault of the person trying to help. I don't know you personally, but I certainly know you as a long time GS poster. I may not know your faults, but I bet I know even less about how wonderful you are. And from what you have contributed over the years, I would bet you really are terrific, even if the words would be hollow if I pretended it was from any personal knowledge.

Even I should have figured that one out after a clue like that! :)

I have seen several people over the years grudgingly admit that there were good things taught in PFAL and in the Way, but they are quick to point out their opinion that it is not to the credit of VPW, but to the credit of God teaching people in spite of VPW. Well, glory be to God! I think maybe they dont realize that there are quite a few of us who found some value in the things we were taught and realize that God, not VPW, should get the glory for whatever good we learned. When, at ROA 1976, VPW deliberately misquoted Ephesians as "Finally, my brethren, be strong in V.P. Wierwille", the "no" response he got wasn't loud enough for him. For show? OK, let it be so and let us take him at his word on that and be strong in the Lord. Not too long ago, a poster stated that the things we learned in PFAL or TWI didnt have anything to do with the "heinous" actions of VPW. When one of our long time posters stated an agreement with that, the first poster suddenyl deleted the original statement. Anyway, Spectrum, it doesnt sound like you are a VPW worshipper, just a God worshipper.

Not everybody is ignoring you. I just cant get it. Got the feeling I should though.

Well there is nothing wrong with that approach, though we have to be ready not to blame the other person if our attempts at "tongue in cheek" humor strike a raw nerve and get an unexpected reaction. Chances are there is a good reason for that reaction that we dont know about or know about but dont take the time to think through before saying/posting. I dont know if that is the case here...I post this response because Groucho's remark reminded me of an occasion not too long ago where at attempt at light humor that I made went sour. There is a quality of being ready to listen to something from someone else that doesnt fit perfectly with what yoo think. There is another quality of understanding that asking a question is not necessarily doubting what someone says but might be an honest attempt to learn more. Groucho has those qualities.

yea, what George said!

yea, what Waysider said, and also what is a collective experience?

I'm no help here, but it is not surprising that creditors let people get as much in debt as they do. I'm not just talking about all the credit card (Pre-aproved!) offers we all get, but financial institutions seem to be always asking people to get more in debt as long as it is with them.

Very good post IMO. Just because someone starts a thread on good experiences they had doesn't mean they are saying someone's bad experience didn't happen just because they dont mention it in that post. Just because someone posts about bad things that happened doesnt mean they are saying someone's good experiences didn't happen. It is when people are afraid that just posting about the good negates the bad, or the other way around, that they feel they have to jump in and in some way state or plainly imply that others are liars.

I'll say. Actually years ago one of our long time posters used that term on herself...just to describe a time when she went out of her way to help someone who had done something repulsive...implying to me that going beyond tha call of duty was waybrain.

I have a feeling that somehow many of these people communicate among themselves privately without need of a forum, or if they use something like that, it is in some private setting away from GS. Just guessing, but my point is that if they need to do such as you suggest, they take the initiative themselves to set things up and/or communicate, not needing you or me to help out.

Okay. That's probably where I am too, with just a few hints in my own experiences. There is nothing wrong with saying that, as long as we are willing to accept that things happened that we didn't see first hand. If you want to find out what really did happen in that galaxy far away, you go learn from your favorite Jedi Master. If you want to find out what happened in TWI that you didnt know about, you go learn from those who were there.

Siberia isnt so bad. If anyone gets banished there, maybe i can see if my wife has some relatives there who can help. :)

A little off topic, but havent seen anything in the prayer thread about your friends lately, so was wondering. If I were in their place, it would be easy enough to have thoughts of failure. Hopefully that is either not the case, or they are reminded by God (perhaps through friends like you) that such thoughts are untrue. And no, you don't owe me any answer on this private matter, but since you brought then to our attention, can't help but think of them. Now back to our scheduled arguments.