Jump to content
GreaseSpot Cafe

The Ubiquitously Hidden Teaching of VPW


Mike
 Share

Recommended Posts

Mike wrote:

"This is a much more substantial foundation from which to see God's Word than the KJV or any other 5-senses scholarly attempts to reconstruct the Bible in our language and culture and time. God has provided us this BETTER something to stand on, and so I talk about it. It got lost so it needs to be talked about, or you need it to be talked up around you. I think this is not immediately easily entreated for you because you are rusty on the material."

________________________________________

But I fear, lest by any means, as the serpent beguiled Eve through his subtilty, so your minds should be corrupted from the SIMPLICITY that is in Christ.

For if he that cometh preacheth another Jesus, whom we have not preached, or if ye received another spirit, which ye have not received, OR ANOTHER GOSPEL, which ye have not accepted, ye might well bear with him (text reads "bear with me ").

2 Corinthians 11:3-4.

Sound familiar? This verse is what I spoke about with regard to another gospel. This is not a good thing, Mike. By the way there are more texts than KJV.

Even Dr. taught us that where God's Word contradicted the word of VPW we should believe God's Word. Written right in PFAL. Would you like me to give you the page? PFAL is not God's Word. It is not even a text of God's Word. VPW declared the scriptures God breathed from Genesis 1:1 through Revelation 22:21. I did not see every verse of the scripture written anywhere in the PFAL materials. Show me where PFAL is declared God breathed? And I mean someplace other than one of your previous posts.

Your assertion that my knowledge of PFAL is rusty is a presumption on your part. Or are you going to say that because I am challenging your statements I must not have your level of understanding of the material? Be careful what you assume.

If you really want to debate the validity of your statements, from the PFAL materials, I can do it. Much better would be for you to agree that God's Word is the only rule of faith and practice. Of course to do that would mean you would have to believe that statement from PFAL.

You say that God has provided us this BETTER something to stand on contradicts God's Word and VPW's writings. Again would you like me to quote the material to you?

You seem to have forgotten one of the greatest points in the class, HOW THE SCRIPTURE INTERPRETS ITSELF, not how PFAL interprets itself.

To coin a phrase, chapter and verse for all of this Mike. God's Word declares loudly it's own credential. VPW, on the other hand, always declared his teachings and writing subject to God's Word. In short you are putting the cart before the horse.

I like many here was hurt at one time in my life about what happened in TWI. When I finally went to God to work this out I realized I needed to have a relationship with God and his word again. I did what you suggested and studied the PFAL materials, and the Word, and dozens of other references and writers in my search to understand God's Word. This time I did not limit God's ability to reveal himself.

Just as he promised in his word I have not been disappointed in my expectations. It is irrelevant who teaches it, God is the hero and God is the one who gives the increase.

You say I am rusty on the PFAL material. It seems that you have grown rusty in your own understanding of God's Word, you also make statements that seem to indicate your own ignorance of what has been written in the very materials you are advocating.

For the man who is fearful or unwilling to believe God's Word this is an easy out. Mastering the PFAL materials is not the same as standing on God's Word. As long as we are discussing mastering PFAL how will I know when I have mastered the materials? What is the goal in mastering the material? What is the credential for being a master of the material? Where is the simplicity in Christ in all of this? In short what does that mean to master PFAL?

You wrote that in your own private life you read God?s Word directly a lot, think it a lot, and apply it a lot. It?s fun. It declares more about itself than this. Of course if you acknowledged this you would have to decide whether you want to believe it. Disclaiming it is an easy way avoid having to believe it.

I am sure you will have a long litany of dribble to respond to my statements here. You also seem to have a problem giving direct responses to questions and statements from others. It seems that I have done exactly what I had originally not intended to do, get wrapped up in this. I am going to end my debates with this letter as I really dont want to continue arguing with you.

I find your assertions foolish and if by some wierd twist of nature you are actually able to convince someone this is all valid then I have sorrow for this person.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

In continuing to read these posts I am convinced Mike is a troll.

He must be. He enjoys the mosh pit too much for it to be anything else. I have seen trolls on other boards and the one thing they all have in common is a wierd pleasure at having their posts responded to and also at stirring the pot with any statement that will get people worked up. These folks do this regardless of whether they believe what they write or not.

Mike certainly fits this criteria. We have ten pages of proof. It's up to everyone here but the best thing to do with a troll is to ignore them.

Don't wrestle with a pig because the pig loves it and all you get is dirty.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

dizzydog--Mike will spin away at what you say but you are correct --he assumes like an All-Star...and always that he knows more, has studied more, mastered more, ... well, you catch my drift....

face it, Mike has us stumped and he's been there afore us...right, Mike???

Link to comment
Share on other sites

alfakat,

It's the material I draw from that's got you stumped. I'm not that smart; just the messenger.

.

dizzydog,

Regarding contradictions between the Word of God and PFAL, I have posted MUCH, but will repeat some here.

The presumption you have that actually have access to THE Word of God by way of ANY English texts is questionable to me. I see a situation where we don?t REALLY have access to the Word of God via the traditional methods. The originals were lost. For the English-only majority of us, all we have are the translators? and versionators? opinions, some right some wrong.

Even when you appeal to the critical Greek texts, you still have documents that are ONLY as authoritative as the 5-senses calculations of the authors of these texts. The critical Greek texts are modern, the oldest from the 16the century. They are useful tools, but devoid of authority.

The ancient fragments are at such variance with each other that the critical texts were deemed necessary.

The first generations of copies were done by a reprobate church, having forsaken the apostle Paul, and a church that was under great persecution. The NT originals were not benefited by a Massorah fence; they are quite the opposite.

When you speak of contradictions between the Word of God and PFAL, you are speaking with little precision. Let me explain.

When you speak of a comparison between ?the Word of God? and the PFAL writings, the former is abstract, and the later is in print on paper. You don?t have a COPY of ?The Word of God.? It?s in your head. Or so you think. But you really don?t have an authoritative paper copy of the Word of God with which to read and compare PFAL to.

No version is The Word Of God!

No translation is The Word Of God!

No modern scholarly compilation (critical Grk txts) is The Word Of God!

No ancient miscopied fragment is The Word Of God!

It was lost! All we have are questionable fragments, and scholarly reconstructions...

...until 1942-85 where God went to work with Dr to fix this situation.

*********

You post is very long, and I only read part so far. It's late and I'm tired.

I will read more, plus I have more material for a previous post of yours. I?m in no rush. I trust you aren?t either. This reply is to a repeating theme I noticed in a previous post and this latest.

My main point: it?s not so simple a matter to compare PFAL to the Word of God, when we don?t really HAVE that Word, only approximations. Not only are the existing texts only approximate, but few of us have really even mastered them. Most of us winged it with both PFAL and our KJV?s.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

dizzydog,

Regarding an earlier post of yours, I can finally post something I?ve been wanting to say for months now. Finally the time is right, and you brought it up.

NOT EVERYONE WINGED IT in their study of PFAL back in the 70?s and 80?s. Not TOO many, but some good number of grads did a pretty good job of mastering the class and the books back in the good old days. There were some in top leadership that had gotten quite a bit mastered, and there were plenty of others who mastered equally well.

This thread?s topic has something to say to this. I believe we OLGs did delve into PFAL mastery, but only in the Natural/Factual side. We did develop a 5-senses understanding of the material, and it worked well for the time it was fitted. But something changed around 1982, and it was announced by Dr in several ways that year in the record he left us. At that time it became available to attain a SPIRITUAL mastery of the PFAL writings, and this is taught in the record by Dr, but it?s to an audience that was unreceptive and unable to hear it.

As this new higher level of understanding was unfolded from 1982 to 1985, Dr?s top leadership turned off more and more to it. In his last teaching he tells top leadership point blank that the NEEDED to master PFAL, and it wasn?t from the 5-senses perspective that he was instructing us to master it. His audience of top leaders heard the teaching, and discounted it?s applicability to themselves, thinking they had already achieved the mastery Dr was calling for, when all along it was spiritual mastery Dr was referring to, and not the 5-senses mastery many already had.

So, those of us who did our darn best to master PFAL, there?s still more to receive from it. We haven?t REALLY finished taking the class. There?s GREAT learning ahead!

Link to comment
Share on other sites

dizzydog,

I just got to the place in your longer letter where you aren't going to discuss these things any more with me. That's all right. I don't mind it if you participate in absentia, while some of your points are discussed. Actually, many already have. I'm surprised that you reduced yourself to mere name calling at the end there.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

dizzydog,

One last item. I do think you're rusty on the material. I was too, until I came back to an active mastery. When I did, I started noticing that Dr does make various types of "Thus Saith The Lord" statements in the record. Now, five years later, my collection amounts to about 90 such statements. About 3 of them were posted in the past three months. That's 87 to go.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Dizzy:

A) Yes, you were right.

You didn't come to the same conclusions he did,

therefore, you didn't REALLY arrive. Mike

knows the material better than you. QED.

B) Dizzy, if you return to the "discussion",

PLEASE cite page, paragraph, etc, and provide

a quote.

C) Please consider returning. I hate being the

only canine in the discussion.

------------------------------------------

Mike,

A) I honestly thought I did a fair job of

summarizing your previous statements on what

I cited. With the exception of a single

parenthetical editorializing, they were

near-verbatim quotes of what you've said on

various subjects, As someone pointed out, they

may not be the WAY you'd like them summarized,

but they are the same points. Frankly, although

they're phrased in a way that most GSC'ers would

disagree with them, that does not mean that

any point was misrepresented.

Honestly, pick ONE. If you'd like a point-by-

point analysis, we can do that, but you seem

inclined against it. So, pick ONE and make a

case. Just because I disagree doesn't mean I'm

going to misrepresent you, intentionally or no.

(Unless you're convinced that's impossible.)

----

B) Technically, I'm still waiting for a

"definition" of mastering. You provided a

checklist of things to do to GET to mastery,

but you still haven't defined the end-gial,

the destination. That's a partial answer, and

does give me some information.

As I said from the beginning, I thought about

what you wrote on the subject. I will think

some more on it before coming to any

conclusions, and I'd prefer the rest of the

information before forming an opinion.

The world is not filled with 1) your acolytes,

2) your enemies 3) people who've not heard

enough to believe the doctrine of Mike.

If you REALLY think I've been coming after you,

you grossly underestimate my persistence.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

OK one more time...

The reason I am done with this subject is because arguing with Mike is like arguing with someone who is convinced the sky is green.

There is no way to debate with them because not only do they deny the facts they wont even acknowledge them when they are presented. Sure I could cite page, chapter and paragraph. What would be the point? Anyone who has taken PFAL can remember VPW making the statements I cited above. Mike did not even acknowledge them.

He wont talk specifics, just generalizations that he has cooked up in his head.

Mike, while I apologize for the pig reference I do think you are an internet troll. This is not meant as an insult it is a term used all over the net for a person who just wants to stir things up, not truly debate with facts. This seems to be your MO. Prove me wrong. I dont think you will.

As far as a choice between which has more credibility, PFAL or the bible in my hands, I will trust the scriptures. Your assertion that the Bible is a fragmented remnant of God's Word is a weak argument devoid of facts. Even if everything you say about PFAL is true where is your proof? As I said before if you disclaim it you dont have to believe it.

The only thing backing up your endless assertions is the air behind your words, or in this case your fingers.

Thats it, now I really am done...

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Mike,

You said

quote:
The ancient fragments are at such variance with each other that the critical texts were deemed necessary.

and

quote:
It was lost! All we have are questionable fragments, and scholarly reconstructions...

The "ancient fragments" are NOT at great variance. In fact, the overwhelming majority of the time, the text variations are simple disagreements in spelling or grammar. I think you are well-read enough to know that, so I think it is dishonest of you to portray the texts we have as badly flawed.

You give a passing nod to the Masorah of the Old Testament, but I have never heard you do anything but dismiss the OT along with the NT as being too far removed from the originals to be credible.

And who is to say that the workmen who labored to make these critical Greek texts were not inspired by God? You want to make the case that VPW was allowed by God to steal the words of other men to include in His work, but you deny that anyone working in the sixteenth century, or the nineteenth, could have the same benefit of divine intervention when handling Holy Writ. They were all church corrupt, according to you. None were able to rise above their denomination to feel responsible to God to handle His Word with honesty. We Wayfers have more knowledge of the true Word of God than anyone else since Pentecost, according to you. How arrogant to claim that we know more than those who made it their life's work (and sometimes were killed for it) to understand scripture in the original languages and earliest translations, and felt a duty to God to not "handle the word of God deceitfully."

If we are to believe you, then the only credible scriptures are those quoted by Wierwille in his writings. According to you, an abundance of amazing writings would be relegated to the shelf of "Interesting for Beginners, but Questionable."

shaz

Link to comment
Share on other sites

dizzydog,

Were you Corps or clergy? If not you certainly act like them, being done before the job is done. All the top leadership of the ministry employed your modus operndi of "I'm right, I?m done with discussions, and the subject is closed."

Well Mr. Corps/Clergy, or imitator thereof, the subject is NOT closed. You can cut and run anytime you think run out of material. I?ll continue without you.

You say you know Dr's teachings, well how about his LAST teaching? What did you know about Dr's final instructions to us and when did you know it?

Did you blow off those final instructions from Dr where he said that LEADERS still needed to master PFAL in 1985, and that their past study was insufficient?

Did you hit the books AGAIN as per Dr's instructions in 1985?

Did you master them in 1979 as Dr told all Advanced Class grads they NEEDED to do?

Did Dr's Last/Lost Teaching slip by you unnoticed? If you are clergy, you had plenty of chances to know about it. I think you blew it off, knowingly, and you now encourage others to disobey their father in the Word to keep you company and help you sear your conscience.

If you are not clergy or ?upper? Corps, I suggest you stop imitating them and the institutions that ruined the ministry God gave us. Dr told us to master PFAL, and you can disobey all you want, but you wont be able to strut around as someone with a command of the subject. Your ignorance or forgetfulness will betray you. I bring Dr?s exact words to the table here, you brought your rusty memory.

[This message was edited by Mike on April 20, 2003 at 11:16.]

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Hi Shaz,

I?m thankful to you for engaging me. I don?t mind debate or disagreement, but ont thing that really gets me mad are those ?Conversation Constrictors? that the upper leadership became, and now dizzdog imitating their cowardice. At least you come up for more detailed discussion, and seem to promise to not end it prematurely.

One of the DEEPEST problems I saw with leadership in the TVT was leadership loosing the ability to conduct friendly debate. First they lost conversation skills in not witnessing and letting the Joe believers bring in new people. Not encountering difficult ideas on the street, or in colleges, witnessing to people who had thought up some real klinker questions, was the first step in their conversational atrophy.

The next step was being surrounded by salaaming grads all the time, they got used to conversations that were essentially one-way. Leader tells how it is, follower asks a small number of minor, non-challenging questions mixed in with a lot of agreement. Friendly disagreement withered in those atmospheres and our beloved leaders become the despots we that contributed more to the ruin of the family on the field than anything else.

So, Shaz, I?m just grateful for this forum and those who aren?t afraid to get into the details. You brought up some important details, and I? will soon get to them.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Mike--you apparently have NO clue how you come off--or you just don't give a tinker's damn...

You either assume OR are completely convinced that you know better. I flat-out reject your premise and your conclusions. And you can brow-beat all you want; I now know of many people who reached the place where vpw did and went much further. He is and was not what you make him out to be.

Face it, Mike--your OPINIONS are not the final word, much less THE TRUTH. And I will stand before my God some day; not before the dogma of ANY man, you included, Sir!!!

Link to comment
Share on other sites

karmicdebt,

Spare yourself and don?t look at this thread on days you don?t want to see it.

alfakat,

Like everyone who writes here, I think I?m right on what I post. Do you ever post on what you think is right? Hey! Join the club.

I do have a clue how I come off. I even knew it before I started posting, thanks to you some. My posting motivation does not spring from a desire to be accepted by people. My motivation is to help people, by bringing out information that has been forgotten, or never known, or never put together properly by many people. This is what I do, primarily, is post info from the record.

Then I also explain what I?m posting, and then I engage in all sorts of replys to the comments they get.

My clue on how I?m coming off, in the category of ?convincing power? to most posters is that I?m coming off very poor. I don?t know about the reading non posters reactions much... yet.

My clue on how I?m coming off, in the category of ?response attraction power? to most posters is that I?m coming off very well. Lots of people want to read and post replies.

shazdancer,

I?m still mentally composing to your post.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

As much as I would like to step out of this Mike I will give you credit for one thing, you know how to invoke a response.

Your Modus of Operandi is I'm right no matter what anyone says. Of course there are silly little things like facts and quotes that you ignore. Guess I struck a nerve there Mike-o.

I have read a number of your entries to this post, roughly 4-5 pages. Enough to see that your mouth is bigger than your knowledge.

You assume much my friend. Who I am or where I came from is a bit irrelevant. Suffice to say I am a son of God who once was as dead in trespasses and sins as you were. You have yet to directly respond to my questions and statements.

How about one question Mike. What determines a persons mastery of PFAL? Give a simple answer to this question. It could be long, thats fine, but one that makes sense, scripturally based and explains exactly what VPW meant when he made the statement. If you can do this I will be happy to come back and respond to you.

I do indeed remember this direction from him. All too well. You can get as accusative as you want with me, the thing is you still have not been able to truly answer to my posts.

You say you bring me Dr's exact words. Well bring them. The only thing you keep repeating is that we were told to master the material. Do you have anything else to say from him? You have yet to reply to his words that I have reminded you of with my rusty memory.

You have a lot of anger Mike. Not exactly one of the fruits of the spirit. Or is your version of Gods Word devoid of the fruit of the spirit? Be careful what you ask for Mike, you might actually have to change your mind and leave your broken cistern.

One thing, I have yet to disagree that we should have mastered PFAL. I see two issues with you Mike. Your assertion that people should master PFAL and your assertion that PFAL is now a replacement for the scriptures.

That Corps/Clergy who messed up your head years ago must have left some pretty serious scars, that's too bad, Mike. It must be rough living with an open wound for all of these years. How about it Mike? Are you going to give a clear, understandable response here or am I in for another round of assumptions, accusations and vile? I bet you cant do it.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

shaz,

You wrote: ?The "ancient fragments" are NOT at great variance. In fact, the overwhelming majority of the time, the text variations are simple disagreements in spelling or grammar. I think you are well-read enough to know that, so I think it is dishonest of you to portray the texts we have as badly flawed.?

I?m not sure what you mean by ?well-read? but I might caution you that ten world respected authors all giving their summation opinions on the texts is not the kind of authority I regard as the highest.

Here?s what I do read, in the footnotes of my interlinear are the variations between the modern critical Greek texts. These variations are NOT simple spelling, but some are additive and some are exclusionary for entire phrases at times. If these modern texts, which were all devised to smooth out the variations in the ancient fragments, have rich variations in themselves, what says this to the ancient? It says that they have MORE variations. Why bother to make the critical Greek texts if the variations were trivial?

On another point, what?s so simple about spelling variations? They can change the tense of a verb and all kinds of other critical things. When it comes to hamstringing Christianity?s power, the adversary can throw off certain critical words through mere spelling.

******

But that?s not all to the variations deal. There is a certain ?black hole? in our knowledge. It?s a gap between the originals and the earliest fragments. This gap has fuzzy edges, but it?s approximately 200 years. In that time we have only scant indirect evidence, like non-canonical authors quoting verses from their own very early texts.

From this ?black hole? period we do have evidence that a lot of scribes felt pretty free to change the texts to their likeing. We know from the Bible that all forsook Paul and his ministry to the Gentiles, and his ministry was in ruin. We know from Peter that his ministry was in disarray in the end because he his dying last words are that lots of people were screwing up on Paul?s epistles. Plus, from history we know the Diaspora happened around 70, so Peter?s ministry was lost. In addition to great spiritual darkness prrevailing within the Church descending at the beginning of this ?black hole? we also know there was a lot of persecution. These are the most non-ideal circumstances for making good copies.

We don?t know what got lost in this gap. There is no guarantee that God?s written Word will survive man?s abuse. The spiritual Word of God lives and abides forever, but it?s written form can suffer all kinds of abuses, and there?s no guarantee IF or WHEN God will restore that written Word.

In Jeremiah 36 it looks like God restored His destroyed written Words pretty quickly, and added many words in the process.

Also in Jeremiah, is the recovery of a lost scroll in the temple debris. Who knows how long it was lost.

God?s Word in the stars was pretty lost at the time of Babel, but later restored by God in a completely new format with Moses.

God?s Word was lost in the first century, and only portions have been recovered by traditional sense knowledge methods. If the written Word is lost ONLY God can recover it authoritatively. He did that with Dr?s ministry. All other previous attempts were fine, and useful in their time, but when God stepped in 1942, the whole game changed.

We don?t know what got lost in this gap. There are indications that Paul SPOKE a lot of things that didn?t get written. God?s work in Dr?s ministry fixes this uncertainty, and He added a lot more because of the change in our times. These things come from things Dr said in the years when few were listening closely, and none with spiritual ears.

*********

Now, after all that about textual variations, there?s still more that goes into the uncertainties that the existent ancient texts pose.

Suppose for a minute that we have the originals, and that somehow we know for sure they are the originals. Great! How many people speak Aramaic out there? And how well can we trust you, those of you who do know Aramaic, to translate for us? And your Aramaic teachers? And the entire academic field of ancient languages? How much or the devil?s influence reaches into the academic institutions of his world? How about a lot? How much power does the adversary have to bend and shape languages and cultures over the past 2000 years? A lot. He can bend and shape entire languages and cultures to render passages impotent of passing on the power.

Now un-supposed that we have the originals, but we have all the messing with the texts to add onto the adversary?s messing with language and culture. This introduces many uncertainties into the traditional approach to Biblical research. Without that 1942 promise behind him, there?s no way Dr could have plowed through all these uncertainties. God did it for him by revelation, AS he worked his 5-senses. Dr was the only one with that 1942 promise propelling him over the barricades.

What tradition has passed on to us was better than nothing, but subtly stripped of power. What God taught Dr and Dr taught us in writing is best.

************

You then wrote: ?You give a passing nod to the Masorah of the Old Testament, but I have never heard you do anything but dismiss the OT along with the NT as being too far removed from the originals to be credible.?

This has come up before. I believe that the OT was protected by lots of things. They didn?t have spirit so they NEEDED more help. The did have an entire culture built on the revelations to Moses. That culture was good at transmitting the texts to Jesus. The culture of the NT church and it written records was chaotic.

*********

You then wrote: ?And who is to say that the workmen who labored to make these critical Greek texts were not inspired by God??

I believe at times they WERE inspired to make the best moves. But not all, and not at all times. The variations amongst them says this. These people were subject to horrible limitations of the errors in their theologies. They HAD to be somewhat inspired to get it done as well as they did, but they also brought in many errors.

What?s different about Dr?s ministry is that finally God got someone to put all the pieces together that many had been working on for centuries. Dr was the first able to face the music when it came to defying cherished traditional errors, and to get it spread across the globe.

*********

You then wrote: ?You want to make the case that VPW was allowed by God to steal the words of other men to include in His work, but you deny that anyone working in the sixteenth century, or the nineteenth, could have the same benefit of divine intervention when handling Holy Writ.?

I TOTALLY deny it was theft.

I see it like God giving Abraham the Promised Land even though there were settlers on that land. God owns it all. God owns all intellectual rights to all truths written. He lets men play with it. I?m thankful many men worked to the best of their natural and supernatural abilities in preparing texts and passages so that when Dr came to them he learned, and improve them via God?s direction. People like Kenyon and Styles saved God and Dr a lot of work, and I see rewards there for them.

I do not see anyone who got it all put together accurately, besides Dr since the first century. All other prior successful efforts were partial and preparatory.

******

You then wrote: ?They were all church corrupt, according to you. None were able to rise above their denomination to feel responsible to God to handle His Word with honesty.?

No. Just like Dr, they themselves were mixtures of good and evil characteristics, and often they DID rise up to do certain jobs. Dr?s job was to restore the power by restoring the root Word we can master. Often they helped him do it, even the ones centuries before Dr?s time.

You then wrote: ?We Wayfers have more knowledge of the true Word of God than anyone else since Pentecost, according to you. How arrogant to claim that we know more than those who made it their life's work...?

It?s not arrogant at all for me to say it was all handed to me and I believe it is the best, so I adhere to it and urge others to do the same with confidence. That?s not arrogance at all. Now, if I said it?s ME that people should look to for the answers, THAT would be arrogant.

You then wrote: ?If we are to believe you, then the only credible scriptures are those quoted by Wierwille in his writings.?

No again. That?s NOT my position. First of all he does quote quite a lot in writing. Second, there was that 40 year period where Dr taught just about all the KJV, or encouraged reading it all. I got 27 years worth of reading my KJV, and I loved it all, even the passages Dr doesn?t teach. During those 27 years of massive KJV study, I neglected the more pure revelations in written form: the collaterals. This happened to us all, and that?s why Dr last words were to master PFAL like we HAD BEEN mastering KJV.

By coming back to PFAL mastering it we can be better balanced in approaching the spiritual understanding of the WHOLE of God?s Word.

[This message was edited by Mike on April 20, 2003 at 15:57.]

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Dizzydog,

After that long answer to shazdancer, I?m out of time to thoroughly go through all your most recent posts? details. Tomorrow?s another day. In the meantime I can give a short answer.

You wrote: ?How about one question Mike. What determines a persons mastery of PFAL? Give a simple answer to this question.?

By lot of reading WITH the attitude that it is the authoritative Word of God.

That?s the short answer. It?s elaborated on in other posts of mine. The time is coming soon when I?ll have one large file at my disposal to retrieve things like this for people.

************

As for your summation on Dr?s teachings. it was too vague to comment directly on. As you give me passages and page numbers, we can talk turkey, but I see no reason to regard your shootings from the hip as at all authoritative. I?ve seen HUGE differences between what people SAY Dr taught and what is actually on paper. Most people retain his verbal and private words more than his written. That needs to be reversed.

I was surprised you didn?t see all the posting I did of quotes from Dr.

These MASSIVE quotes of Dr?s I?ve posted here can be retrieved easily. His ENTIRE last teaching is posted, both in the magazine and original transcript forms, plus several other SNS tapes, and many book and magazine passages. So many that threads and a poll protested it. You?ve not seen even one tenth of what I?ve brought here yet.

These are the approximate thread names for some of the major threads where these things can be found:

Dr?s Last Teaching: Lost for 17 Years

Innies and Outies: All men are Liars

News Flash For Older Grads - Dr Tried to Warn Us

News Flash! LCM Never Installed As Spiritual Leader

Link to comment
Share on other sites

All translators and "versionators" from the first century up until Wierwille are suspect. Not necessarily wrong, but we can't trust them.

I agree with that, Mike. Why should we trust that some guy with a Roman Catholic axe to grind would make accurate translations? Just because a guy was killed for making an English translation of the bible, that doesn't make him right. And even if we did have an original, and knew it was an original, how would we be able to tust the modern-day Aramaic translators? What a quandry.

Yet, with all this skepticism about accuracy going on, somehow we're supposed to trust that Vic Wierwille was able to receive revelation from God and accurately pass it on to us.

Yup, with all the clear evidence of plagarism and shoddy scholarship, this is the ONE GUY in TWO THOUSAND YEARS OF HISTORYto get it right.

Hard to believe

Oakspear icon_cool.gif

"We...know how cruel the truth often is, and we wonder whether delusion is not more consoling"

Henri Poincare

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Page 3-4 of the Advanced Class Syllabus:

GOD?S IMMUTABLE WORD

Acts 8:35

Then Phillip opened his mouth , and began at the same scripture, and preached unto him Jesus.

Acts 17:11

These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so.

TRADITION VERSUS TRUTH. Everything is judged in the light of the integrity and accuracy of God?s Word. Tradition may transgress the Word of God. The Word speaks more loudly than anyone could speak on its behalf. Whenever and wherever the Word speaks in any category, it is always true.

DARE TO BELIEVE - GO TO THE FOUNTAINHEAD OF TRUTH

Circumstances will alter situations. But circumstances will never alter the Word.

Compare Matthew 10:5,6 with Acts 13:46, 47; 14:27

Compare Luke 9:2,3 with Luke 22:35,36

Compare Romans 8:38, 39 with Romans 11:13,22

Page 4

BE WORD CONDITIONED

THE GREATEST SECRET IN THE WORLD TODAY IS THAT THE BIBLE IS THE REVEALED WORD AND WILL OF GOD.

John 10:10

Jesus Christ always represented God, and he represented the truth of God?s Word.

TRUTH NEEDS NO DEFENSE

Page 1 of the foundational sections of the advanced class syllabus.

THE WORD OF GOD IS THE WILL OF GOD

John 10:10b

THE GREATEST SECRET IN THE WORLD

THE BIBLE IS THE REVEALED WORD AND

WILL OF GOD

POWER FOR ABUNDANT LIVING IS A CLASS ON KEYS

(This is a direct contradiction of what you just wrote Mike)

Page 2

The Word means what it says and says what it means.

(He has already declared that the Bible IS the revealed word and will of God. This does not look too fragmented to me.)

Page 6

THE GOD BREATHED WORD

The Bible as the Word of God is God-breathed

2 Timothy 3:16

Page 10

Spiritual weakness and inability can be due only to improper spiritual food or neglect of the Word of God. The neglect can be accounted for by the fact that the BIBLE is not understood. The improper use can be attributed to wrongly dividing the Word of God. Failing to understand the Word, we neglect its reading and thus succumb to the doctrines and theories of men, and are blown about with every wind of doctrine and sect. Most men are held spellbound by the fleeting shadows of a few great names rather than the Word. Too many of us believe what we receive from man, and we endeavor to have our beliefs confirmed by certain selected texts from the Bible.

_______________________________

Is this too vague for you Mike?

I can hardly wait to see the next response.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

And how about one more:

Page 11 -

1. Christ is the living Word, the written Word, the preached Word. Acts 17:1-3

2 Our attitude toward the Word is the key to our spirituality.

a. The Bible is the Living Word in action.

1. More than a common book. Man does not trust his own words so he reads his distrust of his words into the Word of God.

2. We have failed to walk into deliverance because the Word is not real to us.

3. We are spiritual hitchhikers and cripples until we know the Word and act. James 1:22. Some stay in this condition so long that they think God is wrong and they are right. Many would rather read and study the literature of the hour than the literature of eternity, for the word of man has preeminence over the Word of God.

___________

VPW frequently included himself and his writings when detailing this point. Or do I have to substantiate this also?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

This is in no way my total response, in that I must leave soon. You seem to have the impression that your KJV is the Word of God. It's not; it's only an approximate tool.

You also seem to have the impression that because PFAL is a class on keys, that that's the ONLY thing it can be. I see it as a God-breathed KJV aid. It teaches the keys authoritatively.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

but wait, dd, there's more... with your decoder ring you will see that vp really meant yada, yada, yada.

Mike: the cattle on a 1000 hills are God the Father's; it's not theft to help myself, eh????

Face it, Mike--your rationalizations for victor's intellectual dishonesty do not wash. Period. Close.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

 Share

×
×
  • Create New...