"Hurting another's chances to hear the Word because we have a private beef with God's messenger is a pretty arrogant position."
*****
Mike,
What a shamelessly hypocritical freak you are!
You have undercut English Bible versions, biblical texts and the doctrinal sufficiency of Scripture, in favor of the self-fondling of your own sense of importance and the promotion of irrationally grandiose presuppositions about RV-lizard and false teacher V. P. Wierwille.
I did consider a rough equivalent of your point of view DEEPLY on many occasions, starting in 1978. I had looked into these things much earlier than most other grads, ten years before the first major meltdown in the late 80?s. From what I have observed, I?ve considered more points of view and scenario permutations than most of you here. I?ve looked at all sides. I?ve looked both in the Word and in the ministry situations.
Ten years before John S did the ?Adultery? paper I went through, as a twig leader with my twig, everything we could find in KJV and Youngs on the subject, just like the main body of text in that famous adultery paper. In addition to that, my twig dealt with 10 of the 14 subjects that appeared as ?appendixes? to the adultery paper.
THEN I had ten years to sit on it all and integrate it into the Word is was still learning from my KJV before the stuff hit the fan with the adultery paper in ?87-88. It still hit me like a ton of bricks when it came out, not for it?s doctrinal content (that was old hat to me by then) but for it?s indicative nature. It (paper and cover-up) indicated just how spiritually mature everyone wasn?t in ALL of upper leadership one and two years after Dr's death.
I accepted the Word Dr taught me from PFAL and in which I found verification from working my KJV in the good old days.
I now accept the Word of God that has been freshly revealed to me in the PFAL writings.
i didn't mean to sound condescending in my last post. when i re-read it, it kinda sounds that way
i could give a flying gaylord about schoenheit's paper (sorry john) but that all was so obvious. the only thing that made it good was the reaction to it perhaps, and i say "perhaps"
come on........ after that, john and john and mark went on to do another weird thing
the obvious bible stuff bores me. when you start talking about what really affected the soul of a person, you might get my attention
adultery was the least of my worries heartache what-have-you
Here?s a soul affecting situation. I used to often think about this, LONG before the meltdowns.
Imagine in Acts the reactions believers must have had to wrestle with regarding the Epistles of Paul. In some cities there were quite a lot of people who were directly persecuted by him, or who had a close relative persecuted or even killed by Paul and/or one of Paul?s assistants, or who had a friend or neighbor who had run-ins with Paul.
Imagine the wrestling they would have to go through when the early Epistles came out as to whether to regard them as God-breathed or not, like the Thessalonians did (I Thess.2:13).
Imagine how this wrestling in their minds would tip against Paul as the later Epistles are written while he?s IN JAIL! It would look like Paul was out of fellowship or not believing or something.
I used to think through these dilemmas that MUST have really happened!
Similar dilemmas occurred for relatives of Uriah and Bathseba. I imagine it would be tough for them to hang framed Psalms on their walls.
So, Exy, I?ve put myself in your shoes a lot, long before I ever read your posts here.
That?s why I say there?s ample reward for those who take friendly fire on the chin.
************
I?ve heard an urban legend that seems to make sense.
If an Army Sergeant abruptly wakes up a recruit, and the recruit slugs the Sergeant one time while waking up, that Sergeant MUST ?take it on the chin? and no punishment can be dealt to the recruit for their understandable lashing out under those conditions. The legend goes that this is written up in black and white in Army regulations.
Regardless if the legend is fact or not, it seems like a good regulation to me.
Exy, as you?re waking up to the GREAT difference between Dr?s flesh and the writings God helped him do, I will ?take it on the chin? any mopping the floor you have to do with me. I understand.
But it?s TIME!
It?s TIME for us ALL to wake up.
Rise and SHINE in the crisp clear morning air, with the greatness of The Word of God.
This seems the only the way blessings flow in Mike world.
Read em and weep.
The more you write, the clearer it becomes to me that your nebuluous world-shaking message is just a rehash of Elihu's "ministry" to Job.
The character of your message seems the same.
But its empty.
And Elihu did not know it either.
So he made the ultimate sacrifice of having to be the one who acts like a pr1ck and gives everyone an evaluation and remedy of his own device.
Do you understand the book of Job?
(I mean, from outside yer canon of anecdotal VPW ponderings)
Then you should follow your God-given insincts and bail on this thread before it gets really bad. Go back to your "mountain" and reconsider EVERYTHING about your faith before it puts you on a street corner with a placard on yer back.
Smash yer faith to bits, and see what can't be smashed.
Boil it to see what can't be boiled.
Put the torch to it and give God the smoke.
He likes the smell of sacrifice.
In fact, I think everyone should do this regularly.
Keeps us from getting trapped in mental tombs of our own making.
Cold, hard, concrete.
What are you afraid of?
Losing face?
I doubt it.
Cept maybe with God.
But that shouldn't bother anyone.
In a month or so, you'll feel right as rain.
Like hurting after losing a girlfriend.
You get over it.
Life goes on.
God'll use the shards to make new pots, yet again.
According to your last illustration re: the private who breaks regulations in smacking the sarge upside the head, yet the sarge covers for him in order that the private can "Be an Army of One", you now liken yourself to that big-hearted sarge and Ex to that private who has broken regulations by her justified chastisement of you in your whitewashing of VPW's abuses towards Excathedra and many other women. Like you are nobly covering for her lest she gets hauled before God's 'board of military regulations' for commiting such a transgression.
You are indeed one sick, self-delusional and grandoise arrogant scum to:
1) think that Excathedra is commiting an act against God and His Word by rightfully trashing a minister who betrayed her so blatently.
2) Offering yourself as a vicarious 'sacrifice' of sorts to cover for her so that she doesn't have to 'pay the price' for such a 'transgression'.
3) Then turn right around and say "Well, I'm only going to do it *this* time, as long as you come meekly back to PFAL as per the Doctor's instructions".
If this is what your god (notice the small 'g' there) is like, then only a drug-induced, brain damaged imbecile would be insane enough to worship him/it.
Fortunately, I pretty much know that Ex is way too smart for that. :)--> And this isn't the only 'urban legend' you are mindlessly goosestepping to. Not by a long shot.
Get some professional help, guy. For God's sake as well as yours!
I liked this which you wrote: ?Smash yer faith to bits, and see what can't be smashed.
Boil it to see what can't be boiled.?
This reminds me of Pawtucket?s Principle. It sounds very similar.
Many great men have said similar things.
In the last magazine article he was to write, Dr says MUCH the same thing.
When Dr wrote "Jesus Christ Is Not God" he hit right on target a massive error the adversary wove into the fabric of Christianity. Dr took this error on directly, and ignored the huge resistance the tradition lovers put up. And, this is not the only tradition he directly challenged.
Then there are other traditional doctrines that Dr somewhat indirectly confronted, while making available the tools we would need to take them on directly ourselves. The time has come for one such tradition to be examined, and decisions must be made to either confront it or remain conformed to it. It?s the tradition of where we go to get the best rendering of the ancient Scriptures. This has been a main topic of my message.
In some of Dr?s last writings to us, which appeared in the Way Magazine Jul/Aug?86 issue, he encouraged us to ask ourselves questions of ourselves like this mentioned by Sirguessalot and earlier of Pawtucket.
Actually, in that last magazine issue, he asked us TWICE to do these self examinations.
A man?s dying last words are usually treated with extra care and respect in nearly every culture on earth. The fact that this same encouragement occurred twice gives it even more special status. It?s time we look at some of these last words our beloved father in the Word wrote to us.
In that magazine?s main article, ?Our Only Rule for Faith and Practice,? on page 17 he writes this:
?You have to honestly come to the place that you?re willing
to keep asking yourself, ?Where did I learn what I believe?
How did I get to the place of believing what I believe today??
For the most part, men believe what they have received from
tradition and not directly from reading the Word of God.
Many times the Biblical truths have been completely dis-
placed by man-fabricated teachings. What you have previ-
ously believed may not stand the test of God?s Word when it
is rightly divided. Therefore, you must not only be content to
give up tradition and wrong teaching, you must be thankful
to give it up?happy to give it up?and receive, instead of
man?s tradition, instead of man?s imagination, the true divine
revelation of God?s Word.?
Let?s look at some of the details here. In an overall sense, it?s interesting that he would be saying this to us grads of the class. We might think that, having taken that class many times, we already DID do all this that Dr is encouraging us to do in that passage.
Maybe he?s not talking to us grads? But a quick look at the magazine article?s context shows this IS written to us grads. Plus, look how personal it is: count the number of times ?you? and ?I? appear. There are two short third person sentences, but the rest is personal and in the second person.
Then look at these words in the first sentence: ?...willing to KEEP asking yourself...? Before we knew the accuracy of the Word we asked ourselves this often, but now he?s asking us to KEEP asking this! Why? He answers this with ?What you have previously believed may not stand the test...?
From this, and many other things Dr said and wrote in his last years, I have come to the conclusion that there is more in PFAL than we received. We all TOOK the class, but did we RECEIVE it all? Did we receive it all correctly? Do we remember it all? Maybe some of our POST-PFAL beliefs need a tune up.
Here?s the second place in the same magazine issue where Dr URGES us to think everything through. It?s on page 12:
?We have to honestly come to the place of asking ourselves:
Where did I learn this? How did I get to the place of believ-
ing this? Who taught me this? The counterfeit is so much
like the genuine, you have to know the accuracy of the Word
to separate truth from error.?
************
In another set of Dr?s last words to us, his last taped public teaching titled ?The Joy of Serving,? he again issued some interesting comments TWICE to us in that same short, last teaching. It is posted here on this website.
In those twice spoken last words Dr told us that we had a need. He said we need to MASTER the written materials of PFAL. Our beliefs were not EXACTLY lined up with what God taught Dr and Dr taught us in that class and they needed to be corrected. This teaching was primarily addressed to leadership, as it?s opening plainly states.
It was presumed by most that the leadership already HAD mastered PFAL, but according to Dr, it wasn?t enough. Plus, for many of us, our focus on PFAL had been quite a few years prior to this last teaching. By the time of this 1985 teaching enough years had passed for out first exposure to start leaking out or getting mixed with incoming error. Additionally, some PFAL material may have never reached us, or not accurately.
Well, that was almost twenty years ago. What has happened since Dr spoke that last teaching is tragic. First the teaching was LOST! It got lost in the shuffle of all that went on shortly after Dr?s death, and has only resurfaced in the last few years. During the intervening time, the PFAL class materials that we were told to master have been put aside instead of being mastered. Most grads have moved on to some other teaching having never heard Dr?s last/lost teaching.
So, this last spoken teaching, and these last quoted printed words all line up to say something in unison: we may still have crippling tradition hindering our walk with our Father! We?ve got some work to do!
So, Sirguessalot, there?s a lot of smashing going on here, and a lot of intact books that seem to have survived the throw to the floor and have a bounce of liveliness to them.
Should we rename it Sirpawtuckalot?s Principle?
[This message was edited by Mike on June 15, 2003 at 17:17.]
Mike you are one cold sob.... dismissing the damage wrought as now *essentially nothing* just shows how heartless you really are.
The soul altering, life destroying actions that not satan...but vp PERSONALLY by his own decision...intentionally inflicted on THOUSANDS held a whole hell of a lot more consequence than that...
That you refuse to acknowledge more than*ten* and the destruction wrought personally (much less the damage those that he taught to follow in his footsteps) this monster wrought....shows just how far out of touch you really are....
Even were it so.....had it ONLY been one....yeah, just ONE FRICKEN PERSON destroyed, you cold bastard....God would have considered it TOO DAMN MUCH...
Their destruction wasn`t wrought because of a spiritual* war ...they weren`t acceptable casualties from an intensly fought battle....they didn`t *take it on the chin* for God...you decieved turd....they were men and women who TRUSTED vpw when he said that he could show thwm the answeres they needed for all of lifes questions.... and then were raped when they entrusted vp with their spiritual lives.
Vp did it, vp alone....he was the one that believed that he was entitled to anything ANYTHING he wanted from folks...and eagerly participated in the dismanteling of their souls.
Gawd DAMN you Mike...do you remember NOTHING about the teachings of the efforts made on behalf of the *one sheep*...The effort made by the shepherd on the behalf saving any of one individual sheep....We are EACH priority to God.
You don`t DESERVE to talk to excathedra nicey nicey like you are some sort of comerade in arms you piece of sh!t....you don`t deserve to wipe her shoes after the way you have been spitting on her by dismissing the horrors she and others endured by the betrayal of that maggot wierwille.... as now *essentially nothing*
Sorry ex, none of my business but this idolotrous, cluless, ignorant, eyes covered with scales, promotor of that child of hell is on my last nerve....
VP HIMSELF betrayed the trust he was given from God...
VP HIMSELF betrayed the trust we placed in him as a minister..
VP HIMSELF manipulated people with the bible winning their trust and then dove right in and took what was never his....
He was an EVIL man after the flesh... it was never about a spiritual *battle* The whole twi experience was seduction and rape *spiritually* by a slimey man who used the name of God and some bible teachings to masquerade behind and dissarm his victims....
You talk nice Mike, probably got folks thinkin you are an *alright* guy because you can quote scripture and claim to want to *save us* from ourselves...but what you are doing is evil....do you KNOW that you are working for darkness? Or have you managed to decieved yourself as well?
Its the fact that you think you are the only one who presently sees the master better than anyone else.
This should be very telling to you.
And this is my point.
It places you in #4 in that:
heirachy of wisdom
heirarchy of knowing
hierarchy of capability
heierachy of blessings
hierarchy of present in-your-face here-and-now relevence.
IS YOUR MESSAGE REALLY THE MOST RELEVANT MESSAGE ON THE PLANET RIGHT NOW?
(message being: come back to PFAL like ME, and see what only I have seen. It is the most pure and profound and healing thing ANYWHERE!)
That puts YOU, personally, #4 in the very heirarchy of light and sound, my friend.
Until the OLGs join your revival and become fellow #4s. (of course, you'll always be the first to have attain the world's ultimate stage of enlightenment in this generation, yada yada.)
Are you now some sort of Buddha then?
An awakened one.
Soon to be ascended being?
(deep, resounding Moses like voice from a UFO or something)
"People of earth. Come to me. For I will show you VP. And he will show you Christ, who will show you God."
You claim to be the only one who:
is even looking at the master
can see the master
have seen the master
will see the master "unless you also look thru VPW
who is the only one who saw the master through Christ, but is now dead."
---
Mike,
How many ways to God are there?
One, right?
How many ways to Christ are there?
Just one?
This is a question you can't seem to wrap your mind around.
Its not a matter of experience, education, believing, and hound-dogging the sweet scent of truth and love that brings you to God. That's what brings you to Christ.
And face it, my friend.
We all start the hunt from different places in this world.
There are many ways to Chicago if God is not Chicago, but Christ is.
quote: And it a protest on MY part! I'm CONTINUALLY trying to get the attention off me and onto and into the books.
Count me OUT!
I'm a student.
I've seen the Master.
Who you kidding?
"It's not about me, it's not about me..."
It is about you.
Its about you claiming to the be THE greatest student of God since VPW, since Paul.
And that no living person has seen the master like you have.
Or, the only one that remembers seeing the master.
Or, the one who sees him better than every-freaking everybody else on the whole friggin world since VPW! Who was the one who saw the master.
You, and only you see God thru Christ thru VPW.
That is not the only view, just the only goggles yer wearing right now, and you've surgically implanted it on your third eyeball.
Let me ask you these:
Has God set a limit as to how many ways one can get to Christ?
Has God set a limit on how many disfunctional fathers start their disfunctional churchs in this disfunctional world?
Is there anything made by God that can't be remade if man undoes it?
Mike,
You are not ascended.
Cuz we can all still see you.
----
But...if you have came here to sacrifice yourself as a fool, so we can all see the craziness of TWI and PFAL and VPW much better, then hats off to you. You have done well. Because, by far, you have helped make this exway trip at the GSC continue to be more rewarding and enlightening and enriching than the first one.
But i doubt that this is your intention.
Regardless,
I am glad to know ya.
Even if yer writing reminds me of a crazy little hermit-troll who storms into a village and spouts off wierd riddles, divine secrets, mysteries, and calculations with a strange new jargon, offending just about everyone somehow.
Just wake up before you melt-down, my friend.
Or before you are completely buried in a pile of rocks.
Either way, may i have permission to write you in as that troll in my current fiction project?
;)-->
Todd
[This message was edited by sirguessalot on June 15, 2003 at 17:51.]
Easy, fortunate one...Mike here claims that vpw wrote for God and that his material is the *replacement* for a bible that is too worn out and outdated to be of much use to us in this day....
There for, any evil vpw personally wrought was acceptable is of no actual consequence... his *succumbing to old man nature* was just a casualty from the intense spirituual pressures he endured in the battle...cause he was the man Gawd chose don`tcha kmow...
My contention is .... that after reading Galations....and the attributes of a man after the flesh verses a man after the spirit....that vp manifested the characteristics of a man after the flesh... which gal says means he has NO inheritance in the kingdome of God...
I do not believe God entrusted his *new and improved* bible to a man after the flesh...
Sure vp had some good teachings he borrowed from men who DID walk after the spirit...THATS why he was able to disarm and decieve so many...
The choice? vpw man after the flesh...or man after the spirit? read galations and decide....I believe that it is quite clear...
I'm sorry. I mistated my intentions. Actually Mike, its NOT you in the book, its a character study. Its a troll. Lives under a bridge, ya know? Bad table manners. Bad breath. Warts. Eats children. But one that farts angelic music. Thinks his beauty is God's gift to the villagers.
Look what you made me do sirguessalot. My 1000th post and I blew it on guytalk with you! I could have said something SIGNIFICANT! I kuda been a contenda!
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Yanagisawa
Did you say "get the ball rolling" or get the kaballa rolling...for it sounds like that's your current freak - some sort of hidden, mystical kaballa-esque gnostic esotericism. I'm fascinated with you
Cynic
Mike wrote,
"Hurting another's chances to hear the Word because we have a private beef with God's messenger is a pretty arrogant position."
*****
Mike,
What a shamelessly hypocritical freak you are!
You have undercut English Bible versions, biblical texts and the doctrinal sufficiency of Scripture, in favor of the self-fondling of your own sense of importance and the promotion of irrationally grandiose presuppositions about RV-lizard and false teacher V. P. Wierwille.
You have rejected the Word.
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excathedra
cynic, i missed that part in his post to me
anyway, i have a difficult time fighting.... logic wise or anyother wise, i think that's why wierwille liked me so much
mike, part of me would love to wipe the frikkin floor with you (my dark side lol)
but the real me isn't up for it
[This message was edited by excathedra on June 15, 2003 at 15:00.]
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Mike
Cynic,
No, I have not rejected God's Word.
I have rejected YOUR point of view.
I did consider a rough equivalent of your point of view DEEPLY on many occasions, starting in 1978. I had looked into these things much earlier than most other grads, ten years before the first major meltdown in the late 80?s. From what I have observed, I?ve considered more points of view and scenario permutations than most of you here. I?ve looked at all sides. I?ve looked both in the Word and in the ministry situations.
Ten years before John S did the ?Adultery? paper I went through, as a twig leader with my twig, everything we could find in KJV and Youngs on the subject, just like the main body of text in that famous adultery paper. In addition to that, my twig dealt with 10 of the 14 subjects that appeared as ?appendixes? to the adultery paper.
THEN I had ten years to sit on it all and integrate it into the Word is was still learning from my KJV before the stuff hit the fan with the adultery paper in ?87-88. It still hit me like a ton of bricks when it came out, not for it?s doctrinal content (that was old hat to me by then) but for it?s indicative nature. It (paper and cover-up) indicated just how spiritually mature everyone wasn?t in ALL of upper leadership one and two years after Dr's death.
I accepted the Word Dr taught me from PFAL and in which I found verification from working my KJV in the good old days.
I now accept the Word of God that has been freshly revealed to me in the PFAL writings.
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excathedra
i didn't mean to sound condescending in my last post. when i re-read it, it kinda sounds that way
i could give a flying gaylord about schoenheit's paper (sorry john) but that all was so obvious. the only thing that made it good was the reaction to it perhaps, and i say "perhaps"
come on........ after that, john and john and mark went on to do another weird thing
the obvious bible stuff bores me. when you start talking about what really affected the soul of a person, you might get my attention
adultery was the least of my worries heartache what-have-you
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Mike
Exy,
I?ve bled my heart out to you on these things. There IS justice and reward and compensation FOR YOU in all this.
I could go back and find the posts I think would calm you down if you read them carefully.
I do NOT want to antagonize you or anyone else.
I myself have found healing and the ability to forgive in the PFAL writings, not in my memories of VP.
He knew the writings were bigger than him, and when we figure that out too, we?ll all feel a lot better.
Again, my heart goes out to you, but your situation does not negate the good news I have to deliver.
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excathedra
mike
you have just said EXACTLY what wierwille said to me
ps. mike, i'm calm
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Mike
All right, I'll avoid that expression for your sake.
But you WILL find perfect justice from God.
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Mike
Exy,
Here?s a soul affecting situation. I used to often think about this, LONG before the meltdowns.
Imagine in Acts the reactions believers must have had to wrestle with regarding the Epistles of Paul. In some cities there were quite a lot of people who were directly persecuted by him, or who had a close relative persecuted or even killed by Paul and/or one of Paul?s assistants, or who had a friend or neighbor who had run-ins with Paul.
Imagine the wrestling they would have to go through when the early Epistles came out as to whether to regard them as God-breathed or not, like the Thessalonians did (I Thess.2:13).
Imagine how this wrestling in their minds would tip against Paul as the later Epistles are written while he?s IN JAIL! It would look like Paul was out of fellowship or not believing or something.
I used to think through these dilemmas that MUST have really happened!
Similar dilemmas occurred for relatives of Uriah and Bathseba. I imagine it would be tough for them to hang framed Psalms on their walls.
So, Exy, I?ve put myself in your shoes a lot, long before I ever read your posts here.
That?s why I say there?s ample reward for those who take friendly fire on the chin.
************
I?ve heard an urban legend that seems to make sense.
If an Army Sergeant abruptly wakes up a recruit, and the recruit slugs the Sergeant one time while waking up, that Sergeant MUST ?take it on the chin? and no punishment can be dealt to the recruit for their understandable lashing out under those conditions. The legend goes that this is written up in black and white in Army regulations.
Regardless if the legend is fact or not, it seems like a good regulation to me.
Exy, as you?re waking up to the GREAT difference between Dr?s flesh and the writings God helped him do, I will ?take it on the chin? any mopping the floor you have to do with me. I understand.
But it?s TIME!
It?s TIME for us ALL to wake up.
Rise and SHINE in the crisp clear morning air, with the greatness of The Word of God.
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Mike
Exy,
It's been fun using the board like a chat room.
I'm thankful that we can still talk.
I need to go to work for a while.
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sirguessalot
Mike,
Heerz the hierchy of your pantheon.
God
Jesus
VPW
You
us
This seems the only the way blessings flow in Mike world.
Read em and weep.
The more you write, the clearer it becomes to me that your nebuluous world-shaking message is just a rehash of Elihu's "ministry" to Job.
The character of your message seems the same.
But its empty.
And Elihu did not know it either.
So he made the ultimate sacrifice of having to be the one who acts like a pr1ck and gives everyone an evaluation and remedy of his own device.
Do you understand the book of Job?
(I mean, from outside yer canon of anecdotal VPW ponderings)
Then you should follow your God-given insincts and bail on this thread before it gets really bad. Go back to your "mountain" and reconsider EVERYTHING about your faith before it puts you on a street corner with a placard on yer back.
Smash yer faith to bits, and see what can't be smashed.
Boil it to see what can't be boiled.
Put the torch to it and give God the smoke.
He likes the smell of sacrifice.
In fact, I think everyone should do this regularly.
Keeps us from getting trapped in mental tombs of our own making.
Cold, hard, concrete.
What are you afraid of?
Losing face?
I doubt it.
Cept maybe with God.
But that shouldn't bother anyone.
In a month or so, you'll feel right as rain.
Like hurting after losing a girlfriend.
You get over it.
Life goes on.
God'll use the shards to make new pots, yet again.
Get used to it.
I honestly hope you check out for awhile.
For your sake and ours.
Your friend,
Todd
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GarthP2000
Generalissimo Smikeol,
According to your last illustration re: the private who breaks regulations in smacking the sarge upside the head, yet the sarge covers for him in order that the private can "Be an Army of One", you now liken yourself to that big-hearted sarge and Ex to that private who has broken regulations by her justified chastisement of you in your whitewashing of VPW's abuses towards Excathedra and many other women. Like you are nobly covering for her lest she gets hauled before God's 'board of military regulations' for commiting such a transgression.
You are indeed one sick, self-delusional and grandoise arrogant scum to:
1) think that Excathedra is commiting an act against God and His Word by rightfully trashing a minister who betrayed her so blatently.
2) Offering yourself as a vicarious 'sacrifice' of sorts to cover for her so that she doesn't have to 'pay the price' for such a 'transgression'.
3) Then turn right around and say "Well, I'm only going to do it *this* time, as long as you come meekly back to PFAL as per the Doctor's instructions".
If this is what your god (notice the small 'g' there) is like, then only a drug-induced, brain damaged imbecile would be insane enough to worship him/it.
Fortunately, I pretty much know that Ex is way too smart for that.
:)--> And this isn't the only 'urban legend' you are mindlessly goosestepping to. Not by a long shot.
Get some professional help, guy. For God's sake as well as yours!
Prophet Emeritus of THE,
and Wandering CyberUU Hippie,
Garth P.
www.gapstudioweb.com
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Mike
Oh Garth!
Lighten UP!
It was just a principle, not an EXACT fit analogy.
[This message was edited by Mike on June 15, 2003 at 16:40.]
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Mike
Hi. I came back just in case Exy still wanted to talk. Besides it's too late to work, and I have fellowship in a couple hours.
*************
Sirguessalot,
The only "ME" in that hierarchy is by protest.
And it a protest on MY part! I'm CONTINUALLY trying to get the attention off me and onto and into the books.
Count me OUT!
I'm a student.
I've seen the Master.
Come and see for yourselves.
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Mike
Sirguessalot,
I liked this which you wrote: ?Smash yer faith to bits, and see what can't be smashed.
Boil it to see what can't be boiled.?
This reminds me of Pawtucket?s Principle. It sounds very similar.
Many great men have said similar things.
In the last magazine article he was to write, Dr says MUCH the same thing.
When Dr wrote "Jesus Christ Is Not God" he hit right on target a massive error the adversary wove into the fabric of Christianity. Dr took this error on directly, and ignored the huge resistance the tradition lovers put up. And, this is not the only tradition he directly challenged.
Then there are other traditional doctrines that Dr somewhat indirectly confronted, while making available the tools we would need to take them on directly ourselves. The time has come for one such tradition to be examined, and decisions must be made to either confront it or remain conformed to it. It?s the tradition of where we go to get the best rendering of the ancient Scriptures. This has been a main topic of my message.
In some of Dr?s last writings to us, which appeared in the Way Magazine Jul/Aug?86 issue, he encouraged us to ask ourselves questions of ourselves like this mentioned by Sirguessalot and earlier of Pawtucket.
Actually, in that last magazine issue, he asked us TWICE to do these self examinations.
A man?s dying last words are usually treated with extra care and respect in nearly every culture on earth. The fact that this same encouragement occurred twice gives it even more special status. It?s time we look at some of these last words our beloved father in the Word wrote to us.
In that magazine?s main article, ?Our Only Rule for Faith and Practice,? on page 17 he writes this:
?You have to honestly come to the place that you?re willing
to keep asking yourself, ?Where did I learn what I believe?
How did I get to the place of believing what I believe today??
For the most part, men believe what they have received from
tradition and not directly from reading the Word of God.
Many times the Biblical truths have been completely dis-
placed by man-fabricated teachings. What you have previ-
ously believed may not stand the test of God?s Word when it
is rightly divided. Therefore, you must not only be content to
give up tradition and wrong teaching, you must be thankful
to give it up?happy to give it up?and receive, instead of
man?s tradition, instead of man?s imagination, the true divine
revelation of God?s Word.?
Let?s look at some of the details here. In an overall sense, it?s interesting that he would be saying this to us grads of the class. We might think that, having taken that class many times, we already DID do all this that Dr is encouraging us to do in that passage.
Maybe he?s not talking to us grads? But a quick look at the magazine article?s context shows this IS written to us grads. Plus, look how personal it is: count the number of times ?you? and ?I? appear. There are two short third person sentences, but the rest is personal and in the second person.
Then look at these words in the first sentence: ?...willing to KEEP asking yourself...? Before we knew the accuracy of the Word we asked ourselves this often, but now he?s asking us to KEEP asking this! Why? He answers this with ?What you have previously believed may not stand the test...?
From this, and many other things Dr said and wrote in his last years, I have come to the conclusion that there is more in PFAL than we received. We all TOOK the class, but did we RECEIVE it all? Did we receive it all correctly? Do we remember it all? Maybe some of our POST-PFAL beliefs need a tune up.
Here?s the second place in the same magazine issue where Dr URGES us to think everything through. It?s on page 12:
?We have to honestly come to the place of asking ourselves:
Where did I learn this? How did I get to the place of believ-
ing this? Who taught me this? The counterfeit is so much
like the genuine, you have to know the accuracy of the Word
to separate truth from error.?
************
In another set of Dr?s last words to us, his last taped public teaching titled ?The Joy of Serving,? he again issued some interesting comments TWICE to us in that same short, last teaching. It is posted here on this website.
In those twice spoken last words Dr told us that we had a need. He said we need to MASTER the written materials of PFAL. Our beliefs were not EXACTLY lined up with what God taught Dr and Dr taught us in that class and they needed to be corrected. This teaching was primarily addressed to leadership, as it?s opening plainly states.
It was presumed by most that the leadership already HAD mastered PFAL, but according to Dr, it wasn?t enough. Plus, for many of us, our focus on PFAL had been quite a few years prior to this last teaching. By the time of this 1985 teaching enough years had passed for out first exposure to start leaking out or getting mixed with incoming error. Additionally, some PFAL material may have never reached us, or not accurately.
Well, that was almost twenty years ago. What has happened since Dr spoke that last teaching is tragic. First the teaching was LOST! It got lost in the shuffle of all that went on shortly after Dr?s death, and has only resurfaced in the last few years. During the intervening time, the PFAL class materials that we were told to master have been put aside instead of being mastered. Most grads have moved on to some other teaching having never heard Dr?s last/lost teaching.
So, this last spoken teaching, and these last quoted printed words all line up to say something in unison: we may still have crippling tradition hindering our walk with our Father! We?ve got some work to do!
So, Sirguessalot, there?s a lot of smashing going on here, and a lot of intact books that seem to have survived the throw to the floor and have a bounce of liveliness to them.
Should we rename it Sirpawtuckalot?s Principle?
[This message was edited by Mike on June 15, 2003 at 17:17.]
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fortunateone
Hi everybody
Anyone care to write a brief statement to explain this thread for a newcomer who is too lazy to read it all to find out?
23 pages is amazing as a Wierwille legacy.
FORTUNATEONE to be out of TWI
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rascal
Mike you are one cold sob.... dismissing the damage wrought as now *essentially nothing* just shows how heartless you really are.
The soul altering, life destroying actions that not satan...but vp PERSONALLY by his own decision...intentionally inflicted on THOUSANDS held a whole hell of a lot more consequence than that...
That you refuse to acknowledge more than*ten* and the destruction wrought personally (much less the damage those that he taught to follow in his footsteps) this monster wrought....shows just how far out of touch you really are....
Even were it so.....had it ONLY been one....yeah, just ONE FRICKEN PERSON destroyed, you cold bastard....God would have considered it TOO DAMN MUCH...
Their destruction wasn`t wrought because of a spiritual* war ...they weren`t acceptable casualties from an intensly fought battle....they didn`t *take it on the chin* for God...you decieved turd....they were men and women who TRUSTED vpw when he said that he could show thwm the answeres they needed for all of lifes questions.... and then were raped when they entrusted vp with their spiritual lives.
Vp did it, vp alone....he was the one that believed that he was entitled to anything ANYTHING he wanted from folks...and eagerly participated in the dismanteling of their souls.
Gawd DAMN you Mike...do you remember NOTHING about the teachings of the efforts made on behalf of the *one sheep*...The effort made by the shepherd on the behalf saving any of one individual sheep....We are EACH priority to God.
You don`t DESERVE to talk to excathedra nicey nicey like you are some sort of comerade in arms you piece of sh!t....you don`t deserve to wipe her shoes after the way you have been spitting on her by dismissing the horrors she and others endured by the betrayal of that maggot wierwille.... as now *essentially nothing*
Sorry ex, none of my business but this idolotrous, cluless, ignorant, eyes covered with scales, promotor of that child of hell is on my last nerve....
VP HIMSELF betrayed the trust he was given from God...
VP HIMSELF betrayed the trust we placed in him as a minister..
VP HIMSELF manipulated people with the bible winning their trust and then dove right in and took what was never his....
He was an EVIL man after the flesh... it was never about a spiritual *battle* The whole twi experience was seduction and rape *spiritually* by a slimey man who used the name of God and some bible teachings to masquerade behind and dissarm his victims....
You talk nice Mike, probably got folks thinkin you are an *alright* guy because you can quote scripture and claim to want to *save us* from ourselves...but what you are doing is evil....do you KNOW that you are working for darkness? Or have you managed to decieved yourself as well?
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sirguessalot
Mike,
Its the fact that you think you are the only one who presently sees the master better than anyone else.
This should be very telling to you.
And this is my point.
It places you in #4 in that:
heirachy of wisdom
heirarchy of knowing
hierarchy of capability
heierachy of blessings
hierarchy of present in-your-face here-and-now relevence.
IS YOUR MESSAGE REALLY THE MOST RELEVANT MESSAGE ON THE PLANET RIGHT NOW?
(message being: come back to PFAL like ME, and see what only I have seen. It is the most pure and profound and healing thing ANYWHERE!)
That puts YOU, personally, #4 in the very heirarchy of light and sound, my friend.
Until the OLGs join your revival and become fellow #4s. (of course, you'll always be the first to have attain the world's ultimate stage of enlightenment in this generation, yada yada.)
Are you now some sort of Buddha then?
An awakened one.
Soon to be ascended being?
(deep, resounding Moses like voice from a UFO or something)
"People of earth. Come to me. For I will show you VP. And he will show you Christ, who will show you God."
You claim to be the only one who:
is even looking at the master
can see the master
have seen the master
will see the master "unless you also look thru VPW
who is the only one who saw the master through Christ, but is now dead."
---
Mike,
How many ways to God are there?
One, right?
How many ways to Christ are there?
Just one?
This is a question you can't seem to wrap your mind around.
Its not a matter of experience, education, believing, and hound-dogging the sweet scent of truth and love that brings you to God. That's what brings you to Christ.
And face it, my friend.
We all start the hunt from different places in this world.
There are many ways to Chicago if God is not Chicago, but Christ is.
Who you kidding?
"It's not about me, it's not about me..."
It is about you.
Its about you claiming to the be THE greatest student of God since VPW, since Paul.
And that no living person has seen the master like you have.
Or, the only one that remembers seeing the master.
Or, the one who sees him better than every-freaking everybody else on the whole friggin world since VPW! Who was the one who saw the master.
You, and only you see God thru Christ thru VPW.
That is not the only view, just the only goggles yer wearing right now, and you've surgically implanted it on your third eyeball.
Let me ask you these:
Has God set a limit as to how many ways one can get to Christ?
Has God set a limit on how many disfunctional fathers start their disfunctional churchs in this disfunctional world?
Is there anything made by God that can't be remade if man undoes it?
Mike,
You are not ascended.
Cuz we can all still see you.
----
But...if you have came here to sacrifice yourself as a fool, so we can all see the craziness of TWI and PFAL and VPW much better, then hats off to you. You have done well. Because, by far, you have helped make this exway trip at the GSC continue to be more rewarding and enlightening and enriching than the first one.
But i doubt that this is your intention.
Regardless,
I am glad to know ya.
Even if yer writing reminds me of a crazy little hermit-troll who storms into a village and spouts off wierd riddles, divine secrets, mysteries, and calculations with a strange new jargon, offending just about everyone somehow.
Just wake up before you melt-down, my friend.
Or before you are completely buried in a pile of rocks.
Either way, may i have permission to write you in as that troll in my current fiction project?
Todd
[This message was edited by sirguessalot on June 15, 2003 at 17:51.]
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rascal
Easy, fortunate one...Mike here claims that vpw wrote for God and that his material is the *replacement* for a bible that is too worn out and outdated to be of much use to us in this day....
There for, any evil vpw personally wrought was acceptable is of no actual consequence... his *succumbing to old man nature* was just a casualty from the intense spirituual pressures he endured in the battle...cause he was the man Gawd chose don`tcha kmow...
My contention is .... that after reading Galations....and the attributes of a man after the flesh verses a man after the spirit....that vp manifested the characteristics of a man after the flesh... which gal says means he has NO inheritance in the kingdome of God...
I do not believe God entrusted his *new and improved* bible to a man after the flesh...
Sure vp had some good teachings he borrowed from men who DID walk after the spirit...THATS why he was able to disarm and decieve so many...
The choice? vpw man after the flesh...or man after the spirit? read galations and decide....I believe that it is quite clear...
Rascalrescued
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Mike
Sirguessalot,
Who ME?
Little ole ME...? In a real printed BOOK?
Do I have to wear one of those silly costumes with tights or can I wear my blue jeans?
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sirguessalot
Mike,
Re: the pawtucket's principle thingy...
Try it yourself.
btw - VPW was not the first to learn this from God. But its slick how you seem to credit VP with any smart thing that pops up in conversation.
(megaphone)
"Sir, please move to the shallow end of the pool before you drown."
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Mike
Fortunateone,
It'll take 24 pages to explain it to you. Reading it all "as is" is faster.
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sirguessalot
I'm sorry. I mistated my intentions. Actually Mike, its NOT you in the book, its a character study. Its a troll. Lives under a bridge, ya know? Bad table manners. Bad breath. Warts. Eats children. But one that farts angelic music. Thinks his beauty is God's gift to the villagers.
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Mike
Does he get any girls?
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Mike
Dooooooooough!
Look what you made me do sirguessalot. My 1000th post and I blew it on guytalk with you! I could have said something SIGNIFICANT! I kuda been a contenda!
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