If, when you want to mind someone else?s business, it might be good to research it a bit. It just so happens that mj412 has been chided by others here than me for her composition. She responded positively and showed us all that when she wants to put the effort into it, she can be just as intelligible as anyone else. So, you now disapprove of my motivational handling of her? v Fine! She?s YOUR responsibility now.
And if you find my posting that convoluted, what are you doing reading this thread?
So you?ve hardened your heart and cannot change your mind about my message? Please admit that this is the case. You are right, you?ve got it correct, and I must be wrong. THAT?S your stand no matter what new data comes in?
If I was moved my the rhetoric you displayed here I?d have become a trinitarian 30 years ago. I?ve heard your speech dozens of times, for several different doctrinal differences. Speeches like that (?get professional help?) are designed to induce fear motivation. Got anything better than fear motivation for me, oh correct one?
I suggest you stop leaning on the security of the crowd and the ages and ask yourself just WHY do you believe the Bible and that includes why believe in it?s present received form. Where do you see in the scriptures that God was watching over and protecting forgeries of His Word over the centuries and through the millennia? I know God watches over His Word, spiritually, but I?m asking you about the copies, the translations, the forgeries.
if that is the case then dear, if I write pretty and you think I agree with you on something and I may listen to you . I want freaking money big huge amounts of it right now since I am your responsibility.
I promise .... Mike I will hire a dam secretary for my posts if you send enough!!!!
BUT
alas you passed your responsibility on to another.
kind of like you did with your responsibility to God to Love Him with your whole heart and put no other God before HIM.
quote:I'm investigating what happens to me as I OBEY Dr's final instructions. I already KNOW what happened when I (and everyone else) disobeyed Dr's final instructions.
Here is a little breakdown of Mikean Logic.
1. We disoebyed VPW's "final instructions" to master PFAL - True
2. Bad things happened in TWI - also true.
3. Therefore - Not obeying VPW's "final instructions" caused bad things to happen in TWI. - True or False? Mike says true - but is it. ?
While both 1 and 2 are true they do not necessarily lead to 3 being true.
Here is an example to show the fallacy of this kind of thinking:
1. I ate a cheseburger today for lunch
2. I got a stomach ache and diarrea 4 hours later.
3. The cheseburger gave me food poisoning.
While the cheseburger 'could' have caused a stomach ache and food poisoning, it could also have been the bacon and eggs that I ate for breakfast. Or is may not have been food poisioning at all. It could have been a virus I picked up three days ago and took 72 hours to show symptoms. Likewise with the cause of the fall of TWI - there are many possible and even more likely things that could have led to the fall of TWI. Most all of these Mike ignores or refuses to discuss.
These are examples of bad logic - logical fallacies. Both my example and Mike's real argument examples of the logical fallacies know as the Fallacy of Exclusion and Affirming the Consequent - pretty much assuring a false or eroneous conclusion.
Mike has previously stated as fact that disobeying Wirewille's "final instructions" was the cause of TWI's downfall - taking any responsibility away from VPW and putting it squarely upon the shoulders of others. He has openly stated that he is not interested in other evidence that may show otherwise. Now Mike states that he is "investigatiting" what happens when one obeys Wierwilles final instructions. Yet while he is in the process of "investigating" he is also calling on folks to obey Wierwille - claiming this is the only road to Chicago. Mike does not wait until his investigation shows substantial positive evidence to support his claims. He ignores the multitude other travelers that are actually heading to Chicago from many different directions and tells them they all are going the wrong way - while he is still just investigating.
He is like the guy who finds a map to the Flying Dutcthman gold mine. He takes it to all the experts. The geology experts say that the geology of the mapped area is less than likely to have any gold - the formations are all wrong. The experienced miners who have been in the area and have struck out tell him there is no gold there. The geography experts look at the map and tell him that the map does not accurately represent the area. The map experts tell him that the map is a forgery - most likely produced by somone who was trying to make a buck. Yet the guy insists that the map is the real deal and tries to got others to invest in his plan. Why?
Goey
"Most of my fondest memories in TWI never really happened"
But remember that logic APPLIED well is the key to getting somewhere.
Not all the data is in yet, so your rigorous application of logic is premature. This is like Steve?s question about Blue p.23-24, where not all the data was in yet. Still isn?t all in yet. Same with your more general criticism.
You?ve spent so much time and energy trying to pick away at my message when it?s not all even presented yet. Instead of trying to definitively shoot it down immediately, why not play with it and see where THAT line of logic takes you. At the least, you?ll have a more comprehensive data base in which to ultimately shoot it down if you break out of your hostile myopia, if only while waiting my ultimate data deliveries.
Remember too, that we are not so much the beings of logic and reason we strut ourselves to be. Do you have the rigorous formal logic that induces your belief in the Bible ready for typing out? How well will it do in the hands of an professional atheistic logician, the kind that?s easy to find on any large university campus these days.
I liked your last paragraph, though. It reminds me of a passage in Volume V:
Hundreds of miners had walked over that mine before, but no one had realized the tremendous treasure so close at hand. None had found it except this one man, who named it ?Forest Queen.?
The Forest Queen Mine is like God?s Word. The treasures of God?s Word have been available for centuries. The reason people never find its treasures is that they never dig, never search, at the right place. A person cannot know the greatness of God by his five senses. In order to understand spiritual things a person must have the spirit of God within.? Now the Word of God is the most remarkable document in the whole world. Even though God?s written Word is in the senses realm, a man who believes it can receive holy spirit and begin to understand the spiritual realm.
For the most part, people never see the greatness of God?s Word because they are ?natural? people, people without God?s spirit. The natural man never will understand God?s Word; he simply cannot understand it. I wouldn?t criticize a blind man for his analysis of a great masterpiece of art, would I? So why criticize a natural man for his blind attempt to analyze the spiritual truths in the greatest masterpiece of all time, the Word of God?
You ask an excellent though off topic question as to why I keep coming back to this thread. The answer is simple: I am studying commitment. Martindale taught that commitment is infections and that it inspires others. He did a two part teaching called "The Salt Covenant" in which he taught that even commitment to a wrong ideal is magnetic to others. While your arguments for the idea that PFAL is the Word of God are illogical and non-biblical; your commitment to it does make it attractive. I came here for the sheer entertainment of watching you try to sell a faulty premise to others.
Mike, I look at all your efforts to see if you can get the people to turn off their knowledge of scripture, logic and your own conflicting posts to swallow your kooky thesis. So far I see no takers and no one is fooled by your transparent explanation that posting here is witnessing to the WayGB.
When you accuse me of derailing please remember you asked the question.
Mike that quote WASN`T about your topic, (man how you can manipulate things)..it was about the word of God...YOUR topic on the other hand, is trying convince us that your counterfit is *THE* word of God....big difference.
hey....jut because I have been relegated to the *low priority* file once again doesn`t mean you will shut me up :-).
I don't think you understood the nature of my remark to mj412 OR the nature of my relationship with her, and as a result of this profound ignorance I suggest you resign your post as Apology Monitor.
Coming here for sheer entertainment seems to preclude thououghness in your book, so I must remind you that your are commenting to me about her with a severe handicap.
Let me ask you this: do you read all her posts? I suspect not.
I do tolerate massive derailmants, so don't worry about THAT one. But butting into what you know nothing of just waste's everyone's time.
Don't hold your breath, E.W. ... Mike no longer interacts with human society on any quantifiable level. Ever since he won the Lifetime Idolatry Medal with Gold Calf Cluster, he's been so in love with the sound of his own typing that the only reason he takes so long to evade a direct question is because he only has one hand free at any given moment.
Still, idiots get what they deserve. The Universe seems to take great glee in providing folks like Mike as negative examples. I wouldn't be surprised if Goey or someone got rich off of him. That book writes itself...
The fool hath said in his heart, "PFAL is the Word of God..."
I?m not the only one who?s told you that your posts are much more readable if you use punctuation and if you proof read it before posting, or after posting.
When you did this your posts were much better. I think you are impressed with how much volume you type, and you just don?t notice how difficult the posts are to read.
You have proved to us all that you CAN do it.
It?s just a mater of courtesy that you do your best to communicate.
If you don?t put the effort into writing a little better, LIKE YOU DID BEFORE, then why should I put any effort into reading them? If you keep writing volumes of headache text, eventually my skimming will get so abbreviated I won?t even see it when you use the magical name of Jesus Christ to get your way with me.
Take a microscope, even a low-powered one. Focus under its lens an eyeglass, for example. You would see some imperfections in the glass, although perhaps only a few. Next, focus a high-powered microscope on the same eyeglass. You will find that the more high-powered the microscope, the greater the imperfections that will be seen in the glass. There are imperfections in anything man-made.
This example of the eyeglass demonstrates a principle. The more high-powered the microscope used to observe the works of man, the more imperfect the object appears. On the other hand, the more high-powered the microscope used to look upon something that God formed or made, the more perfect and orderly it appears. The closer the scrutiny of God's Word, the more obvious become its beauty and perfection. It is only a man who uses a poor microscope who never sees the greatness of God's Word. He does not observe it to see its perfection.
In his last book Dr says look at anything that?s man-made under a microscope and you see imperfections. Look at something God has done with a microscope and you see perfection.
In his last taped teaching (and others like it) Dr says look at the PFAL writings under a microscope... MASTER them.
Think there?s a connection?
I do.
[This message was edited by Mike on July 03, 2003 at 13:33.]
[This message was edited by Mike on July 03, 2003 at 13:35.]
[This message was edited by Mike on July 03, 2003 at 13:35.]
Mike, your analogy is good about magnifying the imperfections of anything man made.....we see these imperfections in many facets of pfal and twi dogma...that would be because it was of man..a man of the flesh.
I don`t get what you mean about chatroom dynamics... why not join us in the chat room some night?....you might find out just who and what we are really like.... might even find us of some value.
But remember too that it's the TVT where these errors lie. It takes time to separate TVT and all it's errors from the pure doctrine that's in written form.
It's taken me several years to slowly see that none of the nasty stuff made it into print form.
I was referring to how complicated this forum gets when it?s used LIKE a chatroom, the way we just were. Because this forum was designed to be efficient as a discussion board, it suffers greatly in the form of time delay illusions that creep up when posters are mere minutes away from each other, or posting simultaneously.
I?ve never been in a computer chat room. I may try it sometime.
But if you REALLY want to get to know me, the telephone is much better. I?ll pay.
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Yanagisawa
Did you say "get the ball rolling" or get the kaballa rolling...for it sounds like that's your current freak - some sort of hidden, mystical kaballa-esque gnostic esotericism. I'm fascinated with you
Mike
I almost forgot what this thread is about!
Looks like a lot of you did too.
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Mike
EWB,
If, when you want to mind someone else?s business, it might be good to research it a bit. It just so happens that mj412 has been chided by others here than me for her composition. She responded positively and showed us all that when she wants to put the effort into it, she can be just as intelligible as anyone else. So, you now disapprove of my motivational handling of her? v Fine! She?s YOUR responsibility now.
And if you find my posting that convoluted, what are you doing reading this thread?
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Mike
Too Gray Now,
So you?ve hardened your heart and cannot change your mind about my message? Please admit that this is the case. You are right, you?ve got it correct, and I must be wrong. THAT?S your stand no matter what new data comes in?
If I was moved my the rhetoric you displayed here I?d have become a trinitarian 30 years ago. I?ve heard your speech dozens of times, for several different doctrinal differences. Speeches like that (?get professional help?) are designed to induce fear motivation. Got anything better than fear motivation for me, oh correct one?
I suggest you stop leaning on the security of the crowd and the ages and ask yourself just WHY do you believe the Bible and that includes why believe in it?s present received form. Where do you see in the scriptures that God was watching over and protecting forgeries of His Word over the centuries and through the millennia? I know God watches over His Word, spiritually, but I?m asking you about the copies, the translations, the forgeries.
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mj412
lolololol
hahahahaha
Mike was responsible for me????
o mike what a freaking burden you carry!!!
if that is the case then dear, if I write pretty and you think I agree with you on something and I may listen to you . I want freaking money big huge amounts of it right now since I am your responsibility.
I promise .... Mike I will hire a dam secretary for my posts if you send enough!!!!
BUT
alas you passed your responsibility on to another.
kind of like you did with your responsibility to God to Love Him with your whole heart and put no other God before HIM.
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mj412
of course I didnt forget what this thread is about Mike !
It is always about YOU !
I got that straight.
you you and nothing but you .
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Tom Strange
Yeah Mike, I guess we did all forget... let me remind everyone for you:
GLORY BE TO MIKE!
GLORY BE TO MIKE!
GLORY BE TO MIKE!
MIKE IS THE ONLY ONE WHO KNOWS!
MIKE IS THE ONLY ONE WHO KNOWS!
MIKE IS THE ONLY ONE WHO KNOWS!
IF YOU DON'T BELIEVE ME, ASK HIM!
IF YOU DON'T BELIEVE ME, ASK HIM!
IF YOU DON'T BELIEVE ME, ASK HIM!
EXALTED IS MIKE OF THE THREAD!
EXALTED IS MIKE OF THE THREAD!
EXALTED IS MIKE OF THE THREAD!
Come on Mike, you've made it abundantly clear, everytime you've ever posted, that you are so superior to us all in all things spiritual!
Your condescending, elitist attitude is just soooooo tiring.... please go away....
Nobody agrees with you or shares your belief and I don't think it's likely that you're going to convert any...
Haven't the voices told you that it's time to move on? C'mon... they have, haven't they?
(If the voices in your head haven't told you to move on... then... they're not of the same origin as the ones in mine)
Have a happy journey... be sure to let us all know the address of your new website... Peace
I looked behind the curtain and saw that it was bad
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Goey
Mikean Logic,
Mike Posted:
Here is a little breakdown of Mikean Logic.
1. We disoebyed VPW's "final instructions" to master PFAL - True
2. Bad things happened in TWI - also true.
3. Therefore - Not obeying VPW's "final instructions" caused bad things to happen in TWI. - True or False? Mike says true - but is it. ?
While both 1 and 2 are true they do not necessarily lead to 3 being true.
Here is an example to show the fallacy of this kind of thinking:
1. I ate a cheseburger today for lunch
2. I got a stomach ache and diarrea 4 hours later.
3. The cheseburger gave me food poisoning.
While the cheseburger 'could' have caused a stomach ache and food poisoning, it could also have been the bacon and eggs that I ate for breakfast. Or is may not have been food poisioning at all. It could have been a virus I picked up three days ago and took 72 hours to show symptoms. Likewise with the cause of the fall of TWI - there are many possible and even more likely things that could have led to the fall of TWI. Most all of these Mike ignores or refuses to discuss.
These are examples of bad logic - logical fallacies. Both my example and Mike's real argument examples of the logical fallacies know as the Fallacy of Exclusion and Affirming the Consequent - pretty much assuring a false or eroneous conclusion.
Mike has previously stated as fact that disobeying Wirewille's "final instructions" was the cause of TWI's downfall - taking any responsibility away from VPW and putting it squarely upon the shoulders of others. He has openly stated that he is not interested in other evidence that may show otherwise. Now Mike states that he is "investigatiting" what happens when one obeys Wierwilles final instructions. Yet while he is in the process of "investigating" he is also calling on folks to obey Wierwille - claiming this is the only road to Chicago. Mike does not wait until his investigation shows substantial positive evidence to support his claims. He ignores the multitude other travelers that are actually heading to Chicago from many different directions and tells them they all are going the wrong way - while he is still just investigating.
He is like the guy who finds a map to the Flying Dutcthman gold mine. He takes it to all the experts. The geology experts say that the geology of the mapped area is less than likely to have any gold - the formations are all wrong. The experienced miners who have been in the area and have struck out tell him there is no gold there. The geography experts look at the map and tell him that the map does not accurately represent the area. The map experts tell him that the map is a forgery - most likely produced by somone who was trying to make a buck. Yet the guy insists that the map is the real deal and tries to got others to invest in his plan. Why?
Goey
"Most of my fondest memories in TWI never really happened"
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Tom Strange
Goey... thank you for your insightful post... (and nice picture, too)... BUT...
I didn't know we were going to Chicago... I thought we were going to Disneyworld!
dammit!
And the Lost Dutchman's Mind?
It's in Chicago as well?
I thought it was somewhere "out west"...
double dammit!
I've been going the wrong direction all of these years!
How could I have not seen it?
Why didn't I listen to Mike?
Oh... I remember now... different voices!
hahahhahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha!
I looked behind the curtain and saw that it was bad
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Mike
Goey,
But remember that logic APPLIED well is the key to getting somewhere.
Not all the data is in yet, so your rigorous application of logic is premature. This is like Steve?s question about Blue p.23-24, where not all the data was in yet. Still isn?t all in yet. Same with your more general criticism.
You?ve spent so much time and energy trying to pick away at my message when it?s not all even presented yet. Instead of trying to definitively shoot it down immediately, why not play with it and see where THAT line of logic takes you. At the least, you?ll have a more comprehensive data base in which to ultimately shoot it down if you break out of your hostile myopia, if only while waiting my ultimate data deliveries.
Remember too, that we are not so much the beings of logic and reason we strut ourselves to be. Do you have the rigorous formal logic that induces your belief in the Bible ready for typing out? How well will it do in the hands of an professional atheistic logician, the kind that?s easy to find on any large university campus these days.
I liked your last paragraph, though. It reminds me of a passage in Volume V:
*******************************************************
OMSW p.23-24:
Hundreds of miners had walked over that mine before, but no one had realized the tremendous treasure so close at hand. None had found it except this one man, who named it ?Forest Queen.?
The Forest Queen Mine is like God?s Word. The treasures of God?s Word have been available for centuries. The reason people never find its treasures is that they never dig, never search, at the right place. A person cannot know the greatness of God by his five senses. In order to understand spiritual things a person must have the spirit of God within.? Now the Word of God is the most remarkable document in the whole world. Even though God?s written Word is in the senses realm, a man who believes it can receive holy spirit and begin to understand the spiritual realm.
For the most part, people never see the greatness of God?s Word because they are ?natural? people, people without God?s spirit. The natural man never will understand God?s Word; he simply cannot understand it. I wouldn?t criticize a blind man for his analysis of a great masterpiece of art, would I? So why criticize a natural man for his blind attempt to analyze the spiritual truths in the greatest masterpiece of all time, the Word of God?
*************************************************************
And looky there!
We?re back to MY chosen topic, which is NOT me, but the natural/spiritual perspectives that are crucial to understanding PFAL.
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E. W. Bullinger
Dear Mike:
You ask an excellent though off topic question as to why I keep coming back to this thread. The answer is simple: I am studying commitment. Martindale taught that commitment is infections and that it inspires others. He did a two part teaching called "The Salt Covenant" in which he taught that even commitment to a wrong ideal is magnetic to others. While your arguments for the idea that PFAL is the Word of God are illogical and non-biblical; your commitment to it does make it attractive. I came here for the sheer entertainment of watching you try to sell a faulty premise to others.
Mike, I look at all your efforts to see if you can get the people to turn off their knowledge of scripture, logic and your own conflicting posts to swallow your kooky thesis. So far I see no takers and no one is fooled by your transparent explanation that posting here is witnessing to the WayGB.
When you accuse me of derailing please remember you asked the question.
EWB
P.S. You never did apologize to MJ.
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rascal
Mike that quote WASN`T about your topic, (man how you can manipulate things)..it was about the word of God...YOUR topic on the other hand, is trying convince us that your counterfit is *THE* word of God....big difference.
hey....jut because I have been relegated to the *low priority* file once again doesn`t mean you will shut me up :-).
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Mike
EWB,
I don't think you understood the nature of my remark to mj412 OR the nature of my relationship with her, and as a result of this profound ignorance I suggest you resign your post as Apology Monitor.
Coming here for sheer entertainment seems to preclude thououghness in your book, so I must remind you that your are commenting to me about her with a severe handicap.
Let me ask you this: do you read all her posts? I suspect not.
I do tolerate massive derailmants, so don't worry about THAT one. But butting into what you know nothing of just waste's everyone's time.
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Zixar
Don't hold your breath, E.W. ... Mike no longer interacts with human society on any quantifiable level. Ever since he won the Lifetime Idolatry Medal with Gold Calf Cluster, he's been so in love with the sound of his own typing that the only reason he takes so long to evade a direct question is because he only has one hand free at any given moment.
Still, idiots get what they deserve. The Universe seems to take great glee in providing folks like Mike as negative examples. I wouldn't be surprised if Goey or someone got rich off of him. That book writes itself...
The fool hath said in his heart, "PFAL is the Word of God..."
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Mike
mj412,
I?m not the only one who?s told you that your posts are much more readable if you use punctuation and if you proof read it before posting, or after posting.
When you did this your posts were much better. I think you are impressed with how much volume you type, and you just don?t notice how difficult the posts are to read.
You have proved to us all that you CAN do it.
It?s just a mater of courtesy that you do your best to communicate.
If you don?t put the effort into writing a little better, LIKE YOU DID BEFORE, then why should I put any effort into reading them? If you keep writing volumes of headache text, eventually my skimming will get so abbreviated I won?t even see it when you use the magical name of Jesus Christ to get your way with me.
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Mike
rascal,
I don't understand your post as is.
I can't tell what quote you're referring to.
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rascal
sorry, about the forrest queen mine...
must be my ubiquiousness of my posting skills:-)
Thanks for letting me outta my *bin*
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Mike
rascal,
Everything's priorities.
I think Dr was REALLY talking about the PFAL books in that passage.
There?s a reason I think this.
In this same chapter as the Forest Queen mine Dr talks about examining something VERY closely, like with a microscope.
Just two pages after the Forest Queen passage he writes this:
*************************************************************
OMSW p.26
Take a microscope, even a low-powered one. Focus under its lens an eyeglass, for example. You would see some imperfections in the glass, although perhaps only a few. Next, focus a high-powered microscope on the same eyeglass. You will find that the more high-powered the microscope, the greater the imperfections that will be seen in the glass. There are imperfections in anything man-made.
This example of the eyeglass demonstrates a principle. The more high-powered the microscope used to observe the works of man, the more imperfect the object appears. On the other hand, the more high-powered the microscope used to look upon something that God formed or made, the more perfect and orderly it appears. The closer the scrutiny of God's Word, the more obvious become its beauty and perfection. It is only a man who uses a poor microscope who never sees the greatness of God's Word. He does not observe it to see its perfection.
*************************************************************
Now here comes a little logic.
This is Dr?s LAST book I?m quoting from.
In his last book Dr says look at anything that?s man-made under a microscope and you see imperfections. Look at something God has done with a microscope and you see perfection.
In his last taped teaching (and others like it) Dr says look at the PFAL writings under a microscope... MASTER them.
Think there?s a connection?
I do.
[This message was edited by Mike on July 03, 2003 at 13:33.]
[This message was edited by Mike on July 03, 2003 at 13:35.]
[This message was edited by Mike on July 03, 2003 at 13:35.]
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Tom Strange
Mike... please change your handle to "God" so that us new folks won't be confused.
Your post to MJ a couple above this is soooo "the pot calling the kettle black"
you pompous ...
I looked behind the curtain and saw that it was bad
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rascal
sorry ... I do not see any connection...really.
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Mike
rascal,
Ohhhh the chat room dynamics of this forum!
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rascal
Mike, your analogy is good about magnifying the imperfections of anything man made.....we see these imperfections in many facets of pfal and twi dogma...that would be because it was of man..a man of the flesh.
I don`t get what you mean about chatroom dynamics... why not join us in the chat room some night?....you might find out just who and what we are really like.... might even find us of some value.
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Mike
rascal,
But remember too that it's the TVT where these errors lie. It takes time to separate TVT and all it's errors from the pure doctrine that's in written form.
It's taken me several years to slowly see that none of the nasty stuff made it into print form.
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Mike
rascal,
I was referring to how complicated this forum gets when it?s used LIKE a chatroom, the way we just were. Because this forum was designed to be efficient as a discussion board, it suffers greatly in the form of time delay illusions that creep up when posters are mere minutes away from each other, or posting simultaneously.
I?ve never been in a computer chat room. I may try it sometime.
But if you REALLY want to get to know me, the telephone is much better. I?ll pay.
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Mike
Tom Strange,
I?m just a man with a message.
There?s nothing special about me to talk about, but my message is one helluva duzzie!
You may be confusing me with my message.
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