You wrote: ?Your reasoning does not make any sense. You stretch the rules of ethics, logic and the bible to justify that VPW was the man of God for all time. You do not even consider the possibility that your hero was not 100 percent perfect.?
I?m not so sure I ever used the phrase ?for all time? or even ?of the world? when describing Dr as a man of God. I think he was OUR man of God for OUR time.
I actually DO consider the possibility that he was not 100 percent perfect. I KNOW that he was not perfect. I think God did a PERFECT work in PFAL with him and his team of others helping him.
I have considered at GREAT length, in much detail and for several decades, the imperfections of Dr and I have concluded that they did not disable God?s ability to work with him. This is encouraging to me in that it promises that God can do a lot with me in spite of MY shortcomings too. This may be of comfort to you as well.
**********
You wrote: ?Do you not understand the beauty of the scriptures? How a man like Moses will all of his doubts of his ability could lead the children of Israel out of Egypt to be the lawgiver? How a sinful man like Paul could check his loathing for his former self and write so many wonderful epistles to us!?
It was solely due to Dr?s teaching that I DO INDEED see and love the beauty of the scriptures. I thank God that because of PFAL we can see the scriptures better now with PFAL. Outside of PFAL the scriptures are very difficult to see clearly. It?s with PFAL that the scriptures unfold to reveal all their beauty.
*********
You wrote: ?The truth of the matter is that not only was VPW dishonest for plagiarizing others works, but he was also lazy. He could have easily re-written all of those manuscripts and make them totally his work. Yet he chose a dishonest shortcut.?
Actually lazy was never a charge that could stick with Dr. He did a lot of work. I think he chose the harder route by not altering his text. He chose a route that could later be fraught with nit pickers who want to bring marketplace ethics or academic ethics into the family of God. He chose to print EXACTLY what God wanted him to print, and not what was safe from a business point of view.
God guided Dr to those men for a reason. By God?s grace, mercy, and help, they had come up with some texts that were perfect or nearly perfect. It was in God?s best interests to have farmed out or subcontracted some of His work to other teachers that Dr could later learn from, integrate it into a much more comprehensive package, and then distribute around the world.
I think, EWB, that you have picked up a limited supply of data points on this subject, and have come to a premature judgement of the motives on Dr?s heart. If you are grateful for the learning and healing that PFAL gave you once, than I urge you to come back to PFAL and see what greater surprises God hath wrotght.
MsRascal, thank you for noticing, I wasn't going to respond to his "non-response" but now that he's on you like Tick on a chihuahua, I'll address him...
Mike: (I'll translate FOR YOU) while I certainly agree that an adversarial relationship exists on this thread (between you and pretty much everyone else) my last post (which I assume you were addressing) dealt with... here let me point it out to you... YOUR CONDESCENDING ATTITUDE TOWARDS ALL OF US HERE...
now back to our regularly scheduled adversarial thread...
I looked behind the curtain and saw that it was bad
Mike - Thank you for your response to my questions about the social dimensions of the "God-breathed PFAL" phenomenon. You gave me all the information I asked for. I didn't want to find out about any other people's personal involvement. I just wanted to be sure my memory of the bits and pieces you've posted here and there was accurate.
Thanks again. I've got a few other questions about your beliefs that I'll ask later.
Remember how many times Dr taught us "It's God's Word even if NOBODY believes it."
I never dreamed I'd be embracing this teaching of his as much as I am now.
It would be greatr to have company, but I finally found out what it would be like to have to apply the teaching "It's God's Word even if NOBODY believes it."
completing his education, working, or both during this time,
and including things like a trip to India interrupting this,
this would be an INCREDIBLE pace to maintain.
(Of course, if you think he was at the pinnacle of human
ability, this is not an unreasonable feat.) Just thought
you guys would like the numbers crunched.?
Mrs. Wierwille has spoken and written that while in school Dr started doing a very large amount of reading. In the late 70?s I worked close to EO?s office i nthe bookstore. Every month she would get a shipment of books for Dr piled up on her desk to inventory. These were mostly current titles Dr would order. It was often a challenge to do it without getting caught, but I?d try to see the titles whenever I could. It was an amazing assortment of things that he was reading up on. I guess he had a relapse in his voracious reading habits and got back into it decades later, after the reported book burning.
Wordwolf, your cackle-ations on the size of 3000 volumes didn?t take into account that professional academic journals are often rather thin. I think a thousand volumes of them can easily fit into a small closet.
Also, I?ve noticed that often people buy entire personal libraries at a time at auctions, or are given libraries of elderly or diseased scholars. In the 80?s ministry meltdown I saw entire libraries of books and tapes go this way and that. People donate personal libraries to seminary students and ministers.
Your citation of pages 119-120 in PFAL included ?I decided to quit reading around The Word. Consequently, I have spent years studying The Word-its integrity, its meaning, its words.? In this quote I surmise you see a contradiction. You probably see Dr saying that he stopped reading anything but the Bible, and that Dr?s learning from the other teachers like Kenyon was not the Bible, so Dr lied?
If Dr had written:
?I decided to quit reading around the BIBLE. Consequently, I have spent years studying the BIBLE - its integrity, its meaning, its words?
or if he had written:
?I decided to quit reading around The KJV. Consequently, I have spent years studying The KJV-its integrity, its meaning, its words?
THEN I?d have to agree that there was a contradiction.
But he didn?t write it that way. Dr received the Word that he studied and ONLY studied from several sources. The KJV was one, the Greek was another, Lamsa was another, Kenyon was another.
When we confuse ?God?s Word? with ?Bible? to mean the same thing, then Dr?s words cannot be rightly divided. Dr maintained a difference in his vocabulary regarding these two words, and within that vocabulary is great consistency.
Dr stopped reading around the Word via the academics volumes he had collected and had previously committed his life to, and he took God at His promise of 1942. God led him to various sources and teachers, often well outside the mainstream of academic christianity. From these sources and teachers Dr received the true spiritual Word, as much as had been made available by God to these others Dr learned from.
I see the book burning passage in PFAL not as a renouncing of all other learning by books, but more of a renouncing of the official academic churchianity that he had been previously committed to.
When Dr learned from these other men, he THEN felt a need had to bring it back to the Bible, the received scriptures and see what fit and what didn?t fit, to the best of his ability. On those few occasions where his spiritual insight and awareness led him to believe the received scriptures were inadequate, he?d hold out to find at least one manuscript that backed up what God had taught him via the various methods.
*********
You wrote: ?What about the WHITE book? Does the white book contain such a claim as well? ... ...The preface says that this book is the result of vpw's own personal search...?
The same holds with this book. Dr put aside all the official baloney, and went with God?s guidance as to how to open the scriptures. Sometimes God guided him to other men?s work in the scriptures, men not in the official mainstream, so there was a pooling of efforts. God gets all the glory, for He was guiding the whole team. The final product of many men working with God was PFAL.
I do not see now that any of these books claim Dr to be a sole originator, or even and originator at all. Dr was up front with us about his teachers, and your beef is not going to entangle me.
Your whole stance on this subject is to ignore the family of God aspect, and you laud to the skies the academic and marketplace ethics. I don?t buy it at all.
**********
You wrote:
?...and Leonard added elaborate copyright warnings to all his work after he learned of it. So Leonard, at least, DID mind, quite a bit. Perhaps it was because he was mindful of fellow Christians that he did not seek to recover damages, as he was legally entitled to do.?
Well, I was wrong about Houdini, and I was wrong about Bullinger?s graduate students, I suppose I?ll be wrong about other things that I don?t look into very well.
**********
You wrote: ?An ethical system for the family would seek to treat each member respectfully, whether they be present or not. The fact that all OTHER Christians besides YOU are mindful of copyrights and respecting the property and work of each other does not move you, I suppose.?
I think that copyrights have their place in academia and the marketplace. Not in God?s family where we are not owners but mere stewards.
You then whispered: ?(I am a little curious how you'd feel if someone else
rereleased vpw's books and claimed to be the author of original works. No, don't answer-I don't expect a truthful answer to that one.)?
Actually, I believe this is the reason the PFAL videos suddenly appeared with a copyright notice in the 80?s. No one had bothered to do it, but it suddenly was proposed that someone outside the ministry could come along and copyright it for themselves if we didn?t do it. Such a theft may not have been all that likely to succeed, but it could cause a lot of paperwork hassles.
Your scenario is a little different, but has similarities. Actually I do cringe at the cyber copies of Dr?s books that are beginning to appear. I?ve tried scanning a page or two and that?s not too hard. It?s formatting and then proofreading that are gargantuan tasks. I fear that some will be inaccurate, or not the best editions, and that it will became difficult to tell with the cyber versions which ones are well done and well proofread.
When the TWI bookstore cut us off from sales several years ago, they probably had no idea how many people immediately bought scanners. I estimate at least one hundred. There are very few hard core believers in these books out there like me, BUT there are THOUSANDS of grads out there who want the PFAL books and they want their children to have them too. Only by reopening the bookstore and paper copies to us can they slow down the proliferation of inaccurate cyber copies of Dr?s books.
So, this is still not exactly your scenario. For what you proposed, I?d say the consumers of such products would be robbed of the opportunity to know of the entire PFAL teaching. But this is moot, because I believe that PFAL reached everyone it was supposed to reach, at least in the video/book form we were reached with. I think if your scenario took place not too much good would arise from it and not too much bad.
******
You then wrote:
?In case you missed it, side-comments made in a few tapes
here and there don't absolve one from responsibility of
giving proper credit where it is due. Several editions were
made of BOTH books. In ANY of them, credit could easily have
been added. vpw CHOSE not to do so. Since we were unaware
they were not wholly original books, we didn't pry when he
made comments that he learned a few things here and there
from other Christians. We believed vpw would never lie to
us, and that if his books contained work by someone else,
he'd CERTAINLY have told us. We were trusting fools that way.
Never again.?
I?d say with you, don?t ever again be ?trusting fools" THAT WAY.
?That way? is characterized in your paragraph above by:
?proper credit where it is due?
?credit could easily have been added?
?wholly original books?
?work by someone else?
This great homage to human originality is unfounded. Don?t you remember all the teaching we got on how great art was really spiritual, as well as great intellectual endeavors in letters and science and math? We were taught that originality on the 5-senses level was an illusion, and that humans don?t really think up anything. That we only know what we are taught. If it looks like we came up with an idea that we weren?t taught via the 5-senses, or sufficient pieces of it taught via the 5-senses, then the ?new? idea came from either holy spirit or unholy spirit.
Weren?t you taught this about originality? I was. And it fit quite well with what Dr taught us about him being taught by the men God guided him to.
You are magnifying a concept that need not, indeed MUST not be magnified in the family of God. When I invite you to ?come Back? to PFAL with trust, I don?t mean that kind of trust in Dr's originality.
I suggest you come back to PFAL with the attitude that it is NOT the original work of VPW, but that it originated OUTSIDE his mind (...remember the Pressed Down song ?It?s Outside??... ) and Dr was the organizer more than the originator. Come back to PFAL and trust that the real Author is God.
[This message was edited by Mike on July 07, 2003 at 17:46.]
First of all, not all condescension is bad. Remember the figure of speech condescencio?
What?s bad is false condescension.
False condescension is where an attitude if superiority is displayed, but no goods or services come down from this superior level. Leaders who refuse to serve, but expect to BE served, exhibit this false condescension. But condescension can be a good word if there?s love and service that ?come down? or conDESCEND from above.
If I offer help that really is help, then the glory goes to God Who orchestrated my being able to deliver it. In other words, if I help, it?s not me reaching down or condescending to your level with this help. It?s more like GOD condescending to you lovingly, and He employs my services to deliver His help to you.
Like I said in posts above, I can?t take credit for bringing a good message to you, because God gets the credit, the glory. I not thinking of myself as condescending down to you, but to serving God?s product on a horizontal level.
I said tough. I match your toughness. Lighten up a bit and let's eee what we can discuss. Have you got any other beefs, other than the standard ones? Maybe I can help.
Well it seems like I?m doing it whether I ?would? or not.
Five senses wise I wasn?t cut out for leadership. I thought I was going as far as I dared as a twig leader.
I still shy away from the idea, but those who are 5-senses endowed greater than the average bear to be leaders are not doing it. What I?m doing here should have been said in 1985 by all the top OLGs in position at that time. They just didn?t have the Word pure enough, too much PFAL Word had slipped out by then, and they were overwhelmed.
I?m very much looking forward to seeing some better equipped OLG leaders jumping into the mastery project.
You wrote: ?Mike, Would you like to get away from those books for awhile and just talk about something else? How about baseball, I love baseball and will talk about it with anyone interested. Its not a sin to enjoy other things in life and keeping God at the head right??
Well this thread has a goal.
In my life I have other things going on. In other threads I?ve had other things going on. Did you see my mirror thread?
Why Does A Mirror Reverse Left and Right But Not Up and Down?
Mike, don`t flatter yourself, you were never *tough* with me.... the only thing I ever saw was you getting nasty (possibly) as a distraction from having to truthfully answere our questions......
The only *toughness* I recall displaying is insisting that you explain the contradictions between your doctrine and the bible....
I don`t know what we CAN discuss....as you have not answered any of my questions so far....
I happen to LOVE baseball. Not major league, any more anyway. I played baseball and softball when I was young and loved them. I saw "1961" happen in the current sports pages of the day, and on the radio, decades before Billy Crystal made the HBO movie. Have you seen "1961"? (or maybe it's "61") It's good! It's in video stores.
When I was a kid I thought that Mickey Mantle's kicking of dust would make designs on the infield that were God-breathed. ...almost
Nowadays I marvel at all the baseball figures of speech that have entered the English language. It's a lot like the railroad figures of speech that came in, and they both seemed to happen at the same time, starting in the mid 1800s.
Mike, There are times that you do a turn about and bless my heart. This is one of them. I love baseball at any level especially the level my son is at of course. I have the *61 tape and have watched it over and over. I love it. I also loved "Bang the Drum Slowly with Robert DeNiro and Michael Moriority" I have tried to buy that tape and can't find it anywhere.
Anyone know where I can get that tape, let me know.
L.A. #1 DODGER FAN
Dovey....proud owner of two low riders...Dovey's Doxies...... Dovey
How about getting into some areas other than the ones that insult a man I happen to love and am thankful to God for. If you want to continually insult my teacher, go ahead, but then don?t complain I pay little attention to you.
How would you like it if someone insulted someone you were thankful to God for? How magnanimous would you be to such a disrespectful and rude person?
If you want to beat on the sex thing or the plagiarism thing, don?t expect my attention. I have said several times I closed my mind to taunts like yours on those two subjects. If those are the only things you can come to that table with, I suggest you get a life and quit bothering me.
If you want to learn what happened to us all, why we were so convinced of SOMETHING good that made it worth dedicating our lives to it, and why it then so quickly soured, then I?d love to help. The reason I can help is because I saw nobody else was doing it, and I scoured the tape/print record to find out where we missed Dr?s message.
When we get that message intact, in detail, then many issues will take care of themselves. It worked for me. This is the great story of deliverance I have to report on that happened in my life. I was plagued with confusion as to why and how so many good leaders one time, suddenly turned into such complete jerks a few short years later. I had lots of questions plaguing me by 1988-98 an these lines. I can now forgive the leaders who hurt me.
I see a bigger picture now. I described a bit of this in the ?Saving Private Ryan? method of forgiveness about one third the way down this thread page:
tHANKS EXXIE, I will go there and look. Did you see that movie, Ex? Mike if you didn't see it you probably would love it. The movie isn't just about baseball, its also about love.
One man's (Michael) love for his fellow player (Robert) and how this love brings a bunch of hateful team mates together to build a winning team.
If you can get it Mike watch it I really think you'll love it.
If you do let me know ok?
Dovey....proud owner of two low riders...Dovey's Doxies...... Dovey
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Yanagisawa
Did you say "get the ball rolling" or get the kaballa rolling...for it sounds like that's your current freak - some sort of hidden, mystical kaballa-esque gnostic esotericism. I'm fascinated with you
Mike
E. W. Bullinger,
You wrote: ?Your reasoning does not make any sense. You stretch the rules of ethics, logic and the bible to justify that VPW was the man of God for all time. You do not even consider the possibility that your hero was not 100 percent perfect.?
I?m not so sure I ever used the phrase ?for all time? or even ?of the world? when describing Dr as a man of God. I think he was OUR man of God for OUR time.
I actually DO consider the possibility that he was not 100 percent perfect. I KNOW that he was not perfect. I think God did a PERFECT work in PFAL with him and his team of others helping him.
I have considered at GREAT length, in much detail and for several decades, the imperfections of Dr and I have concluded that they did not disable God?s ability to work with him. This is encouraging to me in that it promises that God can do a lot with me in spite of MY shortcomings too. This may be of comfort to you as well.
**********
You wrote: ?Do you not understand the beauty of the scriptures? How a man like Moses will all of his doubts of his ability could lead the children of Israel out of Egypt to be the lawgiver? How a sinful man like Paul could check his loathing for his former self and write so many wonderful epistles to us!?
It was solely due to Dr?s teaching that I DO INDEED see and love the beauty of the scriptures. I thank God that because of PFAL we can see the scriptures better now with PFAL. Outside of PFAL the scriptures are very difficult to see clearly. It?s with PFAL that the scriptures unfold to reveal all their beauty.
*********
You wrote: ?The truth of the matter is that not only was VPW dishonest for plagiarizing others works, but he was also lazy. He could have easily re-written all of those manuscripts and make them totally his work. Yet he chose a dishonest shortcut.?
Actually lazy was never a charge that could stick with Dr. He did a lot of work. I think he chose the harder route by not altering his text. He chose a route that could later be fraught with nit pickers who want to bring marketplace ethics or academic ethics into the family of God. He chose to print EXACTLY what God wanted him to print, and not what was safe from a business point of view.
God guided Dr to those men for a reason. By God?s grace, mercy, and help, they had come up with some texts that were perfect or nearly perfect. It was in God?s best interests to have farmed out or subcontracted some of His work to other teachers that Dr could later learn from, integrate it into a much more comprehensive package, and then distribute around the world.
I think, EWB, that you have picked up a limited supply of data points on this subject, and have come to a premature judgement of the motives on Dr?s heart. If you are grateful for the learning and healing that PFAL gave you once, than I urge you to come back to PFAL and see what greater surprises God hath wrotght.
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Tom Strange
Okay then...
MsRascal, thank you for noticing, I wasn't going to respond to his "non-response" but now that he's on you like Tick on a chihuahua, I'll address him...
Mike: (I'll translate FOR YOU) while I certainly agree that an adversarial relationship exists on this thread (between you and pretty much everyone else) my last post (which I assume you were addressing) dealt with... here let me point it out to you... YOUR CONDESCENDING ATTITUDE TOWARDS ALL OF US HERE...
now back to our regularly scheduled adversarial thread...
I looked behind the curtain and saw that it was bad
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rascal
*I`m not going to entice you with great stories of healing and success* it would be my guess because there aparently ARE none for him to tell, Steve.
But my oh my, he sure has a slick way of wiggling out of having to honestly answere eh?
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wyteduv58
Mike, Would you like to get away from those books for awhile and just talk about something else?
How about baseball, I love baseball and will talk about it with anyone interested.
Its not a sin to enjoy other things in life and keeping God at the head right?
Dovey....proud owner of two low riders...Dovey's Doxies...... Dovey
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Steve Lortz
Mike - Thank you for your response to my questions about the social dimensions of the "God-breathed PFAL" phenomenon. You gave me all the information I asked for. I didn't want to find out about any other people's personal involvement. I just wanted to be sure my memory of the bits and pieces you've posted here and there was accurate.
Thanks again. I've got a few other questions about your beliefs that I'll ask later.
Love,
Steve
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Mike
Steve,
Remember how many times Dr taught us "It's God's Word even if NOBODY believes it."
I never dreamed I'd be embracing this teaching of his as much as I am now.
It would be greatr to have company, but I finally found out what it would be like to have to apply the teaching "It's God's Word even if NOBODY believes it."
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Mike
WordWolf
You wrote: ? Considering he had to be either
completing his education, working, or both during this time,
and including things like a trip to India interrupting this,
this would be an INCREDIBLE pace to maintain.
(Of course, if you think he was at the pinnacle of human
ability, this is not an unreasonable feat.) Just thought
you guys would like the numbers crunched.?
Mrs. Wierwille has spoken and written that while in school Dr started doing a very large amount of reading. In the late 70?s I worked close to EO?s office i nthe bookstore. Every month she would get a shipment of books for Dr piled up on her desk to inventory. These were mostly current titles Dr would order. It was often a challenge to do it without getting caught, but I?d try to see the titles whenever I could. It was an amazing assortment of things that he was reading up on. I guess he had a relapse in his voracious reading habits and got back into it decades later, after the reported book burning.
Wordwolf, your cackle-ations on the size of 3000 volumes didn?t take into account that professional academic journals are often rather thin. I think a thousand volumes of them can easily fit into a small closet.
Also, I?ve noticed that often people buy entire personal libraries at a time at auctions, or are given libraries of elderly or diseased scholars. In the 80?s ministry meltdown I saw entire libraries of books and tapes go this way and that. People donate personal libraries to seminary students and ministers.
Your citation of pages 119-120 in PFAL included ?I decided to quit reading around The Word. Consequently, I have spent years studying The Word-its integrity, its meaning, its words.? In this quote I surmise you see a contradiction. You probably see Dr saying that he stopped reading anything but the Bible, and that Dr?s learning from the other teachers like Kenyon was not the Bible, so Dr lied?
If Dr had written:
?I decided to quit reading around the BIBLE. Consequently, I have spent years studying the BIBLE - its integrity, its meaning, its words?
or if he had written:
?I decided to quit reading around The KJV. Consequently, I have spent years studying The KJV-its integrity, its meaning, its words?
THEN I?d have to agree that there was a contradiction.
But he didn?t write it that way. Dr received the Word that he studied and ONLY studied from several sources. The KJV was one, the Greek was another, Lamsa was another, Kenyon was another.
When we confuse ?God?s Word? with ?Bible? to mean the same thing, then Dr?s words cannot be rightly divided. Dr maintained a difference in his vocabulary regarding these two words, and within that vocabulary is great consistency.
Dr stopped reading around the Word via the academics volumes he had collected and had previously committed his life to, and he took God at His promise of 1942. God led him to various sources and teachers, often well outside the mainstream of academic christianity. From these sources and teachers Dr received the true spiritual Word, as much as had been made available by God to these others Dr learned from.
I see the book burning passage in PFAL not as a renouncing of all other learning by books, but more of a renouncing of the official academic churchianity that he had been previously committed to.
When Dr learned from these other men, he THEN felt a need had to bring it back to the Bible, the received scriptures and see what fit and what didn?t fit, to the best of his ability. On those few occasions where his spiritual insight and awareness led him to believe the received scriptures were inadequate, he?d hold out to find at least one manuscript that backed up what God had taught him via the various methods.
*********
You wrote: ?What about the WHITE book? Does the white book contain such a claim as well? ... ...The preface says that this book is the result of vpw's own personal search...?
The same holds with this book. Dr put aside all the official baloney, and went with God?s guidance as to how to open the scriptures. Sometimes God guided him to other men?s work in the scriptures, men not in the official mainstream, so there was a pooling of efforts. God gets all the glory, for He was guiding the whole team. The final product of many men working with God was PFAL.
I do not see now that any of these books claim Dr to be a sole originator, or even and originator at all. Dr was up front with us about his teachers, and your beef is not going to entangle me.
Your whole stance on this subject is to ignore the family of God aspect, and you laud to the skies the academic and marketplace ethics. I don?t buy it at all.
**********
You wrote:
?...and Leonard added elaborate copyright warnings to all his work after he learned of it. So Leonard, at least, DID mind, quite a bit. Perhaps it was because he was mindful of fellow Christians that he did not seek to recover damages, as he was legally entitled to do.?
Well, I was wrong about Houdini, and I was wrong about Bullinger?s graduate students, I suppose I?ll be wrong about other things that I don?t look into very well.
**********
You wrote: ?An ethical system for the family would seek to treat each member respectfully, whether they be present or not. The fact that all OTHER Christians besides YOU are mindful of copyrights and respecting the property and work of each other does not move you, I suppose.?
I think that copyrights have their place in academia and the marketplace. Not in God?s family where we are not owners but mere stewards.
You then whispered: ?(I am a little curious how you'd feel if someone else
rereleased vpw's books and claimed to be the author of original works. No, don't answer-I don't expect a truthful answer to that one.)?
Actually, I believe this is the reason the PFAL videos suddenly appeared with a copyright notice in the 80?s. No one had bothered to do it, but it suddenly was proposed that someone outside the ministry could come along and copyright it for themselves if we didn?t do it. Such a theft may not have been all that likely to succeed, but it could cause a lot of paperwork hassles.
Your scenario is a little different, but has similarities. Actually I do cringe at the cyber copies of Dr?s books that are beginning to appear. I?ve tried scanning a page or two and that?s not too hard. It?s formatting and then proofreading that are gargantuan tasks. I fear that some will be inaccurate, or not the best editions, and that it will became difficult to tell with the cyber versions which ones are well done and well proofread.
When the TWI bookstore cut us off from sales several years ago, they probably had no idea how many people immediately bought scanners. I estimate at least one hundred. There are very few hard core believers in these books out there like me, BUT there are THOUSANDS of grads out there who want the PFAL books and they want their children to have them too. Only by reopening the bookstore and paper copies to us can they slow down the proliferation of inaccurate cyber copies of Dr?s books.
So, this is still not exactly your scenario. For what you proposed, I?d say the consumers of such products would be robbed of the opportunity to know of the entire PFAL teaching. But this is moot, because I believe that PFAL reached everyone it was supposed to reach, at least in the video/book form we were reached with. I think if your scenario took place not too much good would arise from it and not too much bad.
******
You then wrote:
?In case you missed it, side-comments made in a few tapes
here and there don't absolve one from responsibility of
giving proper credit where it is due. Several editions were
made of BOTH books. In ANY of them, credit could easily have
been added. vpw CHOSE not to do so. Since we were unaware
they were not wholly original books, we didn't pry when he
made comments that he learned a few things here and there
from other Christians. We believed vpw would never lie to
us, and that if his books contained work by someone else,
he'd CERTAINLY have told us. We were trusting fools that way.
Never again.?
I?d say with you, don?t ever again be ?trusting fools" THAT WAY.
?That way? is characterized in your paragraph above by:
?proper credit where it is due?
?credit could easily have been added?
?wholly original books?
?work by someone else?
This great homage to human originality is unfounded. Don?t you remember all the teaching we got on how great art was really spiritual, as well as great intellectual endeavors in letters and science and math? We were taught that originality on the 5-senses level was an illusion, and that humans don?t really think up anything. That we only know what we are taught. If it looks like we came up with an idea that we weren?t taught via the 5-senses, or sufficient pieces of it taught via the 5-senses, then the ?new? idea came from either holy spirit or unholy spirit.
Weren?t you taught this about originality? I was. And it fit quite well with what Dr taught us about him being taught by the men God guided him to.
You are magnifying a concept that need not, indeed MUST not be magnified in the family of God. When I invite you to ?come Back? to PFAL with trust, I don?t mean that kind of trust in Dr's originality.
I suggest you come back to PFAL with the attitude that it is NOT the original work of VPW, but that it originated OUTSIDE his mind (...remember the Pressed Down song ?It?s Outside??... ) and Dr was the organizer more than the originator. Come back to PFAL and trust that the real Author is God.
[This message was edited by Mike on July 07, 2003 at 17:46.]
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Mike
Tom Strange,
First of all, not all condescension is bad. Remember the figure of speech condescencio?
What?s bad is false condescension.
False condescension is where an attitude if superiority is displayed, but no goods or services come down from this superior level. Leaders who refuse to serve, but expect to BE served, exhibit this false condescension. But condescension can be a good word if there?s love and service that ?come down? or conDESCEND from above.
If I offer help that really is help, then the glory goes to God Who orchestrated my being able to deliver it. In other words, if I help, it?s not me reaching down or condescending to your level with this help. It?s more like GOD condescending to you lovingly, and He employs my services to deliver His help to you.
Like I said in posts above, I can?t take credit for bringing a good message to you, because God gets the credit, the glory. I not thinking of myself as condescending down to you, but to serving God?s product on a horizontal level.
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excathedra
would you be a leader, mikey ?
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rascal
Ahhh...soo now working for GOD is the excuse to be nasty and condecending.....now how come WE didn`t see it?
Mike is nasty to us for our own good, bless his heart!
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Mike
rascal,
I said tough. I match your toughness. Lighten up a bit and let's eee what we can discuss. Have you got any other beefs, other than the standard ones? Maybe I can help.
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Mike
Exy,
Well it seems like I?m doing it whether I ?would? or not.
Five senses wise I wasn?t cut out for leadership. I thought I was going as far as I dared as a twig leader.
I still shy away from the idea, but those who are 5-senses endowed greater than the average bear to be leaders are not doing it. What I?m doing here should have been said in 1985 by all the top OLGs in position at that time. They just didn?t have the Word pure enough, too much PFAL Word had slipped out by then, and they were overwhelmed.
I?m very much looking forward to seeing some better equipped OLG leaders jumping into the mastery project.
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Mike
wyteduv58,
You wrote: ?Mike, Would you like to get away from those books for awhile and just talk about something else? How about baseball, I love baseball and will talk about it with anyone interested. Its not a sin to enjoy other things in life and keeping God at the head right??
Well this thread has a goal.
In my life I have other things going on. In other threads I?ve had other things going on. Did you see my mirror thread?
Why Does A Mirror Reverse Left and Right But Not Up and Down?
http://www.gscafe.com/groupee/forums?q=Y&a...=4936053912&p=1
I have a few others like it in mind, but right now I?d like to finish the Ubiq itinerary I have laid out.
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rascal
Mike, don`t flatter yourself, you were never *tough* with me.... the only thing I ever saw was you getting nasty (possibly) as a distraction from having to truthfully answere our questions......
The only *toughness* I recall displaying is insisting that you explain the contradictions between your doctrine and the bible....
I don`t know what we CAN discuss....as you have not answered any of my questions so far....
Cathy
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wyteduv58
Well I guess what so many of the others say about you is true.
The only person you are interested in is Gawd Almighty Mike.
I guess it would be a real sin to talk to someone about something they like huh?
Its you, you, you an only you and what you have to say and the hell with the rest of us.
Oh well, maybe you're right, I'll go away for a while and maybe start my own thread.
How does this sound G.S.'ers " The Ubiquitously Hidden Meaning and Teaching of Baseball"
Dovey....proud owner of two low riders...Dovey's Doxies...... Dovey
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Mike
wyteduv58,
I happen to LOVE baseball. Not major league, any more anyway. I played baseball and softball when I was young and loved them. I saw "1961" happen in the current sports pages of the day, and on the radio, decades before Billy Crystal made the HBO movie. Have you seen "1961"? (or maybe it's "61") It's good! It's in video stores.
When I was a kid I thought that Mickey Mantle's kicking of dust would make designs on the infield that were God-breathed. ...almost
Nowadays I marvel at all the baseball figures of speech that have entered the English language. It's a lot like the railroad figures of speech that came in, and they both seemed to happen at the same time, starting in the mid 1800s.
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excathedra
damn... leaders always disappoint me....
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wyteduv58
Mike, There are times that you do a turn about and bless my heart. This is one of them. I love baseball at any level especially the level my son is at of course. I have the *61 tape and have watched it over and over. I love it. I also loved "Bang the Drum Slowly with Robert DeNiro and Michael Moriority" I have tried to buy that tape and can't find it anywhere.
Anyone know where I can get that tape, let me know.
L.A. #1 DODGER FAN
Dovey....proud owner of two low riders...Dovey's Doxies...... Dovey
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Mike
I had no idea that was a baseball movie.
There are VHS used video stores opening up all over for those switching to DVD, and it can prpbably be found there.
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excathedra
dovey, amazon.com says they have 5 in stock and they're getting more.....
just go there and type in a vhs search
good luck
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Mike
Exy,
There were some good leaders... Jesus Christ for example.
Sometimes someone who is not so good a leader at one time can hit a home run another...
Oops, I think I'm merging the playing fields here...
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Mike
rascal,
How about getting into some areas other than the ones that insult a man I happen to love and am thankful to God for. If you want to continually insult my teacher, go ahead, but then don?t complain I pay little attention to you.
How would you like it if someone insulted someone you were thankful to God for? How magnanimous would you be to such a disrespectful and rude person?
If you want to beat on the sex thing or the plagiarism thing, don?t expect my attention. I have said several times I closed my mind to taunts like yours on those two subjects. If those are the only things you can come to that table with, I suggest you get a life and quit bothering me.
If you want to learn what happened to us all, why we were so convinced of SOMETHING good that made it worth dedicating our lives to it, and why it then so quickly soured, then I?d love to help. The reason I can help is because I saw nobody else was doing it, and I scoured the tape/print record to find out where we missed Dr?s message.
When we get that message intact, in detail, then many issues will take care of themselves. It worked for me. This is the great story of deliverance I have to report on that happened in my life. I was plagued with confusion as to why and how so many good leaders one time, suddenly turned into such complete jerks a few short years later. I had lots of questions plaguing me by 1988-98 an these lines. I can now forgive the leaders who hurt me.
I see a bigger picture now. I described a bit of this in the ?Saving Private Ryan? method of forgiveness about one third the way down this thread page:
http://www.gscafe.com/groupee/forums?q=Y&a...=8506086013&p=3
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wyteduv58
tHANKS EXXIE, I will go there and look. Did you see that movie, Ex? Mike if you didn't see it you probably would love it. The movie isn't just about baseball, its also about love.
One man's (Michael) love for his fellow player (Robert) and how this love brings a bunch of hateful team mates together to build a winning team.
If you can get it Mike watch it I really think you'll love it.
If you do let me know ok?
Dovey....proud owner of two low riders...Dovey's Doxies...... Dovey
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Nottawayfer
Quote from Mike to Rascal:
Kitchen getting toooooo hot on this EX-WAY website Mike?
Kind words can be short and easy to speak, but their echoes are truly endless.
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