Grace? GRACE??? Well YEEEEAH ....duh....it`s ALL about grace, Mike. As far as I can figure it out, what you propose is a form of works to make God either like us more, or work better on our behalf is it not?
That is why we ask....since you refuse to acknowledge that the *galations* method is worthey of determining ones spiritual quality...and you refuse to acknowledge any signs, miracles and wonders, things that God promised would follow *those who believe*...
What proof do you offer us that the *works* you propose we embark upon... are of God......... and of what possible benefit could they be to people who currently enjoy the blessings of God`s goodness in their daily lives already?
Cathy
[This message was edited by rascal on July 08, 2003 at 13:47.]
That is just how the twisted mind of twi works cathy.
They are more loved by God , superiour in everything deserve more more money and a better lifestyle because they WORK for God more than anyone eles your see.
Because they work for God , the lowly "believer needs to work for them to be blessed by God.
Unless of course they get busted and some lesser who the hell do you think you are leaf believer, reminds them of what the bible may say is truth and error in life THEN>>>>>> of course it is ALL ABOUT THE GRACE OF GOD!!!
but just until they go away or get sent away , and the normal course of God loves me more because I am who I am in twi so obey can continue.
quote:I?m not so sure about the universality of your observation. I do know of a few who appreciate my posts, and I expect there are a few who haven?t made themselves known to me...
Mike, I thought seaspray was your only fan. I would venture to say that if someone hasn't revealed that they like your stand on matering pfal, then they aren't out there. Sorry I don't mean to burst your bubble, but I just hate to see dead horses beaten.
Kind words can be short and easy to speak, but their echoes are truly endless.
I would suggest that GRACE is what ought to be "mastered", not more and more slicing and dicing of some musty words of man, masquerading as the "Latter Day" Word of God...
Mike--why don't you go MASTER the book of Hebrews? You are a closet legalist, with all your "demands"...I need what God Almighty provided IN the person of the LORD Jesus Christ--you think He lied when it is written we are complete IN HIM???!!!
YOU (and I) are instucted to labor to enter into REST, not secret, esoteric, dual-dichotomous freaking HEAD-KNOWLEDGE..........
Mike would that group of silent fellows be your resposibility??
You assumed I was your responsibility, and then threw me away when I didnt agree with you. boohoo
your wrong about me , could it be a fantasy?
These people need to speak up now , you the oh wise strong leader need their support and encouragement like no other time in the history of this thread.
Why would they be afraid ? perfect love casts out fear and you do it all for Love right MIKE?
mike I do believe you will love this and use it to play the evil of GS posters and your mission from God to save them BUT vpw said although a believer can stand alone with God , WE DO NOT HAVE TOO because .....blah blah ..
are you standing alone???
vpw said it isnt neccesary ... hmmm??? what is wrong? time for a check up from the neck up???
quote:You haven't answered my question about where that story was from. I've learned to check the TVT-PFAL dichotomy routinely, when I hear stories of grad experiences like this. Likewise, when I hear stories of passages in the books, I routinely go there and look for the Natural/Factual - Spiritual/Divine dichotomy manifested in the special vocabulary words Dr used to convey this dichotomy.
Now Mike, I have been rather busy lately and I jsut can't get to all the questions as soon as I would like to. I have to establish mu proirities amd manange my time in these kind of matters.
But rest assured that I have not forgotten you. I gave you a hint earlier but you must have missed it. Maybe if you go back and read between the lines in the contra-context of what I have posted then you will be more in tune with what I am really saying here. Till then I guess you will just have to wait until I have the time to answer your question.
Goey
"Most of my fondest memories in TWI never really happened"
You know twi went back to pfal after they nixed the wap class. Don't you think your efforts could be much more appreciated there?
It makes me think of the song "50 Ways to Leave Your Lover." Just for the record, I was a KID when this song came out. My version of this song would be called "20 Ways to Leave Your Way Brain."
1. Kick your believing in pfal to the curb, Herb.
2. pfal snake oil causes much mental toil, Doyle.
Anybody else got some they could add??
Kind words can be short and easy to speak, but their echoes are truly endless.
[This message was edited by Wayfer Not! on July 08, 2003 at 17:23.]
[This message was edited by Wayfer Not! on July 08, 2003 at 18:53.]
For someone who criticizes others over typos, it would be nice if you would spell my name right.
Your ignorance about plagiarism explains your glossing over of Wierwille's wholesale theft of others' hard work. Please, continue defending him. The more you defend Wierwille's plagiarism, the easier it is to prove.
I think I was getting ahead of myself with saying wap is nixed. I just remember them saying they were redoing the foundational class video at the ac-not-so-spashul. Maybe they will keep the name as wap so they don't have to make new binders, etc. They are mastering pfal though, so I thought Mike would like to join them....
Kind words can be short and easy to speak, but their echoes are truly endless.
Seriously I have no clue it is one of those code words Mike uses , but I didnt take the advanced class on mastering anything, maybe that is how he caught the tvt thing ya know?
they used to say people could go blind but now it is a possible tvt.
Mike you really should see about the prescription for this I mean geez although you warn and warn about this tvt problem you have encountered I have at times doubted about whther anyone really listens to you.
oh no can we get a tvt from thinking about what the hell a tvt could be like?
See i just get so frightened discussing these dep matters and now we have to think about the fact we messed around with this thread and mastering and caught a dam tvt.
it might be a drink from a bag with leaves in it which you steep while watching a show on the tv.
I hope so... but all the talk of Mikes mastering something got me paranoid of the possible chance of a disease because you know how the medical language uses those three letter words to state bad bad things no one can understand.
spending years mastering cant be good for ya, Mike is their any drainage in your tvt? eeeww that is gross see it is out of control it is this thread once again has to be about the tvt problem Mike has I just want to know can I catch it if I promise I wont master anything?
does everyone that has read this thread now have to get a shot or something? how freaking embarrasing that will be for Mike .
hey man I understand it is good you said something we can not allow these tvt to continue unchecked and without treatment.
do you want to know why I am so angry at you MIKE?
it isnt about the doctrine I could give a rats *** about the bible wars here at GS..
it is truly the emotional part of leaving pfal behind.
Some go away thinking life with a mission from God will continue on but better because you have your own personal offshoot or fellowship and nothing really changes for you.
Some stop believing in God altogether.
Some have died at the thought of it all.
some find a church and make a new way to do what they want in life.
me mj412 wonders , just freaking wonders what the f@ck happened to my life and why is such a large chuck of it still thinking about the bible in the same terms twi taught why do I think I should and shouldnt be a certain way because of twi?
TWENTY FREAKING YEAR!
then you come in and start declaring a new and revised version of pfal.
it has been enough to make me think we were all nuts and cant get the hell away from the sh#T .
You manipulate the very words I am still trying to get well from and make a whole new disease form in my head.
This time around I really cant tell you how angry I am about a person stating what God says with a arrogant pompous and then fear based message.
it is like pouring salt in a bleeding wound to me MIke, and the fact you freaking love every minute of it makes it worse.
before you say anything in reply Mike I know who I pray to if that is all that is left, and it isnt pfal or vpw or you so Kiss my *** if you can have a better day at my explaining to you why I post on your thread.
You wrote: ?I have no problem with the positive motivation. It just ain't a law.?
What is your definition of law? It seems you reserve this word for something more special than Dr does. If that?s the case then to read Dr?s books you will need to adopt his vocabulary perspective on this word. Otherwise you can?t say you are understanding what you disagree with in the books.
I?m not saying your definition of ?law? is bad for you, it?s just that when examining Dr?s books we need to know if he used any words differently than mainstream dictionaries.
What would qualify for ?law? in your book as is?
*******
You quoted me thusly:
?Another totally critical factor to bring into this mix is the difference between believing and mental assent.?
And then you commented:
?A distinction Wierwille stole from Kenyon, incidentally.?
To which I was shocked. I still am interested where you saw the deed of ownership.
But moving on here, let?s just note here that if this mental assent versus believing dichotomy can also be found in Kenyon, then it might have value, and if you?re a Kenyon admirer, it might have a lot of value.
Then you again quoted me regarding mental assent and believing:
?The two can be extremely close, both to examinations from without by others, and to examinations from within by ourselves.?
And then you commented:
?More evasion. This is the standard "blame the believer" approach whenever the law of believing doesn't work. You didn't REALLY believe, you see. It was just mental assent. Had you really believed, the law of believing would have worked. ... H-O-R-S-E M-A-N-U-R-E.?
I agree that the TVT had fostered a bunch of leaders to act like jerks AT TIMES in handling situations like the one you described. Something would go wrong, and the easiest culprit 5-senses wise, to pin the blame on was the grad?s mental assent not growing to the level of believing.
Yes, you pointed out an actual abuse that I witnessed in the ministry as the 80?s progressed. It was not so much a 70?s thing, though.
Now, I ask you, just because some people during a small span of time abused the concept of this mental assent versus believing dichotomy, should we throw it out?
Remember, it?s in Kenyon too, so it might be good even from an antiPFAL perspective.
I?m sure the mental assent versus believing dichotomy is VERY valuable to keep in the mix, and that?s why I mentioned it.
I promise to not abuse anyone with it.
I?m convinced that the majority of what we OLGs did in the70?s was mental assent and NOT believing. At times we hit the believing strides, in limited areas of our lives, but it was like our operation of the ?other? manifestations: hit or miss.
I?ve come to raise my standards on what I regard to be believing, based on how I see it handled in the PFAL books.
Galen has been posting a quote from George Meuller on praying (believing) for something and NEVER stopping until you get it. What we were doing in the 70?s and 80?s was more mental assent than believing because when the stuff hit the fan in the later 80?s the ?believing? suddenly stopped in SO many people and/or in SO many areas. That means it wasn?t believing.
Believing latches on and never lets go.
Mental assent is where the 5-sense circumstances are conducive, and ?it? LOOKS agreeable, and it feels fun to think it, and it seems to fit, and there?s no harm... so I?ll say with my mouth that I believe it.
BUT when the circumstances suddenly change, and it?s not so openly agreeable, and none of my friends believe it any more, and it stirs up lots of not so fun associations, and ... so I?ll say with my mouth that I do NOT believe it.
No, I do not propose we use this mental assent versus believing dichotomy to play one-upmanship games on each other. But believing should be thought of as something that is bigger than mental assent, even though they may look the same to the senses under non-trying circumstances.
I do propose that the concept of mental assent be utilized in rightly dividing what Dr wrote us, and in rightly dividing our operation of the law of believing in our own mind and lives.
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Yanagisawa
Did you say "get the ball rolling" or get the kaballa rolling...for it sounds like that's your current freak - some sort of hidden, mystical kaballa-esque gnostic esotericism. I'm fascinated with you
rascal
Grace? GRACE??? Well YEEEEAH ....duh....it`s ALL about grace, Mike. As far as I can figure it out, what you propose is a form of works to make God either like us more, or work better on our behalf is it not?
That is why we ask....since you refuse to acknowledge that the *galations* method is worthey of determining ones spiritual quality...and you refuse to acknowledge any signs, miracles and wonders, things that God promised would follow *those who believe*...
What proof do you offer us that the *works* you propose we embark upon... are of God......... and of what possible benefit could they be to people who currently enjoy the blessings of God`s goodness in their daily lives already?
Cathy
[This message was edited by rascal on July 08, 2003 at 13:47.]
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mj412
That is just how the twisted mind of twi works cathy.
They are more loved by God , superiour in everything deserve more more money and a better lifestyle because they WORK for God more than anyone eles your see.
Because they work for God , the lowly "believer needs to work for them to be blessed by God.
Unless of course they get busted and some lesser who the hell do you think you are leaf believer, reminds them of what the bible may say is truth and error in life THEN>>>>>> of course it is ALL ABOUT THE GRACE OF GOD!!!
but just until they go away or get sent away , and the normal course of God loves me more because I am who I am in twi so obey can continue.
it was a cult
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Nottawayfer
Mike, I thought seaspray was your only fan. I would venture to say that if someone hasn't revealed that they like your stand on matering pfal, then they aren't out there. Sorry I don't mean to burst your bubble, but I just hate to see dead horses beaten.
Kind words can be short and easy to speak, but their echoes are truly endless.
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alfakat
I would suggest that GRACE is what ought to be "mastered", not more and more slicing and dicing of some musty words of man, masquerading as the "Latter Day" Word of God...
Mike--why don't you go MASTER the book of Hebrews? You are a closet legalist, with all your "demands"...I need what God Almighty provided IN the person of the LORD Jesus Christ--you think He lied when it is written we are complete IN HIM???!!!
YOU (and I) are instucted to labor to enter into REST, not secret, esoteric, dual-dichotomous freaking HEAD-KNOWLEDGE..........
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mj412
Mike would that group of silent fellows be your resposibility??
You assumed I was your responsibility, and then threw me away when I didnt agree with you. boohoo
your wrong about me , could it be a fantasy?
These people need to speak up now , you the oh wise strong leader need their support and encouragement like no other time in the history of this thread.
Why would they be afraid ? perfect love casts out fear and you do it all for Love right MIKE?
mike I do believe you will love this and use it to play the evil of GS posters and your mission from God to save them BUT vpw said although a believer can stand alone with God , WE DO NOT HAVE TOO because .....blah blah ..
are you standing alone???
vpw said it isnt neccesary ... hmmm??? what is wrong? time for a check up from the neck up???
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Tom Strange
Hey Mikee!
Do I have to "donate" again for wap if I'm a piffle grad?
Also... it's almost noon your time... time to take the Haldol...
I looked behind the curtain and saw that it was bad
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GarthP2000
He's bbaaccckkkk!! Ol' Raffie's BACK!! WHOOO HOOOO!!
Now the fun *really* begins!
Prophet Emeritus of THE,
and Wandering CyberUU Hippie,
Garth P.
www.gapstudioweb.com
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Goey
Mike,
Now Mike, I have been rather busy lately and I jsut can't get to all the questions as soon as I would like to. I have to establish mu proirities amd manange my time in these kind of matters.
But rest assured that I have not forgotten you. I gave you a hint earlier but you must have missed it. Maybe if you go back and read between the lines in the contra-context of what I have posted then you will be more in tune with what I am really saying here. Till then I guess you will just have to wait until I have the time to answer your question.
Goey
"Most of my fondest memories in TWI never really happened"
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Tom Strange
man... what is TVT?
Mike, did you take your meds?
I looked behind the curtain and saw that it was bad
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Nottawayfer
Mike,
You know twi went back to pfal after they nixed the wap class. Don't you think your efforts could be much more appreciated there?
It makes me think of the song "50 Ways to Leave Your Lover." Just for the record, I was a KID when this song came out. My version of this song would be called "20 Ways to Leave Your Way Brain."
1. Kick your believing in pfal to the curb, Herb.
2. pfal snake oil causes much mental toil, Doyle.
Anybody else got some they could add??
Kind words can be short and easy to speak, but their echoes are truly endless.
[This message was edited by Wayfer Not! on July 08, 2003 at 17:23.]
[This message was edited by Wayfer Not! on July 08, 2003 at 18:53.]
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Tom Strange
but... it's on their website... wap... right there with all of the new exciting pictures...
I looked behind the curtain and saw that it was bad
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Raf
For someone who criticizes others over typos, it would be nice if you would spell my name right.
Your ignorance about plagiarism explains your glossing over of Wierwille's wholesale theft of others' hard work. Please, continue defending him. The more you defend Wierwille's plagiarism, the easier it is to prove.
Raf
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Nottawayfer
Tom S:
I think I was getting ahead of myself with saying wap is nixed. I just remember them saying they were redoing the foundational class video at the ac-not-so-spashul. Maybe they will keep the name as wap so they don't have to make new binders, etc. They are mastering pfal though, so I thought Mike would like to join them....
Kind words can be short and easy to speak, but their echoes are truly endless.
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bowtwi
WayferNOT - You said:
Buy yourself your own home, Jerome - and set yourself free.
B - Better
O - Off
W - Without
t - the
w - way
i - international
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Nottawayfer
BOWTWI (and aren't we all?),
Good one!!
Kind words can be short and easy to speak, but their echoes are truly endless.
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mj412
You better obey or it is mark and avoid, loydd.
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bowtwi
Just say no to the blue form, Norm.
Run fast - do not tarry, Larry!
B - Better
O - Off
W - Without
t - the
w - way
i - international
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mj412
Gain fifteen percent, Kent!
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mj412
Take your life back, Jack!
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mj412
I guess my way through this thread so I think
tvt is a std.
am I right?
any more guesses?
Seriously I have no clue it is one of those code words Mike uses , but I didnt take the advanced class on mastering anything, maybe that is how he caught the tvt thing ya know?
they used to say people could go blind but now it is a possible tvt.
Mike you really should see about the prescription for this I mean geez although you warn and warn about this tvt problem you have encountered I have at times doubted about whther anyone really listens to you.
oh no can we get a tvt from thinking about what the hell a tvt could be like?
See i just get so frightened discussing these dep matters and now we have to think about the fact we messed around with this thread and mastering and caught a dam tvt.
no good can come of this no good at all.
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Nottawayfer
MJ,
You are too darn funny!!! I am cracking up......tvt...std.....LMAO!!!!!
Kind words can be short and easy to speak, but their echoes are truly endless.
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mj412
it might be a drink from a bag with leaves in it which you steep while watching a show on the tv.
I hope so... but all the talk of Mikes mastering something got me paranoid of the possible chance of a disease because you know how the medical language uses those three letter words to state bad bad things no one can understand.
spending years mastering cant be good for ya, Mike is their any drainage in your tvt? eeeww that is gross see it is out of control it is this thread once again has to be about the tvt problem Mike has I just want to know can I catch it if I promise I wont master anything?
does everyone that has read this thread now have to get a shot or something? how freaking embarrasing that will be for Mike .
hey man I understand it is good you said something we can not allow these tvt to continue unchecked and without treatment.
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mj412
ok I have had a day.
seriously me tho ....
do you want to know why I am so angry at you MIKE?
it isnt about the doctrine I could give a rats *** about the bible wars here at GS..
it is truly the emotional part of leaving pfal behind.
Some go away thinking life with a mission from God will continue on but better because you have your own personal offshoot or fellowship and nothing really changes for you.
Some stop believing in God altogether.
Some have died at the thought of it all.
some find a church and make a new way to do what they want in life.
me mj412 wonders , just freaking wonders what the f@ck happened to my life and why is such a large chuck of it still thinking about the bible in the same terms twi taught why do I think I should and shouldnt be a certain way because of twi?
TWENTY FREAKING YEAR!
then you come in and start declaring a new and revised version of pfal.
it has been enough to make me think we were all nuts and cant get the hell away from the sh#T .
You manipulate the very words I am still trying to get well from and make a whole new disease form in my head.
This time around I really cant tell you how angry I am about a person stating what God says with a arrogant pompous and then fear based message.
it is like pouring salt in a bleeding wound to me MIke, and the fact you freaking love every minute of it makes it worse.
before you say anything in reply Mike I know who I pray to if that is all that is left, and it isnt pfal or vpw or you so Kiss my *** if you can have a better day at my explaining to you why I post on your thread.
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Mike
Rafael 1969
You wrote: ?I have no problem with the positive motivation. It just ain't a law.?
What is your definition of law? It seems you reserve this word for something more special than Dr does. If that?s the case then to read Dr?s books you will need to adopt his vocabulary perspective on this word. Otherwise you can?t say you are understanding what you disagree with in the books.
I?m not saying your definition of ?law? is bad for you, it?s just that when examining Dr?s books we need to know if he used any words differently than mainstream dictionaries.
What would qualify for ?law? in your book as is?
*******
You quoted me thusly:
?Another totally critical factor to bring into this mix is the difference between believing and mental assent.?
And then you commented:
?A distinction Wierwille stole from Kenyon, incidentally.?
To which I was shocked. I still am interested where you saw the deed of ownership.
But moving on here, let?s just note here that if this mental assent versus believing dichotomy can also be found in Kenyon, then it might have value, and if you?re a Kenyon admirer, it might have a lot of value.
Then you again quoted me regarding mental assent and believing:
?The two can be extremely close, both to examinations from without by others, and to examinations from within by ourselves.?
And then you commented:
?More evasion. This is the standard "blame the believer" approach whenever the law of believing doesn't work. You didn't REALLY believe, you see. It was just mental assent. Had you really believed, the law of believing would have worked. ... H-O-R-S-E M-A-N-U-R-E.?
I agree that the TVT had fostered a bunch of leaders to act like jerks AT TIMES in handling situations like the one you described. Something would go wrong, and the easiest culprit 5-senses wise, to pin the blame on was the grad?s mental assent not growing to the level of believing.
Yes, you pointed out an actual abuse that I witnessed in the ministry as the 80?s progressed. It was not so much a 70?s thing, though.
Now, I ask you, just because some people during a small span of time abused the concept of this mental assent versus believing dichotomy, should we throw it out?
Remember, it?s in Kenyon too, so it might be good even from an antiPFAL perspective.
I?m sure the mental assent versus believing dichotomy is VERY valuable to keep in the mix, and that?s why I mentioned it.
I promise to not abuse anyone with it.
I?m convinced that the majority of what we OLGs did in the70?s was mental assent and NOT believing. At times we hit the believing strides, in limited areas of our lives, but it was like our operation of the ?other? manifestations: hit or miss.
I?ve come to raise my standards on what I regard to be believing, based on how I see it handled in the PFAL books.
Galen has been posting a quote from George Meuller on praying (believing) for something and NEVER stopping until you get it. What we were doing in the 70?s and 80?s was more mental assent than believing because when the stuff hit the fan in the later 80?s the ?believing? suddenly stopped in SO many people and/or in SO many areas. That means it wasn?t believing.
Believing latches on and never lets go.
Mental assent is where the 5-sense circumstances are conducive, and ?it? LOOKS agreeable, and it feels fun to think it, and it seems to fit, and there?s no harm... so I?ll say with my mouth that I believe it.
BUT when the circumstances suddenly change, and it?s not so openly agreeable, and none of my friends believe it any more, and it stirs up lots of not so fun associations, and ... so I?ll say with my mouth that I do NOT believe it.
No, I do not propose we use this mental assent versus believing dichotomy to play one-upmanship games on each other. But believing should be thought of as something that is bigger than mental assent, even though they may look the same to the senses under non-trying circumstances.
I do propose that the concept of mental assent be utilized in rightly dividing what Dr wrote us, and in rightly dividing our operation of the law of believing in our own mind and lives.
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