I agree that putting flesh, ANYONE?S flesh, on a pedestal is asking for disaster.
Fortunately it?s hard for us to put Paul?s flesh on a pedestal since he?s 2000 years dead. We never met him.
I?m real careful (and successful) at NOT getting into personality worship of Paul, even though I was accused of it by non-grad Christians in the 70?s a lot. I was totally successful at separating the words form the man. The words are from God, and not Paul. Paul was a servant, a worker, and God originated them and taught them to Paul. Of course Jesus Christ IS intimately involved in this process.
Now with VPW it?s a similar situation of separating the words from the man. HOWEVER, this time it?s no so easy. He IS dead, but not in our memories. Many of us DID CERTAINLY get into a flesh worship trip towards him back in the good old days, and that got worse as time went on.
This does take hard intellectual work, even in the emotional category, to separate the words form the man, but when we do we find that God was the real author, and Dr a mere servant, a helper.
Rafael I?m completely able to type with my mouth closed.
Mistakes are an interesting thing. When I studied the lying list, the notion of mistakes often entered the fray. There are some odd things about mistakes that I haven?t yet presented.
The detection of mistakes is more complicated than people think. A casual awareness of mistakes will omit some crucial notions.
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One such notion I learned from commercial map making. In order to protect the copyrights on maps, the owners sometimes will deliberately introduce an a ?error? in some small side street or brook or some small item like that. This ?error? is then registered, along with the rest of the map in the copyright process. If someone copies their map, this error is usually picked up unawares.
Is this an error in the usual sense? It would sure look like an error to a motorist using the map and finding that Elm Street is a dead end in actuality, but connects to Maple Street in on the map.
Is it a lie? Does it hurt any one?
Does God have such license? Is there ANY remotely similar setup where God might put something down in a way that LOOKS like an error, but is deliberate on His part? This might take some time to thoroughly answer, so I suggest some pondering.
**********************
Here?s another:
When I was a about 5 or 6 years old, I asked my father how electricity worked. I was only remotely interested in the wall socket power, but flashlights were pretty cool, and electric trains were the ULTIMATE toys.
TO help me, my dad took a vacuum cleaner hose and lifted up one end, and held a marble in his hand. He told me that the marble was just like an electron, and the hose was just like a wire. He then dropped the marble into the hose opening and rumble-rattle-rrrrm OUT CAME the marble out the other side. He told me THAT?s how electricity works. It helped me for several years, until I wondered how magnetism worked, and the model broke down, and I learned the next level of how electronics works.
Now, did my dad lie? Was his explanation an error? Did it hurt or help me? It helped.
**********************
Next:
There is a situation in language where something can be said that?s not true to fact, yet it comes from a perfect, non-lying, non-error committing, non hurting, helpful source. When such source issues a statement that?s not true to fact, then it?s a figure of speech.
So, whenever an apparent error is discovered, one of the tasks facing responsible researchers is a thorough going over in the category of figures of speech. This is hard work and takes a lot of time.
*********************
So errors are not so cut and dry. I go REAL slow when hearing of errors, and for good reason.
[This message was edited by Mike on April 05, 2003 at 17:41.]
I apologize for posting off topic messages on this thread. I do believe my posts are related to your topic, but only indirectly (namely: your thread is an extension of your thesis, which I believe to be flawed. My posts have basically focused on the flaws in your thesis, not the direct thread topic). So I won't interfere anymore except to respond to your last post:
"2+2=5" is always an error, cut and dried. I will concede that more of my "Actual Errors" list will be resolved. But not all of it. That's where you and I disagree. I have several examples of which I am extremely confident (and unlike you, I will not resort to "God told me I'm right about this" in order to bolster my argument).
That's another topic for another thread. I believe your handling of "apparent errors," if carried out honestly, will lead you to the conclusion that Wierwille made mistakes in the writing of his books, mistakes that disqualify those books from the very definition of "God-breathed" contained therein. Take all the time you want, but don't dodge. Don't distract. Don't evade. And when you finally conclude the error is an error, just admit it. It will open a world to you about which you know very little right now.
I can see the value of Wierwille's books without adopting your thesis. You cannot see the value of abandoning your thesis until you do so. Good luck.
First, let me clarify that I was not just singling you out for worshipping Paul. I personally believe that much of fundamental Protestantnism does it; for reasons they may not understand, that go deeper than they realize. But basically, my limited research and understanding traces it back to the reformation where people pulled away from anything Roman Catholic, and as they celebrated Peter being the head of the church way back when, it was then transferred to Paul.
Some may wonder what's wrong with that, since many have a strong (and I am not saying it is unjustified) bias against Roman Catholisim..but it is no more honest than taking a stance against any doctrine learned in TWI, just because one learned it in TWI.
You said, "
Fortunately it?s hard for us to put Paul?s flesh on a pedestal since he?s 2000 years dead. We never met him."
Secondly, I do strongly disagree with what you said, providing I understood you correctly, that it is impossible to worship a dead guy. I think it is more than possible since his letters are still with us.
I don't know how many times I heard while in TWI, when talking about witnessing to someone, that they could be the 'next apostle Paul.' Being the next apostle Paul was something that was on people's minds, the people who were around when I got involved with TWI and everywhere I went after that.
I am not saying that there is inherently anything wrong with that...it is just the natural progression where Paul's letters are more magnified over the words of Jesus in the gospels.
TWI provided a breeding ground for that in separating the gospels from us in saying that they (the gospels) were not addressed to us. As being much younger then, and more of a pea brain, I was confused in that how could I share the gospel if it was not addressed to me??
TWI was built upon the implication that VP was also an apostle and at least a man of god that had been taught the word as it hadn't been known since the first century church..via revelation from God just like Paul. Also, since Paul was of the first century..........
I can say that in my mind, and for those around me while in TWI..many of us drew comparisions between Paul and VP...and I think we were supposed to...but I guess that can be considered subjective as some can/will say they never saw that.
But a man can be worshipped posthumously. His life, his works, words..all can become the object of being idolized and worshipped...a bodily presence is not needed for worship...
and case in point to prove one does not need a bodily presence to be found the subject of worship, I point to Jesus Christ....
It is the case that ?mistakes that disqualify those books from the very definition of "God-breathed" contained therein? pertains to each and every book says ?Holy Bible? on the cover. No exceptions. They're all reconstructions of the originals.
It is this complication I have been addressing, and God has solved.
I agree the TWI Verbal Tradition (TVT) got way out of hand on both Paul and Victor Paul. We got out of balance on LOTS of other things as well: grace liscense, guideline law, dicipline, tough love, etc., just like all other churches. The first century church got out of balance and became RC.
I've found a most beautiful chapter in Dr's last book called about Zacheus. It?s called ?Climbing High to Seek Truth.? It really dispels the myth that Dr?s teaching was bereft of the Lordship of Jesus Christ. That DID happen in TVT, but not Dr?s teachings.
Here are some of his last words to us, from that last year, and his last book.
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On page 207 he writes:
?As we pass through life, we must climb ever higher and higher in our hearts and minds with the greatness of God?s Word. We must always keep progressing to see more and more of God?s Word and His promises manifested in our daily lives.?
****
.....too many people (me included) had ended their search for more and more. We were resting on our laurels. That is... we older leader grads (OLG) were resting on our laurels. Oops! I don?t like the looks of THAT acronym. It looks too mych like OLD! And, gosh! I hope Ossifer Zix from the Acromyn Enfrocement Police (AEP) doesn?t see this before I have a chance to ski daddle outta here (SDOH). He?s gonna git me fer THIS one fer shir!
*************************************
On page 212-213 he writes:
?All I know is that the Word of God says Zacchaeus was a publican and he was rich. We learn one other thing about Zacchaeus in this account and that is that he was motivated by a wonderful desire: He wanted to see Jesus.
?Luke 19:3:
And he sought to see Jesus who he was; and could not for the press, because he was little of stature.
?Zacchaeus wanted to see Jesus-who he was. Perhaps it was simple curiosity prompting him. The text doesn't say. But whatever the reason, at least he wanted to see Jesus. I wish that today, across our nation, there were more people who wanted to see Jesus. When people ask to see Jesus today, we've got to show him. When they want to see Jesus, who he is, we can show them God's Word and the greatness of Jesus Christ's position in the Word.
?Zacchaeus wanted to see Jesus, but he couldn't. The reason he couldn't see him or get to him was for "the press." That doesn't mean the news media, such as newspaper, radio, or television reporters. "Press" means "numbers of people." There were so many people sur-rounding Jesus that Zacchaeus couldn't get a glimpse of him.
?Verse 3:
. . . because he was little of stature.
?Zacchaeus was short. The biggest thing about him was his desire to see Jesus.
?Verse 4:
And he [Zacchaeus] ran before [ahead of where Jesus was walking], and climbed up into a sycomore tree to see him: for he [Jesus] was to pass that way.
?Zacchaeus climbed up into a sycamore tree in order to get a view of this noted person, Jesus, whom people were talking about. Zacchaeus took the necessary action to fulfill his desire. That's very important. If you want to see Jesus Christ through God's Word, you need to move, take action. Zacchaeus took the initiative and climbed up into that sycamore tree.?
**********
Ten times I count the phrase ?see Jesus? in these two pages.
Couple this with the introductory paragraph I gave you from p.207, and it's progressing to SEE JESUS that he?s urging with us OLGs to do. It?s for other grads too.
*************************************
On pages 214 and 215 he writes:
I want to tell you, whenever there are men and women desiring to know the Lord Jesus Christ, they will have that desire met according to God?s Word. Those people who hunger and thirst after righteousness shall (absolutely) be filled. That?s right. What an example of fulfilling this promise from this record in God?s Word.?
****
Again, he?s telling us to hunger for the Lord Jesus Christ.
*************************************
On pages 221 and 222 he writes:
?Jesus Christ is a physician of the soul. A physician is not needed when one is healthy. Jesus Christ comes to seek and to save, to give wholeness to those in spiritual need. He seeks those who are lost-men and women who need the Lord Jesus Christ. He has no problem ex-tending himself to you and to me, because we are the people he came to seek and to save. Hebrews 7:25 says that Jesus Christ is "able also to save them to the uttermost that come unto God by him." Jesus Christ is always ready to meet you. He met Zacchaeus, who had climbed up in a tree to see him. Wherever there are men and women who really want to hear, Jesus Christ is always there.
?There is no one so low that the arms of the Almighty are not underneath him. There is no one so high that the arms of the Almighty are not over him. And there is no one other than His Son who can save people. For there is no other name given among men whereby we must be saved.
?Ladies and gentlemen, whatever you have to do to know the Lord Jesus Christ, do it. Wherever you have to go to learn about him, do it. The one great driving force of your soul should be to know Jesus Christ. Who is he? The only way you'll ever know who Jesus Christ is is to come to God's Word. The Word makes known Jesus Christ. The Word tells you who he is. It is that Word which brings you to a knowledge of salvation.
?What do you need to hear? God's Word. Jesus Christ was that Word, the Living Word, who met Zacchaeus that day in Jericho. And he brought Zacchaeus to the great reality of being a believer, because Jesus was willing to teach him and Zacchaeus was meek to learn. If you want to experience the truth of God's Word, climb high to seek truth. God always has and always will seek out and teach those who are looking to Jesus Christ as their savior and lord.?
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When all these were coming out in print, we OLGs were all on our own trips, all imbalanced in one way or another, and these things slipped right by us (or out of us).
I tried to show some of these kinds of things to the CES bulldozers in the early 90?s after they had been blowing the whistle on how the TVT had lost track of the Lordship of Jesus Christ. I believed them for a few years, until I found a ton of things like these quotes.
The reason I believed them at first, in the late 80?s, is because I clearly saw it the TVT, but I hadn?t yet learned the VAST separation, the VAST difference between what got put into print from what went on behind the scenes. This is the case for other things that got out of balance besides the lordship deal. (Exy, this is for you)
The print record, and also the tape, has lots of things that we OLGs were learning how to tune out. We would say things in our heads like:
?Yeah, yeah, that?s just Dr?
or
?How many times have I heard THIS before??
or
?He doesn?t really mean that. He just mis-spoke, but I?ve a hot line to the Father and I?ll correct it immediately and just forget about it.?
Us OLGs have some accounting to do. Hows come we didn?t see the VAST difference between TVT and the Word of God that God was teaching to Dr and Dr was getting into print with our help? How?s come we didn?t see that VAST difference? Because we got 'Sower-and-Seed'ed that?s how! We drifted away from the pure Word in PFAL and went back to tradition and KJV "research" on our own with no 1942 promise to back us up. And our fruit tells exactly which 3 of the 4 "Sower and Seed" categories we fit into, when ?all nine all the time? is used as the standard which we were shooting for.
We got work to do. Thank God for His patience with us.
.
[This message was edited by Mike on April 05, 2003 at 19:34.]
[This message was edited by Mike on April 05, 2003 at 19:54.]
I've got bad news for you. This isn't a Ubiquitously Hidden Teaching. It's nothing more than VP's style of delivery. I think you mentioned that your first impression was that Vic was just being flashy. As LarryP has kindly revealed, you got it right the first time.
I heard this from a Corps grad years ago. VP told them that whenever they assigned a title to a teaching, it should include elements of human dan divine or physical and spiritual.
It wasn't some deep spiritual message preserved for later generations. It was just his way of coming up with a catchy title. Call it showmanship, call it literary style. But don't call it "important".
Then I suppose the difference is in the definition of what VP meant by seeking the Lord Jesus Christ and His Lordship.
I will freely admit that VP spoke a lot about Christ. Session 7..wasnt' that the 'born again session?" "I don't care how you got the baby..I just want to see the baby?"
If he hadn't spoken about Jesus Christ, I know I would never have sat through a Twig fellowship OR the class, since at that time, Jesus Christ was central to me since I came into TWI believing Jesus Christ was God.
Yet, in those same collaterals, VP said that the Word of God, the bible took the place of the absent Christ.
Now, we can all go around the mullberry bush discussing what exactly he meant by that. I know what he meant, and it was more than a bodily absence.
We didn't talk to Jesus, it was discouraged, we certainly didn't pray to Jesus, we said he was the head of the body, what what did that mean?
For all intents and purposes, it had no realistic or 'practical application' in our lives in a one on one relationship with Jesus Christ. That was something I had before PFAL. It was taken away, slowly but stolen from me for fear of idolatry, sinning against God and gee, we got the Word to replace Him.
Lordship is more than having a big brother example in black and white words.
Yes, all the right phrases were there. All seemingly correct words as well. But when it got boiled down, Jesus Christ was put on the shelf; His words were put in another administration cause he was the crucified Jesus then, while in Paul's letters he was the glorified Christ...I am not disputing that. (but if we want to say that God's Word IS His will and he had a purpose for everything He said, where he said it and so on...let's not forget that the gospels, containing the 'crucified Jesus" was well written after many epistles and for a reason...for those after the ascension to read and know...in their time...)
So while he said one thing..things that sounded correct...VP was also saying another thing. I don't believe this to be a misunderstanding on our parts, or a misprint of the publishers or anything like that,or because the old grads, new grads, blue grads or grad named Sue twisted VP's words but a deliberate covert attempt to replace OUR high priest, Jesus Christ, with VP and whomever suceeded VP at the realm of TWI. It was done slowly and methodically, so it was not noticeable and only regained once people woke up and left TWI...
as one person pointed out in another thread awhile ago...in making Jesus Christ just a man, albeit a perfect man, they contradicted themselves by saying that Jesus was absent and still had God's quality of being omnipresent by stating it's Christ in you, Christ in you....in every single believer at the same time. The argument that that can be is because it is spiritual doesn't hold any water, persay, as the devil is spirit and STILL can only be in one place at one time. Only God is omnipresent...
Just my opinion, somewhat on TWI's true motives in dealing with Jesus Christ.
This is good news because it means you can learn some new things and get some answers to some old questions. I've worked this for 5 years now, and I'm not done presenting all I've found so far. The movie isn't over yet, so shhhhhhhhhh!
Mandii,
I agree that things went wrong in lots of ways. I'm just happy to report that we can come back to the PFAL books, with an attitude of thankfulness to God that He slipped this into our lap by way of a MOST unexpected kind of messenger. Even the devil didn't guess this could happen.
Just like Paul, the most unlikely of characters, who got the nod from Jesus to do Col.1:27 like I reported earlier, Dr was the LAST guy the devil thought he'd have to thwart in the 40's, 50's, 60's, and all of a sudden there's a film class busting up the devil's plans with the baby boomers.
God uses strategy to get things done right under the devil's nose. The mystery is only one such example. The selection of Paul was a stunning move God pulled on the devil. So was VPW. We all got stunned in the process, but God gave us special shields and the stun was set for "mild" in our vicinity.
As the tingling wears off (time) and confusion dispels (reading PFAL again) we'll see that what God did was like a commando rescue behind enemy lines.
We're behind the devil's enemy lines, with no real Word to help, and God send in a tough hardened Secial Ops to save us with His Word. It's a tough operation, and there's some roughing up and some mistakes and some enemy fire,and OH NO! even some friendly fire!!! and it's all confusing, but here we are...
...safe and sound and healing, and we GOT THE WORD like it has not been known since first century.
And as time goes by, with our noses in this Word that God taught Dr and Dr taught us, the healing completes, the tingling fades, and we start seeing clearly in the pages of PFAL that God has more learning for us.
And learning is an exciting adventure!
So, you too, Jerry, can have an exciting time again, learning new things, things that will help the ones you love even better than the truths you know so far.
[This message was edited by Mike on April 10, 2003 at 6:19.]
quote:I agree that putting flesh, ANYONE?S flesh, on a pedestal is asking for disaster.
Mandii, Sorry if I have misinterpreted you...
But...
Mike, I do believe Mandii was addressing the putting of a man's SPIRIT/REVELATION on a pedestal, not their flesh or personality. It seems you missed her point and landed on the flip-side of your own dichotomy.
For me, this about sums up my disagreement with your gospel = One-size-fits-all revelation.
If VP got some rev, does it really meet everyone's needs?
Everywhere?
And if so, from now until when?
I also think Mandii brought up some good points about the immediate vs long-term relevance of Peter's/Paul's revelations. They addressed specific needs, in specific forms, based on their own backgrounds.
Maybe VP's ministery was just to "call out the lost hippies" of a single generation. But he, as well as his most die-hard sycophants, thought it was more than that. They thought they were giants. And maybe some still do. But the wineskin is old and dry (cuz VP and LCM drank it too fast and got blitzed on it instead?).
I read in the epistles that drunkeness bears bad fruit. And revelation is often describe as a wine. selah
----
One more thing.
Fans (fanatics) of many genres and mediums of writing spend years examining the "mathematical precision" and remarkable symmetry hidden in the words of their idols.
You ever count and compare the words of Dante, Saint Francis of Assisi, Tolkien, Da Vinci, or Thomas Jefferson? Their subtleties and perfections, too, can be breathtaking. And most of them also highly regard the Bible.
There are entire sub-genres of minutae-fascination in all important writings.
One of my favorites is the Led-Zeppelin/JRR Tolkien connection.
I swore after I posted the last post I was going to shut down my computer and get out of here.
Then I saw you post and swore I?d only read a tiny bit and THAT?S ALL!
Then I read about one fifth of it and saw one of those things I?ve been wanting to address for months, but never get around to it.
So now I?m swearing on a stack of PFAL books that I?m only going to answer this one tiny point and then hit the reset button on my computer as soon as the post flaps its wings and flies off.
Here goes.
You wrote: ?If VP got some rev, does it really meet everyone's needs? Everywhere? And if so, from now until when??
So many times people have stated what they think I believe, or assumed what I believed, and I?ve not had the time or the energy to track all down and correct. Thank you for putting this one in the interrogatory.
Some things in my belief system are not all that clear yet to me. Some are a work in progress. The best I know on this point you brought up is this. The PFAL revelations are addressed to GRADS of the class. I know that?s not a perfectly defined category, but I?m working on it.
When Dr says on page 34 of the Green Book ?...every word I have written to you is true...? he is addressing us grads. He was ALWAYS addressing us... just about. Remember how often at a live meeting with thousands in attendance, he?d spontaneously address us all as ?now Class...? or something similar? There could have been some non-grads eavesdropping and getting blessed, but he was primarily addressing us.
So the short answer to your question, sirguessalot, is ?No, I don?t think the PFAL revelations are for everyone. Just us grads who are ready to do the job.?
Like Rafael, I have presented thorough and direct arguments against your ABSURD notion that PFAL is "God breathed." You continue to ignore those arguments for a variety of lame reasons and yet have the gall to present yourself as some kind of apostle or guru, inviting people to experience some great blessing from recommitting themselves to a doctrine that has been proven time and again to be fallacious.
It was a thrill for me to use the word "interogatory" for the first time in my life.
.
.
.
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Mandii,
On sirguessalot?s hint, I went back and re-read your post.
I believe that God?s Word is as much God as God is God. This is one of the statements of John 1:1.
I don?t mean the Bible here, and if I did I?d be in error. Maybe that?s what you saw that was wrong. In practice the physical words on the page are useless if not believed and acted on in love. This definately happed, but again, I?ve seen that it was isolated to the TWI Verbal Tradition (TVT).
The physical words are NOT as much God as God is God, they?re ink!
But the spiritual side (we?re BACK on topic now) is MUCH bigger.
The spiritual Word of God is what created the heavens and the earth.
Jesus was the Word made flesh, a much better revealing than ink, yet he said his Father was even greater.
When people are totally into the Word of God they are totally into agape love. It?s cool!
When people are totally into the Bible they can be idiots. Not cool!
************
As far as the absent Christ goes, in the written and tape record the relationship with Jesus Christ is there but not well understood. This is one of the biggest reasons Dr told us to master the material, so that we COULD understand it and then put into practice.
The sad thing so far is that we didn?t put into practice. The good part is that we still can.
The reason the relationship with Jesus Christ that WAS in the record wasn?t understood is because this post Pentecost relationship with Jesus Christ was designed by God to be BETTER than the flesh relationships his apostles had with him. Those were very good relationships, but not good enough to get them up from the dead. They weren?t good enough to even get them out of fear!
The post Pentecost relationship God designed for us is NOT a flesh relationship but a spiritual one.
We?re, again, back on topic!
One of the scriptures I cited for this thread was this:
II Cor. 5:16
Wherefore henceforth know we no man after the flesh:
yea, though we have known Christ after the flesh,
yet now henceforth know we him no more.
The flesh relationship with him was upgraded at Pentecost. However, until we understand what a spiritual relationship is we have to settle for the kind of explanations and mental pictures that are limited in that they are 5-senses. A little like the crude electronics teaching my dad gave me, as a 5 year old, with a vacuum cleaner hose and a marble that I mentioned about 20 screen scrolls above.
Knowing someone after the flesh is the normal way of knowing: looking at, talking to, and listening to, and doing things together. We don?t know how these things adapt in a spiritual understanding yet. We know how a lot of denominations have evolved an emotional tradition that involves talking to, joyous exaltations, painful emulation (I did this as a RC), and even into extreme situations like visions and stigmata. Some of these things may be psychologically and emotionally pleasant, but they?ve not gotten anyone to ?all nine all the time.?
There?s more in Corinthians. Here are the next verses:
II Cor. 5: 17-20
Therefore if any man be in Christ,
he is a new creature:
old things are passed away;
behold, all things are become new.
And all things are of God,
who hath reconciled us to himself by Jesus Christ,
and hath given to us the ministry of reconciliation;
To wit, that God was in Christ,
reconciling the world unto himself,
not imputing their trespasses unto them;
and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.
Now then we are ambassadors for Christ,
as though God did beseech you by us:
we pray you in Christ's stead, be ye reconciled to God.
The relationship we have with Jesus is one of taking his place. We get to know him by BECOMING him, in a sense, by allowing the new man inside to grow and counting the old man dead. We get the same job of representing God to the world, and reconciling them back to God. We get the same power Jesus got, the same relationship with the Father, and are joint heirs with him. We get to know him the way an actor gets to know the character they play. The actor becomes the role they portray, but only for the duration of the play. We get to do it for keeps. Once we get that down, God will give us our next instructions.
Paul was the first to accomplish this, and he taught by revelation, that we should imitate him, because he was imitating the REAL MAN!
When Dr says he wished he was THE MAN he knew to be, THIS is what he was talking about. Moses wanted to enter the promised land, but because of his sin he couldn?t. He was still able to help others do it, though.
There is a teaching that deals with this that Dr did in 1974 called ?Christ Formed In You? and then a few years later he did it again, calling it ?Forming Christ In You? and then he did it again at the 7th Corps Graduation, and then a few years later Walter did it again. It slipped by us or we forgot about it. It?s about next in line for the next tape report thread I?m planning. These teachings were usually confused with ?Christ in you, the hope of glory,? but they were more like ?Christ in your mind/actions, the realization of glory!?
I understand how you are writing to a specific strata of grads (at least directly), and that your face is set like a flint in that, but where is the substance of your revelations? Where do you want to take these OLG you shake outta the tree? Is it just an invite to rework PFAL with the VP's secret time-capsule study-method with you? Or is there a new/old curriculum at the other end of it? Is it just beer-and-pizza-study-night-at-Mike's, or let's break ground for a new PFAL Academy and dorms? Surely, the largely entropic debates surrounding your writings at the GSC cannot be the end of it? Not even "cross-my-fingers and hope some lurkers heed my words, but I'll hafta wait and see if so at the bema" seems such a wise investment God would make?
So, what is it?
What do you want people to do?
(Now I am speaking spiritually, in regards to forming Christ in you)
If someone said, "I'll follow you all the way up that mountain, rabbi, so we can sit around the fire and you can reveal the true meaning of the parables to us," what will you do with them?
quote: The sad thing so far is that we didn?t put into practice. The good part is that we still can.
What ARE your proposed practices? So far, most of what I've read is the stale prose of regurgitated PFAL. A slight variant, but same words, same nuances of language, same models, and same exclusive relationships of meanings. I hope you forgive me for saying so, but so far, it seems as if you've written mostly pie-in-the-sky-platitudes in VPs own "pen." Your writing seems to have such a stiff, restrictive language. Is that intentional? I often wonder if that that is why it takes you so long to write and respond (aside from the sheer volume of fan mail - you are a rock-star, after all). ;)-->
(Not dissing your skills or your style, just wondering where the juice is.)
quote: Some of these things may be psychologically and emotionally pleasant, but they?ve not gotten anyone to ?all nine all the time.?
No one?
Really?
Not now?
Not since century 1?
What about you?
Are you then offering the means to all 9 all the time?
Can you tell us what "all nine all the time" is like in today's world?
You offering meat or you offering milk?
Spit it out, man. How will people know how to respond to a wisdom if you only publish knowledge? Where are your tools? Where are the hard questions and answers? Are they being kept a secret until someone joins (for lack of a better term)?
Now, I'm not tempting you to produce for a sign of proof, just wondering if you can really handle the real heavy subject matter to the point of instructing in the art of it? The art of living it? For sick people, for pregnant people, for dying people, for destroyed people, for proud people, for enslaved people, for cursed people, for the bewildered, the angry, the disturbed, the guilt-ridden, bored, the wild, and the numb?
Wierwillian one-liners gonna do it?
Wierwillian, lists, spread-sheets, formulas and diagrams gonna do it?
So, the short questions to your answer: Do you know where you are going with all this?
Are you on a spiritual need-to-know-basis? Cuz it seems to me that if the question is being asked, you might NEED to know, real soon.
The only reason I ask such a stream of questions, is because you seem to have set the hard-edged exclusiveness and urgency of your own message: "The best thing you OLGs could do with your life is rework PFAL." (correct me if I misunderstood.)
I think some of us are just wondering when yer gonna get more clear and concrete with your spiritual promises of wisdom, seeing as how yer making such large, sweeping claims of abundance and blessing.
I did answer a bunch of these just a few minutes ago in a post to Jesse Joe on Larry's Thread. Im too tired to find it and paste it here.
As far as instructor, God chose Dr and that's good enough for me. I'm pointing out that the PFAL writings are NOT as you describe them and that your assesment of those writings is off the mark. They are of God and need to be respected if they are to be of maximum value.
I'm a student at all nine all the time. I want to help other students by the route God has brought to us.
Sorry, I just saw the post on the other thread. It DID answer SOME of it.
But, that the PFAL writings are NOT as I describe them and that I am "off the mark" seems no more than a supposed point stated in absolution. And that my assessment of them is NOT acceptable to you seems a moot point. Gambling? "Just take it faith brother?"
quote:I'm a student at all nine all the time. I want to help other students by the route God has brought to us.
The route: an exclusive PFAL canon?
Is this the only route for everyone to get to "all 9 all the time."
Or the only route to being spiritual, period?
Is this route simply for OLGs to study PFAL deeper than they ever have before?
Where is "all 9" in that?
Am I mistaken when I recall that you have dismiss the Advanced Class from your PFAL canon?
Where then will one learn of the rest of the manifestations?
That is the essence of "all 9," right? All 9 manifestations of holy spirit?
"Just study PFAL again, and then - good luck. Its ALL 9 from there, you'll see?"
Acts = praxis.
What specific actions does your studies of PFAL prescribe?
What disciplines, besides the book-worm kind, must OLGs adopt?
"Then we can go out and have a revival in the PFAL movement, then do W.O.W. like it was supposed to be done in the first place?"
***
I'm still genuinely unclear where your message is going, and where it addresses (or even acknowledges) SPIRITUAL HARDBALL.
tng
[This message was edited by sirguessalot on April 06, 2003 at 16:51.]
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Yanagisawa
Did you say "get the ball rolling" or get the kaballa rolling...for it sounds like that's your current freak - some sort of hidden, mystical kaballa-esque gnostic esotericism. I'm fascinated with you
Mike
Mandii,
I agree that putting flesh, ANYONE?S flesh, on a pedestal is asking for disaster.
Fortunately it?s hard for us to put Paul?s flesh on a pedestal since he?s 2000 years dead. We never met him.
I?m real careful (and successful) at NOT getting into personality worship of Paul, even though I was accused of it by non-grad Christians in the 70?s a lot. I was totally successful at separating the words form the man. The words are from God, and not Paul. Paul was a servant, a worker, and God originated them and taught them to Paul. Of course Jesus Christ IS intimately involved in this process.
Now with VPW it?s a similar situation of separating the words from the man. HOWEVER, this time it?s no so easy. He IS dead, but not in our memories. Many of us DID CERTAINLY get into a flesh worship trip towards him back in the good old days, and that got worse as time went on.
This does take hard intellectual work, even in the emotional category, to separate the words form the man, but when we do we find that God was the real author, and Dr a mere servant, a helper.
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Raf
Ah, but if God was the author then there'd be no...
oh forget it.
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Mike
Do you mean... mistakes?
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Raf
oh shut up.
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Mike
Rafael I?m completely able to type with my mouth closed.
Mistakes are an interesting thing. When I studied the lying list, the notion of mistakes often entered the fray. There are some odd things about mistakes that I haven?t yet presented.
The detection of mistakes is more complicated than people think. A casual awareness of mistakes will omit some crucial notions.
**********************
One such notion I learned from commercial map making. In order to protect the copyrights on maps, the owners sometimes will deliberately introduce an a ?error? in some small side street or brook or some small item like that. This ?error? is then registered, along with the rest of the map in the copyright process. If someone copies their map, this error is usually picked up unawares.
Is this an error in the usual sense? It would sure look like an error to a motorist using the map and finding that Elm Street is a dead end in actuality, but connects to Maple Street in on the map.
Is it a lie? Does it hurt any one?
Does God have such license? Is there ANY remotely similar setup where God might put something down in a way that LOOKS like an error, but is deliberate on His part? This might take some time to thoroughly answer, so I suggest some pondering.
**********************
Here?s another:
When I was a about 5 or 6 years old, I asked my father how electricity worked. I was only remotely interested in the wall socket power, but flashlights were pretty cool, and electric trains were the ULTIMATE toys.
TO help me, my dad took a vacuum cleaner hose and lifted up one end, and held a marble in his hand. He told me that the marble was just like an electron, and the hose was just like a wire. He then dropped the marble into the hose opening and rumble-rattle-rrrrm OUT CAME the marble out the other side. He told me THAT?s how electricity works. It helped me for several years, until I wondered how magnetism worked, and the model broke down, and I learned the next level of how electronics works.
Now, did my dad lie? Was his explanation an error? Did it hurt or help me? It helped.
**********************
Next:
There is a situation in language where something can be said that?s not true to fact, yet it comes from a perfect, non-lying, non-error committing, non hurting, helpful source. When such source issues a statement that?s not true to fact, then it?s a figure of speech.
So, whenever an apparent error is discovered, one of the tasks facing responsible researchers is a thorough going over in the category of figures of speech. This is hard work and takes a lot of time.
*********************
So errors are not so cut and dry. I go REAL slow when hearing of errors, and for good reason.
[This message was edited by Mike on April 05, 2003 at 17:41.]
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Raf
I apologize for posting off topic messages on this thread. I do believe my posts are related to your topic, but only indirectly (namely: your thread is an extension of your thesis, which I believe to be flawed. My posts have basically focused on the flaws in your thesis, not the direct thread topic). So I won't interfere anymore except to respond to your last post:
"2+2=5" is always an error, cut and dried. I will concede that more of my "Actual Errors" list will be resolved. But not all of it. That's where you and I disagree. I have several examples of which I am extremely confident (and unlike you, I will not resort to "God told me I'm right about this" in order to bolster my argument).
That's another topic for another thread. I believe your handling of "apparent errors," if carried out honestly, will lead you to the conclusion that Wierwille made mistakes in the writing of his books, mistakes that disqualify those books from the very definition of "God-breathed" contained therein. Take all the time you want, but don't dodge. Don't distract. Don't evade. And when you finally conclude the error is an error, just admit it. It will open a world to you about which you know very little right now.
I can see the value of Wierwille's books without adopting your thesis. You cannot see the value of abandoning your thesis until you do so. Good luck.
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Mandii
Thank you, Mike for your response.
First, let me clarify that I was not just singling you out for worshipping Paul. I personally believe that much of fundamental Protestantnism does it; for reasons they may not understand, that go deeper than they realize. But basically, my limited research and understanding traces it back to the reformation where people pulled away from anything Roman Catholic, and as they celebrated Peter being the head of the church way back when, it was then transferred to Paul.
Some may wonder what's wrong with that, since many have a strong (and I am not saying it is unjustified) bias against Roman Catholisim..but it is no more honest than taking a stance against any doctrine learned in TWI, just because one learned it in TWI.
You said, "
Fortunately it?s hard for us to put Paul?s flesh on a pedestal since he?s 2000 years dead. We never met him."
Secondly, I do strongly disagree with what you said, providing I understood you correctly, that it is impossible to worship a dead guy. I think it is more than possible since his letters are still with us.
I don't know how many times I heard while in TWI, when talking about witnessing to someone, that they could be the 'next apostle Paul.' Being the next apostle Paul was something that was on people's minds, the people who were around when I got involved with TWI and everywhere I went after that.
I am not saying that there is inherently anything wrong with that...it is just the natural progression where Paul's letters are more magnified over the words of Jesus in the gospels.
TWI provided a breeding ground for that in separating the gospels from us in saying that they (the gospels) were not addressed to us. As being much younger then, and more of a pea brain, I was confused in that how could I share the gospel if it was not addressed to me??
TWI was built upon the implication that VP was also an apostle and at least a man of god that had been taught the word as it hadn't been known since the first century church..via revelation from God just like Paul. Also, since Paul was of the first century..........
I can say that in my mind, and for those around me while in TWI..many of us drew comparisions between Paul and VP...and I think we were supposed to...but I guess that can be considered subjective as some can/will say they never saw that.
But a man can be worshipped posthumously. His life, his works, words..all can become the object of being idolized and worshipped...a bodily presence is not needed for worship...
and case in point to prove one does not need a bodily presence to be found the subject of worship, I point to Jesus Christ....
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Mike
Mandii,
I haven?t yet read you post. I?m on the go.
Rafael,
It is a little more complicated than you state.
It is the case that ?mistakes that disqualify those books from the very definition of "God-breathed" contained therein? pertains to each and every book says ?Holy Bible? on the cover. No exceptions. They're all reconstructions of the originals.
It is this complication I have been addressing, and God has solved.
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Raf
I agree, God has the solution.
You, sir, are far from it.
But go ahead. Master it all. Have fun.
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Mike
Mandii,
I agree the TWI Verbal Tradition (TVT) got way out of hand on both Paul and Victor Paul. We got out of balance on LOTS of other things as well: grace liscense, guideline law, dicipline, tough love, etc., just like all other churches. The first century church got out of balance and became RC.
I've found a most beautiful chapter in Dr's last book called about Zacheus. It?s called ?Climbing High to Seek Truth.? It really dispels the myth that Dr?s teaching was bereft of the Lordship of Jesus Christ. That DID happen in TVT, but not Dr?s teachings.
Here are some of his last words to us, from that last year, and his last book.
*************************************
On page 207 he writes:
?As we pass through life, we must climb ever higher and higher in our hearts and minds with the greatness of God?s Word. We must always keep progressing to see more and more of God?s Word and His promises manifested in our daily lives.?
****
.....too many people (me included) had ended their search for more and more. We were resting on our laurels. That is... we older leader grads (OLG) were resting on our laurels. Oops! I don?t like the looks of THAT acronym. It looks too mych like OLD! And, gosh! I hope Ossifer Zix from the Acromyn Enfrocement Police (AEP) doesn?t see this before I have a chance to ski daddle outta here (SDOH). He?s gonna git me fer THIS one fer shir!
*************************************
On page 212-213 he writes:
?All I know is that the Word of God says Zacchaeus was a publican and he was rich. We learn one other thing about Zacchaeus in this account and that is that he was motivated by a wonderful desire: He wanted to see Jesus.
?Luke 19:3:
And he sought to see Jesus who he was; and could not for the press, because he was little of stature.
?Zacchaeus wanted to see Jesus-who he was. Perhaps it was simple curiosity prompting him. The text doesn't say. But whatever the reason, at least he wanted to see Jesus. I wish that today, across our nation, there were more people who wanted to see Jesus. When people ask to see Jesus today, we've got to show him. When they want to see Jesus, who he is, we can show them God's Word and the greatness of Jesus Christ's position in the Word.
?Zacchaeus wanted to see Jesus, but he couldn't. The reason he couldn't see him or get to him was for "the press." That doesn't mean the news media, such as newspaper, radio, or television reporters. "Press" means "numbers of people." There were so many people sur-rounding Jesus that Zacchaeus couldn't get a glimpse of him.
?Verse 3:
. . . because he was little of stature.
?Zacchaeus was short. The biggest thing about him was his desire to see Jesus.
?Verse 4:
And he [Zacchaeus] ran before [ahead of where Jesus was walking], and climbed up into a sycomore tree to see him: for he [Jesus] was to pass that way.
?Zacchaeus climbed up into a sycamore tree in order to get a view of this noted person, Jesus, whom people were talking about. Zacchaeus took the necessary action to fulfill his desire. That's very important. If you want to see Jesus Christ through God's Word, you need to move, take action. Zacchaeus took the initiative and climbed up into that sycamore tree.?
**********
Ten times I count the phrase ?see Jesus? in these two pages.
Couple this with the introductory paragraph I gave you from p.207, and it's progressing to SEE JESUS that he?s urging with us OLGs to do. It?s for other grads too.
*************************************
On pages 214 and 215 he writes:
I want to tell you, whenever there are men and women desiring to know the Lord Jesus Christ, they will have that desire met according to God?s Word. Those people who hunger and thirst after righteousness shall (absolutely) be filled. That?s right. What an example of fulfilling this promise from this record in God?s Word.?
****
Again, he?s telling us to hunger for the Lord Jesus Christ.
*************************************
On pages 221 and 222 he writes:
?Jesus Christ is a physician of the soul. A physician is not needed when one is healthy. Jesus Christ comes to seek and to save, to give wholeness to those in spiritual need. He seeks those who are lost-men and women who need the Lord Jesus Christ. He has no problem ex-tending himself to you and to me, because we are the people he came to seek and to save. Hebrews 7:25 says that Jesus Christ is "able also to save them to the uttermost that come unto God by him." Jesus Christ is always ready to meet you. He met Zacchaeus, who had climbed up in a tree to see him. Wherever there are men and women who really want to hear, Jesus Christ is always there.
?There is no one so low that the arms of the Almighty are not underneath him. There is no one so high that the arms of the Almighty are not over him. And there is no one other than His Son who can save people. For there is no other name given among men whereby we must be saved.
?Ladies and gentlemen, whatever you have to do to know the Lord Jesus Christ, do it. Wherever you have to go to learn about him, do it. The one great driving force of your soul should be to know Jesus Christ. Who is he? The only way you'll ever know who Jesus Christ is is to come to God's Word. The Word makes known Jesus Christ. The Word tells you who he is. It is that Word which brings you to a knowledge of salvation.
?What do you need to hear? God's Word. Jesus Christ was that Word, the Living Word, who met Zacchaeus that day in Jericho. And he brought Zacchaeus to the great reality of being a believer, because Jesus was willing to teach him and Zacchaeus was meek to learn. If you want to experience the truth of God's Word, climb high to seek truth. God always has and always will seek out and teach those who are looking to Jesus Christ as their savior and lord.?
*************************************
When all these were coming out in print, we OLGs were all on our own trips, all imbalanced in one way or another, and these things slipped right by us (or out of us).
I tried to show some of these kinds of things to the CES bulldozers in the early 90?s after they had been blowing the whistle on how the TVT had lost track of the Lordship of Jesus Christ. I believed them for a few years, until I found a ton of things like these quotes.
The reason I believed them at first, in the late 80?s, is because I clearly saw it the TVT, but I hadn?t yet learned the VAST separation, the VAST difference between what got put into print from what went on behind the scenes. This is the case for other things that got out of balance besides the lordship deal. (Exy, this is for you)
The print record, and also the tape, has lots of things that we OLGs were learning how to tune out. We would say things in our heads like:
?Yeah, yeah, that?s just Dr?
or
?How many times have I heard THIS before??
or
?He doesn?t really mean that. He just mis-spoke, but I?ve a hot line to the Father and I?ll correct it immediately and just forget about it.?
Us OLGs have some accounting to do. Hows come we didn?t see the VAST difference between TVT and the Word of God that God was teaching to Dr and Dr was getting into print with our help? How?s come we didn?t see that VAST difference? Because we got 'Sower-and-Seed'ed that?s how! We drifted away from the pure Word in PFAL and went back to tradition and KJV "research" on our own with no 1942 promise to back us up. And our fruit tells exactly which 3 of the 4 "Sower and Seed" categories we fit into, when ?all nine all the time? is used as the standard which we were shooting for.
We got work to do. Thank God for His patience with us.
.
[This message was edited by Mike on April 05, 2003 at 19:34.]
[This message was edited by Mike on April 05, 2003 at 19:54.]
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Jbarrax
Mike,
I've got bad news for you. This isn't a Ubiquitously Hidden Teaching. It's nothing more than VP's style of delivery. I think you mentioned that your first impression was that Vic was just being flashy. As LarryP has kindly revealed, you got it right the first time.
I heard this from a Corps grad years ago. VP told them that whenever they assigned a title to a teaching, it should include elements of human dan divine or physical and spiritual.
It wasn't some deep spiritual message preserved for later generations. It was just his way of coming up with a catchy title. Call it showmanship, call it literary style. But don't call it "important".
Peace
JerryB
Let me just say that I'
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Mandii
Then I suppose the difference is in the definition of what VP meant by seeking the Lord Jesus Christ and His Lordship.
I will freely admit that VP spoke a lot about Christ. Session 7..wasnt' that the 'born again session?" "I don't care how you got the baby..I just want to see the baby?"
If he hadn't spoken about Jesus Christ, I know I would never have sat through a Twig fellowship OR the class, since at that time, Jesus Christ was central to me since I came into TWI believing Jesus Christ was God.
Yet, in those same collaterals, VP said that the Word of God, the bible took the place of the absent Christ.
Now, we can all go around the mullberry bush discussing what exactly he meant by that. I know what he meant, and it was more than a bodily absence.
We didn't talk to Jesus, it was discouraged, we certainly didn't pray to Jesus, we said he was the head of the body, what what did that mean?
For all intents and purposes, it had no realistic or 'practical application' in our lives in a one on one relationship with Jesus Christ. That was something I had before PFAL. It was taken away, slowly but stolen from me for fear of idolatry, sinning against God and gee, we got the Word to replace Him.
Lordship is more than having a big brother example in black and white words.
Yes, all the right phrases were there. All seemingly correct words as well. But when it got boiled down, Jesus Christ was put on the shelf; His words were put in another administration cause he was the crucified Jesus then, while in Paul's letters he was the glorified Christ...I am not disputing that. (but if we want to say that God's Word IS His will and he had a purpose for everything He said, where he said it and so on...let's not forget that the gospels, containing the 'crucified Jesus" was well written after many epistles and for a reason...for those after the ascension to read and know...in their time...)
So while he said one thing..things that sounded correct...VP was also saying another thing. I don't believe this to be a misunderstanding on our parts, or a misprint of the publishers or anything like that,or because the old grads, new grads, blue grads or grad named Sue twisted VP's words but a deliberate covert attempt to replace OUR high priest, Jesus Christ, with VP and whomever suceeded VP at the realm of TWI. It was done slowly and methodically, so it was not noticeable and only regained once people woke up and left TWI...
as one person pointed out in another thread awhile ago...in making Jesus Christ just a man, albeit a perfect man, they contradicted themselves by saying that Jesus was absent and still had God's quality of being omnipresent by stating it's Christ in you, Christ in you....in every single believer at the same time. The argument that that can be is because it is spiritual doesn't hold any water, persay, as the devil is spirit and STILL can only be in one place at one time. Only God is omnipresent...
Just my opinion, somewhat on TWI's true motives in dealing with Jesus Christ.
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Mike
Jerry,
I've got GOOD news for you: You're wrong.
This is good news because it means you can learn some new things and get some answers to some old questions. I've worked this for 5 years now, and I'm not done presenting all I've found so far. The movie isn't over yet, so shhhhhhhhhh!
Mandii,
I agree that things went wrong in lots of ways. I'm just happy to report that we can come back to the PFAL books, with an attitude of thankfulness to God that He slipped this into our lap by way of a MOST unexpected kind of messenger. Even the devil didn't guess this could happen.
Just like Paul, the most unlikely of characters, who got the nod from Jesus to do Col.1:27 like I reported earlier, Dr was the LAST guy the devil thought he'd have to thwart in the 40's, 50's, 60's, and all of a sudden there's a film class busting up the devil's plans with the baby boomers.
God uses strategy to get things done right under the devil's nose. The mystery is only one such example. The selection of Paul was a stunning move God pulled on the devil. So was VPW. We all got stunned in the process, but God gave us special shields and the stun was set for "mild" in our vicinity.
As the tingling wears off (time) and confusion dispels (reading PFAL again) we'll see that what God did was like a commando rescue behind enemy lines.
We're behind the devil's enemy lines, with no real Word to help, and God send in a tough hardened Secial Ops to save us with His Word. It's a tough operation, and there's some roughing up and some mistakes and some enemy fire,and OH NO! even some friendly fire!!! and it's all confusing, but here we are...
...safe and sound and healing, and we GOT THE WORD like it has not been known since first century.
And as time goes by, with our noses in this Word that God taught Dr and Dr taught us, the healing completes, the tingling fades, and we start seeing clearly in the pages of PFAL that God has more learning for us.
And learning is an exciting adventure!
So, you too, Jerry, can have an exciting time again, learning new things, things that will help the ones you love even better than the truths you know so far.
[This message was edited by Mike on April 10, 2003 at 6:19.]
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sirguessalot
Mandii, Sorry if I have misinterpreted you...
But...
Mike, I do believe Mandii was addressing the putting of a man's SPIRIT/REVELATION on a pedestal, not their flesh or personality. It seems you missed her point and landed on the flip-side of your own dichotomy.
For me, this about sums up my disagreement with your gospel = One-size-fits-all revelation.
If VP got some rev, does it really meet everyone's needs?
Everywhere?
And if so, from now until when?
I also think Mandii brought up some good points about the immediate vs long-term relevance of Peter's/Paul's revelations. They addressed specific needs, in specific forms, based on their own backgrounds.
Maybe VP's ministery was just to "call out the lost hippies" of a single generation. But he, as well as his most die-hard sycophants, thought it was more than that. They thought they were giants. And maybe some still do. But the wineskin is old and dry (cuz VP and LCM drank it too fast and got blitzed on it instead?).
I read in the epistles that drunkeness bears bad fruit. And revelation is often describe as a wine. selah
----
One more thing.
Fans (fanatics) of many genres and mediums of writing spend years examining the "mathematical precision" and remarkable symmetry hidden in the words of their idols.
You ever count and compare the words of Dante, Saint Francis of Assisi, Tolkien, Da Vinci, or Thomas Jefferson? Their subtleties and perfections, too, can be breathtaking. And most of them also highly regard the Bible.
There are entire sub-genres of minutae-fascination in all important writings.
One of my favorites is the Led-Zeppelin/JRR Tolkien connection.
For what its worth,
tng
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Mandii
sirguessalot, *smiles* you understood me perfectly and thank you for your words.
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Mike
Sirguessalot,
I swore after I posted the last post I was going to shut down my computer and get out of here.
Then I saw you post and swore I?d only read a tiny bit and THAT?S ALL!
Then I read about one fifth of it and saw one of those things I?ve been wanting to address for months, but never get around to it.
So now I?m swearing on a stack of PFAL books that I?m only going to answer this one tiny point and then hit the reset button on my computer as soon as the post flaps its wings and flies off.
Here goes.
You wrote: ?If VP got some rev, does it really meet everyone's needs? Everywhere? And if so, from now until when??
So many times people have stated what they think I believe, or assumed what I believed, and I?ve not had the time or the energy to track all down and correct. Thank you for putting this one in the interrogatory.
Some things in my belief system are not all that clear yet to me. Some are a work in progress. The best I know on this point you brought up is this. The PFAL revelations are addressed to GRADS of the class. I know that?s not a perfectly defined category, but I?m working on it.
When Dr says on page 34 of the Green Book ?...every word I have written to you is true...? he is addressing us grads. He was ALWAYS addressing us... just about. Remember how often at a live meeting with thousands in attendance, he?d spontaneously address us all as ?now Class...? or something similar? There could have been some non-grads eavesdropping and getting blessed, but he was primarily addressing us.
So the short answer to your question, sirguessalot, is ?No, I don?t think the PFAL revelations are for everyone. Just us grads who are ready to do the job.?
.
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sirguessalot
Mike,
Honest enough.
Thanks
And thanks for responding to the interrogatory.
It was genuine.
tng
[This message was edited by sirguessalot on April 05, 2003 at 23:33.]
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Jbarrax
Mike
Like Rafael, I have presented thorough and direct arguments against your ABSURD notion that PFAL is "God breathed." You continue to ignore those arguments for a variety of lame reasons and yet have the gall to present yourself as some kind of apostle or guru, inviting people to experience some great blessing from recommitting themselves to a doctrine that has been proven time and again to be fallacious.
You sir are in need of therapy.
JerryB
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Mike
Sirguessalot,
It was a thrill for me to use the word "interogatory" for the first time in my life.
.
.
.
.
Mandii,
On sirguessalot?s hint, I went back and re-read your post.
I believe that God?s Word is as much God as God is God. This is one of the statements of John 1:1.
I don?t mean the Bible here, and if I did I?d be in error. Maybe that?s what you saw that was wrong. In practice the physical words on the page are useless if not believed and acted on in love. This definately happed, but again, I?ve seen that it was isolated to the TWI Verbal Tradition (TVT).
The physical words are NOT as much God as God is God, they?re ink!
But the spiritual side (we?re BACK on topic now) is MUCH bigger.
The spiritual Word of God is what created the heavens and the earth.
Jesus was the Word made flesh, a much better revealing than ink, yet he said his Father was even greater.
When people are totally into the Word of God they are totally into agape love. It?s cool!
When people are totally into the Bible they can be idiots. Not cool!
************
As far as the absent Christ goes, in the written and tape record the relationship with Jesus Christ is there but not well understood. This is one of the biggest reasons Dr told us to master the material, so that we COULD understand it and then put into practice.
The sad thing so far is that we didn?t put into practice. The good part is that we still can.
The reason the relationship with Jesus Christ that WAS in the record wasn?t understood is because this post Pentecost relationship with Jesus Christ was designed by God to be BETTER than the flesh relationships his apostles had with him. Those were very good relationships, but not good enough to get them up from the dead. They weren?t good enough to even get them out of fear!
The post Pentecost relationship God designed for us is NOT a flesh relationship but a spiritual one.
We?re, again, back on topic!
One of the scriptures I cited for this thread was this:
II Cor. 5:16
Wherefore henceforth know we no man after the flesh:
yea, though we have known Christ after the flesh,
yet now henceforth know we him no more.
The flesh relationship with him was upgraded at Pentecost. However, until we understand what a spiritual relationship is we have to settle for the kind of explanations and mental pictures that are limited in that they are 5-senses. A little like the crude electronics teaching my dad gave me, as a 5 year old, with a vacuum cleaner hose and a marble that I mentioned about 20 screen scrolls above.
Knowing someone after the flesh is the normal way of knowing: looking at, talking to, and listening to, and doing things together. We don?t know how these things adapt in a spiritual understanding yet. We know how a lot of denominations have evolved an emotional tradition that involves talking to, joyous exaltations, painful emulation (I did this as a RC), and even into extreme situations like visions and stigmata. Some of these things may be psychologically and emotionally pleasant, but they?ve not gotten anyone to ?all nine all the time.?
There?s more in Corinthians. Here are the next verses:
II Cor. 5: 17-20
Therefore if any man be in Christ,
he is a new creature:
old things are passed away;
behold, all things are become new.
And all things are of God,
who hath reconciled us to himself by Jesus Christ,
and hath given to us the ministry of reconciliation;
To wit, that God was in Christ,
reconciling the world unto himself,
not imputing their trespasses unto them;
and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.
Now then we are ambassadors for Christ,
as though God did beseech you by us:
we pray you in Christ's stead, be ye reconciled to God.
The relationship we have with Jesus is one of taking his place. We get to know him by BECOMING him, in a sense, by allowing the new man inside to grow and counting the old man dead. We get the same job of representing God to the world, and reconciling them back to God. We get the same power Jesus got, the same relationship with the Father, and are joint heirs with him. We get to know him the way an actor gets to know the character they play. The actor becomes the role they portray, but only for the duration of the play. We get to do it for keeps. Once we get that down, God will give us our next instructions.
Paul was the first to accomplish this, and he taught by revelation, that we should imitate him, because he was imitating the REAL MAN!
When Dr says he wished he was THE MAN he knew to be, THIS is what he was talking about. Moses wanted to enter the promised land, but because of his sin he couldn?t. He was still able to help others do it, though.
There is a teaching that deals with this that Dr did in 1974 called ?Christ Formed In You? and then a few years later he did it again, calling it ?Forming Christ In You? and then he did it again at the 7th Corps Graduation, and then a few years later Walter did it again. It slipped by us or we forgot about it. It?s about next in line for the next tape report thread I?m planning. These teachings were usually confused with ?Christ in you, the hope of glory,? but they were more like ?Christ in your mind/actions, the realization of glory!?
.
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Mike
Jerry,
I'm getting that therapy. It's called PFAL.
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sirguessalot
Mike,
I understand how you are writing to a specific strata of grads (at least directly), and that your face is set like a flint in that, but where is the substance of your revelations? Where do you want to take these OLG you shake outta the tree? Is it just an invite to rework PFAL with the VP's secret time-capsule study-method with you? Or is there a new/old curriculum at the other end of it? Is it just beer-and-pizza-study-night-at-Mike's, or let's break ground for a new PFAL Academy and dorms? Surely, the largely entropic debates surrounding your writings at the GSC cannot be the end of it? Not even "cross-my-fingers and hope some lurkers heed my words, but I'll hafta wait and see if so at the bema" seems such a wise investment God would make?
So, what is it?
What do you want people to do?
(Now I am speaking spiritually, in regards to forming Christ in you)
If someone said, "I'll follow you all the way up that mountain, rabbi, so we can sit around the fire and you can reveal the true meaning of the parables to us," what will you do with them?
What ARE your proposed practices? So far, most of what I've read is the stale prose of regurgitated PFAL. A slight variant, but same words, same nuances of language, same models, and same exclusive relationships of meanings. I hope you forgive me for saying so, but so far, it seems as if you've written mostly pie-in-the-sky-platitudes in VPs own "pen." Your writing seems to have such a stiff, restrictive language. Is that intentional? I often wonder if that that is why it takes you so long to write and respond (aside from the sheer volume of fan mail - you are a rock-star, after all).
;)-->
(Not dissing your skills or your style, just wondering where the juice is.)
No one?
Really?
Not now?
Not since century 1?
What about you?
Are you then offering the means to all 9 all the time?
Can you tell us what "all nine all the time" is like in today's world?
You offering meat or you offering milk?
Spit it out, man. How will people know how to respond to a wisdom if you only publish knowledge? Where are your tools? Where are the hard questions and answers? Are they being kept a secret until someone joins (for lack of a better term)?
Now, I'm not tempting you to produce for a sign of proof, just wondering if you can really handle the real heavy subject matter to the point of instructing in the art of it? The art of living it? For sick people, for pregnant people, for dying people, for destroyed people, for proud people, for enslaved people, for cursed people, for the bewildered, the angry, the disturbed, the guilt-ridden, bored, the wild, and the numb?
Wierwillian one-liners gonna do it?
Wierwillian, lists, spread-sheets, formulas and diagrams gonna do it?
So, the short questions to your answer: Do you know where you are going with all this?
Are you on a spiritual need-to-know-basis? Cuz it seems to me that if the question is being asked, you might NEED to know, real soon.
tng
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sirguessalot
I'll add:
The only reason I ask such a stream of questions, is because you seem to have set the hard-edged exclusiveness and urgency of your own message: "The best thing you OLGs could do with your life is rework PFAL." (correct me if I misunderstood.)
I think some of us are just wondering when yer gonna get more clear and concrete with your spiritual promises of wisdom, seeing as how yer making such large, sweeping claims of abundance and blessing.
tng
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Mike
Sirguessalot,
I did answer a bunch of these just a few minutes ago in a post to Jesse Joe on Larry's Thread. Im too tired to find it and paste it here.
As far as instructor, God chose Dr and that's good enough for me. I'm pointing out that the PFAL writings are NOT as you describe them and that your assesment of those writings is off the mark. They are of God and need to be respected if they are to be of maximum value.
I'm a student at all nine all the time. I want to help other students by the route God has brought to us.
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sirguessalot
Mike,
Sorry, I just saw the post on the other thread. It DID answer SOME of it.
But, that the PFAL writings are NOT as I describe them and that I am "off the mark" seems no more than a supposed point stated in absolution. And that my assessment of them is NOT acceptable to you seems a moot point. Gambling? "Just take it faith brother?"
The route: an exclusive PFAL canon?
Is this the only route for everyone to get to "all 9 all the time."
Or the only route to being spiritual, period?
Is this route simply for OLGs to study PFAL deeper than they ever have before?
Where is "all 9" in that?
Am I mistaken when I recall that you have dismiss the Advanced Class from your PFAL canon?
Where then will one learn of the rest of the manifestations?
That is the essence of "all 9," right? All 9 manifestations of holy spirit?
"Just study PFAL again, and then - good luck. Its ALL 9 from there, you'll see?"
Acts = praxis.
What specific actions does your studies of PFAL prescribe?
What disciplines, besides the book-worm kind, must OLGs adopt?
"Then we can go out and have a revival in the PFAL movement, then do W.O.W. like it was supposed to be done in the first place?"
***
I'm still genuinely unclear where your message is going, and where it addresses (or even acknowledges) SPIRITUAL HARDBALL.
tng
[This message was edited by sirguessalot on April 06, 2003 at 16:51.]
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