I'm new here (left TWI from staff eons ago). I still believe the scriptures God-breathed. Despite the obvious plagarism in VP's writings, I came away thinking that studying the Bible was a whole lot cooler than I had ever known before. I guess God was able to make lemonade from lemons in my life.
So, what are we now to think of these hidden teachings...nothing. VPW was a plagarists. Plagarists are not that smart or subtle. Any effort to "weave" the "tapestry" of VPW's teachings is a counterfiet to how marvelously God put His word together. It elevates the teacher (VPW) and diminishes the Author (GOD).
Besides all that, the list looks like gobbledegook (literal according to usage...pardon me).
quote:If we can see more exactly what went wrong, we can more exactly fix it.
Mike, I believe there were too many things wrong, which led many, including myself, to walk away from TWI non-denominal denomination. That doesn't mean everyone has walked away from God. The two are not synonymous. There was a Godly reason for it's breakup.
You can't fix something that God wants dismantled.
Isn't it better that a hundred believers get their directives from Thee Source, that a hundred believers cow-towing to one believer and his supposed scorse?
There's balance in life that only the Creator can explain.
quote:Isn't that the deeper purpose of what this place is all about?
I don't know what to say, Mike. I do know when The Awakening comes, most want to save everybody, but not everybody is where you is at the time. Keep worken the Word, and you may find that you believe something different than VP. Doesn't make him evil, and you good. For cripe sakes, if life isn't about learning and growing in the spirit, then I don't know what this life is aboot.
I know God is merciful, gracious, and faithful, and will go to the uttermost for His children.
Here are some key words Dr often used with reference to one realm or the other:
Some of these are obvious, some are subtle. There are some that are still a work in progress, so please, let?s not get all bogged down in the details of which ones should be on the list or not. This is still introductory, and the details will come up again, later.
These words, in the PFAL writings, are reserved for emphasizing the spiritual side:
divine
essentially
fervently
genuine
good
honest
information
just
lovely
real
really
true
To some degree, some words are paired off so that one emphasizes the natural and the other the spiritual:
Here is first place we encounter Dr bringing up, right out in the open, this subject of the Natural/Factual vs. the Spiritual/True Realms. It occurs in the middle of the chapter ?Are You Limiting God?? in the Blue Book.
**********************************
?The Bible Tells Me So?
pages 23-25... (......substituting ALL CAPS for italics.....)
Have we been limiting God in our lives? We must
be if we do not have all sufficiency in everything.
Sufficiency is the will of God for His children in
order that His children may abound unto every good
work. Our having sufficiency is God?s will for us; yet
how many of us have limited God by not allowing
Him to fulfill this promise in our lives? How slow we
have been to realize that God is our ability, that He is
the life of our lives, the strength of our strength, that
He is our sufficiency.
We frequently limit God in ourselves by our wrong
believing, by accepting the knowledge that comes to
us through our senses. Our reason says, ?That just
cannot be,? and so we confess the negative, when all
the time His spirit within us is crying out, ?Sufficiency
in everything.? We have been so schooled to
revere the knowledge that comes to us through our
five senses that we fail to recognize the knowledge
that comes from the higher realm, the spiritual, where
the Word of God, and not reason, has first place.
Both realms or worlds are here: the natural world is
factual; the spiritual world is true. As there are four
kingdoms in this world, and one supersedes the other:
the plant kingdom, animal kingdom, kingdom of man
and the Kingdom of God; so, there is a natural world
and a supernatural or spiritual world. The natural
world and everything in it comes to the mind through
or by way of the natural senses. The truths of the
spiritual world are absolutely NOT dependent upon the
senses, but rather on the spirit from God in man.
We cannot know anything about the spiritual
world by way of the senses. That is why Paul said by
divine inspiration in I Corinthians 2:14, ?But the
natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of
God: for they are foolishness unto him ... because
they [spiritual matters] are spiritually discerned.?
Spiritual things from the spiritual world may be
known in this world only by the spirit which dwells
in us. Then, and only then, can the Spirit relate
impressions and truths to us about the spiritual world
and make them logical. Then, and only then, do we
have the God-given ability within us, making known
to us things about the spiritual world.
Time and time again, after I have explained the
difference between the natural and spiritual worlds,
how the one supersedes the other and that two
entirely different sets of laws are in existence, people
have said to me that they were thereafter able to give
God the place He deserves. Then they refused to limit
God within themselves.
Few people realize the great spiritual truth of
Christ?s substitution and the believer?s righteousness.
A man in whom the new creation lives is righteous
before God, according to the Word of God. The
born-again man is righteous, and to be righteous
means that we can stand before God in the righteous-
ness with which He clothed us by our acceptance of
Christ as our substitute for sin and the consequences
of sin.
************************************
I?ve come back to these Blue Book pages many, many times in the past 5 years. Getting to know how all these words were used very carefully by Dr is essential to understanding his teachings in their fullness.
The key vocabulary words I?ve identified and their distinctive Natural/Factual ? Spiritual/True associations are expounded upon in several more places besides this Blue Book passage. However they also are utilized with these same distinctive associations in ALL his teachings, and often in very subtle and hidden ways.
[This message was edited by Mike on March 31, 2003 at 22:23.]
Here is another key place in Dr?s writings to note. I have mentioned this place previously, in more than one post, but only briefly. This passage is from the opening of Chapter 2 ?The Benefits of God? in Volume IV. It?s the chapter where the entire Psalm 103 is taught.
*************************************
?God?s Magnified Word?
page 14
Psalms 103 is a tremendous example of knowledge
and praise. Just the reading of it thrills the heart of
anyone who loves God. The beauty with which this
is set just from a human point of view, without even
thinking of its spiritual impact, should set at peace
the soul of any man or woman. For us as born-again
believers there are tremendous spiritual truths hidden
in this psalm that will elevate and enrich our lives as
we learn them.
*************************************
Line #4 mentions the Natural realm ?a human point of view.?
Line #5 the ?spiritual impact.?
Line #8 mentions how the spiritual is hidden from the 5-senses.
Here Dr teaches us that Psalm 103 can have more than just the 5-senses meaning we get with a natural reading. When passages and topics like this came to my dim attention in the 70?s, it seemed obvious and unimportant. I didn?t pay very close attention to passages like this back then.
Just like Psalm 103 has the potential to impart to us the hidden, deeper spiritual understanding, so do the PFAL writings. God arraigned it that way to help us go farther than believers have been able to go since the first century.
As we master the material on the 5-senses level, then God can give us the spiritual understanding. This is key #4 to walking in the spirit we were taught in the Advanced Class.
I didn?t pay very close attention to passages like page 14 of Vol. IV, or pages 23-25 of the Blue Book, back then... but... after looking at these matters closely in recent years I have since learned that this the precise point, the need to attain a deeper spiritual understanding of PFAL, where we older grad leadership balked in the 80?s. Our egos hit this stumbling block in obeying Dr?s oft issued instructions to master the material. Dr told us to master PFAL, to get into it again at the deeper, spiritual level, but we thought our 5-senses understanding of the material was sufficient.
Please forgive me if my notes are considered copious, but I like to write, and Mike enjoys the rigamorole. Besides, this is his thread. ;)--> But, as mentioned elsewhere recently, the GSC's doctrinal table seems a more suitable venue for this stuff anyway (unless you really want everyone see your headlines at the top of the paper). Oh well.
Mike,
Honest question for ya: Does persecution strengthen your faith?
If so, heerz a quote that might make ya chuckle (or weep): "Success is going from failure to failure without a loss of enthusiam." Winston Churchill.
OK,
Problem #1 - you seem to assume everyone else is more stupider than you.
Problem #2 - you seem to assume everyone else missed the EXACT same things you did in your own PFAL experience.
Problem #3 - you seem to assume that only those mysteries YOU have found in PFAL are worth the most.
Problem #4 - you seem to assume everyone else who wishes to be as smart as you about PFAL should be as willing as they are able to solve your riddles and find the cheese at the end of your maze.
Problem #5 - you seem to assume everyone else will marvel at the simplest of paradigms.
I can only suggest that THESE are the problems you should be trying to solve, my friend. And if you can, you may just meet more minds and hearts than that silent audience your faith is telling you is out there.
Otherwise,
Are you suggesting we hafta get into VP?s mind in order to understood what his words meant to him, in order to understand advanced/basic PFAL, in order to understand the bible, in order to understand/get into the Kingdom of Heaven? a.k.a - ?Light through a Wierwillian Window? or ?Wierwillian Mannerisms that Perplex the Greasespot Mind??
That would be quite a camel-load of apparatus you want us to squeeze through the eye of the needle, dude.
Also, are you suggesting that recognizing VPW's dichotomies in PFAL is a sign of spiritual maturity? Maybe even THE sign of spiritual maturity?
I can?t help but wince at your being confounded and awestruck by some rather universal concepts of heaven and earth.
Regardless, I'll play along. Although I will step outside the lines of your FORMula of duality for understanding da verd. Sorry - I know how you hate to step outside of cages and boxes, but some have been playing these kinds of word games since we were kids, long before we learned PFAL lingo.
Dichotomy: Division into two usually contradictory parts or opinions.
Alpha - - - Omega
First - - - - Last
Beginning - - End
Above - - - Below
In - - - - Out
Within - - - Without
Life - - - Death
Light - - - Dark
Eternal - - - Temporary
Immortal - - - Mortal
Love - - - Hate
Hope - - - Sorrow
Spirit - - - not-spirit
Heaven - - - not-heaven
Light - - - not-light
Good - - - not-good
Quickened - - - not-quickened
Holy - - - not-holy
The God - - - not-The God
ONE - - - NOTHING
That was fun.
Lets set it on its side:
Right - - - Left
Male - - - Female
Husband - - - Wife
Give - - - Take
Push - - - Pull
Lion - - - Lamb
Carnivore - - - Herbivore
Lets turn it some more:
Light - - - Dark
White - - - Black
Blue - - - Orange
Yellow - - - Purple
Red - - - Green
Ok, now I'm dizzy.
There also seems quite a few neutral bibilical concepts that seem to exist on BOTH sides of a spiritual/natural dichotomy:
king
thief
lion
rain
tree
fruit
spirit
god
woman
man
child
father
benign
malevolent
So, how bout a trichotomy? - just to keep from splitting the universe in two like those crazy naked kids did in paradise?
spirit - - soul - - - - body
positive - neutral - - negative
in - - - - middle - - - out
up - - - - middle - - - down
light - - form/color - shadow/reflection
life - - - knowledge - nourishment and pleasure
law - - - free - - - wild
Why not draw a dichotomy through a trichotomy to make a sextachotomy so we might try a more complex model of what it might be to be a human being?
right spirit/left spirit
right mind/left mind
right flesh/left flesh
or
inner spirit/outer spirit
inner mind/outer mind
inner flesh/outer flesh
or
masculine spirit/feminine spirit
masculine mind/feminine mind
masculine flesh/feminine flesh
or
carnivorous spirit/herbivorous spirit
carnivorous mind/herbivorous mind
carnivorous flesh/herbivorous flesh
Or maybe flip it on end for some sort of inverse:
1 - Inner spirit - eternal life
2 - Inner soul - - automatic life
3 - Inner flesh - internal systems
4 - Outer flesh - appearance
5 - Outer soul - - expression of self
6 - Outer spirit - spiritual manifestation
That would be a tough equilibrium to get on top of, let alone maintain all yer life?
What about a nonachotomy to express an even more manifold model?
- - - - - RIGHT - - MIDDLE - - LEFT
IN - - - - spirit - - spirit - - spirit
MIDDLE - mind - - mind - - - mind
OUT - - - flesh - - flesh - - flesh
(Mike, the line of your dichotomy would fit horizontally through the row of minds in this model.)
Hey, maybe even a decadichotomy - a system of 6 oppositions (12 forces) to express that marriage at the end of the world where heaven and earth finally meets again in whatever "New Jerusalem" means? If I was more enthused about it, I might try to express it by whipping up a jpeg using concentric circles rather than straight 2-D lines and graphs, or even concentric spheres. But I'm not.
In cosmological models, it seems that the numbers of sub-axis at any given crosshairs can and do diversify the more you reason, based on how much space you want to give them (i.e. how much free-time/space you want to blow on it.). But that eventually leads to chasing the dragon across the face of the deep, I suppose.
Ultimately, it seems that we can express spiritual paradigms that can never be 100% accurate or ultimate. They have limited application, as well as limited shelf-life.
They can be quintessential in character, even sublime. But baptising snapshots of cosmological formulas and pushing them as THE key seems one of the oldest human rackets there is.
How deep is God?
How high is heaven?
How dark is that darkness?
How many rungs are there on Jacob's ladder?
Vanity of vanities, saith the preacher, all is vanity.
No problem for me.
;)-->
tng
[This message was edited by sirguessalot on April 01, 2003 at 4:36.]
[This message was edited by sirguessalot on April 01, 2003 at 4:39.]
quote: The born-again man is righteous, and to be righteous means that we can stand before God in the righteous-ness with which He clothed us by our acceptance of Christ as our substitute for sin and the consequences of sin.
And this, my friends, is what allowed the great dictor to abuse, manipulate, and literally screw so many for so long. Having no care for the damage he did, the great dictor laughed at other?s immaturity and "sin" consciousness. Failing to understand his responsibilities before God, the great dictor plowed head on into a life of destruction and pain TOWARD OTHERS. His total disregard for the hearts of those who trusted him allowed the dictor to use, abuse, condemn and destroy so many. His extremism was the downfall of those he claimed to love.
I took Mike's advice and dug up the blue book today. Boy, was I surprised at what I'd missed. It was the perfect size to put under my dryer so it wouldn't wobble.
Amen, JesseJoe. That wasn't a definition, it was an excuse!
(BTW, I always hated that definition, because a definition shouldn't use the word it is trying to define in the explanation! Chalk up another one of VP's errors in PFAL. How come I saw that when I was 15, and Mike still can't see it?)
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Yanagisawa
Did you say "get the ball rolling" or get the kaballa rolling...for it sounds like that's your current freak - some sort of hidden, mystical kaballa-esque gnostic esotericism. I'm fascinated with you
Paul M. Stanley
I'm new here (left TWI from staff eons ago). I still believe the scriptures God-breathed. Despite the obvious plagarism in VP's writings, I came away thinking that studying the Bible was a whole lot cooler than I had ever known before. I guess God was able to make lemonade from lemons in my life.
So, what are we now to think of these hidden teachings...nothing. VPW was a plagarists. Plagarists are not that smart or subtle. Any effort to "weave" the "tapestry" of VPW's teachings is a counterfiet to how marvelously God put His word together. It elevates the teacher (VPW) and diminishes the Author (GOD).
Besides all that, the list looks like gobbledegook (literal according to usage...pardon me).
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Raf
First person to make a KISS joke gets a rap in the knuckles.
That said, Welcome to Greasespot, Paul!
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CWF
Mike, I believe there were too many things wrong, which led many, including myself, to walk away from TWI non-denominal denomination. That doesn't mean everyone has walked away from God. The two are not synonymous. There was a Godly reason for it's breakup.
You can't fix something that God wants dismantled.
Isn't it better that a hundred believers get their directives from Thee Source, that a hundred believers cow-towing to one believer and his supposed scorse?
There's balance in life that only the Creator can explain.
I don't know what to say, Mike. I do know when The Awakening comes, most want to save everybody, but not everybody is where you is at the time. Keep worken the Word, and you may find that you believe something different than VP. Doesn't make him evil, and you good. For cripe sakes, if life isn't about learning and growing in the spirit, then I don't know what this life is aboot.
I know God is merciful, gracious, and faithful, and will go to the uttermost for His children.
Anticipating The Lords Return,
CWF
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TheSongRemainsTheSame
Is this one of those canrnival mirror tricks???
posted March 31, 2003 17:58
SONG...
...Step right up to guess your weight....
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
BY MIKE>>>
Here are some key words Dr often used with reference to one realm or the other:
Some of these are obvious, some are subtle. There are some that are still a work in progress, so please, let?s not get all bogged down in the details of which ones should be on the list or not. This is still introductory, and the details will come up again, later.
These words, in the PFAL writings, are reserved for emphasizing the spiritual side:
divine
essentially
fervently
genuine
good
honest
information
just
lovely
real
really
true
To some degree, some words are paired off so that one emphasizes the natural and the other the spiritual:
(please pardon the crude tabulation)
......................................Natural .../... Spiritual
......................................Factual .../... True
...........................................fact .../... truth
.....................................analyze .../... ascertain
...................................believing .../... faith
........................................below .../... above
.........................................Bible .../... Word of God
................................body&soul .../... spirit
................................corruptible .../... incorruptible
.................................countless .../... innumerable
.........................earthen vessel .../... treasure
......................................earthly .../... heavenly
...............................everlasting .../... eternal
............................everyday life .../... real, reality
...................................external .../... internal
....................................feelings .../... revelation
.........................................finite .../... infinite
.........................................flesh .../... spirit
.......................................carnal .../... spiritual
...................................anything .../... everything
.....immediate prophecy fulfillment .../... ultimate prophecy fulfillment
........................................static .../... dynamic
..................................5-senses .../... spiritual perception
................................forthtelling .../... foretelling
..............................government .../... gift ministries
................................happiness .../... joy
.........................................hear .../... see
.....................................human .../... divine
...............................immediate .../... ultimate
............................Jesus Christ .../... Christ Jesus
.........................................brag .../... glory
..........................................light .../... dark
........................................literal .../... figurative
.......................................make .../... create
.........................................man .../... Son of God
.........................man's viewpoint .../... God's viewpoint
.......................................mortal .../... immortal
.........................................night .../... day
......................................people .../... man
.......................................phileo .../... agape
....................................physical .../... spiritual
......................................reason .../... logic
.....................................religion .../... Christianity
..........................religious leader .../... doulos servant
......................................rhema .../... logos
....................................sensual .../... spiritual
................................sentences .../... communication
..........................Simon's cross .../... Jesus' cross
..................................sincerely .../... study/work to rightly divide
..............................Son of man .../... Son of God
..........................................soul .../... spirit
.....................................spoken .../... written
.....................................surface .../... deep
....................................tangible .../... unseen
..........................................tape .../... book
...................................teaching .../... instruction
.................................terrestrial .../... celestial
.........................................think .../... know
......................................visible .../... invisible
........................................satan .../... devil
................Gen.1:1 to Rev. 22:21 .../... Genesis to Revelation
.....................................opinion .../... right dividing
>>>>
Oh Jeesh ... That is what I left out all the 2wenty yearz my involOVEment PFanAL!!!???
forgive me... i am hummmbled... NO BLOOD LEFT FOR twI...
Hey Mike ... do you run PFAL CLASSES!!!??? have you ever checked out fractal curves???
[This message was edited by TheSongRemainsTheSame on March 31, 2003 at 20:09.]
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mj412
Mike I am not hurt and if I can annoy you, Well who the hell are you to complain about it????
I do not think anyone wants to fix pfal or what happened in twi, many here can tell you it is a wasted attempt at nothingness...'
or we could turn into YOU!
either choice looks well I have no spiritual or natural or suble or any word to describe other than .
hopeless.
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Stayed Too Long
Larry--can I please change my vote to number 3: I never read anything he writes, so I don't care one way or another?
Don't allow resentment and bitterness to hinder healing.
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SlingShot
ok
[This message was edited by SlingShot on April 06, 2003 at 22:48.]
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Zixar
Of course, you can help by not feeding the troll, i.e., just stop replying to those posters you disagree with.
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TheSongRemainsTheSame
the word bogus comes to mind...
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Mike
Here is first place we encounter Dr bringing up, right out in the open, this subject of the Natural/Factual vs. the Spiritual/True Realms. It occurs in the middle of the chapter ?Are You Limiting God?? in the Blue Book.
**********************************
?The Bible Tells Me So?
pages 23-25... (......substituting ALL CAPS for italics.....)
Have we been limiting God in our lives? We must
be if we do not have all sufficiency in everything.
Sufficiency is the will of God for His children in
order that His children may abound unto every good
work. Our having sufficiency is God?s will for us; yet
how many of us have limited God by not allowing
Him to fulfill this promise in our lives? How slow we
have been to realize that God is our ability, that He is
the life of our lives, the strength of our strength, that
He is our sufficiency.
We frequently limit God in ourselves by our wrong
believing, by accepting the knowledge that comes to
us through our senses. Our reason says, ?That just
cannot be,? and so we confess the negative, when all
the time His spirit within us is crying out, ?Sufficiency
in everything.? We have been so schooled to
revere the knowledge that comes to us through our
five senses that we fail to recognize the knowledge
that comes from the higher realm, the spiritual, where
the Word of God, and not reason, has first place.
Both realms or worlds are here: the natural world is
factual; the spiritual world is true. As there are four
kingdoms in this world, and one supersedes the other:
the plant kingdom, animal kingdom, kingdom of man
and the Kingdom of God; so, there is a natural world
and a supernatural or spiritual world. The natural
world and everything in it comes to the mind through
or by way of the natural senses. The truths of the
spiritual world are absolutely NOT dependent upon the
senses, but rather on the spirit from God in man.
We cannot know anything about the spiritual
world by way of the senses. That is why Paul said by
divine inspiration in I Corinthians 2:14, ?But the
natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of
God: for they are foolishness unto him ... because
they [spiritual matters] are spiritually discerned.?
Spiritual things from the spiritual world may be
known in this world only by the spirit which dwells
in us. Then, and only then, can the Spirit relate
impressions and truths to us about the spiritual world
and make them logical. Then, and only then, do we
have the God-given ability within us, making known
to us things about the spiritual world.
Time and time again, after I have explained the
difference between the natural and spiritual worlds,
how the one supersedes the other and that two
entirely different sets of laws are in existence, people
have said to me that they were thereafter able to give
God the place He deserves. Then they refused to limit
God within themselves.
Few people realize the great spiritual truth of
Christ?s substitution and the believer?s righteousness.
A man in whom the new creation lives is righteous
before God, according to the Word of God. The
born-again man is righteous, and to be righteous
means that we can stand before God in the righteous-
ness with which He clothed us by our acceptance of
Christ as our substitute for sin and the consequences
of sin.
************************************
I?ve come back to these Blue Book pages many, many times in the past 5 years. Getting to know how all these words were used very carefully by Dr is essential to understanding his teachings in their fullness.
The key vocabulary words I?ve identified and their distinctive Natural/Factual ? Spiritual/True associations are expounded upon in several more places besides this Blue Book passage. However they also are utilized with these same distinctive associations in ALL his teachings, and often in very subtle and hidden ways.
[This message was edited by Mike on March 31, 2003 at 22:23.]
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TheSongRemainsTheSame
he y..;
[This message was edited by TheSongRemainsTheSame on March 31, 2003 at 21:35.]
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Stayed Too Long
Maybe the new servers GS is going to will have limited space and posts will be edited. [/b]]I really believe it is our only hope![/b]
Don't allow resentment and bitterness to hinder healing.
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TheSongRemainsTheSame
Tibetian Book of the DEAD is A good one,,,
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Mike
Here is another key place in Dr?s writings to note. I have mentioned this place previously, in more than one post, but only briefly. This passage is from the opening of Chapter 2 ?The Benefits of God? in Volume IV. It?s the chapter where the entire Psalm 103 is taught.
*************************************
?God?s Magnified Word?
page 14
Psalms 103 is a tremendous example of knowledge
and praise. Just the reading of it thrills the heart of
anyone who loves God. The beauty with which this
is set just from a human point of view, without even
thinking of its spiritual impact, should set at peace
the soul of any man or woman. For us as born-again
believers there are tremendous spiritual truths hidden
in this psalm that will elevate and enrich our lives as
we learn them.
*************************************
Line #4 mentions the Natural realm ?a human point of view.?
Line #5 the ?spiritual impact.?
Line #8 mentions how the spiritual is hidden from the 5-senses.
Here Dr teaches us that Psalm 103 can have more than just the 5-senses meaning we get with a natural reading. When passages and topics like this came to my dim attention in the 70?s, it seemed obvious and unimportant. I didn?t pay very close attention to passages like this back then.
Just like Psalm 103 has the potential to impart to us the hidden, deeper spiritual understanding, so do the PFAL writings. God arraigned it that way to help us go farther than believers have been able to go since the first century.
As we master the material on the 5-senses level, then God can give us the spiritual understanding. This is key #4 to walking in the spirit we were taught in the Advanced Class.
I didn?t pay very close attention to passages like page 14 of Vol. IV, or pages 23-25 of the Blue Book, back then... but... after looking at these matters closely in recent years I have since learned that this the precise point, the need to attain a deeper spiritual understanding of PFAL, where we older grad leadership balked in the 80?s. Our egos hit this stumbling block in obeying Dr?s oft issued instructions to master the material. Dr told us to master PFAL, to get into it again at the deeper, spiritual level, but we thought our 5-senses understanding of the material was sufficient.
It wasn?t.
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WordWolf
*plays Revolution #9 backwards*
Hey, there's secret messages hidden in this!
---------
Mike, if you looked a the cracks in sidewalk
concrete long enough, you would find patterns in
it. That's a hard-wired function in the brain-
pattern recognition. However, like any
identification program, it can glitch, and
misidentify stuff.
People were killed in Europe when villagers sought
to find the person responsible for bad things
happening to them-like bad weather or disease in
crops. They refused to accept that there WAS no
guiding pattern, and kept looking until they
"found" one. So, people were killed for
"witchcraft". Even Sigmund Freud, whose entire
career was based on finding patterns said
"sometimes a cigar is just a cigar."
There's a lesson, there.
CLFOBS Ministries. Join NOW!
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sirguessalot
GSC,
Please forgive me if my notes are considered copious, but I like to write, and Mike enjoys the rigamorole. Besides, this is his thread.
;)--> But, as mentioned elsewhere recently, the GSC's doctrinal table seems a more suitable venue for this stuff anyway (unless you really want everyone see your headlines at the top of the paper). Oh well.
Mike,
Honest question for ya: Does persecution strengthen your faith?
If so, heerz a quote that might make ya chuckle (or weep): "Success is going from failure to failure without a loss of enthusiam." Winston Churchill.
OK,
Problem #1 - you seem to assume everyone else is more stupider than you.
Problem #2 - you seem to assume everyone else missed the EXACT same things you did in your own PFAL experience.
Problem #3 - you seem to assume that only those mysteries YOU have found in PFAL are worth the most.
Problem #4 - you seem to assume everyone else who wishes to be as smart as you about PFAL should be as willing as they are able to solve your riddles and find the cheese at the end of your maze.
Problem #5 - you seem to assume everyone else will marvel at the simplest of paradigms.
I can only suggest that THESE are the problems you should be trying to solve, my friend. And if you can, you may just meet more minds and hearts than that silent audience your faith is telling you is out there.
Otherwise,
Are you suggesting we hafta get into VP?s mind in order to understood what his words meant to him, in order to understand advanced/basic PFAL, in order to understand the bible, in order to understand/get into the Kingdom of Heaven? a.k.a - ?Light through a Wierwillian Window? or ?Wierwillian Mannerisms that Perplex the Greasespot Mind??
That would be quite a camel-load of apparatus you want us to squeeze through the eye of the needle, dude.
Also, are you suggesting that recognizing VPW's dichotomies in PFAL is a sign of spiritual maturity? Maybe even THE sign of spiritual maturity?
I can?t help but wince at your being confounded and awestruck by some rather universal concepts of heaven and earth.
Regardless, I'll play along. Although I will step outside the lines of your FORMula of duality for understanding da verd. Sorry - I know how you hate to step outside of cages and boxes, but some have been playing these kinds of word games since we were kids, long before we learned PFAL lingo.
Dichotomy: Division into two usually contradictory parts or opinions.
Alpha - - - Omega
First - - - - Last
Beginning - - End
Above - - - Below
In - - - - Out
Within - - - Without
Life - - - Death
Light - - - Dark
Eternal - - - Temporary
Immortal - - - Mortal
Love - - - Hate
Hope - - - Sorrow
Spirit - - - not-spirit
Heaven - - - not-heaven
Light - - - not-light
Good - - - not-good
Quickened - - - not-quickened
Holy - - - not-holy
The God - - - not-The God
ONE - - - NOTHING
That was fun.
Lets set it on its side:
Right - - - Left
Male - - - Female
Husband - - - Wife
Give - - - Take
Push - - - Pull
Lion - - - Lamb
Carnivore - - - Herbivore
Lets turn it some more:
Light - - - Dark
White - - - Black
Blue - - - Orange
Yellow - - - Purple
Red - - - Green
Ok, now I'm dizzy.
There also seems quite a few neutral bibilical concepts that seem to exist on BOTH sides of a spiritual/natural dichotomy:
king
thief
lion
rain
tree
fruit
spirit
god
woman
man
child
father
benign
malevolent
So, how bout a trichotomy? - just to keep from splitting the universe in two like those crazy naked kids did in paradise?
spirit - - soul - - - - body
positive - neutral - - negative
in - - - - middle - - - out
up - - - - middle - - - down
light - - form/color - shadow/reflection
life - - - knowledge - nourishment and pleasure
law - - - free - - - wild
Why not draw a dichotomy through a trichotomy to make a sextachotomy so we might try a more complex model of what it might be to be a human being?
right spirit/left spirit
right mind/left mind
right flesh/left flesh
or
inner spirit/outer spirit
inner mind/outer mind
inner flesh/outer flesh
or
masculine spirit/feminine spirit
masculine mind/feminine mind
masculine flesh/feminine flesh
or
carnivorous spirit/herbivorous spirit
carnivorous mind/herbivorous mind
carnivorous flesh/herbivorous flesh
Or maybe flip it on end for some sort of inverse:
1 - Inner spirit - eternal life
2 - Inner soul - - automatic life
3 - Inner flesh - internal systems
4 - Outer flesh - appearance
5 - Outer soul - - expression of self
6 - Outer spirit - spiritual manifestation
That would be a tough equilibrium to get on top of, let alone maintain all yer life?
What about a nonachotomy to express an even more manifold model?
- - - - - RIGHT - - MIDDLE - - LEFT
IN - - - - spirit - - spirit - - spirit
MIDDLE - mind - - mind - - - mind
OUT - - - flesh - - flesh - - flesh
(Mike, the line of your dichotomy would fit horizontally through the row of minds in this model.)
Hey, maybe even a decadichotomy - a system of 6 oppositions (12 forces) to express that marriage at the end of the world where heaven and earth finally meets again in whatever "New Jerusalem" means? If I was more enthused about it, I might try to express it by whipping up a jpeg using concentric circles rather than straight 2-D lines and graphs, or even concentric spheres. But I'm not.
In cosmological models, it seems that the numbers of sub-axis at any given crosshairs can and do diversify the more you reason, based on how much space you want to give them (i.e. how much free-time/space you want to blow on it.). But that eventually leads to chasing the dragon across the face of the deep, I suppose.
Ultimately, it seems that we can express spiritual paradigms that can never be 100% accurate or ultimate. They have limited application, as well as limited shelf-life.
They can be quintessential in character, even sublime. But baptising snapshots of cosmological formulas and pushing them as THE key seems one of the oldest human rackets there is.
How deep is God?
How high is heaven?
How dark is that darkness?
How many rungs are there on Jacob's ladder?
Vanity of vanities, saith the preacher, all is vanity.
No problem for me.
tng
[This message was edited by sirguessalot on April 01, 2003 at 4:36.]
[This message was edited by sirguessalot on April 01, 2003 at 4:39.]
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sirguessalot
doop post..oops
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sirguessalot
double doop post - what the heck is going on?
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shazdancer
Thanks, SirGuess, your list of "Problems" said it very succinctly, and your wordplay was a lot of fun!
Regards,
shaz
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JesseJoe
Vike quoting Mic
And this, my friends, is what allowed the great dictor to abuse, manipulate, and literally screw so many for so long. Having no care for the damage he did, the great dictor laughed at other?s immaturity and "sin" consciousness. Failing to understand his responsibilities before God, the great dictor plowed head on into a life of destruction and pain TOWARD OTHERS. His total disregard for the hearts of those who trusted him allowed the dictor to use, abuse, condemn and destroy so many. His extremism was the downfall of those he claimed to love.
Jesse
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Yanagisawa
I took Mike's advice and dug up the blue book today. Boy, was I surprised at what I'd missed. It was the perfect size to put under my dryer so it wouldn't wobble.
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Shellon
...
[This message was edited by Shellon on May 30, 2003 at 2:48.]
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MATILDA
WHEW...I ran out of Ipecac...this stuff should do in case of emergency...
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shazdancer
Amen, JesseJoe. That wasn't a definition, it was an excuse!
(BTW, I always hated that definition, because a definition shouldn't use the word it is trying to define in the explanation! Chalk up another one of VP's errors in PFAL. How come I saw that when I was 15, and Mike still can't see it?)
Regards,
shaz
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