I want to restate Groucho's admonition to keep all of your situation particulars completely benign. Don't in anyway give enough information here on gspot that can or could possibly give the WayGb enough information to identify you. There a number of posters here that were "out-ed" because the way spies were able to eventually identify them.
I'd say attempting to win child custody based on the 'badness' of TWI is a very difficult thing to do. Judges simply don't want to hear things about a religious group because in this country, we have religious freedom.
That being said, I was successful in obtaining full custody of my kids from my still 'in' ex-husband.
How did I do it? Well, several ways. First of all, I did my research and was fully prepared to win a case based on the cult thing, and my ex knew it. I had documentation, video tapes, audio tapes, etc. I had two large file boxes full of information.
Second, it dragged out for a few years, until my ex was dating someone who was also 'in'. I'd pretended I wanted to get back with him and started writing his Limb Coordinator (state leader) telling him we had children who were beginning to enter their teens and needed BOTH parents and would he (the leader) help counsel us so we could get back together for our kids! BOY did that stir up the pot !! That Limb Leader came down on him and got him moving on this thing faster than anything! He'd told the Limb Coord. (or allowed him to believe) that we were already divorced (we were just 'separated' for about 5 years) and it was the Limb Coord who helped fix him up with his ex-corps girlfriend. Egg on his face, for sure!!
Another critical thing...after all the times he was late making child support payments, or just didn't make them at all (and me trying to be 'understanding' and not doing anything about it). I finally TOOK ACTION when he missed a payment and didn't pay for 30 days. I had him arrested for 'abandoning his children' (the requirements are no money, no food, no clothing, NOTHING to provide for them for 30 days continuous, it's considered "abandonment").
It turned out that was the ticket. When we went to court to finish up the divorce and decide custody, he was anxious to get those charges dropped against him so he could save face in TWI and continue to be a good little 'believer' so he was willing to negotiate. He also wanted to continue his relationship with his new girlfriend. Lucky me.
He ended up negotiating away his custody arrangements. He got no custody. I got full custody, care and control of the children with a stipulation that they were NOT allowed to go to TWI classes at all. My daughter, who was 14 at the time, wanted to still visit with her father and didn't mind going to fellowships on the Sundays that she was there, so I allowed her to do that.
My son, who was 12 or 13, didn't want anything to do with TWI so he had me put in that there were NO fellowship meetings at all for him. He couldn't even go to a picnic with his father if there were other people from TWI there. Boy, was my son happy.
My daughter, who was still daddy's little girl, was a more delicate thing. I had to give her something or she would have rebelled and caused me a lot of grief. The way we did it...with neither of them having to go for visitation unless they wanted to made it easy for her to say no when she didn't want to be around them. Their dad used to force their visitations, even if they didn't want to go.
Now that my daughter is grown, and even by the time she was in high school, she had seen the light and wasn't very willing to go to her dad's, and even became somewhat resentful that she couldn't go over for a visit without Way people being there, or having to go off to a dumb fellowship somewhere.
Another point of resentment for both my children: they have seen me work my behind off to give them the things they needed, a stable home (not an apartment that we move from with different roommates every year), vacations, college. My daughter is so sick of hearing her father say, "It's not in my budget." There are two people making money in his household now (he married that woman) and yet all their money goes to TWI. My daughter and I paid for her college. Her father didn't help a bit.
Unfortunately, my son has very little to do with his father now. His father used to blame me but I threw it right back in his face and told him his own actions are what caused his son to be distanced from him.
Good luck with the case. It is a difficult one to win, but it can be won. Just keep praying, and when God tells you to do something, DO IT! I would have been in for a long, drawn out ordeal had my ex not screwed up and 'forgotten' to pay child support and had I not filed charges against him for it, when he'd done that for many years previously ! It was just that one time that counted...
Here's what I learned from taking my ex to court. (Our case had nothing to do with the way).
1. Be the best parent you can be - loving and supporting. Enjoy your time with your kids as if your ex wasn't in the picture. Don't do anything out of spite or revenge - it's not worth it. If you do this, eventually your kids will understand and see the light, or else they won't. They do after all have minds of their own. But there's a better chance they will if you're loving, supportive and not vengeful.
2. Laws differ in each state. Get a good lawyer who's familiar with cults and psychological damage. But be aware that courts don't see their job as determining who is the better parent. And thank god they don't. They will try to determine if the kid is in grave danger, and prevent that. However they see danger in the starkest and most physical terms. Psychological danger has to be really really severe to be acted on by most courts.
3. The point about a guardian ad leitum is a good one - your lawyer should be able to recommend. A GAL is a lawyer who represents the children's best interests. This is different from the children having their own attorney who would be required to represent their wishes rather than their best interests. GALs are usually used for younger children. When I hired one, my kids were 11 and 12 and people were surprised that someone that age needed a GAL but those that understood the situation and my ex's emotional problems realized it was a good thing.
I appreciate all of the advice and help that each of you offer.
Fortunately, the judge in this matter frowns on any co-parent that uses religion or any other matter to try to drive a wedge between parent and child. We are lucky to have a judge that recognizes that children are best served by two loving parents working together for the best interest and happiness of thieir child! It sounds so simple, doesn't it?
I will keep all of you updated. And, if there is ever a day that the regulars of this site have a newbie looking for custody advise, please have them PM me. I won't always be on this site. However, I'll alway respond to another looking for advice on how to save an innocent from being trapped and never knowing what true spiritual freemom is!
I am sure if TWI had any tapes with incriminating things on it, they got rid of them. I'm sure many tapes from LCM's rantings are no longer in their archives.
They can also subpoena them from TWIts knowing that the tapes are out there, couldn't they? I mean - Moneyhands hasn't ever thrown a tape away in his whole life - AND he types of transcripts of all of them. All they'd have to do is sequester his tapes and files. I'm sure he's not the only WC to do so. He also sends those transcripts out to a bunch of people each week.
Sorry I don't realy have any new info that could be useful--and I think I threw away the way rag that focused on the homo situation. If I hear anything I will post it or pm you.
And now y'all have way gb scrambling to destroy the incriminating tapes and transcripts!! lol
Dittos with Penguin. I left about 7 months ago. Mark and avoid is not taught as such, but is still observed. As of a few weeks ago, I was told by someone who just left, that they were instructed to not have contact with someone in the fellowship who could not attend at this time until he/she gets their "stuff" together. So mark and avoid is still in practice, but no stated as such. This command was given by Corps.
As DJS stated, much depends on local leadership.
Commendations to you and prayers for your involvement in the situation you are dealing with.
Much love..ILB
PS: We are still receiving the Way Mag, but I haven't perused it well.
(Interesting Shell, about the use of code words for communication. I think that is clever between parent and child so the child can communicate if in trouble.)
My wife tried to get in touch with a TWI country coordinator when he visited some of our freinds. However, we were told through our freinds that TWI didn't allow him to speak to us! This is a guy that I used to share a room with. Look mate, if you're reading this - get in touch. You might be surprised at what you find. PM me with your phone number and I will call you. Jesus Christ spoke to the devil himself, and I'm not even half that bad. Just do it and quit stalling. Never mind what the beak says, go with your heart, my freind.
I want to restate Groucho's admonition to keep all of your situation particulars completely benign. Don't in anyway give enough information here on gspot that can or could possibly give the WayGb enough information to identify you. There a number of posters here that were "out-ed" because the way spies were able to eventually identify them.
Patty Fae and Stephen are of little interest...unless they are intersted in donating current TWI teachings--
If there is anyone who can name all of the agents (for lack of a better word) for TWI in Tennessee, I would be eternally thankful - thankful to a loving, caring, forgiving, inclusive, god that loves us all equally and wants us all to be enlightened.
Agents means any person that is paid/unpaid but an active teacher/recruiter (whatever) branch, limb, twig, leaf, bark? of TWI. Honestly, I'm not trying to be disrespectful, but the secretive teachings, the illusions to trees, and the utter lack of understanding of TWI in what a genuine earth based belief is grounded in makes the tree analogy rotten to the TRUNK! Better yet...all the way to the roots.
I will admit that I've never been, nor will I ever be, a disciple of TWI. In fact, I've never even heard of this "religion" until the past two years. However, I'm a child of a cult follower. I will always be thankful that this "cult" was mostly a copy-cat and blending several world religions and preaching religious education and tolerance. Sadly, this group is/was out to make money off of folks who just wanted tolerance at a time when (at least in this area) was not popular.
There is a phrase I've used often with my husband, who happens to be a non-believer of TWI (heard and didn't buy it) that to this day he cannot comprehend, "I can believe everything, yet I believe nothing at all."
However, he insists that those beliefs cannot exist in the same person. To this day, I disagree. One can look and find bits of truth in everything, yet absolute truth in nothing at all...with the exception of god's only "word" - look around at the beauty of just a sunrise!
I have to say the tactics, control, and fear instilled in followers of TWI is unnerving. But, always remember, Truth can withstand the Light. If someone claims they have truth yet shrinks from the Light...RUN!
You all are wonderful. Thank you for your thoughts, always.
You should be aware that a lot of the teaching in TWI has been "distilled" down from the teachings of others. Some of the "borrowed" teaching has been known and debated for some time prior to TWI appearing. So not all the teaching should be disregarded "out of hand". This is my opinion. I should add that the interpretation and application of scriptures by TWI is, in many cases, very poor, and in some cases absolutely disastrous.
However, as you rightly point out, The Way Tree analogy has no scriptural foundation.
There was a class called "The Way Tree" which I know was running up to at least 1978. No disrespect to the teacher of the class, but the teaching in the class is totally wrong and against the scriptures. I don't think the class is taught anymore, but as far as I know, there has been no apology made by either the Way or the teacher of the class for the teaching it contains.
Yet the Way continues to operate with a "Tree" structure that is totally anti-scriptural in its structure.
If you doubt this, why not bring the topic up with your coordinator and "watch them squirm".
This in no way detracts from the integrity of the scriptures or from the deliverance and healing power in the name of Jesus Christ.
Edawn - may God give you the stength to continue with your quest.
Patty Faye and Stephen are of little interest to anyone much in this area. I feel safe in saying that there are only about 50 people in TWI. Cleveland, TN is a whopping 0 now to Bristol Tenn who at last numbered were the members of a family of about 7. Knoxville pratices the Mark and Avoid to those who have left and gossip about their followers who are within their little cult. Maybe 35 locally at tops. I do know that Nashville dropped considerably to a very miminal total.
Fellowships are mostly family members within their own home with a stragler or two from 20-30 miles away who want to remain with the group. There are more children in the group than adults in this area.
I did notice children being very controled and distant from both adults and other children. It is possible that these adults are beginning to realize just what could happen to their children if they are let out of their sight by other members still brain sinking the teaching. After all, age makes no difference. Scary.
Don't expect any information to be given to you by any innie until you are accepted by the Coordinators and invited to a meeting. The real blows of teachings come after the classes and each one gives a little more cult teachings thrown in for the brain to concieve. You will be a babe until all the classes are over then you will be confronted and yes--spit at like the slivering tongue of a rattle snake.
Little advice: Stand still and when you get the right opportunity grab it by it's neck and stomp it's head off!
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edawn,
I want to restate Groucho's admonition to keep all of your situation particulars completely benign. Don't in anyway give enough information here on gspot that can or could possibly give the WayGb enough information to identify you. There a number of posters here that were "out-ed" because the way spies were able to eventually identify them.
Go with God,
ROR
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Robes
I'd say attempting to win child custody based on the 'badness' of TWI is a very difficult thing to do. Judges simply don't want to hear things about a religious group because in this country, we have religious freedom.
That being said, I was successful in obtaining full custody of my kids from my still 'in' ex-husband.
How did I do it? Well, several ways. First of all, I did my research and was fully prepared to win a case based on the cult thing, and my ex knew it. I had documentation, video tapes, audio tapes, etc. I had two large file boxes full of information.
Second, it dragged out for a few years, until my ex was dating someone who was also 'in'. I'd pretended I wanted to get back with him and started writing his Limb Coordinator (state leader) telling him we had children who were beginning to enter their teens and needed BOTH parents and would he (the leader) help counsel us so we could get back together for our kids! BOY did that stir up the pot !! That Limb Leader came down on him and got him moving on this thing faster than anything! He'd told the Limb Coord. (or allowed him to believe) that we were already divorced (we were just 'separated' for about 5 years) and it was the Limb Coord who helped fix him up with his ex-corps girlfriend. Egg on his face, for sure!!
Another critical thing...after all the times he was late making child support payments, or just didn't make them at all (and me trying to be 'understanding' and not doing anything about it). I finally TOOK ACTION when he missed a payment and didn't pay for 30 days. I had him arrested for 'abandoning his children' (the requirements are no money, no food, no clothing, NOTHING to provide for them for 30 days continuous, it's considered "abandonment").
It turned out that was the ticket. When we went to court to finish up the divorce and decide custody, he was anxious to get those charges dropped against him so he could save face in TWI and continue to be a good little 'believer' so he was willing to negotiate. He also wanted to continue his relationship with his new girlfriend. Lucky me.
He ended up negotiating away his custody arrangements. He got no custody. I got full custody, care and control of the children with a stipulation that they were NOT allowed to go to TWI classes at all. My daughter, who was 14 at the time, wanted to still visit with her father and didn't mind going to fellowships on the Sundays that she was there, so I allowed her to do that.
My son, who was 12 or 13, didn't want anything to do with TWI so he had me put in that there were NO fellowship meetings at all for him. He couldn't even go to a picnic with his father if there were other people from TWI there. Boy, was my son happy.
My daughter, who was still daddy's little girl, was a more delicate thing. I had to give her something or she would have rebelled and caused me a lot of grief. The way we did it...with neither of them having to go for visitation unless they wanted to made it easy for her to say no when she didn't want to be around them. Their dad used to force their visitations, even if they didn't want to go.
Now that my daughter is grown, and even by the time she was in high school, she had seen the light and wasn't very willing to go to her dad's, and even became somewhat resentful that she couldn't go over for a visit without Way people being there, or having to go off to a dumb fellowship somewhere.
Another point of resentment for both my children: they have seen me work my behind off to give them the things they needed, a stable home (not an apartment that we move from with different roommates every year), vacations, college. My daughter is so sick of hearing her father say, "It's not in my budget." There are two people making money in his household now (he married that woman) and yet all their money goes to TWI. My daughter and I paid for her college. Her father didn't help a bit.
Unfortunately, my son has very little to do with his father now. His father used to blame me but I threw it right back in his face and told him his own actions are what caused his son to be distanced from him.
Good luck with the case. It is a difficult one to win, but it can be won. Just keep praying, and when God tells you to do something, DO IT! I would have been in for a long, drawn out ordeal had my ex not screwed up and 'forgotten' to pay child support and had I not filed charges against him for it, when he'd done that for many years previously ! It was just that one time that counted...
Robes
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My3Cents
I think Robes has some good points.
Here's what I learned from taking my ex to court. (Our case had nothing to do with the way).
1. Be the best parent you can be - loving and supporting. Enjoy your time with your kids as if your ex wasn't in the picture. Don't do anything out of spite or revenge - it's not worth it. If you do this, eventually your kids will understand and see the light, or else they won't. They do after all have minds of their own. But there's a better chance they will if you're loving, supportive and not vengeful.
2. Laws differ in each state. Get a good lawyer who's familiar with cults and psychological damage. But be aware that courts don't see their job as determining who is the better parent. And thank god they don't. They will try to determine if the kid is in grave danger, and prevent that. However they see danger in the starkest and most physical terms. Psychological danger has to be really really severe to be acted on by most courts.
3. The point about a guardian ad leitum is a good one - your lawyer should be able to recommend. A GAL is a lawyer who represents the children's best interests. This is different from the children having their own attorney who would be required to represent their wishes rather than their best interests. GALs are usually used for younger children. When I hired one, my kids were 11 and 12 and people were surprised that someone that age needed a GAL but those that understood the situation and my ex's emotional problems realized it was a good thing.
Good luck.
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edawn
I appreciate all of the advice and help that each of you offer.
Fortunately, the judge in this matter frowns on any co-parent that uses religion or any other matter to try to drive a wedge between parent and child. We are lucky to have a judge that recognizes that children are best served by two loving parents working together for the best interest and happiness of thieir child! It sounds so simple, doesn't it?
I will keep all of you updated. And, if there is ever a day that the regulars of this site have a newbie looking for custody advise, please have them PM me. I won't always be on this site. However, I'll alway respond to another looking for advice on how to save an innocent from being trapped and never knowing what true spiritual freemom is!
Best hopes and wishes to all!
Edawn.
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dmiller
Take care, and good luck. :)
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johniam
If TWI has a tape library, couldn't any tape be subpoenaed?
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Nottawayfer
I am sure if TWI had any tapes with incriminating things on it, they got rid of them. I'm sure many tapes from LCM's rantings are no longer in their archives.
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coolchef1248 @adelphia.net
i bet you are right wafernot
or could they be that stupid??
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GT
They can be that stupid, and even more as they are apt to prove.
I've seen their tape library. They record and store everything. I doubt they even know what is on half of it.
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Belle
They can also subpoena them from TWIts knowing that the tapes are out there, couldn't they? I mean - Moneyhands hasn't ever thrown a tape away in his whole life - AND he types of transcripts of all of them. All they'd have to do is sequester his tapes and files. I'm sure he's not the only WC to do so. He also sends those transcripts out to a bunch of people each week.
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penguin
Edawn,
Sorry I don't realy have any new info that could be useful--and I think I threw away the way rag that focused on the homo situation. If I hear anything I will post it or pm you.
And now y'all have way gb scrambling to destroy the incriminating tapes and transcripts!! lol
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I Love Bagpipes
Edawn...
Dittos with Penguin. I left about 7 months ago. Mark and avoid is not taught as such, but is still observed. As of a few weeks ago, I was told by someone who just left, that they were instructed to not have contact with someone in the fellowship who could not attend at this time until he/she gets their "stuff" together. So mark and avoid is still in practice, but no stated as such. This command was given by Corps.
As DJS stated, much depends on local leadership.
Commendations to you and prayers for your involvement in the situation you are dealing with.
Much love..ILB
PS: We are still receiving the Way Mag, but I haven't perused it well.
(Interesting Shell, about the use of code words for communication. I think that is clever between parent and child so the child can communicate if in trouble.)
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Pete
Regarding "Mark and Avoid"
My wife tried to get in touch with a TWI country coordinator when he visited some of our freinds. However, we were told through our freinds that TWI didn't allow him to speak to us! This is a guy that I used to share a room with. Look mate, if you're reading this - get in touch. You might be surprised at what you find. PM me with your phone number and I will call you. Jesus Christ spoke to the devil himself, and I'm not even half that bad. Just do it and quit stalling. Never mind what the beak says, go with your heart, my freind.
Love
Pete
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edawn
I really appreciate all the information that each of you have given me. Each suggestion has given me a new avenue to pursue in my research.
You have all been a great help.
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skipC
Edawn
What location in TN are you needing to know about? Patty Faye and Stephen are really close to me in this area.
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Tom Strange
Just a reminder...
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skipC
Edawn, you can PT if you want. Thant's your choice here.
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edawn
Patty Fae and Stephen are of little interest...unless they are intersted in donating current TWI teachings--
If there is anyone who can name all of the agents (for lack of a better word) for TWI in Tennessee, I would be eternally thankful - thankful to a loving, caring, forgiving, inclusive, god that loves us all equally and wants us all to be enlightened.
Agents means any person that is paid/unpaid but an active teacher/recruiter (whatever) branch, limb, twig, leaf, bark? of TWI. Honestly, I'm not trying to be disrespectful, but the secretive teachings, the illusions to trees, and the utter lack of understanding of TWI in what a genuine earth based belief is grounded in makes the tree analogy rotten to the TRUNK! Better yet...all the way to the roots.
I will admit that I've never been, nor will I ever be, a disciple of TWI. In fact, I've never even heard of this "religion" until the past two years. However, I'm a child of a cult follower. I will always be thankful that this "cult" was mostly a copy-cat and blending several world religions and preaching religious education and tolerance. Sadly, this group is/was out to make money off of folks who just wanted tolerance at a time when (at least in this area) was not popular.
There is a phrase I've used often with my husband, who happens to be a non-believer of TWI (heard and didn't buy it) that to this day he cannot comprehend, "I can believe everything, yet I believe nothing at all."
However, he insists that those beliefs cannot exist in the same person. To this day, I disagree. One can look and find bits of truth in everything, yet absolute truth in nothing at all...with the exception of god's only "word" - look around at the beauty of just a sunrise!
I have to say the tactics, control, and fear instilled in followers of TWI is unnerving. But, always remember, Truth can withstand the Light. If someone claims they have truth yet shrinks from the Light...RUN!
You all are wonderful. Thank you for your thoughts, always.
Edawn
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Pete
Edawn
You should be aware that a lot of the teaching in TWI has been "distilled" down from the teachings of others. Some of the "borrowed" teaching has been known and debated for some time prior to TWI appearing. So not all the teaching should be disregarded "out of hand". This is my opinion. I should add that the interpretation and application of scriptures by TWI is, in many cases, very poor, and in some cases absolutely disastrous.
However, as you rightly point out, The Way Tree analogy has no scriptural foundation.
There was a class called "The Way Tree" which I know was running up to at least 1978. No disrespect to the teacher of the class, but the teaching in the class is totally wrong and against the scriptures. I don't think the class is taught anymore, but as far as I know, there has been no apology made by either the Way or the teacher of the class for the teaching it contains.
Yet the Way continues to operate with a "Tree" structure that is totally anti-scriptural in its structure.
If you doubt this, why not bring the topic up with your coordinator and "watch them squirm".
This in no way detracts from the integrity of the scriptures or from the deliverance and healing power in the name of Jesus Christ.
Edawn - may God give you the stength to continue with your quest.
Pete
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justloafing
The only truth about twi and its' structure being a tree..................It is dying from the roots up
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skipC
Patty Faye and Stephen are of little interest to anyone much in this area. I feel safe in saying that there are only about 50 people in TWI. Cleveland, TN is a whopping 0 now to Bristol Tenn who at last numbered were the members of a family of about 7. Knoxville pratices the Mark and Avoid to those who have left and gossip about their followers who are within their little cult. Maybe 35 locally at tops. I do know that Nashville dropped considerably to a very miminal total.
Fellowships are mostly family members within their own home with a stragler or two from 20-30 miles away who want to remain with the group. There are more children in the group than adults in this area.
I did notice children being very controled and distant from both adults and other children. It is possible that these adults are beginning to realize just what could happen to their children if they are let out of their sight by other members still brain sinking the teaching. After all, age makes no difference. Scary.
Don't expect any information to be given to you by any innie until you are accepted by the Coordinators and invited to a meeting. The real blows of teachings come after the classes and each one gives a little more cult teachings thrown in for the brain to concieve. You will be a babe until all the classes are over then you will be confronted and yes--spit at like the slivering tongue of a rattle snake.
Little advice: Stand still and when you get the right opportunity grab it by it's neck and stomp it's head off!
Good Luck on your endeavors
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skipC
In a movie, I saw a tree molest a woman. This was a scary movie too just like TWI!
That sort of reminded me of the TWI tree
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edawn
SkipC,
I notice that you are a newbie like myself and seem to have knowledge of Tennessee.
Perhaps you, or anyone else, may have heard of a follower of TWI by the name of Maguerite. If so, please have her PM.
She has valuable information that could result in freeing someone from the control of TWI.
Thanks to everyone for all of your help!
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dmiller
Good advice.
Edawn -- don't be expecting twi innies to be giving out info that would *cut their throats*.
It won't happen.
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