Some answers never do

[YIdon'tgotochurch]

I'd like to give my personal "attaboys" to the ones who responded to "Noni1974" (heretofore refered to as "Noni"). Noni posed the question in the topic about "Born Again" and it appeared to be an honest question.

What I read on that thread was spectacularly out there. If the intent was to get someone confused and frustrated, it probably worked. As I recall, only one person referred to Romans 10:9. Another provided synonyms and another definitions. But no one gave Noni the instruction on "how" to get born again

Sidestepping the answer with symantics (is it really born again? or born from above? or....) is far from an earnest desire to help someone.

I chose not to participate in the discussion because there was just to much to address. I decided to do it on another thread.

Cynic: I expect you have the honor of having the longest thread in the cafe. After reading the post, that's probably the worse answer to the question I've ever heard or read. Good Gravy! ! ! You finally gave her the verse while responding to a few that had poked fun at you. Even that was a casual reference to Romans 10:9.

Belle: I've always enjoyed your post. I was surprised with your questions about speaking in tongues. In the 25 years I was in, I never heard a teaching that it was required to SIT in oder to be born again. Rather, the opposite. It's impossible to speak in tongues if you aren't born again. Later even that changed. At the point that you wrote that, Noni still had no answer.

johniamthat was agreeing with what VPW had said about being "saved = born again = received holy spirit as evidenced by speaking in tongues".

SIT was the "evidence"...not the requirement.

I'll probably get a load of emails with daggers attached to the files. But, I figured I've been wounded in here before. My observations are just as valueless or valuable as anyone elses.

When I surf through radio stations and pick up a guy claiming to teach the Bible, I listen for about 2 or 3 minutes before I start screaming at the dashboard. These guys are so lost and out of touch with what the Bible says....it boggles the imagination. Muchless use the Bible to teach anyone how to get born again. They're stuck in the Gospels as doctrine and as a result mishandle the rest of the Bible. John 3:ff is not instruction on how to get born again....it's an invitation! ! ! !! ! ! !

Gee. I hope I didn't just sound like a Wayfer. :unsure:

For those of you who want to get into an shouting match by way of email... I'll apologize later if I offended you.

:unsure:

[Abigail]

Y, perhaps the reason no one gave instructions on "how to" is because Noni didn't ask "how to". She asked what it meant, that is all. My strong suspcion, having conversed with Noni, is that she hasn't come to the cafe to be "saved" and isn't looking for any of us to "teach her Da Verd". She is simply trying to understand the similarities and differences between what she was taught and what we were taught.

[excathedra]

What I read on that thread was spectacularly out there

well haven't read it yet

and this is as far as i got with yours

[WordWolf]

[WordWolf in boldface and brackets.]

I'd like to give my personal "attaboys" to the ones who responded to "Noni1974" (heretofore refered to as "Noni"). Noni posed the question in the topic about "Born Again" and it appeared to be an honest question.

[You're welcome.]

What I read on that thread was spectacularly out there. If the intent was to get someone confused and frustrated, it probably worked. As I recall, only one person referred to Romans 10:9. Another provided synonyms and another definitions. But no one gave Noni the instruction on "how" to get born again

[Here's what she said.

I've gotten the feeling that TWI was a Born Again Christian off shoot.Could someone please explain what Born Again really means.As a JW we were never really told what it meant just that Born Agains are into things like speaking in tounges.I don't eaxctly know what that really is either.I've never seen it for myself and I don't know anybody who does it.I don't really know anyone who would say they were Born Again either so if you have a website or something I would very much like to know for myself what it means.

JW's have a dislike for Born Agains and I have no real clue as to why.I personally don't have the same dislike because when I left the JW's I left all that type of thinking behind.I hate being ignorant of something so I feel like I should hear it from those who practice it.

Nothing about "how would I get born again."

She asked what it meant. She asked for a website.

I provided a link and posted the contents.

Then I answered that link based on what twi said what born again WAS.

I call that "sticking to the question I was asked."

If I'd felt like it, I probably could have editorialized and explained why

my position is the only correct one, but if she wanted to know about that,

she would have asked.]

Sidestepping the answer with symantics (is it really born again? or born from above? or....) is far from an earnest desire to help someone.

[Actually, sidestepping the answer to the question SHE ASKED by saying

HOW to get born again without even explaining what it was would have

expressed "an earnest desire to help someone",

and demonstrated the poster is an arrogant little berk who can't address

the actual question-but only can go into the canned responses.

Up to you which actually HELPS someone, but I call it at

"being a poor witness".]

I chose not to participate in the discussion because there was just to much to address. I decided to do it on another thread.

[Call it what you will, but this IS participating in the discussion.

It's editorializing on it on a separate thread.

This is bad form because the discussion was in one place, and you chose to comment

apart from it-which means that you get to frame everyone's posts in the light YOU want,

and you didn't link to them for reference, as if you didn't want people to make up

their OWN minds. Instead of being "above the fray", your message-intended

or not-was "See how above the fray I am!" I shall now pronounce judgement on those

who answered her!" ]

Cynic: I expect you have the honor of having the longest thread in the cafe. After reading the post, that's probably the worse answer to the question I've ever heard or read. Good Gravy! ! ! You finally gave her the verse while responding to a few that had poked fun at you. Even that was a casual reference to Romans 10:9.

[by not actually going in and making your OWN attempt at answering,

you did no better. How about rolling up your sleeves and showing the rubes

how it's done?]

Belle: I've always enjoyed your post. I was surprised with your questions about speaking in tongues. In the 25 years I was in, I never heard a teaching that it was required to SIT in oder to be born again. Rather, the opposite. It's impossible to speak in tongues if you aren't born again. Later even that changed. At the point that you wrote that, Noni still had no answer.

[And yet, in practice, in many places it was done, especially in the 90s. It's amazing how

many people will accept that practice was different in different places and different times-

UP TO A POINT.

From then on, anything that happened elsewhere was a hallucination of the participants.]

johniamthat was agreeing with what VPW had said about being "saved = born again = received holy spirit as evidenced by speaking in tongues".

SIT was the "evidence"...not the requirement.

I'll probably get a load of emails with daggers attached to the files. But, I figured I've been wounded in here before.

[Woe betide me for having an unpopular opinion....fetch me my sackcloth and ashes...]

My observations are just as valueless or valuable as anyone elses.

When I surf through radio stations and pick up a guy claiming to teach the Bible, I listen for about 2 or 3 minutes before I start screaming at the dashboard. These guys are so lost and out of touch with what the Bible says....it boggles the imagination. Muchless use the Bible to teach anyone how to get born again. They're stuck in the Gospels as doctrine and as a result mishandle the rest of the Bible. John 3:ff is not instruction on how to get born again....it's an invitation! ! ! !! ! ! !

Gee. I hope I didn't just sound like a Wayfer. :unsure:

[No, but it was completely irrelevant to the discussion....]

For those of you who want to get into an shouting match by way of email... I'll apologize later if I offended you.

:unsure:

[Me, I prefer to handle communications all in public. That way, there's no questions

later on "he said/she said." I learned that from twi- some people use their non-published

communications as an excuse to pretend they didnt happen.]

Y, perhaps the reason no one gave instructions on "how to" is because Noni didn't ask "how to". She asked what it meant, that is all. My strong suspcion, having conversed with Noni, is that she hasn't come to the cafe to be "saved" and isn't looking for any of us to "teach her Da Verd". She is simply trying to understand the similarities and differences between what she was taught and what we were taught.

Me,

I thought it was obvious that's what and why.

Edited August 14, 2006 by WordWolf

[Belle]

Y, take a deep breath. :) It's what we do here - discuss things. We have very different experiences and very different views of even the same experiences. THREE perspectives, if you will... Mine, yours and what really happened.

SIT being required to prove one is born again has been discussed here many times. I'll gladly do a search to find the threads for you, if you're genuinely interested.

As far as daggers. I try to avoid throwing them, and, if I do, it's in public on the boards. I choose to keep everything public like WW does. PMs are for helping people who don't want to be exposed on the boards or when I want to discuss something further using names, examples, etc. that are not appropriate or safe to share publicly for the WAYGB to see and/or cause more work for moderators.

But, no daggers to throw here. You are entitled to your opinion as I am to mine. And, hopefully we can discuss the differences with civility or agree to disagree on a topic, yet still respect one another.

[rascal]

Dunno seems to me.....that the only *dagger throwing* being done around here is by the accuser.

I suppose that it really can be annoying when all of the other posters don`t respond as one feels personally they should.

Kind of reminds me of that picture of the snooty looking dog with the caption...

*Those of you that think you know every thing, are REALLY annoying to those of us who really DO!*

Edited August 14, 2006 by rascal

[Tom Strange]

What's an "arrogant little berk"? ...I hate it when I have to look up stuff!

Y: if you're perfectly happy and believe your version of "The Truth" is best more power to you.

And you can agree with Johniam on things as often as you like, that's okay, but that's not what is gonna get daggers coming your way (if any).

Take heart... you didn't 'sound' like a wayfer, just acted like one!

(was that 'spectacularly' enough?)

[Belle]

Tom, if you'll look up "berk", I'll look up "rubes" and we can both "share what we learned."

I don't think it has anything to do with the definition I found on www.urbandictionary.com, so I'll keep looking. :P

Edited August 14, 2006 by Belle

[Tom Strange]

Belle, I know "rubes" (plural of 'rube')... it's the person being taken advantage of in a scam, syn would probably be simpleton, dolt, yahoo, etc.

OK... here's what wikipedia.org says: "Rube is short for Reubens. Reubens is a word that first appears in "Tramping with Tramps" by J. Flynt in 1899 to describe farmers or rural people from Iowa. Over the years the word has taken on a connotation of one who is easily duped, a sucker."

And among other things (that we can't say here) a berk is British slang for "a fool"...

I'm sure that's what WW meant...

(I'll have to remember that word)

[WordWolf]

Belle, I know "rubes" (plural of 'rube')... it's the person being taken advantage of in a scam, syn would probably be simpleton, dolt, yahoo, etc.

OK... here's what wikipedia.org says: "Rube is short for Reubens. Reubens is a word that first appears in "Tramping with Tramps" by J. Flynt in 1899 to describe farmers or rural people from Iowa. Over the years the word has taken on a connotation of one who is easily duped, a sucker."

And among other things (that we can't say here) a berk is British slang for "a fool"...

I'm sure that's what WW meant...

(I'll have to remember that word)

Correct on 'rube.'

As for 'berk, the HP Lexicon says

"berk

Idiot, objectionable person. The word is actually derived from a very crude and offensive bit of rhyming slang, but in this form is considered to be inoffensive.

"If we were sometimes arrogant little berks, you mean," said Sirius.

(HP and the OotP, chapter 29.)

He was describing the attitude demonstrated in the chapter "Snape's Worst Memory",

which was an example of the Marauders "strutting about the school", as Snape put it,

as if they owned it.

I occasionally pick up little phrases from things I read, hear or see.

I think everyone does-but I'm a bit more obvious about it.

Edited August 14, 2006 by WordWolf

[Oakspear]

If the intent was to get someone confused and frustrated, it probably worked.

You may have noted that not everybody agrees here. Even among those who believe in the inerrancy of the bible, there is strong disagreement.

[YIdon'tgotochurch]

If anyone is looking for me, I'll be back later. I'm down at Dr. Becker's getting my foot removed from my mouth. When I get back, WordWolf and Belle are going to watch me eat my humble pie.

Ok. You are all correct, I'm wrong, I'm sorry.

Now you know why I don't go to church.

[Tom Strange]

Come on back and have some pie if you've still got an appetite! You seem to have a unique talent!

[WordWolf]

Hey, it's ok.

All the regular posters have posted stuff they later regretted.

Nobody's got a perfect batting average.

And so on.

Pull up a chair. Have some spring water.

[Sushi]

Hey, Y, you would faint if you saw my bills for oral Tinactin.

[oilfieldmedic]

Gosh Sush...you eat that stuff?

The medic Shivers

[T-Bone]

I don't mean to brag - but I think I've become proficient at putting my foot in my mouth. I thought that's what TWI meant by walking the talk. :)

[Belle]

Please tell Dr. Becker that I'll be in soon to pay my bill. I'm afraid we've gotten to be very well acquainted, Dr. Becker and I.

But, as I always say, "Better to have my foot in my mouth than....."