Heck, before LCM left, we had 3 fellowships a week, a HFC meeting every other week, and a branch meeting once a month.. Let's add that up..
Twig mtgs - 3 x 4 = 12
HFC meeting - 2 = 2
Branch mtg = 1
That 15 meetings a month.. And a month consists of how many days? 30? Half my timei n meetings. At least once in awhile one of those twig nights would be witness night, which really meant, let's go have fun together but in case someone asks, you can tell them who you're with and invite em to twig..
What Vision and Direction really did was to change the Way from allowing people to do what they thought was best, to micro-managed everything. Limb coordinators were now required to have x amount of new people (OR ELSE), they were required to show an increase in ABS to a certain % (OR ELSE). And so, here was the magnificently "man designed" plan to accomplish it. Controls, controls, controls.. All because they love you, was the reason given.. Can you believe the nerve.. Instead of God giving the increase, it was written black and white in the Vision and Direction given to Corps on the field overseeing limbs and above that they had to show proof of increase.. And with that weight on their shoulders, just think the weight they had to put on their "servants"..
Man driving man to extinction.. That's what it is..
instead it should be..
God! And His Son leading the church, rather than man leading it.. God giving the increase instead of man trying to 5-senses wise show "untrue" fruit. Genuinly allowing God to change the hearts of people, instead of trying to beat people over the head with the WOrd, or tricking them to come to fellowship just to show you got someone to come, instead of genuine love and care to help and SERVE THEM! Go figure.. We are here to serve one another, not be served..
Oh, Pipes, oh the wellspring of emotions that letter raises in me. :(
Ya know, my ex and I tried for two years - TWO YEARS - to step down as mere assistant coordinators because of the toll it was taking on our marriage and time. Being a police officer, my ex worked 12 hours shifts, every other week being at least a 60 hour work week, but that 60 hour work week was more like 80 hours when you add in mandatory attendance at court, flight officer duties, SWAT team training, paperwork, the hours a DUI arrest requires, personal firing range time, etc., etc., etc.
But we didn't fight it, hard enough. We mainly wanted out of the responsibility because we felt inadequate since we couldn't keep up with the demands. He felt like a failure as a husband AND as a HFC asst. because we couldn't see that it wasn't US it was TWI and the demands they made on us and our time.
We made phone calls to Moynihan about this. Made calls to our HFC. Had meetings with our HFC. Talked to our various and sundry BCs...... ALL OF THEM LAID THE BLAME AT OUR FEET - Mostly at my poor ex's feet. All the pressure put on husbands was already unrealisticly immense, imo, but now they said that we just weren't managing our time well enough... My ex lived on almost 4 hours of sleep a night for most of the time of our married life because he felt obligated (afraid of not) spending at least an hour "in the Word" in addition to everything else. (A tired, frustrated police officer is not good for anyone caught for a traffic violation )
Anyone who knows my ex knows what a great big heart he has for people and how obedient he is, especially if he thinks God wants or expects him to do something. Nobody, but nobody deserves to have that kind of pressure put on them, but especially not people like my ex who would drive themselves to the grave doing whatever they were told was expected of them.
It totally ....es me off to think of the burdens they put on us and the guilt they laid at our feet for not living up to the unrealistic expectations and demands they put on us!!
I better stop before I blow a gasket thinking back on those times...
I'm very interested in finding out what the "oversight" you mention consisted of. I remember feeling dogged, between my ex-husband talking about me behind my back with the hfc and their personal oversight through 2003. I couldn't imagine them having the time to personally oversee almost every aspect of the lives of every person in the fellowship, but I keep hearing things that make me believe that was in fact what they were directed to do, and I wasn't getting as much personal attention as I thought I was. what exactly was expected of hfc in their "oversight" of the regular folks?
I remember being required to be at fellowship 3x/week, as directed by LCM. it was not optional. no time off for illness, either. my baby was sick and I had to take him and sit in the hall while he cried so I wouldn't distract everyone from "receiving the Word".
the detailed oversight persisted for a long time.... prior to LCM falling from grace there were weekly reports, no outsider friends, I even got confronted for trying to get pregnant when we were in debt and being told I had no business trying to have a baby. afterward LCM, it lightened up some and one of the families was allowed to take in her unbelieving mother instead of putting her in a home, but there was a lot of grumbling from the hfc about her decision, and about other people... he did a lot of criticizing of people's decisions behind their backs to everyone in the group and actively worked to convince people not to make their own decisions. I think he badmouthed people to make everyone suspicious of each other so no one trusted each other.... another method of control.
Glad to meet you T & O. I remember those years..and for us the worst year was 1998. Don't know if that was the case for other folks. And we weren't even hfc's that year, only assistants. We almost left that year...but alas.....we stuck around.
We moved late that year and leadership in the new area wasn't as heavy handed, even though we were hfcs. Seems much depended(s) on local leadership. Then we got new local leadership, still not as heavy handed as the lcm days....but there was more an air of control.
Belle...the tried to step down...tell me about it. I decided I wasn't coordinating anymore in the fall of 2002. Hubby said that was fine, that I didn't have to. I called the BC and was told I couldn't do that. For once I stood up for myself, ended up in tears, and raising my voice (not my standard mo...raising my voice). The BC shut up at that point. Hubby gave his notice a month or so later.....but kept at it for another dang 6 months because no one was "qualified" (out of debt, ac grad, willing). That 6 months really took a toll on our marriage. I was the good wife and played the role, but never attended another leadership meeting. My doctor had told me to quit going to the leadership meetings. Every time I went to one it took me 4 days to recoup; I'd be beating myself up for not being able to live up to the standard.
Potato, glad to meet you too. I don't recall the specifics of the oversight in the V & D. I remember a stapled hand out with all the info...and that we were to spend time with each grad. It seems we were to be helping them with witnessing, time management, and maybe finances? T & O may have a better recollection of that than me. I can check with my hubby later to see what he remembers.
Anyway,this letter reminded me that the lighter demands after lcm were still not light. I don't know/recall how long the V & D oversight persisted.
I don't have my files readily available.. I think if I look I might be able to find the Vision and Direction given out to the Region and Limb Coordinators.. Maybe If I feel like it someday, I'll scan it and put a copy on the web for all those wanting to see how ungodly their direction really is.. Unless of course someone from the Way would like to tell me how God directed them to require a 3% or maybe it was 5% increase in numbers... Sounds more like manmade desires to me..
The thing with all this is that it's all ran from man.. Err woman, hehe.. And most even from the Limb level and down are nothing more than go to people.. I have known a good deal of Branch, Limb, and even a Region coordinator that are good honest folk that realize there are some major problems with doctrine, with direction, with quite a number of things, and yet they feel like it is their duty to stay and try and change things from within. Man, the number of talks I've had with leadership that really are meek that are there now. But they fail at the point that they think they OWE the ministry.. They OWE them.. Umm.. What happened to "OWE NO MAN ANYTHING"!?!?!!?! Yeah, they think they owe the ministry - or maybe they think they owe God but since the ministry is their God - there ya go.. So they put up with the demands that their leadership puts on them. And the whole while it's people like Rosalie, Harve Platig, Rico Magnelli, and John Linder that run basically the entire show.. Yeah, I think those are the top 4 if I remember.. Don't let the other titles and positions fool you.. Those ARE the decision makers. Some are just "hidden" decision makers - most notably John Linder. As for Jean Ives... Yeah, just a fall back person like Reynolds was. John Rupp just wants power and position, so he'll do whatever. But they don't make the main decisions.. I've been in meetings with just the Trustee Cabinet, and it's pretty clear whose trying to change things and who runs it all.. Rosalie allows even Donna Martindale to make police changes on her own. They basically kiss her behind because she was LCM's wife!
The point is.. There really are a lot of wonderful and kind leaders in the Way. THis is what attracts people even now. But unfortunately their "head" is not Jesus Christ! Instead they have willing changed it for a man-made headship.. "and the head of man is Christ" get's changed to "and the head of man is his religious man-ordained leader!". Christ LIVES! He leads too. But that won't happen in the Way..
Rosalie basically was ran by fear but now a desire for power. She changed things from the fear motivation that LCM brought to a manmade "love" motivation. What do you expect from women! Only it's not genuine. Instead it's "whatever will make them happy and keep them from leaving.. lets do that'... And you think I'm kidding?! No.. I've been in meetings where top leadership (I don't mean Limb or Branch low level folks) was being reproved for not handling situations with their folks right because they made their "servants" complain too much and was giving the ministry a bad rap. So, what does Rosalie decide.. Why don't you just stop confronting for a month or two and let the situation die down.. Just hang out with them but don't confront anything.. Show them your their friend.. This is her "actual words!". Ummm.. You guys see what is going on right? That's not GOD"S LOVE! That's Man made, we'll kiss your behind if you make too much stink about us (As long as you have reason to raise such a stink)... Instead of changing policy and actually listening and changing to God's ways, they'd much rather look good, be nice, show fake love, and hope you'll stay, and then if you still aren't nice, then you were a bad apple and need marked and there was no wrongdoing on leadership..
Those who just do what they ask though, well, their the few, the proud, the great we got em were we want them so now let's make them do more! You know the type..
BUt I'd say 25% of leadership their now, judging by the fact the I know at least 10% personally and have talked to them, but these are just those who are waiting for change to happen and think they can change it from inside out.. I gave up after trying to talk with Harve and Rosalie.. They both showed how not meek they were and their desire was just to run the freakin ministry and keep it afloat, rather than keep it godly. Hush and be friends with the troublemakers (unless they are too quarrelsome) and the quiet ones make do all the work (until they catch on and leave, but meanwhile their genuine love fools the newbies)..
Then you have 50% of leadership that just want to move up and be powerful and have position.. So they do whatever is told to them.. Or they tell others or do whatever they think their leaders want to hear so they look good. And all the while enjoying the power they have over everyone.. Or if they are low on the pole, they prance around with their ego and tell you how great they are by the success they had - usally at the expense of everyone else..
And then the last 25% of leaders there are just quiet, do whatever, unknowing what's going on.. That's a big percentage.. Trust me.. It doesn't mean there's much hope.. BUt.. There's a good deal of em.. Alot of them don't want to know either.. They are too fooled.
Thanks for all the insight, T&O! :) Go on like that anytime you feel like. Some things just trigger loads of thoughts to come rushing to our heads. It's good for us to get it out when that happens and here at the cafe there's usually someone reading who really needed to see what was written.
I have a real hard time understanding and having any sort of sympathy for folks like the Moynihans who have been around since way back when and not only knew about vee pee and craiggers illegal, immoral and lethal behavior, but also covered for it and still do. IMO they are worse than those men because they knew and didn't do a d@mn thing to stop it.
Do you think the folks at HQ can see through the facade? Do you think new staffers are able to figure it out and see them for the whited sepulchres they are?
Hehe.. Yeah there's so much that upsets me about them, that I could go one for days. But then, I wouldn't get any work done, and what good would it do anyways! Hopefully it helps people, but I don't want people to get the wrong idea and just be angry all their life. I'm not angry at them.. Heck, they did what they thought was right in their man-made and ran world. Rather than trusting God, they decided to trust in themselves. The worst that happens is people leave and now have a pure disgust for anything godly. But that ain't it. God's alive and still there for those who call on him. His Son is still leading the "true" church of which has no ministerial/denominational marks. I just want to help people make the right decision. Every denomination and Christian group is ran by man. Doesn't make them evil in a sense, just means that they have changed from serving God to serving man at the top and the rest follow unknowingly. And the Way is just one of many that has "offended" many children of God.. "Woe unto them" Jesus said..
Christ before his death prayed that we might be one, just as He and The Father were one.. (Now however you view that oneness is up to you, I tend to view it the more biblical view of Husband and wife). Instead of being one, instead of each one serving one another, instead of each one submitting to one another, you have the wolves that try and be "head" over Christ's church. It's HIS, not Ours.. It's His bride to be, not ours. And God never made us to be Lords over it.. Overseers, sure.. Episkopos.. It's a function not a position. Watching over one another with a desire to help and guide and feed. Not a Lording of I'm in charge, take the headship from Christ and now I'm him sort of thing. I just pray people wake up when they leave and realize, God is a God of love. Genuine love. The love which gives, as the greatest example is Him giving His son to die for us. That love. That giving. That's genuine. Not I'm a trustee (or director now). I sit at the head table and should be waited on hand and foot. I tell you what to do sort of thing. I'm in charge. I'm God! (Not said, but certainly lorded over others)..
What goes on at HQ? The 4 chiefs I mentioned play God.. And quietly convene behind the scenes on how to keep the ministry afloat. And the staff.. Most are not happy there. That's 75%.. You wonder how it can stay afloat with such a large percentage unhappy.. But the majority of these are the two 25% groups I mentioned. Either know somethings up, or just don't want to know, but either way hope things change for the better. A good amount of staffers see through the facade because of their closeness. Only, most that are there are there for reasons they couldn't survive elsewhere. So it's like a cat dependant on it's master to feed him. And scared to go out into the big world and realize the one feeding him isn't really all that kind. And they get told things like, "Your taking the easy way out if you leave".. No.. That's a lie.. It's easy to stay and be fed and just take the abuse. It is tough to leave when you're hand fed to stay. So you'll put up with the evil. Granted the scenes have changed. Men leadership don't force other's to have sex. Instead it's all seduction now.. At HQ and Gunnison, the women outnumber the men. Most women Corps know they will be single, so they seduce away. Men willingly play the part enjoying what they get. (Granted there are many good guys, honest, GOd loving folks - BUT THEY ARE QUIET!).. But sex is still rampant at the root locales. And a good part of that is women with women.. Doesn't that make you feel good. That's what happens when you have #1 being a women and #2 (Donna) being a woman and they run the show with the corrupt men who love the power given to them [aka Rupp, Magnelli, and Linder] giving their input and guiding the ministry along as well, while the rest just follow. Knowing there are problems, and hoping for change, and feeling like they owe the ministry, all the while scared to leave beause the know it's a lie that it's easier to leave, cause it ain't easy..
NEWS FLASH... It's easier when you trust God! Because He will make a way...
Case and point.. I left.. The day I left I was full time with the ministry as Way Corps.. I believed God. Moved away from where I was stationed to get as far from being pulled back so I could have some time between me and GOd. Not knowing housing or job or anything. But I prayed, believed.. And wouldn't you know it. The day I left , someone was trying to reach me to ask if I wanted a job (And they didn't even know I was leaving, and I had told them YEARS before i would never be working secular again). But it so happens there was the opening. Only I didn't know till 2 weeks later when I just happened to stop by this ol' friends place of business and he mentioned they tried calling me that day.. I'm like.. Umm.. Ok. I had left that very day and God was preparing the way! Housing came the day after I arrived.. Trust God.. Those who are in there right now, and he'll make the way.. You can't change Rosalie. You can't change the Way. You don't owe them anything. You owe God your life, but it doesn't help for you to be "chained" to a ministry that isn't serving God, because the god of this world is just using your time and energy to serve him by it. Chain yourself to God, not man, or man formed groups/denominations.. He leads. Christ is the head of "EVERY MAN" the Scriptures say.. So why are you allowing another head? WHy are you allowing another God? God is the head of Christ, Christ is the head of man, man is the head of his wife.. There is no other godly structure.. That is how it is, adding to it to add your leadership in the headship is wrong! Get out and get with GOd and let Him lead..
Ok.. There I go on another rampade... Sorry..
Moynihan.. Yeah... He knew everything. He is of the 50% that just enjoys his position and power and prestige, so he goes along with it all.. He's not corrupt so to say, but lazy and bought out.. When I say corrupt, he doesn't devise plans and traps, he just implements the traps his leaders tell him because he'd loose his prestige and power.
What happened to being watchmen... Folks, I'm blowing the horn! I blew it when I was there. So their blood is not on me.. But people who are bought by the way and given power and enjoy it, they will not blow. The fear will always encase them..
Ok.. I'm going to eat lunch before it gets too late.
What goes on at HQ? The 4 chiefs I mentioned play God.. And quietly convene behind the scenes on how to keep the ministry afloat. And the staff.. Most are not happy there. That's 75%.. You wonder how it can stay afloat with such a large percentage unhappy.. But the majority of these are the two 25% groups I mentioned. Either know somethings up, or just don't want to know, but either way hope things change for the better. A good amount of staffers see through the facade because of their closeness. Only, most that are there are there for reasons they couldn't survive elsewhere. So it's like a cat dependant on it's master to feed him. And scared to go out into the big world and realize the one feeding him isn't really all that kind. And they get told things like, "Your taking the easy way out if you leave".. No.. That's a lie.. It's easy to stay and be fed and just take the abuse. It is tough to leave when you're hand fed to stay. So you'll put up with the evil. Granted the scenes have changed. Men leadership don't force other's to have sex. Instead it's all seduction now.. At HQ and Gunnison, the women outnumber the men. Most women Corps know they will be single, so they seduce away. Men willingly play the part enjoying what they get. (Granted there are many good guys, honest, GOd loving folks - BUT THEY ARE QUIET!).. But sex is still rampant at the root locales. And a good part of that is women with women.. Doesn't that make you feel good. That's what happens when you have #1 being a women and #2 (Donna) being a woman and they run the show with the corrupt men who love the power given to them [aka Rupp, Magnelli, and Linder] giving their input and guiding the ministry along as well, while the rest just follow. Knowing there are problems, and hoping for change, and feeling like they owe the ministry, all the while scared to leave beause the know it's a lie that it's easier to leave, cause it ain't easy..
Sex is still rampant at the root locales...did it ever stop??? LOLOL!!! I spent 5 years at HQ, and I know what happened in Founders Hall, seeing who was leaving who's room at odd hours of the night. I saw a few questionable things with lcm wondering why he was doing what he was doing or why a girl was acting like she had a crush on him. Makes you go hmmmmmm.....
There are many women who are so desperate to be loved and want to get married but can't pursue it because there are no men in TWI for them. The ones that are there are either undesirable in a major way or they are having too much fun farking so many women at once. I saw men doing that big time at HQ.
Welcome T & O, You don't mind me(us) calling you that right?
We just left 1 year and 5 months ago, 6 days and 20 hours ago!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
I still have many staff friends and Corps family. The ''illogic'' about staying is incredible. It's exactly what you said. They don't think they could ''survive'' in the real world anymore. So they'll eat it.
They also really, truly believe that things will get better.
One relative thinks she "owes it to THE MINISTRY" for 'saving' her from a life of drugs and recklessness.
Ummmmmmm do they not read their bible? God is a God of individuals too. He can work with any humble heart. It wasn't the man that saved her, it was the Lord's direction using his feet and hands! She owes it to God only. But, when I say that, it's the ''of course it's God silly.....".....whatever.
Drives me nuts.
We are so blessed and happier than we have ever been in our whole ministry life.........15 -30yrs.
We make it a big point to respect man, allow God to use them the way He wants, but in no way, (no pun) are we gonna follow a man again. Freeing thought.
Your post on this thread should be required reading of everyone here who's forgotten what it was like! Thanks for your straight talking and honest remarks. Thanks for calling a spade by it's proper name...and for your refreshing style.
I hope you'll be with us a long time - and I also hope you enjoy your stay here.
krysilis, I'll take a donut if you got one.. Strawberry filled! Yum!
Yeah, it's really scary to think of all the sex stuff that goes on to this day.. I'll be honest though, I really never knew there was a problem. Didn't have a clue! The only time I knew of a problem was the Rock that was mentioned concerning the kids and their rampant sexuality in the 90s.. Maybe 94?! But leadership?!
Didn't know till I prayed to God that LCM would be removed from being able to teach the ministry. That was what I asked for, that's what I got. Y'all may not believe me and maybe some say coincidence, but this is what happened.. I was in-residence training.. Martindale was teaching some strange doctrines during Corps morning that was just for the in-residence and it didn't line up at all. And after going to my leadership I found out that they didn't care, cause whatever he said, they believed. My Corps brothers and sisters all went along with it too. And I'm just like this has got to stop! So.. The next corps morning. They start with announcements, and here I am just thinking how screwed up things are with his teaching, so.. I ask God. I said, 'God, he's teaching unbiblical things every time he teaches us.. Please stop him!'. And wouldn't you know, the next accouncement came, LCM would not be teaching the in-residence separately any more.. Wow! I'm like.. Was that you God?! oK.. So now we only had every other week the normal Corps Morning. And same thing.. Within a month I start to see weird teachings crop in that.. So there ya go, I start praying again that morning, "Please stop him!".. And wouldn't ya know, that morning, it was announced, He will no longer be teaching the Corps due to his schedule, instead others would fill in.. Hmmm. Ok... This prayer thing works! Hehe.. (Truly I believed long before this..).. About a month later goes on and well, the lies start coming into the Sunday Teaching services LCM was teaching.. Well. You guys can just guess what I did.. Only this time, a few weeks to a month went by and it was announced, LCM will no longer be teaching the Sunday Teaching Services either.. Gee.. really? Hmm.. This was around December of what 1999?! And about 4 months later in April, we all know what came out.. Yeah, that was the first I ever knew of sex problems and his adultry.. Course after that, came all the fallout, the attempted coverups, and what have you.. Well.. I was just glad he wasn't teaching wrong doctrine and hoped Rosalie could change it.. Boy was I in for a surprise..
Things changed quickly though from the fear to the love.. But it was clear it was all man made cover.. And nothing was genuine.. I waited .. waited.. tried to discuss it, bring things up, but everything was knocked down.. And now years later, there's still no change. And people are still waiting.. Only, for most on the field, that wasn't at a root locale, you'd never really see much of the treachery and corruption.. Honestly, the home fellowship was a kind place if you had a good honest coordinator.. (Albeit, I think there are many issues that make the twigs/fellowships pointless). Most of the weird doctrines never make it out of the Corps household. Although you can be assured they swim around their brains, those who leave them wide open that is for whatever the Way teaches.. Bereans! RIghtly dividing and studying, right? Umm. Yeah sure.. Only that's great and all. Studying that is.. Knowing the scriptures and all.. BUt honestly, does it make a hill of beans if you don't have that relationship with your head? And I don't mean some ministry leadership that tries to be your head. I mean Jesus, YOUR LORD! And if you ain't got a relationship with God, what good is all that head knowledge? Gee, so 4 were crucified with Christ. And that will help when I talk to my Heavenly Father? What I pray to him, Oh yeah.. GOd, since I know that 4 were crucified, your going to listen to me, right? Gee.. Thanks!
Don't get me wrong, wrong doctrine does effect us.. It's important to know the truth.. But well, y'all know.. God comes first.. And that's the problem in the Way.. EVeryone left there thinks everything they do their is putting God first.. Yup.. If I read my Bible, I'm putting God first. If I listen to the STS, I'm putting God first. I go to the Way Mag, I'm putting God first. If I clean the toilets for a class, I'm putting God first.. And anything done for the ministry is done for God, so I owe my life to the ministry, err I mean God! Good thing is that God looks at our hearts.. All those things we did unknowglingly, God knew if we were doing it for Him, and will reward us accordingly.. And those who screw lives up there day in and day out because of their fear to lose position or lose members or because their quest for power, well, God knows.. Vengance is His..
AND HE SHALL REPAY!
Hey.. But if there are donuts available.. Maybe I should stuff my mouth rather than going on and on...
Yeppers! God is good, ain't he? I'm glad He answers prayers! I'm glad you were able to see them answered, too. :) I know it doesn't always work out the way we want it to or when we want it to, but God does look on the heart and he does want what's best for us, even when we can't see it that way.
I prayed forever for my ex to see TWI for what it is.
I wanted us to get out together;
for him to reconcile with his family whom he totally cut out of our lives at Moynihan's "suggestion";
for him to loosen up and give himself credit for how wonderful he is;
for him to trust himself and recognize that God works in HIM and through HIM to take care of HIM - not through those kool-aid drinking TWIts who don't really have his best interest in mind when they tell him/us what to do.
I wanted us to have the family I always dreamed about and that he said he did too when we were dating and engaged. :(
Anyway, he did reconcile with his family after our divorce. I still hope the other personal prayers for him come to pass, and I still hope to have that family I always dreamed about but know it will not be with him. But just in case God sees things differently, I'm practicing to be that eccentric old lady who goes to her grave single with no children....you know, the one the kids think is the coolest because she's so "different".
I was able to talk the cook into making some strawberry filled donuts for you and will get some coffee to go with them. Would you like cream and sugah with that?
Please stop him!'. And wouldn't you know, the next accouncement came, LCM would not be teaching the in-residence separately any more.. Wow! I'm like.. Was that you God?! oK.. So now we only had every other week the normal Corps Morning. And same thing.. Within a month I start to see weird teachings crop in that.. So there ya go, I start praying again that morning, "Please stop him!".. And wouldn't ya know, that morning, it was announced, He will no longer be teaching the Corps due to his schedule, instead others would fill in.. Hmmm. Ok... This prayer thing works! Hehe.. (Truly I believed long before this..).. About a month later goes on and well, the lies start coming into the Sunday Teaching services LCM was teaching.. Well. You guys can just guess what I did.. Only this time, a few weeks to a month went by and it was announced, LCM will no longer be teaching the Sunday Teaching Services either.. Gee.. really? Hmm.. This was around December of what 1999?! And about 4 months later in April, we all know what came out.. Yeah, that was the first I ever knew of sex problems and his adultry.. Course after that, came all the fallout, the attempted coverups, and what have you..
TrustAndObey,
You've probably put the pieces together, but here's a very brief recap:
1) Craig believes vpw's doctrine.....for him to have plenty of sex "to loosen him up spiritually."
2) Craig has scores of women......dayton motels, gunnison, motorcoach, etc.
3) Roalie knew about this as early as 1995.....as she stated in a court deposition.
4) At the 1998 hq adv class....lcm had sex with a married woman who became distraught. This married woman, who husband was back in Gunnison with their kids, told her family corps brother. He went and confronted craig. Immediately, the inresidence corps guy was sent packing and lindxr took him to a bus station. The ex-corps guy made lots of phone calls......lots of upheaval. Dozens were mark/avoid.
5) In Feb 1999, P@ul Allxn found out that his wife had sex with LCM. P@ul confronted lcm that very night as lindxer was in the room with a holstered gun at his side. P@ul demanded for martindale's resignation. Didn't happen. P@ul and his wife, both on hq staff, were fired and were told to pack their bags. Lindxr had orders to make sure they get gone, talk to no one, as soon as possible.
6) P@ul Allxn put together his website........WAYDALE. :)
7) Waydale....from March 1999 onward......puts lots of information out there. Waydale was booming with thousands of posts, loads of documents, insider information.
8) Martindale knew that a lawsuit was coming his way.
9) In March/April of 2000.....the Allen lawsuit against twi, lcm, bot, others
10) April 2000.......Martindale admits to having "an affair." (one, consensual affair)
11) Twi's lawyers convince twi's trustees to get rid of craig......too much liability.
12) September 2000.........lcm secretly heads to Toledo to live with a married couple (and receive counseling and therapy for depression, etc).
Don't get me wrong, wrong doctrine does effect us.. It's important to know the truth.. But well, y'all know.. God comes first.. And that's the problem in the Way.. EVeryone left there thinks everything they do their is putting God first.. Yup.. If I read my Bible, I'm putting God first. If I listen to the STS, I'm putting God first. I go to the Way Mag, I'm putting God first. If I clean the toilets for a class, I'm putting God first.. And anything done for the ministry is done for God, so I owe my life to the ministry, err I mean God! Good thing is that God looks at our hearts.. All those things we did unknowglingly, God knew if we were doing it for Him, and will reward us accordingly.. And those who screw lives up there day in and day out because of their fear to lose position or lose members or because their quest for power, well, God knows.. Vengance is His..
AND HE SHALL REPAY!
Hey.. But if there are donuts available.. Maybe I should stuff my mouth rather than going on and on...
Very well said Trust and Obey!!! We were very mislead in this issue of putting God first. It was talked about constantly, but was it really done???I rekindled my relationship with Him when I left twi. I was really shocked to see how stagnate it had been during my 20 years in twi. I remember before twi, I used to talked to Him all the time. SIT replaced that, and I mindlessly SIT. Where's the relationship in that? Isn't a relationship two-way communication? SIT was overrated in TWI IMHO.:)
SIT did replace a bunch, didn't it? I think if there is anything that differentiates between True Christianity and the religions of this world (including the religious Christianity the world promotes).. It's got to be the relationship we can have with the Creator of this world, which isn't just one WAY! I pray and speak, and well, it doesn't just go into a deep black hole! Hehe.. Course I can't forget that we also have our Lord Jesus who also is with us. As I was reminded this weekend when I went out to go see a live production of the life of our Lord.. "Lo, I am with you always, even unto the end of the world". Was he lying or what?! So... He must be, despite how much the Way tried to lessen our Lord's role. They did that because they wanted to take his role. Chris isn't on this earth to lead the church, instead his ministers and Way leaders take his place.. Good God, what idolatry! Christ is with us, even now! He leads, even now. He's our head, even NOW!
Ok, no more talking...
Belle,
Thanks so much! Yummmm A huge strawberry donut.. Never thought I'd have one will real fruit filling! I'll take a bit of sugar with that their coffee too! Munch munch..
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likeaneagle
that is the end result..plan God out...plan family out, and set forth a system of error...looks like things got busier after I left.
thanks ILB for sharing this.....
I fail to see where familys and individuals realy learned about the real blessings in life.
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TrustAndObey
I don't know about busier being the word..
Heck, before LCM left, we had 3 fellowships a week, a HFC meeting every other week, and a branch meeting once a month.. Let's add that up..
Twig mtgs - 3 x 4 = 12
HFC meeting - 2 = 2
Branch mtg = 1
That 15 meetings a month.. And a month consists of how many days? 30? Half my timei n meetings. At least once in awhile one of those twig nights would be witness night, which really meant, let's go have fun together but in case someone asks, you can tell them who you're with and invite em to twig..
What Vision and Direction really did was to change the Way from allowing people to do what they thought was best, to micro-managed everything. Limb coordinators were now required to have x amount of new people (OR ELSE), they were required to show an increase in ABS to a certain % (OR ELSE). And so, here was the magnificently "man designed" plan to accomplish it. Controls, controls, controls.. All because they love you, was the reason given.. Can you believe the nerve.. Instead of God giving the increase, it was written black and white in the Vision and Direction given to Corps on the field overseeing limbs and above that they had to show proof of increase.. And with that weight on their shoulders, just think the weight they had to put on their "servants"..
Man driving man to extinction.. That's what it is..
instead it should be..
God! And His Son leading the church, rather than man leading it.. God giving the increase instead of man trying to 5-senses wise show "untrue" fruit. Genuinly allowing God to change the hearts of people, instead of trying to beat people over the head with the WOrd, or tricking them to come to fellowship just to show you got someone to come, instead of genuine love and care to help and SERVE THEM! Go figure.. We are here to serve one another, not be served..
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Belle
Oh, Pipes, oh the wellspring of emotions that letter raises in me. :(
Ya know, my ex and I tried for two years - TWO YEARS - to step down as mere assistant coordinators because of the toll it was taking on our marriage and time. Being a police officer, my ex worked 12 hours shifts, every other week being at least a 60 hour work week, but that 60 hour work week was more like 80 hours when you add in mandatory attendance at court, flight officer duties, SWAT team training, paperwork, the hours a DUI arrest requires, personal firing range time, etc., etc., etc.
But we didn't fight it, hard enough. We mainly wanted out of the responsibility because we felt inadequate since we couldn't keep up with the demands. He felt like a failure as a husband AND as a HFC asst. because we couldn't see that it wasn't US it was TWI and the demands they made on us and our time.
We made phone calls to Moynihan about this. Made calls to our HFC. Had meetings with our HFC. Talked to our various and sundry BCs...... ALL OF THEM LAID THE BLAME AT OUR FEET - Mostly at my poor ex's feet. All the pressure put on husbands was already unrealisticly immense, imo, but now they said that we just weren't managing our time well enough... My ex lived on almost 4 hours of sleep a night for most of the time of our married life because he felt obligated (afraid of not) spending at least an hour "in the Word" in addition to everything else. (A tired, frustrated police officer is not good for anyone caught for a traffic violation
)
Anyone who knows my ex knows what a great big heart he has for people and how obedient he is, especially if he thinks God wants or expects him to do something. Nobody, but nobody deserves to have that kind of pressure put on them, but especially not people like my ex who would drive themselves to the grave doing whatever they were told was expected of them.
It totally ....es me off to think of the burdens they put on us and the guilt they laid at our feet for not living up to the unrealistic expectations and demands they put on us!!
I better stop before I blow a gasket thinking back on those times...
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potato
I'm very interested in finding out what the "oversight" you mention consisted of. I remember feeling dogged, between my ex-husband talking about me behind my back with the hfc and their personal oversight through 2003. I couldn't imagine them having the time to personally oversee almost every aspect of the lives of every person in the fellowship, but I keep hearing things that make me believe that was in fact what they were directed to do, and I wasn't getting as much personal attention as I thought I was. what exactly was expected of hfc in their "oversight" of the regular folks?
I remember being required to be at fellowship 3x/week, as directed by LCM. it was not optional. no time off for illness, either. my baby was sick and I had to take him and sit in the hall while he cried so I wouldn't distract everyone from "receiving the Word".
the detailed oversight persisted for a long time.... prior to LCM falling from grace there were weekly reports, no outsider friends, I even got confronted for trying to get pregnant when we were in debt and being told I had no business trying to have a baby. afterward LCM, it lightened up some and one of the families was allowed to take in her unbelieving mother instead of putting her in a home, but there was a lot of grumbling from the hfc about her decision, and about other people... he did a lot of criticizing of people's decisions behind their backs to everyone in the group and actively worked to convince people not to make their own decisions. I think he badmouthed people to make everyone suspicious of each other so no one trusted each other.... another method of control.
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I Love Bagpipes
Glad to meet you T & O. I remember those years..and for us the worst year was 1998. Don't know if that was the case for other folks. And we weren't even hfc's that year, only assistants. We almost left that year...but alas.....we stuck around.
We moved late that year and leadership in the new area wasn't as heavy handed, even though we were hfcs. Seems much depended(s) on local leadership. Then we got new local leadership, still not as heavy handed as the lcm days....but there was more an air of control.
Belle...the tried to step down...tell me about it. I decided I wasn't coordinating anymore in the fall of 2002. Hubby said that was fine, that I didn't have to. I called the BC and was told I couldn't do that. For once I stood up for myself, ended up in tears, and raising my voice (not my standard mo...raising my voice). The BC shut up at that point. Hubby gave his notice a month or so later.....but kept at it for another dang 6 months because no one was "qualified" (out of debt, ac grad, willing). That 6 months really took a toll on our marriage. I was the good wife and played the role, but never attended another leadership meeting. My doctor had told me to quit going to the leadership meetings. Every time I went to one it took me 4 days to recoup; I'd be beating myself up for not being able to live up to the standard.
Potato, glad to meet you too. I don't recall the specifics of the oversight in the V & D. I remember a stapled hand out with all the info...and that we were to spend time with each grad. It seems we were to be helping them with witnessing, time management, and maybe finances? T & O may have a better recollection of that than me. I can check with my hubby later to see what he remembers.
Anyway,this letter reminded me that the lighter demands after lcm were still not light. I don't know/recall how long the V & D oversight persisted.
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TrustAndObey
Hey Pipes,
I don't have my files readily available.. I think if I look I might be able to find the Vision and Direction given out to the Region and Limb Coordinators.. Maybe If I feel like it someday, I'll scan it and put a copy on the web for all those wanting to see how ungodly their direction really is.. Unless of course someone from the Way would like to tell me how God directed them to require a 3% or maybe it was 5% increase in numbers... Sounds more like manmade desires to me..
The thing with all this is that it's all ran from man.. Err woman, hehe.. And most even from the Limb level and down are nothing more than go to people.. I have known a good deal of Branch, Limb, and even a Region coordinator that are good honest folk that realize there are some major problems with doctrine, with direction, with quite a number of things, and yet they feel like it is their duty to stay and try and change things from within. Man, the number of talks I've had with leadership that really are meek that are there now. But they fail at the point that they think they OWE the ministry.. They OWE them.. Umm.. What happened to "OWE NO MAN ANYTHING"!?!?!!?! Yeah, they think they owe the ministry - or maybe they think they owe God but since the ministry is their God - there ya go.. So they put up with the demands that their leadership puts on them. And the whole while it's people like Rosalie, Harve Platig, Rico Magnelli, and John Linder that run basically the entire show.. Yeah, I think those are the top 4 if I remember.. Don't let the other titles and positions fool you.. Those ARE the decision makers. Some are just "hidden" decision makers - most notably John Linder. As for Jean Ives... Yeah, just a fall back person like Reynolds was. John Rupp just wants power and position, so he'll do whatever. But they don't make the main decisions.. I've been in meetings with just the Trustee Cabinet, and it's pretty clear whose trying to change things and who runs it all.. Rosalie allows even Donna Martindale to make police changes on her own. They basically kiss her behind because she was LCM's wife!
The point is.. There really are a lot of wonderful and kind leaders in the Way. THis is what attracts people even now. But unfortunately their "head" is not Jesus Christ! Instead they have willing changed it for a man-made headship.. "and the head of man is Christ" get's changed to "and the head of man is his religious man-ordained leader!". Christ LIVES! He leads too. But that won't happen in the Way..
Rosalie basically was ran by fear but now a desire for power. She changed things from the fear motivation that LCM brought to a manmade "love" motivation. What do you expect from women! Only it's not genuine. Instead it's "whatever will make them happy and keep them from leaving.. lets do that'... And you think I'm kidding?! No.. I've been in meetings where top leadership (I don't mean Limb or Branch low level folks) was being reproved for not handling situations with their folks right because they made their "servants" complain too much and was giving the ministry a bad rap. So, what does Rosalie decide.. Why don't you just stop confronting for a month or two and let the situation die down.. Just hang out with them but don't confront anything.. Show them your their friend.. This is her "actual words!". Ummm.. You guys see what is going on right? That's not GOD"S LOVE! That's Man made, we'll kiss your behind if you make too much stink about us (As long as you have reason to raise such a stink)... Instead of changing policy and actually listening and changing to God's ways, they'd much rather look good, be nice, show fake love, and hope you'll stay, and then if you still aren't nice, then you were a bad apple and need marked and there was no wrongdoing on leadership..
Those who just do what they ask though, well, their the few, the proud, the great we got em were we want them so now let's make them do more! You know the type..
BUt I'd say 25% of leadership their now, judging by the fact the I know at least 10% personally and have talked to them, but these are just those who are waiting for change to happen and think they can change it from inside out.. I gave up after trying to talk with Harve and Rosalie.. They both showed how not meek they were and their desire was just to run the freakin ministry and keep it afloat, rather than keep it godly. Hush and be friends with the troublemakers (unless they are too quarrelsome) and the quiet ones make do all the work (until they catch on and leave, but meanwhile their genuine love fools the newbies)..
Then you have 50% of leadership that just want to move up and be powerful and have position.. So they do whatever is told to them.. Or they tell others or do whatever they think their leaders want to hear so they look good. And all the while enjoying the power they have over everyone.. Or if they are low on the pole, they prance around with their ego and tell you how great they are by the success they had - usally at the expense of everyone else..
And then the last 25% of leaders there are just quiet, do whatever, unknowing what's going on.. That's a big percentage.. Trust me.. It doesn't mean there's much hope.. BUt.. There's a good deal of em.. Alot of them don't want to know either.. They are too fooled.
Oh yeah, so what was the topic??! Hehe
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Belle
Thanks for all the insight, T&O! :) Go on like that anytime you feel like. Some things just trigger loads of thoughts to come rushing to our heads. It's good for us to get it out when that happens and here at the cafe there's usually someone reading who really needed to see what was written.
I have a real hard time understanding and having any sort of sympathy for folks like the Moynihans who have been around since way back when and not only knew about vee pee and craiggers illegal, immoral and lethal behavior, but also covered for it and still do. IMO they are worse than those men because they knew and didn't do a d@mn thing to stop it.
Do you think the folks at HQ can see through the facade? Do you think new staffers are able to figure it out and see them for the whited sepulchres they are?
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lindyhopper
Hey T&O, Thanks for your imput and up close and personal POV.
Was the HFC Vision and Direction paper anything like the one for the corps a few years earlier? Take a look at it here.
Sounds like things are a lot like I suspected....in hibernation, waiting for the next opportunity for control to come back out of the closet.
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TrustAndObey
Hey Belle,
Hehe.. Yeah there's so much that upsets me about them, that I could go one for days. But then, I wouldn't get any work done, and what good would it do anyways! Hopefully it helps people, but I don't want people to get the wrong idea and just be angry all their life. I'm not angry at them.. Heck, they did what they thought was right in their man-made and ran world. Rather than trusting God, they decided to trust in themselves. The worst that happens is people leave and now have a pure disgust for anything godly. But that ain't it. God's alive and still there for those who call on him. His Son is still leading the "true" church of which has no ministerial/denominational marks. I just want to help people make the right decision. Every denomination and Christian group is ran by man. Doesn't make them evil in a sense, just means that they have changed from serving God to serving man at the top and the rest follow unknowingly. And the Way is just one of many that has "offended" many children of God.. "Woe unto them" Jesus said..
Christ before his death prayed that we might be one, just as He and The Father were one.. (Now however you view that oneness is up to you, I tend to view it the more biblical view of Husband and wife). Instead of being one, instead of each one serving one another, instead of each one submitting to one another, you have the wolves that try and be "head" over Christ's church. It's HIS, not Ours.. It's His bride to be, not ours. And God never made us to be Lords over it.. Overseers, sure.. Episkopos.. It's a function not a position. Watching over one another with a desire to help and guide and feed. Not a Lording of I'm in charge, take the headship from Christ and now I'm him sort of thing. I just pray people wake up when they leave and realize, God is a God of love. Genuine love. The love which gives, as the greatest example is Him giving His son to die for us. That love. That giving. That's genuine. Not I'm a trustee (or director now). I sit at the head table and should be waited on hand and foot. I tell you what to do sort of thing. I'm in charge. I'm God! (Not said, but certainly lorded over others)..
What goes on at HQ? The 4 chiefs I mentioned play God.. And quietly convene behind the scenes on how to keep the ministry afloat. And the staff.. Most are not happy there. That's 75%.. You wonder how it can stay afloat with such a large percentage unhappy.. But the majority of these are the two 25% groups I mentioned. Either know somethings up, or just don't want to know, but either way hope things change for the better. A good amount of staffers see through the facade because of their closeness. Only, most that are there are there for reasons they couldn't survive elsewhere. So it's like a cat dependant on it's master to feed him. And scared to go out into the big world and realize the one feeding him isn't really all that kind. And they get told things like, "Your taking the easy way out if you leave".. No.. That's a lie.. It's easy to stay and be fed and just take the abuse. It is tough to leave when you're hand fed to stay. So you'll put up with the evil. Granted the scenes have changed. Men leadership don't force other's to have sex. Instead it's all seduction now.. At HQ and Gunnison, the women outnumber the men. Most women Corps know they will be single, so they seduce away. Men willingly play the part enjoying what they get. (Granted there are many good guys, honest, GOd loving folks - BUT THEY ARE QUIET!).. But sex is still rampant at the root locales. And a good part of that is women with women.. Doesn't that make you feel good. That's what happens when you have #1 being a women and #2 (Donna) being a woman and they run the show with the corrupt men who love the power given to them [aka Rupp, Magnelli, and Linder] giving their input and guiding the ministry along as well, while the rest just follow. Knowing there are problems, and hoping for change, and feeling like they owe the ministry, all the while scared to leave beause the know it's a lie that it's easier to leave, cause it ain't easy..
NEWS FLASH... It's easier when you trust God! Because He will make a way...
Case and point.. I left.. The day I left I was full time with the ministry as Way Corps.. I believed God. Moved away from where I was stationed to get as far from being pulled back so I could have some time between me and GOd. Not knowing housing or job or anything. But I prayed, believed.. And wouldn't you know it. The day I left , someone was trying to reach me to ask if I wanted a job (And they didn't even know I was leaving, and I had told them YEARS before i would never be working secular again). But it so happens there was the opening. Only I didn't know till 2 weeks later when I just happened to stop by this ol' friends place of business and he mentioned they tried calling me that day.. I'm like.. Umm.. Ok. I had left that very day and God was preparing the way! Housing came the day after I arrived.. Trust God.. Those who are in there right now, and he'll make the way.. You can't change Rosalie. You can't change the Way. You don't owe them anything. You owe God your life, but it doesn't help for you to be "chained" to a ministry that isn't serving God, because the god of this world is just using your time and energy to serve him by it. Chain yourself to God, not man, or man formed groups/denominations.. He leads. Christ is the head of "EVERY MAN" the Scriptures say.. So why are you allowing another head? WHy are you allowing another God? God is the head of Christ, Christ is the head of man, man is the head of his wife.. There is no other godly structure.. That is how it is, adding to it to add your leadership in the headship is wrong! Get out and get with GOd and let Him lead..
Ok.. There I go on another rampade... Sorry..
Moynihan.. Yeah... He knew everything. He is of the 50% that just enjoys his position and power and prestige, so he goes along with it all.. He's not corrupt so to say, but lazy and bought out.. When I say corrupt, he doesn't devise plans and traps, he just implements the traps his leaders tell him because he'd loose his prestige and power.
What happened to being watchmen... Folks, I'm blowing the horn! I blew it when I was there. So their blood is not on me.. But people who are bought by the way and given power and enjoy it, they will not blow. The fear will always encase them..
Ok.. I'm going to eat lunch before it gets too late.
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skyrider
Good posts, T & O.............Thanks.
I bold-faced a few points that bear REPEATING.
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Nottawayfer
Welcome Trust and Obey!
Sex is still rampant at the root locales...did it ever stop??? LOLOL!!! I spent 5 years at HQ, and I know what happened in Founders Hall, seeing who was leaving who's room at odd hours of the night. I saw a few questionable things with lcm wondering why he was doing what he was doing or why a girl was acting like she had a crush on him. Makes you go hmmmmmm.....
There are many women who are so desperate to be loved and want to get married but can't pursue it because there are no men in TWI for them. The ones that are there are either undesirable in a major way or they are having too much fun farking so many women at once. I saw men doing that big time at HQ.
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bliss
Welcome T & O, You don't mind me(us) calling you that right?
We just left 1 year and 5 months ago, 6 days and 20 hours ago!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
I still have many staff friends and Corps family. The ''illogic'' about staying is incredible. It's exactly what you said. They don't think they could ''survive'' in the real world anymore. So they'll eat it.
They also really, truly believe that things will get better.
One relative thinks she "owes it to THE MINISTRY" for 'saving' her from a life of drugs and recklessness.
Ummmmmmm do they not read their bible? God is a God of individuals too. He can work with any humble heart. It wasn't the man that saved her, it was the Lord's direction using his feet and hands! She owes it to God only. But, when I say that, it's the ''of course it's God silly.....".....whatever.
Drives me nuts.
We are so blessed and happier than we have ever been in our whole ministry life.........15 -30yrs.
We make it a big point to respect man, allow God to use them the way He wants, but in no way, (no pun) are we gonna follow a man again. Freeing thought.
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krys
Welcome Trust and Obey! Have you had your coffee yet? Pie, brownies or croissants? What can we get you.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Your post on this thread should be required reading of everyone here who's forgotten what it was like! Thanks for your straight talking and honest remarks. Thanks for calling a spade by it's proper name...and for your refreshing style.
I hope you'll be with us a long time - and I also hope you enjoy your stay here.
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TrustAndObey
Thanks for the welcome guys! It sure means a lot.
krysilis, I'll take a donut if you got one.. Strawberry filled! Yum!
Yeah, it's really scary to think of all the sex stuff that goes on to this day.. I'll be honest though, I really never knew there was a problem. Didn't have a clue! The only time I knew of a problem was the Rock that was mentioned concerning the kids and their rampant sexuality in the 90s.. Maybe 94?! But leadership?!
Didn't know till I prayed to God that LCM would be removed from being able to teach the ministry. That was what I asked for, that's what I got. Y'all may not believe me and maybe some say coincidence, but this is what happened.. I was in-residence training.. Martindale was teaching some strange doctrines during Corps morning that was just for the in-residence and it didn't line up at all. And after going to my leadership I found out that they didn't care, cause whatever he said, they believed. My Corps brothers and sisters all went along with it too. And I'm just like this has got to stop! So.. The next corps morning. They start with announcements, and here I am just thinking how screwed up things are with his teaching, so.. I ask God. I said, 'God, he's teaching unbiblical things every time he teaches us.. Please stop him!'. And wouldn't you know, the next accouncement came, LCM would not be teaching the in-residence separately any more.. Wow! I'm like.. Was that you God?! oK.. So now we only had every other week the normal Corps Morning. And same thing.. Within a month I start to see weird teachings crop in that.. So there ya go, I start praying again that morning, "Please stop him!".. And wouldn't ya know, that morning, it was announced, He will no longer be teaching the Corps due to his schedule, instead others would fill in.. Hmmm. Ok... This prayer thing works! Hehe.. (Truly I believed long before this..).. About a month later goes on and well, the lies start coming into the Sunday Teaching services LCM was teaching.. Well. You guys can just guess what I did.. Only this time, a few weeks to a month went by and it was announced, LCM will no longer be teaching the Sunday Teaching Services either.. Gee.. really? Hmm.. This was around December of what 1999?! And about 4 months later in April, we all know what came out.. Yeah, that was the first I ever knew of sex problems and his adultry.. Course after that, came all the fallout, the attempted coverups, and what have you.. Well.. I was just glad he wasn't teaching wrong doctrine and hoped Rosalie could change it.. Boy was I in for a surprise..
Things changed quickly though from the fear to the love.. But it was clear it was all man made cover.. And nothing was genuine.. I waited .. waited.. tried to discuss it, bring things up, but everything was knocked down.. And now years later, there's still no change. And people are still waiting.. Only, for most on the field, that wasn't at a root locale, you'd never really see much of the treachery and corruption.. Honestly, the home fellowship was a kind place if you had a good honest coordinator.. (Albeit, I think there are many issues that make the twigs/fellowships pointless). Most of the weird doctrines never make it out of the Corps household. Although you can be assured they swim around their brains, those who leave them wide open that is for whatever the Way teaches.. Bereans! RIghtly dividing and studying, right? Umm. Yeah sure.. Only that's great and all. Studying that is.. Knowing the scriptures and all.. BUt honestly, does it make a hill of beans if you don't have that relationship with your head? And I don't mean some ministry leadership that tries to be your head. I mean Jesus, YOUR LORD! And if you ain't got a relationship with God, what good is all that head knowledge? Gee, so 4 were crucified with Christ. And that will help when I talk to my Heavenly Father? What I pray to him, Oh yeah.. GOd, since I know that 4 were crucified, your going to listen to me, right? Gee.. Thanks!
Don't get me wrong, wrong doctrine does effect us.. It's important to know the truth.. But well, y'all know.. God comes first.. And that's the problem in the Way.. EVeryone left there thinks everything they do their is putting God first.. Yup.. If I read my Bible, I'm putting God first. If I listen to the STS, I'm putting God first. I go to the Way Mag, I'm putting God first. If I clean the toilets for a class, I'm putting God first.. And anything done for the ministry is done for God, so I owe my life to the ministry, err I mean God! Good thing is that God looks at our hearts.. All those things we did unknowglingly, God knew if we were doing it for Him, and will reward us accordingly.. And those who screw lives up there day in and day out because of their fear to lose position or lose members or because their quest for power, well, God knows.. Vengance is His..
AND HE SHALL REPAY!
Hey.. But if there are donuts available.. Maybe I should stuff my mouth rather than going on and on...
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Twinky
Hi Trusty
Just one thing, were you supposedly full time with TWI or was this you in "voluntary capacity"?
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Belle
Yeppers! God is good, ain't he? I'm glad He answers prayers! I'm glad you were able to see them answered, too. :) I know it doesn't always work out the way we want it to or when we want it to, but God does look on the heart and he does want what's best for us, even when we can't see it that way.
I prayed forever for my ex to see TWI for what it is.
I wanted us to get out together;
for him to reconcile with his family whom he totally cut out of our lives at Moynihan's "suggestion";
for him to loosen up and give himself credit for how wonderful he is;
for him to trust himself and recognize that God works in HIM and through HIM to take care of HIM - not through those kool-aid drinking TWIts who don't really have his best interest in mind when they tell him/us what to do.
I wanted us to have the family I always dreamed about and that he said he did too when we were dating and engaged. :(
Anyway, he did reconcile with his family after our divorce. I still hope the other personal prayers for him come to pass, and I still hope to have that family I always dreamed about but know it will not be with him. But just in case God sees things differently, I'm practicing to be that eccentric old lady who goes to her grave single with no children....you know, the one the kids think is the coolest because she's so "different".
I was able to talk the cook into making some strawberry filled donuts for you and will get some coffee to go with them. Would you like cream and sugah with that?
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skyrider
TrustAndObey,
You've probably put the pieces together, but here's a very brief recap:
1) Craig believes vpw's doctrine.....for him to have plenty of sex "to loosen him up spiritually."
2) Craig has scores of women......dayton motels, gunnison, motorcoach, etc.
3) Roalie knew about this as early as 1995.....as she stated in a court deposition.
4) At the 1998 hq adv class....lcm had sex with a married woman who became distraught. This married woman, who husband was back in Gunnison with their kids, told her family corps brother. He went and confronted craig. Immediately, the inresidence corps guy was sent packing and lindxr took him to a bus station. The ex-corps guy made lots of phone calls......lots of upheaval. Dozens were mark/avoid.
5) In Feb 1999, P@ul Allxn found out that his wife had sex with LCM. P@ul confronted lcm that very night as lindxer was in the room with a holstered gun at his side. P@ul demanded for martindale's resignation. Didn't happen. P@ul and his wife, both on hq staff, were fired and were told to pack their bags. Lindxr had orders to make sure they get gone, talk to no one, as soon as possible.
6) P@ul Allxn put together his website........WAYDALE. :)
7) Waydale....from March 1999 onward......puts lots of information out there. Waydale was booming with thousands of posts, loads of documents, insider information.
8) Martindale knew that a lawsuit was coming his way.
9) In March/April of 2000.....the Allen lawsuit against twi, lcm, bot, others
10) April 2000.......Martindale admits to having "an affair." (one, consensual affair)
11) Twi's lawyers convince twi's trustees to get rid of craig......too much liability.
12) September 2000.........lcm secretly heads to Toledo to live with a married couple (and receive counseling and therapy for depression, etc).
Lots behinds the scenes for sure.
Thanks for praying.
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Nottawayfer
Very well said Trust and Obey!!! We were very mislead in this issue of putting God first. It was talked about constantly, but was it really done???I rekindled my relationship with Him when I left twi. I was really shocked to see how stagnate it had been during my 20 years in twi. I remember before twi, I used to talked to Him all the time. SIT replaced that, and I mindlessly SIT. Where's the relationship in that? Isn't a relationship two-way communication? SIT was overrated in TWI IMHO.:)
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TrustAndObey
Notawayfer,
SIT did replace a bunch, didn't it? I think if there is anything that differentiates between True Christianity and the religions of this world (including the religious Christianity the world promotes).. It's got to be the relationship we can have with the Creator of this world, which isn't just one WAY! I pray and speak, and well, it doesn't just go into a deep black hole! Hehe.. Course I can't forget that we also have our Lord Jesus who also is with us. As I was reminded this weekend when I went out to go see a live production of the life of our Lord.. "Lo, I am with you always, even unto the end of the world". Was he lying or what?! So... He must be, despite how much the Way tried to lessen our Lord's role. They did that because they wanted to take his role. Chris isn't on this earth to lead the church, instead his ministers and Way leaders take his place.. Good God, what idolatry! Christ is with us, even now! He leads, even now. He's our head, even NOW!
Ok, no more talking...
Belle,
Thanks so much! Yummmm A huge strawberry donut.. Never thought I'd have one will real fruit filling! I'll take a bit of sugar with that their coffee too! Munch munch..
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