For the risk of having the snot slapped outta me.... I'm gonna say it...
Perhaps they had a DAMN good reason for the spy. Perhaps someone was teaching something waaayyyyyyyy off base, or were not being good ministers - afterall, the fellowship leaders do affiliate themselves with the CFF name, etc. - so maybe they did mess up. Maybe the person running the fellowship was about to really do some damage to God's people, which would lay blame to the CFF Ministry. Maybe shutting that fellowship down was a good thing - who knows.
Now, in no way what-so-ever do I know the details about this - I've checked out CFF and just wasn't interested - BUT - I DO know there's usually 2-sides to a story...
(ducking)
(not the quacking kind - as in, getting out of the line of fire.)
Chas - thanks for speaking my thoughts - I wanted to post on this earlier, but I couldn't get my thoughts together as I wanted. You said it as I wanted to.
I agree with Chas completely and totally. Except I'm not ducking, cause I see no problem there.
(((((Chas))))) Ha ha, you thought I couldn't hug ya when you were ducking? Silly wabbit!
John S. was very kind to me when the Way kicked me out in 1998. He gave a total stranger his counsel and resources when asked and did not expect anything in return. His generosity of heart was instrumental in my healing.
Even though CFS is not for me- because I know to much about VP now- and because going backwards does not feel right, I would hate to see CFS go the way of twi. The relayed event feels like something is missing.
For the risk of having the snot slapped outta me.... I'm gonna say it...
Perhaps they had a DAMN good reason for the spy. Perhaps someone was teaching something waaayyyyyyyy off base, or were not being good ministers - afterall, the fellowship leaders do affiliate themselves with the CFF name, etc. - so maybe they did mess up. Maybe the person running the fellowship was about to really do some damage to God's people, which would lay blame to the CFF Ministry. Maybe shutting that fellowship down was a good thing - who knows.
Now, in no way what-so-ever do I know the details about this - I've checked out CFF and just wasn't interested - BUT - I DO know there's usually 2-sides to a story...
(ducking)
(not the quacking kind - as in, getting out of the line of fire.)
I know both of the teachers involved in this and they are good ministers, they are as confused by all of this as well. However I guess the ends justifies the means in your argument.
Though not directly affiliated with CFF I have at times met together with the group here for joint events. We have had several of the CFF teachers come here including John ,Wayne and Research Geek Catcup's husband who posts here . I have had none of the indicated problems with any of them, the last weekend we had four fellowships get together a "geer group" from Chicago a "CFF group" and a couple of independent fellowships. Geek came out from Ohio to teach as well as some from Chicago. We all stayed together for the weekend at the camp cabins and there was no hint of any cross group problems. We had a party and dance in a hall that we turned into a fifties diner and we had Sunday fellowship in the diner with coffee and rolls and a lunch following. Something is lacking in this story above it seems to me.
Soooooo - has anyone talked to any of the "perpetrators" directly?
I'm not a fan of the rumor mill - seems to me that our "official motto" in rez was "It is Written" but our unoffical and much more common motto was "It Is Rumored"
I do not attend any ex twi affiliated groups - just don't care to -
Even if they are repeating the mistakes of the past - we shouldn't
OK now I better run - the grenades are being launched.......
This has been very interesting and I am sorry I brought it up. I usually only read here and dont post. I only know what has happened here in the southeast. But all of the responces that I have seen have some truth in them. Dove you are correct and I wish we could all just get along and move the Word and help people be there best for God. However it appears that will not be the case. I guess at some point as the groups grow and begin to get more people they will have to come to the point of US and THEM. And so it goes, we have Methodist, catholics, splinter groups and ex wayfers.............I know all of the players in this sad drama and none want to hurt anyone and all believe they are helping everyone and talking and walking for God---so who is right and who is wrong? I guess at the gathering we will find out.
The end results as I see them is as follows:
research ministries eventually will become religous. They have no choice it becomes more about the Doctrine and the desire to prove they are right and the others are wrong; than the people the doctrine is designed to help. As for the splinter groups---if they cast themselves in the Image of TWI then they are destined to fail and if they survive it all really depends on who takes over when the founder retires as the whether they hold together or not. The problem with home fellowships is that sooner or later the home fellowship teacher will say something wrong and get kicked out for it. I know most of the leaders of the splinters and they are all good people but all argue about the Word and who knows what and when......all the time.
My only desire here was to warn that things are changing and it appears the walls are going up... I listened to a VPW teaching tape the other day warning about religion creeping into the Way----- if he only knew what would happen. The warning shots were fired.......
Maybe he did know what would happen...and it's interesting too that gs also is becoming like that as well with it's own 'set' doctrine and what should and shouldn't be believed.
Soooooo - has anyone talked to any of the "perpetrators" directly?
I'm not a fan of the rumor mill - seems to me that our "official motto" in rez was "It is Written" but our unoffical and much more common motto was "It Is Rumored"
I do not attend any ex twi affiliated groups - just don't care to -
Even if they are repeating the mistakes of the past - we shouldn't
OK now I better run - the grenades are being launched.......
I have all the emails and letters in PDF format and will supply privately to those who identify themselves---I wont post names of ther believers without their permmision. I have mentioned John and wayne only because they operate the CFFM.
Heartman, don't be sorry. Just don't be surprised when views on any given topic brought up here vary. Widely.
Personally, I can neither criticize nor defend CFF, because I've never attended one of their meetings or listened to one of their teachings. I know a lot of people who are involved in that particular group, and I think that's great for them if it meets their needs for fellowship.
In any organization, things happen that you're not going to like. Whether what you've witnessed is an isolated incident or signals the widespread creep of legalism throughout the group remains to be seen, I guess. I saw a lot of dumb a$$ things done by people in twi that weren't representative of anything but their own dumb a$$ness. :)
No one believed the stories of abuse from the twi before '86 either. Even when victims and eye witnesses spoke up.
Just because an individuals experience with the perpatraitor is good doesn't meean that person isn't acting another way with others.
Burrying your head in the sand and saying it couldn't happen, just because it hasn't happened to you is no guarentee that what the poster is saying is not true.
Heartman-------RE: Your requesting clarification of doctine.
I remember asking TWI leadership if there was a list of beliefs like those of mainstream denominations.
I was told the Word is far too "dynamic" to limit in such a way. What a load of garbage. Either you believe Christ is God or you don't. (Only using this belief as an example) Just come out and state what the beliefs are instead of pretending only the select few could truly understand them.
Ironic(imo) that "dynamic" defines exactly what TWI was NOT!
(When I say TWI I am not referring to those who were down in the trenches doing what was needed to keep the Word living in peoples' everyday lives.)
Well, I guess it's no surprise for me either. As I understand it, there are a whole lot of people with CFF that stayed all the way until Craig got caught with his tallywhacker where it shouldn't have been. And if that was the "final straw" that caused the people to leave, then they weren't really paying very much attention in the first place, because there were many many things that were way off the Word besides all of the adultry, rape, and coercion that surrounded them. The very obsessive micro-management alone was so far from the old TWI days, that I am surprised any old timers like Shroyer stuck around. To me, it seems like to stick around that long and finally leave because of the "Craig getting busted" thing tells me that they were not too sharp at all, to then go and start a full fledged "ministry". So, no surprise that it's taken this turn...
Just for the record - I'm not accusing anyone of spreading rumors - nor do I really have a dog in this fight. I just know what happens when talk moves.
If this is true it is truly sad - but at least you are informed and can move on if you need to.
I have all the emails and letters in PDF format and will supply privately to those who identify themselves---I wont post names of ther believers without their permmision. I have mentioned John and wayne only because they operate the CFFM.
The best phase of membership in any group of any kind is the Pre-Join phase. Before you actually sign up, everybody likes you, thinks you're great and can't wait to see you again. Need a ride? No problem. Can't make it? Oh no - we'll miss you!
You're always welcome and pret' near always forgiven, because hey - you're not really fully "in" yet. You're a notch wating to be made.
Once you Join, you're Old News. "You're late - we covered that last week, don't you care?!" You're Rank and File now and that pretty much describes it. Rank. Now file in and sit down.
I offer this advice freely, however if you'd really like to master, not just learn the tricks of not-joining, you can pre-order my next book to be titled "100 Proven Ways to Be The New Guy and Other Tricks to Success". And remember - there's never any charge for any of my books, ever - to anyone! Just send 14.95 in USD to "signmeup@real_love.cam" to cover my voluminous shipping and warehousing expenses (all done for you!) and you'll get exactly what's coming to you - real soon!
Also, for the record - I'm not finger pointing or any of that - I have no problem with the poster who started this thread. I really don't give the southern most end of a rodent about CFF or any other spin off. I did check them out and they were very nice - but very in OH and very much like TWI, to me.
BUT if you follow my posts, or even just hang around for a while, you'll notice I'm often the devil's advocate.
Socks - But WAIT there's more!! for only an additional $12.95 you can get RumRunner's book on how to kick Dooj's b(tt in a cheesecake contest using only a horn of plenty and a block of cream cheese! Why only $12.95? Because Socks charges me so much for warehousing my inventory.....
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dancing
I'd say we do not have the whole story of what happened.
Personally I'd never allow myself or my family to have anything vpw related.
Including cff cef and the like.
They are not flexible enough for the spirit to work.
As in much religions.
I must stay free from being trapped into any religion.
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templelady
If it looks like a duck, walks like a duck, sounds like a duck...
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heartman
You have good eyes!!! It is mine!-----Fredrick!
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ChasUFarley
For the risk of having the snot slapped outta me.... I'm gonna say it...
Perhaps they had a DAMN good reason for the spy. Perhaps someone was teaching something waaayyyyyyyy off base, or were not being good ministers - afterall, the fellowship leaders do affiliate themselves with the CFF name, etc. - so maybe they did mess up. Maybe the person running the fellowship was about to really do some damage to God's people, which would lay blame to the CFF Ministry. Maybe shutting that fellowship down was a good thing - who knows.
Now, in no way what-so-ever do I know the details about this - I've checked out CFF and just wasn't interested - BUT - I DO know there's usually 2-sides to a story...
(ducking)
(not the quacking kind - as in, getting out of the line of fire.)
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bowtwi
Chas - thanks for speaking my thoughts - I wanted to post on this earlier, but I couldn't get my thoughts together as I wanted. You said it as I wanted to.
I agree with Chas completely and totally. Except I'm not ducking, cause I see no problem there.
(((((Chas))))) Ha ha, you thought I couldn't hug ya when you were ducking? Silly wabbit!
I'm sure there are 2 sides to this story.
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Hopefull
Thank-you Chas for saying that.
John S. was very kind to me when the Way kicked me out in 1998. He gave a total stranger his counsel and resources when asked and did not expect anything in return. His generosity of heart was instrumental in my healing.
Even though CFS is not for me- because I know to much about VP now- and because going backwards does not feel right, I would hate to see CFS go the way of twi. The relayed event feels like something is missing.
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heartman
I know both of the teachers involved in this and they are good ministers, they are as confused by all of this as well. However I guess the ends justifies the means in your argument.
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WhiteDove
Though not directly affiliated with CFF I have at times met together with the group here for joint events. We have had several of the CFF teachers come here including John ,Wayne and Research Geek Catcup's husband who posts here . I have had none of the indicated problems with any of them, the last weekend we had four fellowships get together a "geer group" from Chicago a "CFF group" and a couple of independent fellowships. Geek came out from Ohio to teach as well as some from Chicago. We all stayed together for the weekend at the camp cabins and there was no hint of any cross group problems. We had a party and dance in a hall that we turned into a fifties diner and we had Sunday fellowship in the diner with coffee and rolls and a lunch following. Something is lacking in this story above it seems to me.
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Belle
Not to be a sh1t or biach or anything, but, umm..... Chas, there's usually THREE sides to every story:
His, Hers and the truth.
*ducking really quick and not quacking either*
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doojable
Soooooo - has anyone talked to any of the "perpetrators" directly?
I'm not a fan of the rumor mill - seems to me that our "official motto" in rez was "It is Written" but our unoffical and much more common motto was "It Is Rumored"
I do not attend any ex twi affiliated groups - just don't care to -
Even if they are repeating the mistakes of the past - we shouldn't
OK now I better run - the grenades are being launched.......
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heartman
This has been very interesting and I am sorry I brought it up. I usually only read here and dont post. I only know what has happened here in the southeast. But all of the responces that I have seen have some truth in them. Dove you are correct and I wish we could all just get along and move the Word and help people be there best for God. However it appears that will not be the case. I guess at some point as the groups grow and begin to get more people they will have to come to the point of US and THEM. And so it goes, we have Methodist, catholics, splinter groups and ex wayfers.............I know all of the players in this sad drama and none want to hurt anyone and all believe they are helping everyone and talking and walking for God---so who is right and who is wrong? I guess at the gathering we will find out.
The end results as I see them is as follows:
research ministries eventually will become religous. They have no choice it becomes more about the Doctrine and the desire to prove they are right and the others are wrong; than the people the doctrine is designed to help. As for the splinter groups---if they cast themselves in the Image of TWI then they are destined to fail and if they survive it all really depends on who takes over when the founder retires as the whether they hold together or not. The problem with home fellowships is that sooner or later the home fellowship teacher will say something wrong and get kicked out for it. I know most of the leaders of the splinters and they are all good people but all argue about the Word and who knows what and when......all the time.
My only desire here was to warn that things are changing and it appears the walls are going up... I listened to a VPW teaching tape the other day warning about religion creeping into the Way----- if he only knew what would happen. The warning shots were fired.......
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allan w.
Maybe he did know what would happen...and it's interesting too that gs also is becoming like that as well with it's own 'set' doctrine and what should and shouldn't be believed.
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FreeAtLast
Thanks Ex, My kids say the same thing.
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heartman
I have all the emails and letters in PDF format and will supply privately to those who identify themselves---I wont post names of ther believers without their permmision. I have mentioned John and wayne only because they operate the CFFM.
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Linda Z
Heartman, don't be sorry. Just don't be surprised when views on any given topic brought up here vary. Widely.
Personally, I can neither criticize nor defend CFF, because I've never attended one of their meetings or listened to one of their teachings. I know a lot of people who are involved in that particular group, and I think that's great for them if it meets their needs for fellowship.
In any organization, things happen that you're not going to like. Whether what you've witnessed is an isolated incident or signals the widespread creep of legalism throughout the group remains to be seen, I guess. I saw a lot of dumb a$$ things done by people in twi that weren't representative of anything but their own dumb a$$ness. :)
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now I see
No one believed the stories of abuse from the twi before '86 either. Even when victims and eye witnesses spoke up.
Just because an individuals experience with the perpatraitor is good doesn't meean that person isn't acting another way with others.
Burrying your head in the sand and saying it couldn't happen, just because it hasn't happened to you is no guarentee that what the poster is saying is not true.
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waysider
Heartman-------RE: Your requesting clarification of doctine.
I remember asking TWI leadership if there was a list of beliefs like those of mainstream denominations.
I was told the Word is far too "dynamic" to limit in such a way. What a load of garbage. Either you believe Christ is God or you don't. (Only using this belief as an example) Just come out and state what the beliefs are instead of pretending only the select few could truly understand them.
Ironic(imo) that "dynamic" defines exactly what TWI was NOT!
(When I say TWI I am not referring to those who were down in the trenches doing what was needed to keep the Word living in peoples' everyday lives.)
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J0nny Ling0
Well, I guess it's no surprise for me either. As I understand it, there are a whole lot of people with CFF that stayed all the way until Craig got caught with his tallywhacker where it shouldn't have been. And if that was the "final straw" that caused the people to leave, then they weren't really paying very much attention in the first place, because there were many many things that were way off the Word besides all of the adultry, rape, and coercion that surrounded them. The very obsessive micro-management alone was so far from the old TWI days, that I am surprised any old timers like Shroyer stuck around. To me, it seems like to stick around that long and finally leave because of the "Craig getting busted" thing tells me that they were not too sharp at all, to then go and start a full fledged "ministry". So, no surprise that it's taken this turn...
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prayingfordaylight
So, to sum up my feelings in song....
YOU AINT WORTH...the salt in my tears.
or
Here's a quater (50 CENT)...call someone who cares.....
or
na na na na nana na na na na nana na na na na na......its YOUR turn now to cry.....
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doojable
Just for the record - I'm not accusing anyone of spreading rumors - nor do I really have a dog in this fight. I just know what happens when talk moves.
If this is true it is truly sad - but at least you are informed and can move on if you need to.
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socks
I'm not with CFF. I won't be next.
Why am I smiling? I don't know what I'm missing.
The best phase of membership in any group of any kind is the Pre-Join phase. Before you actually sign up, everybody likes you, thinks you're great and can't wait to see you again. Need a ride? No problem. Can't make it? Oh no - we'll miss you!
You're always welcome and pret' near always forgiven, because hey - you're not really fully "in" yet. You're a notch wating to be made.
Once you Join, you're Old News. "You're late - we covered that last week, don't you care?!" You're Rank and File now and that pretty much describes it. Rank. Now file in and sit down.
I offer this advice freely, however if you'd really like to master, not just learn the tricks of not-joining, you can pre-order my next book to be titled "100 Proven Ways to Be The New Guy and Other Tricks to Success". And remember - there's never any charge for any of my books, ever - to anyone! Just send 14.95 in USD to "signmeup@real_love.cam" to cover my voluminous shipping and warehousing expenses (all done for you!) and you'll get exactly what's coming to you - real soon!
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ChasUFarley
Also, for the record - I'm not finger pointing or any of that - I have no problem with the poster who started this thread. I really don't give the southern most end of a rodent about CFF or any other spin off. I did check them out and they were very nice - but very in OH and very much like TWI, to me.
BUT if you follow my posts, or even just hang around for a while, you'll notice I'm often the devil's advocate.
It's what I do best.
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RumRunner
Socks - But WAIT there's more!! for only an additional $12.95 you can get RumRunner's book on how to kick Dooj's b(tt in a cheesecake contest using only a horn of plenty and a block of cream cheese! Why only $12.95? Because Socks charges me so much for warehousing my inventory.....
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doojable
<_< RumRunner thinks he's funny - He's not <_<
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