Our limb leader Jo-- S---- at our first wow meeting taught this in relation to peter.
He pointed out how Peter listened to his leader and obeyed, and BECAUSE he obeyed, he got to walk on water.
If we wanted a miracle in our lives, if WE wanted to walk on water, we must be carefull to obey immediately in order to recieve that blessing.
He then pointed out that when Peter looked around at the wind and waves...the *circumstances* started allowing his 5 senses to influence him.... he sank.
We therefor must obey our leaders, ignoring what ever our five senses tell us, what ever common sense might dictate and just trust our leaders like Peter did.
And besides, even IF per chance our leader was wrong, why God would HAVE to honor our hearts and commitment anyway.
I think in hind sight that this was the foundational teaching that the others false teachings giving the bullies power were built upon.
God can only speak to you through your leader, God can only speak to the wife through the husband after marriage....(What the crap was THAT all about?? like some kind of switch is thrown and no more spiritual connection??)
God can only work for the kids through the parents/father head of the household.
The teachings were the weapons held to our heads, the scriptures, the ammunition in the weapons, to force people to do/ ignore/endure unconscionable treatment.
To this day it is difficult to hear scripture quoted without my hackles raising up in suspicion.
We ignored every instinct, every rule of common sense and did that which was completely contrary to our own will and well being, ignoring the needs of our families in our earnest desire to be obedient to God
When faced with these dilemmas, we would submit tearfully, brokenly to the mandate no matter how insane, or what the cost to us personally, no matter what common sense said to the contrary..... because we had been taught that this was what God almighty required of us.
One question? Why did it not occur to anyone to check the scriptures to see if what was being taught was in fact truth. If the earnest desire was and I believe it was to be obedient to God then why did people not do the one basic thing we heard from day one starting in PFAL The Word of God is the Will of God, I don't know of anyone that was around past a coffee break, that was not taught that to find out what God's Will was you needed to search and know the scriptures, that is how you find out "how to be obedient to God". How many gazillion times did we hear The Word of God is Our Only Rule for Faith and Practice. So why was it not? Was It Is Written just a slogan on the wall? Further when common sense caused a HUH? moment in our life, why were we to abandon years of teaching only to accept anything as truth?
And even if one failed to search the scriptures as we knew to do then why at least were not the doctrines questioned in contrast to teaching received. Like this one.
God gave his Word, in the written form, the reason being that He might interpret Himself and His will to us and for us. The Word of God is the Will of God, and no man or woman can really know the Will of God, without knowing the Word of God. To know God's Word you can not go by tradition, you can not go by the history of so called Christendom, you have to go back to the integrity of the Word. You can not go by what men say, by what theologians say, by what clergy or by what anyone else may say, you have to come back to the Word of God VPW
We teach our children that if they fail to obey certain rules, or things in life that they will reap the results of their actions. I wonder why we think it is someone else's fault when we as adults do the same? I think the scriptures tell us to "prove all things, hold fast to that which is good' Psalms 119 says "Thy Word have I hid in my heart that I might not sin against thee. That's how to obey God and when and if we do not do that then It's me O Lord........
One question? Why did it not occur to anyone to check the scriptures to see if what was being taught was in fact truth. If the earnest desire was and I believe it was to be obedient to God then why did people not do the one basic thing we heard from day one starting in PFAL The Word of God is the Will of God, I don't know of anyone that was around past a coffee break, that was not taught that to find out what God's Will was you needed to search and know the scriptures, that is how you find out "how to be obedient to God". How many gazillion times did we hear The Word of God is Our Only Rule for Faith and Practice. So why was it not? Was It Is Written just a slogan on the wall? Further when common sense caused a HUH? moment in our life, why were we to abandon years of teaching only to accept anything as truth?
Good question, Whitedove, even though the answer is probably one you've read many times here. So, I'll be brief. 2 Tim 2:15 was trumped by a misinterpretation of "private interpretation." That teaching made it so that the "Word" you were being taught was not the word of men, but the word of God and beyond reproach. This was shortly after the teaching of the integrity of "the Word." The teaching of the fall of man was in there as well. Eve considered, questioned, changed words etc. and that was wrong. All you had to do was buy into a handful of those original foundational teachings and critical thinking was out the window. Of course, in the process of learning this, questions were discouraged. You were to not question untill the end, because it was more likely that ALL your questions would be answered over the course of the class. All this crap was the real deal and the rest of the learn how to rightly divide the Bible yourself and discern truth from error was bs.
Sure this didn't work on some people. Some saw through it right away and never finished the class. As most of us know, though, many didn't and some still don't. There are plenty of people still in for the basic reason that Rascal explained here. Obey even if it is wrong, after all it is the best thing going. Then there are those that still believe VPW's recanned dogma. Go figure.
One question? Why did it not occur to anyone to check the scriptures to see if what was being taught was in fact truth
Every single person who stayed in TWI past graduating from PFAL failed in some measure to completely "check the scriptures".
PFAL, whatever truth may be imbedded in it, is full of private interpretation, made-up definitions of Greek words, shaky logic and outright falsehoods. If one "checked the scriptures" using Wierwille's assumptions and flawed methodology, then no real checking was being done.
If I teach that in the "original text" of the Constitution the word "President" was really "King" then all the "checking" in the world will still yield incorrect information if you do your research using my incorrect premises.
It reminds me of the Golden Rule. Who ever has the most gold…rules. With TWI, the gold is the word and VPW and his lieutenants controlled the word, so they ruled (mostly VPW). Gold is wealth and wealth gives you power. The wealth in TWI was based on how much word you knew. To gain this wealth you had to take all the classes, go WOW and go into the Way Corpse. All this based on the word that VPW controlled. He had ultimate control and power. The leaders used their wealth to control and manipulate people.
Don’t get me wrong there were some people who used their wealth to help and deliver people but the majority used it for control and power.
Every single person who stayed in TWI past graduating from PFAL failed in some measure to completely "check the scriptures".
Maybe so depending on your point of view. I'd make it simpler everyone has failed in some measure to completely "check the scriptures. Exactly so why is it anyone's fault but ours? So mistakes were made move on quit making everyone else responsible for our failure to do what we were taught. It's pretty simple I make mistakes every day but I wont blame someone else for my mistake. If they taught me wrongly that's their mistake to own not mine, I still have the choice to look for myself to see if what they said was in fact true.
QUOTE
So, I'll be brief. 2 Tim 2:15 was trumped by a misinterpretation of "private interpretation." That teaching made it so that the "Word" you were being taught was not the word of men, but the word of God and beyond reproach. This was shortly after the teaching of the integrity of "the Word." The teaching of the fall of man was in there as well. Eve considered, questioned, changed words etc. and that was wrong. All you had to do was buy into a handful of those original foundational teachings and critical thinking was out the window.
I must have missed that Lindy my Bible says "prove all things, hold fast to that which is good' Psalms 119 says "Thy Word have I hid in my heart that I might not sin against thee. that lined up with what I learned It Is Written. I finished the class, ran a few, was around for 18 years or so. It never occurred to me that my responsibility was to ignore scripture in favor of men's words.
QUOTE
Hmmm and that mitigates what we were taught in twi how? Sure we searched the scriptures.....
Well to start even if one ignored the scripture which you seem to indicate that we were forced to do. I would have pointed out the inconsistencies in Way doctrine and asked for a explanation of why they failed to teach the same and for some scriptural proof for their theory. Pretty simple Like this The founder/President/Teacher says the following you have said this the opposite I was wondering why you seem to think that? and can you show me some scriptural proof why that is you think this way. And is VPW aware that you have disputed his teaching cause I'd be interested to hear what he had to say about that.
Lots and lots of people questioned the scriptural accuracy of what was being taught and practised. In my opinion, it all boils down to what Lindyhopper cited. Once you bought into the lesson on how Eve was tricked and decided it wasn't going to happen to you, the ground was broken and the seed was sown for further indoctrination. This teaching was perhaps the most powerful segment of PFAL or any other class because it set the stage for allowing something bigger than yourself have the final say in the decisions and actions that followed. This segment holds the very essence of mind control and without it the rest of the class would have been like a Sunday School lesson.
Now add to that the concept that revelation can change to meet the immediate situation. And before someone says "chapter and verse, please." rest assured there were many,many scriptures given to supposedly support that stance.
Those two items in themselves explain a good deal of how controlling took place but now add these:
1)Leadership might be speaking what was given them by revelation
2)Disobedience to revelation spelled disaster(Lots of scriptures given on this one.)
3)The adversary was lying in wait to consume those who came into an understanding of "The Truth" and then reverted to their former ways
4)Disobedience to leadership was the same as being outside "The Hedge Of Protection"
So,why didn't someone simply find scriptural evidence of "wrong-doing"?
Because we were led to believe that doing so would be contrary to the spiritual insight we thought we were being shown.
Once you bought into the lesson on how Eve was tricked and decided it wasn't going to happen to you, the ground was broken and the seed was sown for further indoctrination.
This lesson dealt with questioning scripture,adding to, deleting from and so on. Not regarding teachings of men. We were always to "prove all things, hold fast to that which is good . A big difference between the two.
I think VP said it this way Right results, come from right believing, from right teaching, from right doctrine, from right Word.
But Dove, the founder/presedent/teacher DIDN`T teach just the opposite.
He was the one who taught it to the way corpes who then taught it to us.
He taught in varying degrees to the folks what he claimed that they could *handle* as the truth. The further up the way tree you climbed by way of classes, and programs, the more intense the doctrine.
You having not been past a tc, were not exposed to a lot of the more insidious doctrines...shrug that dosen`t negate that they were taught or that vpw wasn`t the source.
Evan says on the child abuse thread that he was. I know from others who were abused that the same lines were used on them.
Gosh, what it sounds like you are really doing, is trying to place the blame for the unconcionable abuse of people on those whom were mistreated, and for some unfathomable reason and justifying the people who inflicted the evil.
Well if you all weren`t just so damned stupid......
Dove this stuff came from the top, like it or not.
1)Leadership might be speaking what was given them by revelation
2)Disobedience to revelation spelled disaster Lots of scriptures given on this one.
I believe we were taught that revelation will never be at cross instruction of what the scriptures say. Excepting someone's word without checking the scriptures is unscriptural and I would not be afraid to call someone on it.
More specifically in the AC:
If your in a situation class where you don't know whether it's revelation or not check the Word Go back and check what? ( The Word) If what you think lines up with the Word, it's already what? (Revelation) It's so simple......VPW
But Dove, the founder/presedent/teacher DIDN`T teach just the opposite
Really? I think he taught The Word of God is the Will of God, It Is Written, and The Word of God is Our Only Rule for Faith and Practice. I don't ever recall hearing him say to except a man's words as truth. In fact a gazillion times I think he said don't believe it because I said it.
You having not been past a tc, were not exposed to a lot of the more insidious doctrines...shrug that dosen`t negate that they were taught or that vpw wasn`t the source.
Don't assume you know my background ,(you don't) what I did or what I know or don't . I'd be happy to discuss with you on what was taught anytime you like.
Gosh, what it sounds like you are really doing, is trying to place the blame for the unconcionable abuse of people on those whom were mistreated, and for some unfathomable reason and justifying the people who inflicted the evil.
Wrong again! what I said was we all as Christians have the responsibility to check the scriptures to see if what men teach us is truth or not. That is what I learned from VPW from PFAL on -It Is Written. If someone taught you wrong lessons that is their mistake to own...... If you failed to do as you or I should have done it is our mistake to own. Despite wrong teaching we could have done right had we done what we were instructed to do. That does not negate their seperate issue, but I have found it's best to start with your own mistakes own them before you rant about someone else's.
How many gazillion times did we hear The Word of God is Our Only Rule for Faith and Practice. So why was it not? Was It Is Written just a slogan on the wall? Further when common sense caused a HUH? moment in our life, why were we to abandon years of teaching only to accept anything as truth?
Hey, your right. Why didn't we just check da Verd and come up with the truth on our own. I mean it has worked for the rest of Christendom right? I might be wrong here, but the rest of them have come to a truthiness consensus. Right? No, no, I'm pretty sure I'm wrong on that one.
I believe we were taught that revelation will never be at cross instruction of what the scriptures say. Excepting someone's word without checking the scriptures is unscriptural and I would not be afraid to call someone on it.
I believe, you can look at da Verd in about a gazillion different ways. The revelation, or whatever it was, of "go abuse your kids" was backed by "spare the rod...", "train up your children in the way of the Lord..", and "children obey your parents in the Lord...". The spouse junk had it's own chapter and verse as did the "
King" having pick of the "virgins in his kingdom." They all had some "scripture" to back it up even if it wasn't real clear. If I only had a nickel for all the times I heard the apparent contradictions teachings. Anything that seemed contradictory obviously fell in the "in our understanding" category.
I must have missed that Lindy my Bible says "prove all things, hold fast to that which is good' Psalms 119 says "Thy Word have I hid in my heart that I might not sin against thee. that lined up with what I learned It Is Written.I finished the class, ran a few, was around for 18 years or so. It never occurred to me that my responsibility was to ignore scripture in favor of men's words.
Congratulations. Although, I don't really think that occurred to any of us. Yet, you hung around for 18 years. I don't know when or why you left, but if you stayed for that long you were like the rest of us and missed a lot of things.
Really? I think he taught The Word of God is the Will of God, It Is Written, and The Word of God is Our Only Rule for Faith and Practice. I don't ever recall hearing him say to except a man's words as truth. In fact a gazillion times I think he said don't believe it because I said it
Yet, he said, and LCM repeated over and over that "the Word is the Ministry and the Ministry is the Word."
There are no Way teachings on beating your child as others have attested to. If someone relayed that to you as scriptural they were wrong and it could have easily been seen from scripture. had someone bothered to check. I have never heard any such teaching personally in my years in the Way and I have heard a lot of if not most taught, plenty of teaching on spoons, more than I cared too. I have a stepson a third family Corps graduate mini Corps. I've walked the halls of Rome City and not seen any such action nor has my stepson. Yes I've seen people correct their or someone else's kids wrongly. We all have different standards for how we raise our children even outside the way that's true Lindy. What someone else may allow another may not and I'm sure at times it was confusing. Having that many people correct kids was a recipe for chaos to me. I have always believed and advocated that was the parents job, except in the case of emergencies where a decision needed to be made before someone was injured. Were there some crazy people in the way You bet! with hundreds of thousands of people involved you get all kinds. But it is that way out here also I had a abusive teacher in my first grade but it was not the schools teaching it was a crazy person that was a teacher. I'm sure especially in the later years that their were some nut jobs around. And if not the stress probably produced some. I'm sorry if no one spoke up for you but they could have and should have gone to the scripture where there is no encouragement to beat your children.
Advanced Class 1973--------Vpw declares there are various levels of spiritual understanding with which "The Word" can be received and understood.
1)Milk------ For new babes not yet ready for "heavy" spiritual truth
2)Meat -------For those who have reached a level that deems them worthy of bigger spiritual truths.
Christian Family and Sex--------Approx. same time. Vpw,in discussing the "Original Sin", declares"I have no scriptural proof for this but you will have to trust that this is what God has shown me" He then proceeds to describe how Adam masturbated and both he and Eve consumed the "fruit". I heard this teaching many times when I was the designated "instructor".
No scriptural proof and yet we bought it . Why? We didn't want to be seen as babes only worthy of milk and don't forget what led to Eves' deception.
As for pointing out that it has no scriptural basis: Try that one in Fellowlaborers. Be sure to set your alarm clock for 4 a.m. because that's about the time you will be awakened and informed that the MOG has received revelation that you are to leave the program immediately and never set foot in the state again."Thus saith the Lord." If you don't think these things happened I am quite sure there are some here who could verify.(not that I am volunteering their statements)
Why, when someone points out how TWI leaders abused their trust in some manner, others pop up with variations on "Who forced you to do it?" and "Why didn't you check the scriptures?"?
Yeah, yeah, yeah, we get it, we are all responsible for what we let people do to us, we are all responsible for not "checking the scripture". The point, however, is that TWI and its leaders abused their trust, and took advantage of people who bought into their lies. What? Is this some kind of spiritual caveat emptor? You deserve whatever you got, because you didn't read Consumer Reports' cult edition?
I have no desire to get into a banter, but do want to add to Rascal's original post.
I was thinking about this subject this morning in regards to being in fellowship with God.
I would consistently wonder about my "state" if/when in my heart/mind I disagreed with leadership, especially clergy. If I wasn't in agreement, my thinking must be screwed up....I must be the problem. I wasn't real adept at voicing a disagreement. Guess I was scared, doubtful, wanting to be accepted, weak, whatever. I prefer to think that I loved God and wanted to do right.
The scripture about the ministry not be blamed was a "biggie" for me. Also the one in Philemon about Philemon doing more than Paul said which was taught (if I recollect correctly) that a request was equivalent to a command. Oh...the account of David's mighty men getting David water when David stated he was thirsty is another one.
If I did less than these, my heart wasn't committed enough. Was that taught vebatim? I don't think so....but I do think it was implied.
Yeah...those are a few that come to mind in regard to this for me. If I did less than the "best," I wasn't good enough. Had to keep working, ya' know....so I could stay in God's good graces. GGGRRRRRR (Sorry...don't mean to derail the topic here.)
Emotional manipulation was at work. Was I prone to such? Obviously. I don't consider myself "forced", but do see myself manipulated. Am I responsible for my actions/inactions? Yes.
I recently wrote Bagpipes with just what I decided to write here just now ....
---------------------
Rascal posted on GreaseSpot the following:
Parents reported being told by Mi-cha- F--t to beat their kids with a 2x4 and if that didn`t work to leave them in the woods for God`s sake.
My God, did he REALLY say that? Of course, he did ... but it so saddens me that the man who was so loving, so supportive, to me in particular and to us interim Corps in 1984-85 could have "fallen" so far from walking practically in the grace of God ... Every once in a while I think there is nothing else that can surprise me about what people I know and loved from TWI would do and then WHAM! another reality check.
---------------------
Okay, back to the present: Whenever I read something on GreaseSpot and someone asks, "But how could that happen?" or "Why did we let it happen?" I always remind myself, "One step at a time ... we let it happen one step at a time." I am reminded of something my sister mentioned after seeing the Holocaust Museum for the first time ... about how the first signs of what became the holocaust were simple, no one complained, every one went along with it out of fear, etc., and then by the time it WAS a holocaust, it was a major disaster that caused many folks their lives ... and so, I believe, is what happened in TWI ... I was in 23.5 years (I remember hearing the "man of God" speech as early as 1974 -- do as he says do and you will be blessed, even if he is wrong) ... we accepted (yes, were pressured into accepting) each lie, one at a time, until the pile of lies and wrongly divided Word were overwhelming. In looking back, I have oft wondered WHY I put up with that, and I think it comes back down to several things, at least for me: (1) I was young and foolish and afraid to stand up for myself because these people were "older and wiser": (2) I wanted to do God's Will and these folks had shown me in other teachings the greatness of understanding the Bible, so I took the trust they had earned from that and transferred it into trusting them about things that were not biblical. There are other reasons, but those are the two that stand out for me ... that's how I fell for the lies, one step at a time.
The scripture about the ministry not be blamed was a "biggie" for me. Also the one in Philemon about Philemon doing more than Paul said which was taught (if I recollect correctly) that a request was equivalent to a command. Oh...the account of David's mighty men getting David water when David stated he was thirsty is another one.
If I did less than these, my heart wasn't committed enough. Was that taught vebatim? I don't think so....but I do think it was implied.
I think that was taught verbatim, actually. every believer great and small was pretty much commanded to watch for every little wish or desire of a MOG and do whatever they could to fulfill it or they weren't committed. it was so much that the little requests or musings for this or that were commandments from the MOG, but that since God worked in the MOG, God himself was speaking (and therefore commanding) and let them who have ears, hear.
Dove, you cannot change what was taught or done to us in God`s name.
It was dead wrong and it was sanctioned and taught from the very top.
Your one time stroll through Rome city halls does not make you an authority on what was taught and what was inflicted on the participants of the family corpes program.
The accounts of abuse and cruelty, related by the mini corpes survivors, as well as the parents that were there in the child abuse thread attest to the truthfullness of their accounts.
I can attest to the truthfullness of the teachings mentioned above being the s.o.p. used to force women into abortions.
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rascal
I shouldn`t have said *we* allowed....
There were many who were couragious enough to stand up for yourselves and your families against leadership.
Some of you already knew God intimately enough to know that he would never ever require that of us.
Some of you behaved with honor in spite of what we were taught.
I admire all of you who stood up for principle, consequences be damned.
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rascal
This doctrine was in place as early as 1979.
Our limb leader Jo-- S---- at our first wow meeting taught this in relation to peter.
He pointed out how Peter listened to his leader and obeyed, and BECAUSE he obeyed, he got to walk on water.
If we wanted a miracle in our lives, if WE wanted to walk on water, we must be carefull to obey immediately in order to recieve that blessing.
He then pointed out that when Peter looked around at the wind and waves...the *circumstances* started allowing his 5 senses to influence him.... he sank.
We therefor must obey our leaders, ignoring what ever our five senses tell us, what ever common sense might dictate and just trust our leaders like Peter did.
And besides, even IF per chance our leader was wrong, why God would HAVE to honor our hearts and commitment anyway.
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rascal
I think in hind sight that this was the foundational teaching that the others false teachings giving the bullies power were built upon.
God can only speak to you through your leader, God can only speak to the wife through the husband after marriage....(What the crap was THAT all about?? like some kind of switch is thrown and no more spiritual connection??)
God can only work for the kids through the parents/father head of the household.
The teachings were the weapons held to our heads, the scriptures, the ammunition in the weapons, to force people to do/ ignore/endure unconscionable treatment.
To this day it is difficult to hear scripture quoted without my hackles raising up in suspicion.
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WhiteDove
One question? Why did it not occur to anyone to check the scriptures to see if what was being taught was in fact truth. If the earnest desire was and I believe it was to be obedient to God then why did people not do the one basic thing we heard from day one starting in PFAL The Word of God is the Will of God, I don't know of anyone that was around past a coffee break, that was not taught that to find out what God's Will was you needed to search and know the scriptures, that is how you find out "how to be obedient to God". How many gazillion times did we hear The Word of God is Our Only Rule for Faith and Practice. So why was it not? Was It Is Written just a slogan on the wall? Further when common sense caused a HUH? moment in our life, why were we to abandon years of teaching only to accept anything as truth?
And even if one failed to search the scriptures as we knew to do then why at least were not the doctrines questioned in contrast to teaching received. Like this one.
God gave his Word, in the written form, the reason being that He might interpret Himself and His will to us and for us. The Word of God is the Will of God, and no man or woman can really know the Will of God, without knowing the Word of God. To know God's Word you can not go by tradition, you can not go by the history of so called Christendom, you have to go back to the integrity of the Word. You can not go by what men say, by what theologians say, by what clergy or by what anyone else may say, you have to come back to the Word of God VPW
We teach our children that if they fail to obey certain rules, or things in life that they will reap the results of their actions. I wonder why we think it is someone else's fault when we as adults do the same? I think the scriptures tell us to "prove all things, hold fast to that which is good' Psalms 119 says "Thy Word have I hid in my heart that I might not sin against thee. That's how to obey God and when and if we do not do that then It's me O Lord........
spelling edit
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rascal
Hmmm and that mitigates what we were taught in twi how? Sure we searched the scriptures.....
Scriptures were used to back up every single teaching I mentioned shrug. I though that was what gave twi leaders the authority.
It never occured to me to doubt the authenticity or motives of the men whom claimed to be ministers for God...shrug
Chalk it up to being young, gullible, and stupid. I suppose in their subtlety lies the success of false prophets, the wolves in sheep`s clothing.
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lindyhopper
Good question, Whitedove, even though the answer is probably one you've read many times here. So, I'll be brief. 2 Tim 2:15 was trumped by a misinterpretation of "private interpretation." That teaching made it so that the "Word" you were being taught was not the word of men, but the word of God and beyond reproach. This was shortly after the teaching of the integrity of "the Word." The teaching of the fall of man was in there as well. Eve considered, questioned, changed words etc. and that was wrong. All you had to do was buy into a handful of those original foundational teachings and critical thinking was out the window. Of course, in the process of learning this, questions were discouraged. You were to not question untill the end, because it was more likely that ALL your questions would be answered over the course of the class. All this crap was the real deal and the rest of the learn how to rightly divide the Bible yourself and discern truth from error was bs.
Sure this didn't work on some people. Some saw through it right away and never finished the class. As most of us know, though, many didn't and some still don't. There are plenty of people still in for the basic reason that Rascal explained here. Obey even if it is wrong, after all it is the best thing going. Then there are those that still believe VPW's recanned dogma. Go figure.
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Oakspear
PFAL, whatever truth may be imbedded in it, is full of private interpretation, made-up definitions of Greek words, shaky logic and outright falsehoods. If one "checked the scriptures" using Wierwille's assumptions and flawed methodology, then no real checking was being done.
If I teach that in the "original text" of the Constitution the word "President" was really "King" then all the "checking" in the world will still yield incorrect information if you do your research using my incorrect premises.
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MountainTopCO
It reminds me of the Golden Rule. Who ever has the most gold…rules. With TWI, the gold is the word and VPW and his lieutenants controlled the word, so they ruled (mostly VPW). Gold is wealth and wealth gives you power. The wealth in TWI was based on how much word you knew. To gain this wealth you had to take all the classes, go WOW and go into the Way Corpse. All this based on the word that VPW controlled. He had ultimate control and power. The leaders used their wealth to control and manipulate people.
Don’t get me wrong there were some people who used their wealth to help and deliver people but the majority used it for control and power.
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WhiteDove
QUOTE
Every single person who stayed in TWI past graduating from PFAL failed in some measure to completely "check the scriptures".
Maybe so depending on your point of view. I'd make it simpler everyone has failed in some measure to completely "check the scriptures. Exactly so why is it anyone's fault but ours? So mistakes were made move on quit making everyone else responsible for our failure to do what we were taught. It's pretty simple I make mistakes every day but I wont blame someone else for my mistake. If they taught me wrongly that's their mistake to own not mine, I still have the choice to look for myself to see if what they said was in fact true.
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So, I'll be brief. 2 Tim 2:15 was trumped by a misinterpretation of "private interpretation." That teaching made it so that the "Word" you were being taught was not the word of men, but the word of God and beyond reproach. This was shortly after the teaching of the integrity of "the Word." The teaching of the fall of man was in there as well. Eve considered, questioned, changed words etc. and that was wrong. All you had to do was buy into a handful of those original foundational teachings and critical thinking was out the window.
I must have missed that Lindy my Bible says "prove all things, hold fast to that which is good' Psalms 119 says "Thy Word have I hid in my heart that I might not sin against thee. that lined up with what I learned It Is Written. I finished the class, ran a few, was around for 18 years or so. It never occurred to me that my responsibility was to ignore scripture in favor of men's words.
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Hmmm and that mitigates what we were taught in twi how? Sure we searched the scriptures.....
Well to start even if one ignored the scripture which you seem to indicate that we were forced to do. I would have pointed out the inconsistencies in Way doctrine and asked for a explanation of why they failed to teach the same and for some scriptural proof for their theory. Pretty simple Like this The founder/President/Teacher says the following you have said this the opposite I was wondering why you seem to think that? and can you show me some scriptural proof why that is you think this way. And is VPW aware that you have disputed his teaching cause I'd be interested to hear what he had to say about that.
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waysider
Lots and lots of people questioned the scriptural accuracy of what was being taught and practised. In my opinion, it all boils down to what Lindyhopper cited. Once you bought into the lesson on how Eve was tricked and decided it wasn't going to happen to you, the ground was broken and the seed was sown for further indoctrination. This teaching was perhaps the most powerful segment of PFAL or any other class because it set the stage for allowing something bigger than yourself have the final say in the decisions and actions that followed. This segment holds the very essence of mind control and without it the rest of the class would have been like a Sunday School lesson.
Now add to that the concept that revelation can change to meet the immediate situation. And before someone says "chapter and verse, please." rest assured there were many,many scriptures given to supposedly support that stance.
Those two items in themselves explain a good deal of how controlling took place but now add these:
1)Leadership might be speaking what was given them by revelation
2)Disobedience to revelation spelled disaster(Lots of scriptures given on this one.)
3)The adversary was lying in wait to consume those who came into an understanding of "The Truth" and then reverted to their former ways
4)Disobedience to leadership was the same as being outside "The Hedge Of Protection"
So,why didn't someone simply find scriptural evidence of "wrong-doing"?
Because we were led to believe that doing so would be contrary to the spiritual insight we thought we were being shown.
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WhiteDove
This lesson dealt with questioning scripture,adding to, deleting from and so on. Not regarding teachings of men. We were always to "prove all things, hold fast to that which is good . A big difference between the two.
I think VP said it this way Right results, come from right believing, from right teaching, from right doctrine, from right Word.
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rascal
But Dove, the founder/presedent/teacher DIDN`T teach just the opposite.
He was the one who taught it to the way corpes who then taught it to us.
He taught in varying degrees to the folks what he claimed that they could *handle* as the truth. The further up the way tree you climbed by way of classes, and programs, the more intense the doctrine.
You having not been past a tc, were not exposed to a lot of the more insidious doctrines...shrug that dosen`t negate that they were taught or that vpw wasn`t the source.
Evan says on the child abuse thread that he was. I know from others who were abused that the same lines were used on them.
Gosh, what it sounds like you are really doing, is trying to place the blame for the unconcionable abuse of people on those whom were mistreated, and for some unfathomable reason and justifying the people who inflicted the evil.
Well if you all weren`t just so damned stupid......
Dove this stuff came from the top, like it or not.
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WhiteDove
I believe we were taught that revelation will never be at cross instruction of what the scriptures say. Excepting someone's word without checking the scriptures is unscriptural and I would not be afraid to call someone on it.
More specifically in the AC:
If your in a situation class where you don't know whether it's revelation or not check the Word Go back and check what? ( The Word) If what you think lines up with the Word, it's already what? (Revelation) It's so simple......VPW
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WhiteDove
Don't assume you know my background ,(you don't) what I did or what I know or don't . I'd be happy to discuss with you on what was taught anytime you like.
Wrong again! what I said was we all as Christians have the responsibility to check the scriptures to see if what men teach us is truth or not. That is what I learned from VPW from PFAL on -It Is Written. If someone taught you wrong lessons that is their mistake to own...... If you failed to do as you or I should have done it is our mistake to own. Despite wrong teaching we could have done right had we done what we were instructed to do. That does not negate their seperate issue, but I have found it's best to start with your own mistakes own them before you rant about someone else's.
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lindyhopper
I believe, you can look at da Verd in about a gazillion different ways. The revelation, or whatever it was, of "go abuse your kids" was backed by "spare the rod...", "train up your children in the way of the Lord..", and "children obey your parents in the Lord...". The spouse junk had it's own chapter and verse as did the "
King" having pick of the "virgins in his kingdom." They all had some "scripture" to back it up even if it wasn't real clear. If I only had a nickel for all the times I heard the apparent contradictions teachings. Anything that seemed contradictory obviously fell in the "in our understanding" category.
Congratulations. Although, I don't really think that occurred to any of us. Yet, you hung around for 18 years. I don't know when or why you left, but if you stayed for that long you were like the rest of us and missed a lot of things.Yet, he said, and LCM repeated over and over that "the Word is the Ministry and the Ministry is the Word."
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WhiteDove
There are no Way teachings on beating your child as others have attested to. If someone relayed that to you as scriptural they were wrong and it could have easily been seen from scripture. had someone bothered to check. I have never heard any such teaching personally in my years in the Way and I have heard a lot of if not most taught, plenty of teaching on spoons, more than I cared too. I have a stepson a third family Corps graduate mini Corps. I've walked the halls of Rome City and not seen any such action nor has my stepson. Yes I've seen people correct their or someone else's kids wrongly. We all have different standards for how we raise our children even outside the way that's true Lindy. What someone else may allow another may not and I'm sure at times it was confusing. Having that many people correct kids was a recipe for chaos to me. I have always believed and advocated that was the parents job, except in the case of emergencies where a decision needed to be made before someone was injured. Were there some crazy people in the way You bet! with hundreds of thousands of people involved you get all kinds. But it is that way out here also I had a abusive teacher in my first grade but it was not the schools teaching it was a crazy person that was a teacher. I'm sure especially in the later years that their were some nut jobs around. And if not the stress probably produced some. I'm sorry if no one spoke up for you but they could have and should have gone to the scripture where there is no encouragement to beat your children.
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waysider
Advanced Class 1973--------Vpw declares there are various levels of spiritual understanding with which "The Word" can be received and understood.
1)Milk------ For new babes not yet ready for "heavy" spiritual truth
2)Meat -------For those who have reached a level that deems them worthy of bigger spiritual truths.
Christian Family and Sex--------Approx. same time. Vpw,in discussing the "Original Sin", declares"I have no scriptural proof for this but you will have to trust that this is what God has shown me" He then proceeds to describe how Adam masturbated and both he and Eve consumed the "fruit". I heard this teaching many times when I was the designated "instructor".
No scriptural proof and yet we bought it . Why? We didn't want to be seen as babes only worthy of milk and don't forget what led to Eves' deception.
As for pointing out that it has no scriptural basis: Try that one in Fellowlaborers. Be sure to set your alarm clock for 4 a.m. because that's about the time you will be awakened and informed that the MOG has received revelation that you are to leave the program immediately and never set foot in the state again."Thus saith the Lord." If you don't think these things happened I am quite sure there are some here who could verify.(not that I am volunteering their statements)
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Oakspear
Why, when someone points out how TWI leaders abused their trust in some manner, others pop up with variations on "Who forced you to do it?" and "Why didn't you check the scriptures?"?
Yeah, yeah, yeah, we get it, we are all responsible for what we let people do to us, we are all responsible for not "checking the scripture". The point, however, is that TWI and its leaders abused their trust, and took advantage of people who bought into their lies. What? Is this some kind of spiritual caveat emptor? You deserve whatever you got, because you didn't read Consumer Reports' cult edition?
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I Love Bagpipes
I have no desire to get into a banter, but do want to add to Rascal's original post.
I was thinking about this subject this morning in regards to being in fellowship with God.
I would consistently wonder about my "state" if/when in my heart/mind I disagreed with leadership, especially clergy. If I wasn't in agreement, my thinking must be screwed up....I must be the problem. I wasn't real adept at voicing a disagreement. Guess I was scared, doubtful, wanting to be accepted, weak, whatever. I prefer to think that I loved God and wanted to do right.
The scripture about the ministry not be blamed was a "biggie" for me. Also the one in Philemon about Philemon doing more than Paul said which was taught (if I recollect correctly) that a request was equivalent to a command. Oh...the account of David's mighty men getting David water when David stated he was thirsty is another one.
If I did less than these, my heart wasn't committed enough. Was that taught vebatim? I don't think so....but I do think it was implied.
Yeah...those are a few that come to mind in regard to this for me. If I did less than the "best," I wasn't good enough. Had to keep working, ya' know....so I could stay in God's good graces. GGGRRRRRR
(Sorry...don't mean to derail the topic here.)
Emotional manipulation was at work. Was I prone to such? Obviously. I don't consider myself "forced", but do see myself manipulated. Am I responsible for my actions/inactions? Yes.
Do I get confused about it? Yes.
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waysider
Piper-------Not a derail by any stretch. It sounds like you are starting to see what was really going on.
You wanted to be your best for God. You saw it as a strength. They saw it as a vulnerability(IMO).
If God really does look on the heart, I think you may be ahead in that race.(by several lengths)
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DogLover
I recently wrote Bagpipes with just what I decided to write here just now ....
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Rascal posted on GreaseSpot the following:
Parents reported being told by Mi-cha- F--t to beat their kids with a 2x4 and if that didn`t work to leave them in the woods for God`s sake.
My God, did he REALLY say that? Of course, he did ... but it so saddens me that the man who was so loving, so supportive, to me in particular and to us interim Corps in 1984-85 could have "fallen" so far from walking practically in the grace of God ... Every once in a while I think there is nothing else that can surprise me about what people I know and loved from TWI would do and then WHAM! another reality check.
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Okay, back to the present: Whenever I read something on GreaseSpot and someone asks, "But how could that happen?" or "Why did we let it happen?" I always remind myself, "One step at a time ... we let it happen one step at a time." I am reminded of something my sister mentioned after seeing the Holocaust Museum for the first time ... about how the first signs of what became the holocaust were simple, no one complained, every one went along with it out of fear, etc., and then by the time it WAS a holocaust, it was a major disaster that caused many folks their lives ... and so, I believe, is what happened in TWI ... I was in 23.5 years (I remember hearing the "man of God" speech as early as 1974 -- do as he says do and you will be blessed, even if he is wrong) ... we accepted (yes, were pressured into accepting) each lie, one at a time, until the pile of lies and wrongly divided Word were overwhelming. In looking back, I have oft wondered WHY I put up with that, and I think it comes back down to several things, at least for me: (1) I was young and foolish and afraid to stand up for myself because these people were "older and wiser": (2) I wanted to do God's Will and these folks had shown me in other teachings the greatness of understanding the Bible, so I took the trust they had earned from that and transferred it into trusting them about things that were not biblical. There are other reasons, but those are the two that stand out for me ... that's how I fell for the lies, one step at a time.
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rascal
That was it Dog Lover and Pipes, we were vulnerable because we loved God.
We allowed evil to succede one step at a time.
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potato
I think that was taught verbatim, actually. every believer great and small was pretty much commanded to watch for every little wish or desire of a MOG and do whatever they could to fulfill it or they weren't committed. it was so much that the little requests or musings for this or that were commandments from the MOG, but that since God worked in the MOG, God himself was speaking (and therefore commanding) and let them who have ears, hear.
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rascal
Dove, you cannot change what was taught or done to us in God`s name.
It was dead wrong and it was sanctioned and taught from the very top.
Your one time stroll through Rome city halls does not make you an authority on what was taught and what was inflicted on the participants of the family corpes program.
The accounts of abuse and cruelty, related by the mini corpes survivors, as well as the parents that were there in the child abuse thread attest to the truthfullness of their accounts.
I can attest to the truthfullness of the teachings mentioned above being the s.o.p. used to force women into abortions.
It was a horrible misuse of scriptures.
EXACTLY Potato!
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