My aunt was involved in some aspects of Native American religions, but I'm not sure which ones. I've had an Osage student who is a very religious person, and completely devoted to their religion, but they're also Christians. I've also heard from an extremely reliable witness (my completely skeptical sister) of one incident when a Native American shaman affected the weather quite forcefully (on a dead-calm day, caused a very strong wind at the moment he lifted his arms, which stopped the moment he lowered his arms, while he was giving the eulogy at another Shaman's funeral service). These people are not kidding; they really do have a connection to the natural realm that the rest of us just don't "get."
My take on it is that the religion is heavily involved with being peaceful and listening. Listening to the natural universe, and what it's trying to tell us, and listening to the spirit guides. If your brother was that incensed, I don't think that it came from the purity of the Native American religions. Could it be that he has such strong feelings because he feels guilt over the way 31/32's of his heritage treated the other 1/32?
My advice would be to let things calm down before you try to discuss this with him. Let him know that you love him. Ask him to sit with you and explain his beliefs to you. Have a quiet conversation with him, and really listen. This doesn't mean that you have to agree, but you don't have to shove disagreement at him, either. Just let him know that you care to know and understand what he believes, because you care about him. You aren't going to change his beliefs; don't try. Just let him know that you're interested in hearing his views because he is very important to you. Give his beliefs respect. If he changes what he believes later, or if he doesn't, that has to be only his decision. Your goal, as I believe I read in your post, is not to lose your brother. Since he got so angry with you, he could be harboring a real or a perceived hurt that you gave him during your experiences in the ministry (notice I said "may"; I have no idea if you ever came off as conceited and spiritually arrogant to your family; I just know that that's how I occasionally treated MY natural family). You may (or may not; I don't know you) have apologies of your own to make, that have been years in the coming. If so, that could be a good beginning to your conversation with your brother.
There's not much in the world of competing religions that's worth losing a brother over. Let him know that you love him. He will probably come around to apologizing for sniping at you and your wife like that. May take a few decades. Don't ask me how I know!
I don't know too much about it johniam... but I'm of a mind to give folks who want to follow those beliefs the same lattitude I'd like for mine... I know sometimes that dealing with siblings is a little tough, but why not use the incident as an open door to ask him what he believes? ...is there a possibility that two adult men who are pretty set in their beliefs can have a discussion about them?
Perhaps there was something, at that moment, that really sparked him? ...and now, given a little time has passed, you can broach the subject with him of the 'outburst' and then ask him about his beliefs?
That's just my suggestion... because I think there are as many 'factions' of Indian Spirituality as there are of Christendom... and to find out what's on his mind, in his heart... I'd ask him... If you fell like you can...
Johniam, I have some family who are heavily involved with shamans and believe in spirit guides, animal totems, etc. They are extremely peaceful loving people and from what I do know about their beliefs they don't believe in any sort of violence or "negative energy" coming from them and words carry energy, so ugly outbursts like that would be a concern for the rest of their spiritual family.
Mind you, they wouldn't condemn or be mad at your brother, but rather concerned about where that much "negative energy" came from and how to best help him heal. They believe in acknowledging these kinds of emotions and learning from them rather than acting on them, especially not to the point of affecting others or putting that kind of negative energy "out" into the world.
It sounds like something is bugging your brother pretty deeply to have reacted the way he did. Especially given his lack of such forceful expression about it before. Was he maybe just having a really, really bad day or week? Problems going on that are in no way related to the question, but that was the easiest, most convenient excuse for him to release all that pent up emotion?
I'd be more than happy to put you in touch with someone who practices that type of belief system as they would be a much better information source than I. PM me if you'd like. :)
Johniam, I can tell you a little bit about the spiritual belief system of the Tsalagi (Cherokee) nation, and I work with women from the Ojibwa (Chippewa) nation, so if you want, I could ask them about their spiritual culture. But with your brother living in Phoenix, I doubt if any information I could give you would help. Like Abigail said, different nations had different beliefs.
I would be very concerned about the anger he displayed toward your wife if this is uncharacteristic of him. Are you close to your sister-in-law? Would she tell you if things are well with him, or if things are getting out of hand? Or if she feels there is any cause for concern?
Thank you for all your replies. My brother has shown me many kindnesses over the years. One time I climbed up a tree. When tree forts were built, they would nail pieces of wood 1" by 2" by 8" every foot or so up the tree to the fort. I was climbing one and I grabbed a piece of wood and it wasn't secure and I fell 12 feet on my back. I remember my bro running full speed to make sure I was all right...I was. He took me out picking berries, climbing trees, etc. I love the guy. I don't ever expect to convert him to my particular belief system, but he crossed the line.
quote: I would be very concerned about the anger he displayed toward your wife if this is uncharacteristic of him.
Yes, it WAS uncharacteristic of him. There was a desperate quality about him. I feel like God is telling me to not over react to him though.
quote: And that's really only one story, mostly of ONE nation-the Cherokee.
Interestingly, THAT'S the tribe I'm told our ancestry is from.
Perhaps there was something, at that moment, that really sparked him? ...and now, given a little time has passed, you can broach the subject with him of the 'outburst' and then ask him about his beliefs?
That's just my suggestion... because I think there are as many 'factions' of Indian Spirituality as there are of Christendom... and to find out what's on his mind, in his heart... I'd ask him... If you fell like you can...
since it was so "uncharacteristic" of him johniam... maybe there was something else to it? talk to him, reach out to him, as your brother because you care about him, because you care about your (and your wife's) relationship with him...
you say "he crossed the line", maybe he recognizes that... maybe he doesn't, but he is your brother... it might not have anything at all to do with "his native american beliefs"...
quote: Personally, I wouldn't want to dismiss the spiritual beliefs of the Native Americans out of hand...
I have studied some of their beliefs and read accounts of many of their experiences...and I think that God worked in the hearts of these people.
Do I believe everything that they propound?...no. But I also question many things that are supposedly "Christian".
I suppose a common respect for another's beliefs would be appropriate.
They believe in the "Great Spirit"...I would give him his space in his endeavor to experience his own spirituality...
Interestingly, the very day the incident happened, we all saw a presentation with NAs which included dancing chanting and semi worship. The speaker did refer to a "supreme spirit". Those weren't his exact words, but they were along those lines.
My brother didn't give me any space at all. He said I was egotistical for referring to God as 'he', or 'Father'. WTF??? I'm trying to use the Galatians 6:1 litmus test here (if you see a brother overtaken in a fault, consider yourself lest you be tempted). I know that's talking about a spiritual brother, not flesh, but that's as good an example as I can think of giving someone their space. I know that while in TWI, I witnessed to many people and I'm sure I came off to some as overbearing, and those were total strangers. So I'm willing to give him that space. Besides, he lives 1500 miles away from me; I don't have to see him at all.
If my wife can't casually ask him if he's seen a certain movie without him flying into a rage, I'm surprised he ever goes out in public. I've wanted to discuss this with SOMEONE for quite awhile. I considered my sisters, but there's that thing where if you have a problem with someone you're supposed to discuss it with HIM FIRST, not others. I saw GSC as an impartial 3rd party. Actually, you guys have been nicer to me about this than I thought you'd be.
He has made no effort to contact me so right now it's a stalemate. He could very well think I owe HIM an apology. I guess I'm not unwilling to break the ice and send him an email, but I'm not going to apologize until he hears my pov and some dialogue ensues. He really wasn't capable of listening to us on the night in question. Glad my kids weren't there to see it.
Once again, thank you all for your candid input. I don't often request this from GSC and I really do appreciate all your words.
Just a thought...if he's "new" in this belief system...his zeal and intolerance may not represent the attitudes of folks who have embraced this belief system for a longer period of time...just remembering how many of us were when we first got into twi...
If it were me, I would consider throwing out an "olive branch" of tolerance and patience...as a mature Christian (which I believe you are :) ), let him know that you respect his right to make his own choices and simply be loving towards him...I think I would try to avoid confrontation and look for common ground...
Have you ever read "Grandfather" by Tom Brown?...it's a great book demonstrating Native American spiritual beliefs...I gained a greater appreciation of their beliefs when I read that book...
Recently a good friend of mine died at age 64. I had meant to call him and go visit him, as he'd asked me to. Now I can never go back and undo that ommission. God forbid that anything should happen to your brother, but the worst regrets, IMO, are for things we should have done and didn't.
Not trying to be melodramatic here, but life really is too short. It sounds like you really love your brother. I hope you won't let pride or stubbornness stand in your way of what's in your heart to do (or you wouldn't have asked).
Although there is no evidence that Morrison's belief had any direct relation to his death, there is definite evidence that these beliefs drove him to act the way he did socially.
Morrison ate to much. He drank to much. There were drugs also. He did see dead bodies at a young age. His father told him it was just a dream. Morrison did not know how to deal with reality. I will never believe that Native American beliefs drove him to act the way he did socially. I don't believe a Shaman spirit entered his body. I believe this was a fantasy of his. His life and his issues had nothing to do with Native American beliefs. Native American beliefs are not what drove your brother to act as he did either.
The adult Morrison was a drunk who made his fortune in music. He could have read the bible and handed out tracts onstage and he still would have probably yanked his wanker out for an encore. He fancied himself a poet and his band a creative force. Taken at it's parts there are good qualities but as a band - phhffft. "Riders on the Storm" captures his state of mind pretty well I think.
To me it's not the beliefs that are scarey, it's the people that believe them and what they do with them. Beliefs and ideas don't do anything in and of themselves, regardless of what they are. When we step in - look at Morrison. A bull in a china shop of ideas with no idea whatsoever what to do or how to get out, although that took care of itself in the end. Such is life, and he proves there are limits to what it will endure. No secret there.
The workman selects his tools for the work he finds to do. Your brother's state of mind reflects itself in what he does, johniam. Whether you can interact in a meaningful way with him might take time. Today, nothing. Tomorrow, nothing. Next month - something. It may be you help direct him to people or places that will help.
In the end though I think family is one of the central themes of our lives, good or bad. Your concern shows that. :) When he might feel that no one else is there, you are. That's a lot, although we don't appreciate it sometimes until it's the only thing left standing.
Living around quite a few Native Americans in New Mexico like I do, I think
1. the perceptions are extremely over generalized.
Furthermore, there are a thousand seperate beliefs even within reated tribal and pueblo families of native americans, and just as many languages.
I have a very good Navajo friend who is a Speech Pathologist that came from reservation near Phoenix. To this day she finds it extremely hard to see Turtles on the menu in a restaurant in the south especially in New Orleans. Reptile spirits are part of her belief system.
I think the question is that maybe both you and your brother have to learn to transcend these differences and openly discuss what is common ground. If you cannot find common ground, then a mutual respect for your differences without addressing them maybe the only thing you can hold onto. Or not....
I am a Jesus is my saviour christian, but I am friends with all kinds of people with varied belief systems---especially here in Albuquerque. Buddhists, NA, New Agers.
It also seems to me that he is not your "average" (and I say that ith hesitation-as no one is averge) native american, but someone holding on to something with a rope of insecurity.
I think judgment has to be suspended when lives are not threatened. You will never win someone to Christ by judging them frankly.
I have found when there are differences, in families we say the meanest things --more mean than when we speak even in a disagreement with close friends.
So how will you both forgive eachother? Sounds like you both are responsible ultimately. Tell him you are old man coyote..and dont always think about things...look it up first though.
I echo the advice of many here when it comes to your brother -- love him, try to understand what he is looking for, and let him be himself. Somehow, this is scratching an itch for him - he has a need for whatever it is that this is providing for him. Perhaps it's a "phase" - or perhaps it's more - but graciously allow him to pursue it. He will appreciate you for that.
I can speak about Morrison's ideals when it came to Native American culture. I have studied his writings and his life. He was very well read and especially loved the classics and mythology. He dabbled in different aspects of spiritualizm, including Wiccan and the beliefs/practices of the Native Americans. Supposedly he wed Pamela Morrison (she assumed his name - there was not a civil ceremony or marriage license issued) via a Wiccan wedding.
Morrison was heavily into drugs and alcohol. He was known to take peyote and go into the desert for a shaman experience. He'd mix it up with LSD, PCP, and about anything else you can imagine, but he did have a phobia of needles which kept him away from heroine in it's most popular form. He was a brilliant, tragic person - I highly suspect he was bipolar, by today's standards, and used the chemicals I mentioned to feed or manage his demons, as he felt fit. That being said - his death was accidental, by many accounts. I do not believe it tied in with his beliefs, in any way, with the Native American culture he embraced. If you read interviews just before he died - and I think one was done just a couple of days before - Morrison was in a good place, mentally. I think an autopsy would have revealed either an overdose or a heart that said "no more!" - he had abused himself too long, at just 27 years old - he looked like he was in his early 40's.
Your brother sounds like a responsible, smart, and spiritually hungry person. He's still the same brother you had a beer with a few months ago, or played tag with 15 years ago - but he's decided to check out something new in life. Let him explore - talk with him about it - accept him (not IT - just him) and he'll figure it out for himself - it will work or it won't.
yeah to Chas, and honestly, I have never met any one person of native american heritage that emulates or even speak of morrison,,,in the not so humble words of a valley girl.....PUUUUULeeeeeeezze
I'm probably going to lose respect from some here for this, but, as I said earlier, I'm still of an advanced class mind. That's a round about way of saying that I think devil spirits may be involved with someone who says they communicate with "spirits" of dead people. I think my brother is playing with fire. I think Morrison was playing with fire. It's one thing to be trained in the use of explosives and pyrotechnics; it's another thing to just be playing with matches in a combustible area.
This doesn't mean that I think ALL native American beliefs are that way. Nothing wrong with respecting nature. I just think my bro is in danger and I don't know what to do about it.
Many Native Americans here happen to also practice Catholicism. I think your brother is playing with fire, sounds like it. But all the stuff we learned in the Advanced Class, which I had 7-8 times, won't do squat to soften his heart and all the judgment in the world won't win him to Christ. Think back to what you learned about how Jesus ministered, for one thing, people don't change unless they want to. In the mean time, prayer and exersicing faith (however you think of it now) hope and especially charity according to the framework of grace that you also live in will be you best mental posture.
I can see very much why you and your wife are mad. I would be too and it would take a bit of work to get my mind around the idea of "love in spite of his chosen mental posture" versus "because he is thinking the way I would want him to think"
Kinda like loving teenagers even when they are being very unlovable.
(not that Im saying he's juvenille or anything)
Patience ... all those things in Philippians's...they forget to teach that in the Adv Class....maybe because it can't really be taught without living it.
Can you tell him what you told us? Maybe just say, "Look, Brother, I'm so concerned about you. I think you're playing with fire when you communicate with spirits. I love you so much. I don't want to see anything bad happen to you." As long as he doesn't feel threatened, I think he'll let you know what, if anything, you can do to help. And if there's nothing you can do to help, well, it will at least open communications between you two, so if there is ever a time when he does need your help, you can be there for him.
You said in an earlier post that he used to go to Mass with your sister-in-law. Did you think he was playing with fire when he said the Rosary? Is praying to saints that much different than seeking guidance from Native American spirits?
johniam - your brother won't understand where you are coming from. Plain and simple. There's a damn good reason why what's shared in the Adv. Class is saved for then and not shared with newbie believers. If you come at him with, "I think you're messing with devil sprits" he'll probably freak on you. It will make a not-so-great situation worse. If you want to keep in touch with him, I still say you should be gentle - but talk with him about it - try to understand what he's looking for - and maybe you can counter offer something far better - the Word.
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notinKansasanymore
My aunt was involved in some aspects of Native American religions, but I'm not sure which ones. I've had an Osage student who is a very religious person, and completely devoted to their religion, but they're also Christians. I've also heard from an extremely reliable witness (my completely skeptical sister) of one incident when a Native American shaman affected the weather quite forcefully (on a dead-calm day, caused a very strong wind at the moment he lifted his arms, which stopped the moment he lowered his arms, while he was giving the eulogy at another Shaman's funeral service). These people are not kidding; they really do have a connection to the natural realm that the rest of us just don't "get."
My take on it is that the religion is heavily involved with being peaceful and listening. Listening to the natural universe, and what it's trying to tell us, and listening to the spirit guides. If your brother was that incensed, I don't think that it came from the purity of the Native American religions. Could it be that he has such strong feelings because he feels guilt over the way 31/32's of his heritage treated the other 1/32?
My advice would be to let things calm down before you try to discuss this with him. Let him know that you love him. Ask him to sit with you and explain his beliefs to you. Have a quiet conversation with him, and really listen. This doesn't mean that you have to agree, but you don't have to shove disagreement at him, either. Just let him know that you care to know and understand what he believes, because you care about him. You aren't going to change his beliefs; don't try. Just let him know that you're interested in hearing his views because he is very important to you. Give his beliefs respect. If he changes what he believes later, or if he doesn't, that has to be only his decision. Your goal, as I believe I read in your post, is not to lose your brother. Since he got so angry with you, he could be harboring a real or a perceived hurt that you gave him during your experiences in the ministry (notice I said "may"; I have no idea if you ever came off as conceited and spiritually arrogant to your family; I just know that that's how I occasionally treated MY natural family). You may (or may not; I don't know you) have apologies of your own to make, that have been years in the coming. If so, that could be a good beginning to your conversation with your brother.
There's not much in the world of competing religions that's worth losing a brother over. Let him know that you love him. He will probably come around to apologizing for sniping at you and your wife like that. May take a few decades. Don't ask me how I know!
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Tom Strange
I don't know too much about it johniam... but I'm of a mind to give folks who want to follow those beliefs the same lattitude I'd like for mine... I know sometimes that dealing with siblings is a little tough, but why not use the incident as an open door to ask him what he believes? ...is there a possibility that two adult men who are pretty set in their beliefs can have a discussion about them?
Perhaps there was something, at that moment, that really sparked him? ...and now, given a little time has passed, you can broach the subject with him of the 'outburst' and then ask him about his beliefs?
That's just my suggestion... because I think there are as many 'factions' of Indian Spirituality as there are of Christendom... and to find out what's on his mind, in his heart... I'd ask him... If you fell like you can...
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Belle
Johniam, I have some family who are heavily involved with shamans and believe in spirit guides, animal totems, etc. They are extremely peaceful loving people and from what I do know about their beliefs they don't believe in any sort of violence or "negative energy" coming from them and words carry energy, so ugly outbursts like that would be a concern for the rest of their spiritual family.
Mind you, they wouldn't condemn or be mad at your brother, but rather concerned about where that much "negative energy" came from and how to best help him heal. They believe in acknowledging these kinds of emotions and learning from them rather than acting on them, especially not to the point of affecting others or putting that kind of negative energy "out" into the world.
It sounds like something is bugging your brother pretty deeply to have reacted the way he did. Especially given his lack of such forceful expression about it before. Was he maybe just having a really, really bad day or week? Problems going on that are in no way related to the question, but that was the easiest, most convenient excuse for him to release all that pent up emotion?
I'd be more than happy to put you in touch with someone who practices that type of belief system as they would be a much better information source than I. PM me if you'd like. :)
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WordWolf
I know very little, but it's probably more than the average GSC'er knows about it.
First of all, there's no "it"- North America had hundreds of nations, and lost possibly
95% of its "native" population as a result of wars with, broken treaties from,
and diseases carried by "colonizing Europeans."
That can make people a bit resentful.
Want an example? Look up "the Trail of Tears", aka "the Trail Where We Cried"
for a well-documented incident in the history of the United States.
And that's really only one story, mostly of ONE nation-the Cherokee.
He sounds angry-and I suspect he's picked up some of that.
If you want to empathize with him, understand some of that anger.
Don't give him any fake pathos bs where you pretend to understand and want him
to suck it up-that won't get his respect at all.
Another thing you'll want to understand...
You'll need to try to see things from a position of a deep respect for the land,
for nature, for all living things.
Not every nation was as enlightened as every other on that subject,
but what's taught around nowadays on the subject-
especially the insta-converts like he might be-
is that this is THE cornerstone of "Native American spirituality."
ALL things in nature are to be respected- for all things in nature are SACRED.
When you kill the deer for food, you thank the deer's spirit for giving you meat,
and you don't waste any of it.
When that's an attitude you can RESPECT and not simply bite your cheek over,
then you may be ready to communicate with him, and listen.
Before he is ready to hear you speak, you will need to hear HIM speak, and listen to him.
Of course, that's just my advice. You're free to dismiss it all you want.
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Abigail
Love him, be there for him, and avoid discussing religous beliefs. If the suject comes up, listen but don't debate.
Native American beliefs vary. You will find diversity there as you do with any religion that falls under one large label - Christianity, Judaism, etc.
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VeganXTC
Johniam, I can tell you a little bit about the spiritual belief system of the Tsalagi (Cherokee) nation, and I work with women from the Ojibwa (Chippewa) nation, so if you want, I could ask them about their spiritual culture. But with your brother living in Phoenix, I doubt if any information I could give you would help. Like Abigail said, different nations had different beliefs.
I would be very concerned about the anger he displayed toward your wife if this is uncharacteristic of him. Are you close to your sister-in-law? Would she tell you if things are well with him, or if things are getting out of hand? Or if she feels there is any cause for concern?
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excathedra
i can only suggest to always treat him like your brother
not sure why he had all that anger that came out in the one moment (did you say he thought you were in a 30-year phase ? ;) )
one of my greatest gifts in life is my siblings always treating me like me and loving me even through all my cult stuff etc.
you're a good brother and i'll bet he is too
mwah
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excathedra
oh yeah, treat him like your brother, not like he's in a cult
and as far as jim morrison and spirit guides etc. leave that to god
your "job" is that of a sweet brother (in my humble opinion)
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johniam
Thank you for all your replies. My brother has shown me many kindnesses over the years. One time I climbed up a tree. When tree forts were built, they would nail pieces of wood 1" by 2" by 8" every foot or so up the tree to the fort. I was climbing one and I grabbed a piece of wood and it wasn't secure and I fell 12 feet on my back. I remember my bro running full speed to make sure I was all right...I was. He took me out picking berries, climbing trees, etc. I love the guy. I don't ever expect to convert him to my particular belief system, but he crossed the line.
quote: I would be very concerned about the anger he displayed toward your wife if this is uncharacteristic of him.
Yes, it WAS uncharacteristic of him. There was a desperate quality about him. I feel like God is telling me to not over react to him though.
quote: And that's really only one story, mostly of ONE nation-the Cherokee.
Interestingly, THAT'S the tribe I'm told our ancestry is from.
Again, thank you for the replies.
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Tom Strange
since it was so "uncharacteristic" of him johniam... maybe there was something else to it? talk to him, reach out to him, as your brother because you care about him, because you care about your (and your wife's) relationship with him...
you say "he crossed the line", maybe he recognizes that... maybe he doesn't, but he is your brother... it might not have anything at all to do with "his native american beliefs"...
life's to short...
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GrouchoMarxJr
Personally, I wouldn't want to dismiss the spiritual beliefs of the Native Americans out of hand...
I have studied some of their beliefs and read accounts of many of their experiences...and I think that God worked in the hearts of these people.
Do I believe everything that they propound?...no. But I also question many things that are supposedly "Christian".
I suppose a common respect for another's beliefs would be appropriate.
They believe in the "Great Spirit"...I would give him his space in his endeavor to experience his own spirituality...
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johniam
quote: Personally, I wouldn't want to dismiss the spiritual beliefs of the Native Americans out of hand...
I have studied some of their beliefs and read accounts of many of their experiences...and I think that God worked in the hearts of these people.
Do I believe everything that they propound?...no. But I also question many things that are supposedly "Christian".
I suppose a common respect for another's beliefs would be appropriate.
They believe in the "Great Spirit"...I would give him his space in his endeavor to experience his own spirituality...
Interestingly, the very day the incident happened, we all saw a presentation with NAs which included dancing chanting and semi worship. The speaker did refer to a "supreme spirit". Those weren't his exact words, but they were along those lines.
My brother didn't give me any space at all. He said I was egotistical for referring to God as 'he', or 'Father'. WTF??? I'm trying to use the Galatians 6:1 litmus test here (if you see a brother overtaken in a fault, consider yourself lest you be tempted). I know that's talking about a spiritual brother, not flesh, but that's as good an example as I can think of giving someone their space. I know that while in TWI, I witnessed to many people and I'm sure I came off to some as overbearing, and those were total strangers. So I'm willing to give him that space. Besides, he lives 1500 miles away from me; I don't have to see him at all.
If my wife can't casually ask him if he's seen a certain movie without him flying into a rage, I'm surprised he ever goes out in public. I've wanted to discuss this with SOMEONE for quite awhile. I considered my sisters, but there's that thing where if you have a problem with someone you're supposed to discuss it with HIM FIRST, not others. I saw GSC as an impartial 3rd party. Actually, you guys have been nicer to me about this than I thought you'd be.
He has made no effort to contact me so right now it's a stalemate. He could very well think I owe HIM an apology. I guess I'm not unwilling to break the ice and send him an email, but I'm not going to apologize until he hears my pov and some dialogue ensues. He really wasn't capable of listening to us on the night in question. Glad my kids weren't there to see it.
Once again, thank you all for your candid input. I don't often request this from GSC and I really do appreciate all your words.
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GrouchoMarxJr
Just a thought...if he's "new" in this belief system...his zeal and intolerance may not represent the attitudes of folks who have embraced this belief system for a longer period of time...just remembering how many of us were when we first got into twi...
If it were me, I would consider throwing out an "olive branch" of tolerance and patience...as a mature Christian (which I believe you are :) ), let him know that you respect his right to make his own choices and simply be loving towards him...I think I would try to avoid confrontation and look for common ground...
Have you ever read "Grandfather" by Tom Brown?...it's a great book demonstrating Native American spiritual beliefs...I gained a greater appreciation of their beliefs when I read that book...
peace.
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Linda Z
Johniam, as Tom Strange said, life's too short.
It can't hurt to be the first one to reach out.
Recently a good friend of mine died at age 64. I had meant to call him and go visit him, as he'd asked me to. Now I can never go back and undo that ommission. God forbid that anything should happen to your brother, but the worst regrets, IMO, are for things we should have done and didn't.
Not trying to be melodramatic here, but life really is too short. It sounds like you really love your brother. I hope you won't let pride or stubbornness stand in your way of what's in your heart to do (or you wouldn't have asked).
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Lizzy
Morrison ate to much. He drank to much. There were drugs also. He did see dead bodies at a young age. His father told him it was just a dream. Morrison did not know how to deal with reality. I will never believe that Native American beliefs drove him to act the way he did socially. I don't believe a Shaman spirit entered his body. I believe this was a fantasy of his. His life and his issues had nothing to do with Native American beliefs. Native American beliefs are not what drove your brother to act as he did either.
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socks
Lizzy, my sentiments eggsackly.
The adult Morrison was a drunk who made his fortune in music. He could have read the bible and handed out tracts onstage and he still would have probably yanked his wanker out for an encore. He fancied himself a poet and his band a creative force. Taken at it's parts there are good qualities but as a band - phhffft. "Riders on the Storm" captures his state of mind pretty well I think.
To me it's not the beliefs that are scarey, it's the people that believe them and what they do with them. Beliefs and ideas don't do anything in and of themselves, regardless of what they are. When we step in - look at Morrison. A bull in a china shop of ideas with no idea whatsoever what to do or how to get out, although that took care of itself in the end. Such is life, and he proves there are limits to what it will endure. No secret there.
The workman selects his tools for the work he finds to do. Your brother's state of mind reflects itself in what he does, johniam. Whether you can interact in a meaningful way with him might take time. Today, nothing. Tomorrow, nothing. Next month - something. It may be you help direct him to people or places that will help.
In the end though I think family is one of the central themes of our lives, good or bad. Your concern shows that. :) When he might feel that no one else is there, you are. That's a lot, although we don't appreciate it sometimes until it's the only thing left standing.
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washingtonweather
Living around quite a few Native Americans in New Mexico like I do, I think
1. the perceptions are extremely over generalized.
Furthermore, there are a thousand seperate beliefs even within reated tribal and pueblo families of native americans, and just as many languages.
I have a very good Navajo friend who is a Speech Pathologist that came from reservation near Phoenix. To this day she finds it extremely hard to see Turtles on the menu in a restaurant in the south especially in New Orleans. Reptile spirits are part of her belief system.
I think the question is that maybe both you and your brother have to learn to transcend these differences and openly discuss what is common ground. If you cannot find common ground, then a mutual respect for your differences without addressing them maybe the only thing you can hold onto. Or not....
I am a Jesus is my saviour christian, but I am friends with all kinds of people with varied belief systems---especially here in Albuquerque. Buddhists, NA, New Agers.
It also seems to me that he is not your "average" (and I say that ith hesitation-as no one is averge) native american, but someone holding on to something with a rope of insecurity.
I think judgment has to be suspended when lives are not threatened. You will never win someone to Christ by judging them frankly.
I have found when there are differences, in families we say the meanest things --more mean than when we speak even in a disagreement with close friends.
So how will you both forgive eachother? Sounds like you both are responsible ultimately. Tell him you are old man coyote..and dont always think about things...look it up first though.
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ChasUFarley
I echo the advice of many here when it comes to your brother -- love him, try to understand what he is looking for, and let him be himself. Somehow, this is scratching an itch for him - he has a need for whatever it is that this is providing for him. Perhaps it's a "phase" - or perhaps it's more - but graciously allow him to pursue it. He will appreciate you for that.
I can speak about Morrison's ideals when it came to Native American culture. I have studied his writings and his life. He was very well read and especially loved the classics and mythology. He dabbled in different aspects of spiritualizm, including Wiccan and the beliefs/practices of the Native Americans. Supposedly he wed Pamela Morrison (she assumed his name - there was not a civil ceremony or marriage license issued) via a Wiccan wedding.
Morrison was heavily into drugs and alcohol. He was known to take peyote and go into the desert for a shaman experience. He'd mix it up with LSD, PCP, and about anything else you can imagine, but he did have a phobia of needles which kept him away from heroine in it's most popular form. He was a brilliant, tragic person - I highly suspect he was bipolar, by today's standards, and used the chemicals I mentioned to feed or manage his demons, as he felt fit. That being said - his death was accidental, by many accounts. I do not believe it tied in with his beliefs, in any way, with the Native American culture he embraced. If you read interviews just before he died - and I think one was done just a couple of days before - Morrison was in a good place, mentally. I think an autopsy would have revealed either an overdose or a heart that said "no more!" - he had abused himself too long, at just 27 years old - he looked like he was in his early 40's.
Your brother sounds like a responsible, smart, and spiritually hungry person. He's still the same brother you had a beer with a few months ago, or played tag with 15 years ago - but he's decided to check out something new in life. Let him explore - talk with him about it - accept him (not IT - just him) and he'll figure it out for himself - it will work or it won't.
I don't think you have much to worry about...
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washingtonweather
yeah to Chas, and honestly, I have never met any one person of native american heritage that emulates or even speak of morrison,,,in the not so humble words of a valley girl.....PUUUUULeeeeeeezze
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johniam
I'm probably going to lose respect from some here for this, but, as I said earlier, I'm still of an advanced class mind. That's a round about way of saying that I think devil spirits may be involved with someone who says they communicate with "spirits" of dead people. I think my brother is playing with fire. I think Morrison was playing with fire. It's one thing to be trained in the use of explosives and pyrotechnics; it's another thing to just be playing with matches in a combustible area.
This doesn't mean that I think ALL native American beliefs are that way. Nothing wrong with respecting nature. I just think my bro is in danger and I don't know what to do about it.
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CoolWaters
This is a hard place to be, imo...loving someone and wanting to 'save them from the fire'...but not knowing how to help or what to do.
Sometimes there just isn't anything to do. Ya know? What could anybody have done about you being in twi?
It hurts, it's frustrating, it's angering, it's all that and then some.
In the end, though, it's his life.
Sux, huh?
:)
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washingtonweather
Many Native Americans here happen to also practice Catholicism. I think your brother is playing with fire, sounds like it. But all the stuff we learned in the Advanced Class, which I had 7-8 times, won't do squat to soften his heart and all the judgment in the world won't win him to Christ. Think back to what you learned about how Jesus ministered, for one thing, people don't change unless they want to. In the mean time, prayer and exersicing faith (however you think of it now) hope and especially charity according to the framework of grace that you also live in will be you best mental posture.
I can see very much why you and your wife are mad. I would be too and it would take a bit of work to get my mind around the idea of "love in spite of his chosen mental posture" versus "because he is thinking the way I would want him to think"
Kinda like loving teenagers even when they are being very unlovable.
(not that Im saying he's juvenille or anything)
Patience ... all those things in Philippians's...they forget to teach that in the Adv Class....maybe because it can't really be taught without living it.
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VeganXTC
Can you tell him what you told us? Maybe just say, "Look, Brother, I'm so concerned about you. I think you're playing with fire when you communicate with spirits. I love you so much. I don't want to see anything bad happen to you." As long as he doesn't feel threatened, I think he'll let you know what, if anything, you can do to help. And if there's nothing you can do to help, well, it will at least open communications between you two, so if there is ever a time when he does need your help, you can be there for him.
You said in an earlier post that he used to go to Mass with your sister-in-law. Did you think he was playing with fire when he said the Rosary? Is praying to saints that much different than seeking guidance from Native American spirits?
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ChasUFarley
johniam - your brother won't understand where you are coming from. Plain and simple. There's a damn good reason why what's shared in the Adv. Class is saved for then and not shared with newbie believers. If you come at him with, "I think you're messing with devil sprits" he'll probably freak on you. It will make a not-so-great situation worse. If you want to keep in touch with him, I still say you should be gentle - but talk with him about it - try to understand what he's looking for - and maybe you can counter offer something far better - the Word.
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