You're right, Vegan......the words people who lack the love and courage do not reflect the love of Christ or glorify God.
Which is why I said in an earlier post that, as he wakes up, these words will be something else he gets to apologize for.
Do note, however, that his/my/anyone's making ungodly judgments of people is entirely different from his/my/anyone's being open to or not open to dialogue. (Of course, if someone's going to spew out unloving comments who'd want to dialogue, but you know what I mean.)
He has invited anyone to email or call him...that opened the door to anyone to do so. I think he did request that whoever emails or calls identify himself. When I have to leave GS one of these days or weeks or months, I don't think I'll mind if anonymous people call or email me, but at the point when JAL wrote that letter, he did mind. That's not unbiblical, imo; we just differ on an opinion.
But his judging people's hearts (calling people unloving and lacking courage) is a whole 'nother story! And as you say, a clearly unbiblical one.
Has GS helped your family or friends at all yet and are any of them contacting the BOD with questions? (I advise that to be done in writing, not on the phone unless they tape the call. Secrecy must be a thing of the past.) It has helped some of mine and they have begun to contact some of the "Board Majority" (copying family/close friends/prayer warriors for accountability both on their part and the BOD's part). And, as I said in that earlier post, some of the CES folks are stirring from their oblivion. I don't expect an instant solution, but I will not back off from working toward a godly, permanent one.
JAL keeps pushing and pushing and pusing momentus.........in one of "his public confessions" JAL has openly admitted to SIXTEEN AFFAIRS during his twi days
Is this really true?
This is the same guy somebody thinks is an APOSTLE? They have words for this where I am from; I will not express them here..
I have a few questions, and questions about personal prophecy are the least of my concerns.
What Im saying is for me it is about being accountable.
John Lynn is friendly to whom he chooses to be friendly to, a potential partner that does not have to much information or questions about the situation is welcomed to talk to him or e-mail him .
I have e-mailed all of them except JOHN LYNN because the fact he was married and it failed in such short order is enough information for me to doubt his promises or words or integrity or even accoutability to God.
I do not need details , a vow before God was made and quickly broken for the second time in his life.
yep he answers to christ. as we all do but and yet he is not an apostle who keeps failing to honor Gods very primary wishes divorce is very serious with God as is the VOW he made to God with elizabeth.
details do not help this error speaks volumes on his attitude alone.
as far as their replies they are fighting and no one will get the story now , and no one will be accoutable. the attornys will handle it!
but yet they writw books and spend years telling everyone eles that is exactly what we should do! but they just do not have to
And I'm so glad to hear you've emailed them all. I sure hope lots of people are.
You might even email JL to tell him why you didn't email him.
Sounds odd, but your reason for emailing everyone but him is biblically sound and that's just what all of them need to hear now: sound biblical wisdom.
I think you misjudge what others are doing.. Are they denying Lynn or any in S&F of being of the brethren? No.. But what they are doing is blowing the horn and letting the church know there is a problem, and it is because they have refused to listen to one, and to a small group that have confronted them over and over. They need to be called out for what they have done and be held accountable to the entire church.. That's all..
No one is casting them out of the fellowship of saints, or out of the church body which is US, everyone, all those who procalim Jesus as their LORD!
However, their "leadership" abilities is definitely in question when they perform as they have shown to the past months and years.. It's a continuing thing my friend they they have shown themselves incapable of acting godly in such a position and as such should take a step back.
There have been a number of reasonable and helpful posts here to help shed light on this situation. The above written by TrustandObey is one of them. Estimated, many of us, believe it or not, are tying to help you here with what we have written. We have also tried to help John Lynn. For example, I have e-mailed John Lynn and Dan Gallagher a few times since I heard about their crisis. I even had two long phone conversations with John Lynn in the past month in the hopes he would reevaluate his life and ministry. As I also told John by phone, I do not think you and he are evaluating things with wisdom. Jesus said "by their fruit you will know them." I have tried to impress this on John and I will now try to impress this truth upon you with the hopes that it might open up your eyes. One brother suing other brothers in Christ over Christian ministry matters is not good fruit no matter how one rationalizes it. Can you see that? This bad fruit has been growing over a period of years because of what they have grafted into their ministry, namely with Momentous and especially, "personal prophecy." Have you thought of the possibility that CES is simply getting the fruit of their own actions with their disagreements and the lawsuit? How many ministries do you know that have boards that prophecy about others in their congregation and see spiders coming out of their nose or see them with many demons and the like such as was falsely prophecied about Elizabeth?
So... Sanguinetti... are you saying that JAL still does not see that these prophecies were misinterpreted? I would think with his letter coming out exposing MG and KAG that he would be apologizing to Elizabeth by now for letting these things take such a place of prominence and allowing it to overshadow God's written Word and JAL's own vows.
The Bible speaks of personal prophecy many times. (Nathan to David, Agabus to Paul) You cannot throw the whole concept out the window because of someone who has twisted or abused it. However, I do think in this case it was abused. This happens with other things as well -- baptism as a "work", tongues as the "only evidence" of new birth, etc.
Abuse of biblical evidences, sacraments, etc. doesn't mean they are inherently bad fruit. The bad fruit comes from people who abuse them, and people who LET THEMSELVES be abused.
With a quick and short post there is not the space to go into detail. However, when I say bad fruit I mean anything done, including prophecy, with out good fruit which is covered in Galations. Good fruit being love, joy, peace, meekness, etc. It is all a walk in the spirit anyone. We might speak words given to us by the spirit of God tomorrow and not even realize fully that they are from God until days, weeks or even months later. On the other hand someone may say something religiously cloaked in a religious setting and none of it is true. It really is a walk in the spirit and sometimes we do not know the voice of God from our own minds and vice versa. This is why speaking with humility is so important and I do not think God will give his words to a haughty, prideful person.
I must report that John is pretty slow to realize that the words given to Elizabeth by the CES council were in fact false. He wonders how I and others would know when we were not there or a part of it. It is because we can read them and can see from the fruit therein that they are false. We can also compare those words offered by Elizabeth and given to John in her long letter which are more spiritual and sound. The question is why is John so slow to realize that these words of so-called prophecy given to Elizabeth were false ones? One of the reasons perhaps is that John did not even read Elizabeth's letter until recently I understand. Apparently, he was also blinded thinking that Karen Ann Graeser is a prophetes while never really questioning her words. This was rather foolish of him I have to report.
...*and people who LET THEMSELVES be abused* geeze Holy smoke.
The bad fruit comes from the people who were abused?? Now THATS a new twist...um have you ANY scriptural reference for such a statement, or is that some more of this personal prophesy crap??
These arse holes set themselves up as messengers/leaders to bring people closer to God....they insist that only in adhering to their teachings and suggestions is one going to grow spiritually. They visciously mistreat people....and it is the people who were foolish enough to want to get closer to God`s fault cause they *let it happen*.
This make it somehow ok? Sure a sucker is born every miniute....but some how one expects a minister to be a help in ones spiritual quest for God, NOT to be opportunistic boogers.
With a quick and short post there is not the space to go into detail. However, when I say bad fruit I mean anything done, including prophecy, with out good fruit which is covered in Galations. Good fruit being love, joy, peace, meekness, etc. It is all a walk in the spirit anyone. We might speak words given to us by the spirit of God tomorrow and not even realize fully that they are from God until days, weeks or even months later. On the other hand someone may say something religiously cloaked in a religious setting and none of it is true. It really is a walk in the spirit and sometimes we do not know the voice of God from our own minds and vice versa. This is why speaking with humility is so important and I do not think God will give his words to a haughty, prideful person.
Seems pretty basic to me. And so many people seem quick to change the subject when this comes up,
apparently to excuse an absence of humility to people claiming to represent God.
I must report that John is pretty slow to realize that the words given to Elizabeth by the CES council were in fact false. He wonders how I and others would know when we were not there or a part of it. It is because we can read them and can see from the fruit therein that they are false. We can also compare those words offered by Elizabeth and given to John in her long letter which are more spiritual and sound. The question is why is John so slow to realize that these words of so-called prophecy given to Elizabeth were false ones? One of the reasons perhaps is that John did not even read Elizabeth's letter until recently I understand. Apparently, he was also blinded thinking that Karen Ann Graeser is a prophetes while never really questioning her words. This was rather foolish of him I have to report.
Ok, he's swift to slap categorical labels on those of us who disagree with him,
swift to accept KAG's a prophetess and endorse her pronouncements CATEGORICALLY,
and slow to read anything that disagrees with any of his positions, regardless of which position it is.
And people are still paying him to do this.
Amazing.
I'd ask "how do I get a piece of this easy money?" but my conscience won't even let me
say it as a joke. I don't know how his allows him to actually DO it.
Unless it's dulled down, asleep at the switch, too jaded to register real issues.
...*and people who LET THEMSELVES be abused* spoken truly like an abuser, Holy smole....ie....it`s all your fault you let yourself be abused.
These arse holes set themselves up as messengers/leaders to bring people closer to God....they insist that only in adhering to their teachings and suggestions is one going to grow spiritually. They visciously misuse and mistreat people....and it is the people who were foolish enough to want to get closer to God`s at fault cause they *let it happen*.
Well,
the people DO bear SOME responsibility.
They went from ONE group that set themselves up as Lords Over God's Heritage,
and ignored the warnings from those who said it would happen again sooner or later (like rascal and WordWolf),
and got involved with a group of ex-LOGH types who started out supposedly
open and honest in all dealings,
and slowly, slowly set themselves up as messenger/leaders whose "suggestions" are tantamount to commands,
whom disagreeing with is disagreeing with GOD ALMIGHTY,
and eventually moved to pushing programs that misuse and mistreat people,
and then make it policy that those at the top can slander anyone so long as it's called "prophecy",
(plus whatever happens I don't know about).
thus resulting in misusing and mistreating many people as a POLICY
(while treating SOME nice, which helps obfuscate the mistreatments with counter-examples),
and becoming OBVIOUSLY UNFIT LEADERS.
The rank-and-file chose to be gullible after being warned the first time.
The rank-and-file chose to suppose their "leaders" could be trusted.
The rank-and-file chose to trust those in power.
The rank-and-file, therefore, are partly to blame, in that they've acted partly as ENABLERS.
If the rank-and-file had risen up to condemn Momentus, it would have been stopped
(instead of just being recommended quietly).
If the rank-and-file had risen up to condemn this "spiders-up-the-nose" so-called prophecying,
these messages supposedly from God but appear to be from elsewhere,
it would have been stopped.
Instead,
the rank-and-file have given over trust and power to those clearly unworthy of either.
Therefore,
it is up to the rank-and-file to WAKE UP,
and REQUIRE ACCOUNTABILITY of those who have already demonstrated gross incompetence,
and deny money, endorsement and support until accountability has been enacted,
and to leave and find some other worthy endeavour if that is not enacted.
Typical when forced to acknowledge the bad fruit. Fer Gawds sake find some way to blame it on somebody, ANYBODY else, rather than get honest enough to reexamine the beliefs and actions that are producing the rotten stuff.
It is pure arrogance.
Sorry word wolf I was posting at the same time.
I guess that I just feel so bad for the folks who dared hope that these people were the ministers and leaders that they claimed to be.
I guess you have a pretty good point. These guys could not operate if people weren`t so willing to tolerate the garbage.
WW.... you wrote..... that JAL was swift to accept KAG's a prophetess
That was not at all swift. It took years for him to believe she spoke for God. Once that belief existed (and many other church people have the same belief in other people), in this church it was played to the hilt by all who benefited from it......thus when the spiders page came, surrounded by years and months and weeks and days and nights of 1000s of other words before, during, after ad nauseum (read Mark's 38 page and 14-page letters again....so many words, many of which--if you don't have outside people speaking their words to counter act them---sound fine. We take ONE step at a time (at least I do when I screw up)...and each one is very small so.... it couldn't really matter this time, could it?
You also wrote....if the rank-and-file had risen up to condemn this "spiders-up-the-nose" so-called prophecying,
The rank and file never ever heard of those 'prophecies' I'm told a CES BOD wife hadn't read them until GS exposed them. That's in E's letter --- how SWIFTLY SHE was dealt with when she showed them to a couple of her friends. More restrictions put on her----and JS highly 'encouraged' her to write a 'good faith letter' saying she was wrong and they were of God since she'd 'done damage to the prophetic' by talking about them to someone 'who could not know since they were not there'.
This is nothing new. Re-read The Subtle Power of Spiritual Abuse. It's all in there. And in Therapy Gone Mad (story of a 70s secular cult with all the same trappings as our cults-of-choice).
JL and JS and others ARE waking up...but how long did it take some of us to wake up to the "obvious to our friends/family" problems in twi? Of course 'they should know better' but obviously they didn't.
That's not an excuse. There is no excuse. None for how they treated people. ZERO.
But it is a reason.
I had no excuse for how I hurt the people I loved, but I did have a reason.
As godly friends/family helped show me my reason was from the pit of hell I was able to re-frame it---see it in a different view (God's view, duhh-hh)--and therefore gasp at how evil it was. And then, those same godly friends/family had to pick me up out of the pit of condemnation I went into and remind me that God still loved me...or I would not be typing this morning. All of that took a lot longer than the 4 months JAL has had since Sept 21 when his letter says he first heard there were problems of this magnitude in CES. Way longer. And I didn't have near the people to apologize to as the CES guys have.
Thank you all again for helping wake them up. Although MG has used posts from this site to quote in his lawsuit, others are reading and learning from them...and God bless you all for it
At present, he only accountabiliy that this circle of "apostles and prophets" owe only seems to be to themselves.
ok. sigh.
I read Marks letter again .
One of the big reason they are fighting is because they break the "confidant" words between one another.
back stabbing and personal words spoken that shocked them when revealed to others.
Im sorry at fifty I just ask why?
so they trust one another to cover one another and it didnt work for someone and they got angry.
everyone who has every been 13 or 14 years of age gets this hurt in life.
What we learned in juniour high is donot tell stories you do not want others to know , do not say anything to a person you wouldnt say in front of the person your talking to.
marriage issues someone whined about how the marriage is ging... HELLO now do we need a lesson in why people want to be sympathetic long enough to get a life off others pain and have a party?
this is why conselors make money to keep their mouth shut.
they trusted one another and found themselves really really hurting from one another.
they are friends and co-workeers for decades.
and they are devouring one another.
do you want to "give them a chance " to be healed with your life?
not me that is down right frightening and life is to full of good decent God loving people who do not want to go to where these guys have gone and go several times in life with foks they LOVE!
much less just give them money or buy a product they produce.
What is even more sad, is the one that came here, "prophesying" imminent devil spirt possession, if we we don't lay off, so to speak, and accept the apostleship of st. John..
It would be laughable if it isn't so serious.
Having been away from der vey for long enough, this kind of stuff looks really really bizarre.
As in "fruitcake" bizarre.
I don't know if a group like that attracts them, or produces them.
Kinda like the question of the chicken and the egg..
The people on the outer circle may be wonderful, sincere, etc..
But you have people who see spiders, see people's faces turn into devils, or seek out and believe those who do, that RUN THE PLACE.
To someone who isn't involved, honestly- it looks like a sanitarium where the patients are in charge.
I wonder why Eliz wasn't named in a defimation siut for what she wrote about m&cg. Couldn't that be called defimation? She sure exposed and let loose about who, what, when and how in her letter.
Thank you, those who understood that I am not saying it is entirely the abused person's fault. It is difficult -- if not impossible -- when you are in that abusive and painful situation to look from the outside and get a clear picture.
It's terrible that some people were so hurt. I agree that beliefs were skewed. I think that pride is running rampant. No one wants to admit "I was blind."
None of us should ever expect any leader to be above or beyond getting off track. We should be keeping our eyes on Jesus and no one else. Everyone else -- even "fit" leaders -- will eventually disappoint us.
It's great how sound communication brings understanding to misunderstandings.
Estimated, many of us, believe it or not, are tying to help you here with what we have written. We have also tried to help John Lynn. For example, I have e-mailed John Lynn and Dan Gallagher a few times since I heard about their crisis. I even had two long phone conversations with John Lynn in the past month in the hopes he would reevaluate his life and ministry. As I also told John by phone, I do not think you and he are evaluating things with wisdom. Jesus said "by their fruit you will know them." I have tried to impress this on John and I will now try to impress this truth upon you with the hopes that it might open up your eyes. One brother suing other brothers in Christ over Christian ministry matters is not good fruit no matter how one rationalizes it. Can you see that? This bad fruit has been growing over a period of years because of what they have grafted into their ministry, namely with Momentous and especially, "personal prophecy." Have you thought of the possibility that CES is simply getting the fruit of their own actions with their disagreements and the lawsuit? How many ministries do you know that have boards that prophecy about others in their congregation and see spiders coming out of their nose or see them with many demons and the like such as was falsely prophecied about Elizabeth?
Mark,
You have helped me see more clearly
so Thank You.
The "disconnect" word you wrote made me see a stronghold
that has prevented me from fully engaging in fellowship for years
in order to protect my heart from further wounding.
That's a big deal for me, so Thanks.
You may not realize that I disconnected from S&T two years ago
because I was and still am aware of the problems which are being addressed at this site.
Now I wonder if I had stayed connected if it would have helped.
Have you thought of the possibility
that great numbers of people have been bessed
with the ministry of Spirit and Truth International
and its desire and efforts in the Lord to see all men saved
and come unto the knowledge of the Truth?
I have simply tried to emphasize the many good and godly elements of John Lynn and S&T.
That You might find my views
lacking in wisdom,
and a glorification of demons,
doublemindedness etc...
well that just doesn't fly with me,
but I realize I know my heart better than you
and can understand how you might have come that point of view.
I mean, Bro,
Did you really think I was claiming to be a prophet with my choice of a Grateful Dead song for a name? !!
( I really have to think you were using some poetic license with that remark)
(( and that choice of names does indicate a lack of wisdom on my part ))
This is not much unlike the reaction I have received from the S&T Leadership
when I expressed a contrary point of view.
Or which I've experienced from the Way.
Or from John Lynn when I insisted that Dr. Weirwille was great Man of God.
But isn't that what happens when anyone does dare to challenge the status quo?
We are all well trained in magnifying the flaws and errors in one who dares challenge the popular position
and how to cut the offender to pieces.
I am not all that doubleminded Mark.
I simply and single heartedly
am striving to love what my Almighy God loves,
and to approve of what He approves of.
Yes I saw the bad fruit from the beginning,
but I found it not hard to feed on the genuine good fruit which was much more abundant.
I have never found an organization run by humans
that wasn't plagued by bad fruit to one degree or another.
We are all a work in progress.
even Apostles
And I am very glad for the good fruited nutrition
I've gleaned from your posts and others here at The Grease Spot.
I wish CES had listened to your concerns about prophesy.
It would have spared them all this anguish they are suffering now.
I share your views much more closely than you think.
I believe you are intent on expressing the Lord's opinions.
And you express them very well.
And what kind of brother would you or I be if we didn't jump all over each other once in a while.
Thats what brothers do.
So I have no regrets.
I'm just not as unaware of the problems as you might think.
Though I can be stubborn and bent to be contrary.
( perhaps from the pathologically anti authoritarian influnece of the Grateful Dead)
The S&T leadership has just made a very hard decision.
But I believe it was the right one.
They have demonstrated again that they will act in a righteous manner,
just as they did when they replaced John Lynn as president.
John Schoenheit will do a great job of bringing the ship back to an even keel.
I am glad you are calling them and giving them support.
That was a gracious post Estimated. However, like yourself my biblical understanding began with TWI. I know the emphasis that they placed on demons or what they referred to as devil spirits. Do you remember the athletes of the spirit production with all the demons running all over the stage? And then came onto the stage, drum roll please, the man of Gawd Craig Martindale to protect and save us little people. This is the kind of arrogance we were subjected to and influenced by with regard to our Christian understanding and education. I think we are much more mature now, or at least we should be, and it is time that we left this world of insecurity. Instead of looking to another as a master apostle who can protect us from evil or instead of taking pride in the fact that we can caste out demons. Wouldn't it be more mature if we would instead look to Jesus' words and example. He is at the right hand of God and I think He can teach and guide us as we grow in Him. Estimated, please read and consider the following passage. I placed in bold what I consider to be especially important and the emphases offered by Jesus in this passage. I think of this passage much when ever I hear any mention of demons or the devil spirit kingdom. Please consider doing likewise.
Luke 10:17-21
17The seventy-two returned with joy and said, "Lord, even the demons submit to us in your name."
18He replied, "I saw Satan fall like lightning from heaven. 19I have given you authority to trample on snakes and scorpions and to overcome all the power of the enemy; nothing will harm you. 20However, do not rejoice that the spirits submit to you, but rejoice that your names are written in heaven."
21At that time Jesus, full of joy through the Holy Spirit, said, "I praise you, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because you have hidden these things from the wise and learned, and revealed them to little children. Yes, Father, for this was your good pleasure.
How about he who is without sin casting the first stone??
the crowd confronted her and was going to kill her! a legal thing to do being as she was caught in the act.
they had every LEGAL right to stone her! she was wrong they were right!
Jesus came along and said let her go unless your perfect and without sin! they did not carry through with the right or principle that legaly she could have died in.
I bet this verse can be used for their adultery which All three of the founding people of stf have confessed to be guilty of!
but I think it also shows Jesus compassion in situations where you can be wronged and have every legal right to even KILL a person yet Jesus chose LOVEand forgivness instead.
and yes boys LOVE is a action word it comes to a point where grown up can realize LOVE is more than a feeling of emotions it is in what YOU do how you act and behave and conduct your life!
that is love.
God gave his ONLY begotten Son! hello for many many generations God told the people He loved them but it was the ACTIOn the behaviour of Jesus Christ that proved what LOVE really is!
and jesus was wronged plenty by those who claimed to LOVE HIM in fact it was Gods own people who murdered him by vote ironic just how Mark G lost his job, and he asked the Father to forgive them.
he could have had a thousand angels at any time yet he didnt retaliate on people he didnt do this tit for tat game these men are doing to one another.
Jesus taught understanding forgivness and tolerance for our problems , He doesnt tell us to win at all cost , He says we are winners and He will take us to a kingdom that this type of killing and destroying will not happen, Untill then He asks us to be different and not play by the rules that hurt and devour one another.
he commands we do love one another. he asks us to forgive one another. Love is in the doing of it.
Recommended Posts
Top Posters In This Topic
34
71
41
47
Popular Days
Dec 29
96
Dec 27
94
Dec 26
47
Dec 28
39
Top Posters In This Topic
rascal 34 posts
Ham 71 posts
therebutforgrace 41 posts
Estimated Prophet 47 posts
Popular Days
Dec 29 2006
96 posts
Dec 27 2006
94 posts
Dec 26 2006
47 posts
Dec 28 2006
39 posts
therebutforgrace
You're right, Vegan......the words people who lack the love and courage do not reflect the love of Christ or glorify God.
Which is why I said in an earlier post that, as he wakes up, these words will be something else he gets to apologize for.
Do note, however, that his/my/anyone's making ungodly judgments of people is entirely different from his/my/anyone's being open to or not open to dialogue. (Of course, if someone's going to spew out unloving comments who'd want to dialogue, but you know what I mean.)
He has invited anyone to email or call him...that opened the door to anyone to do so. I think he did request that whoever emails or calls identify himself. When I have to leave GS one of these days or weeks or months, I don't think I'll mind if anonymous people call or email me, but at the point when JAL wrote that letter, he did mind. That's not unbiblical, imo; we just differ on an opinion.
But his judging people's hearts (calling people unloving and lacking courage) is a whole 'nother story! And as you say, a clearly unbiblical one.
Has GS helped your family or friends at all yet and are any of them contacting the BOD with questions? (I advise that to be done in writing, not on the phone unless they tape the call. Secrecy must be a thing of the past.) It has helped some of mine and they have begun to contact some of the "Board Majority" (copying family/close friends/prayer warriors for accountability both on their part and the BOD's part). And, as I said in that earlier post, some of the CES folks are stirring from their oblivion. I don't expect an instant solution, but I will not back off from working toward a godly, permanent one.
Edited by therebutforgraceLink to comment
Share on other sites
Ham
Is this really true?
This is the same guy somebody thinks is an APOSTLE? They have words for this where I am from; I will not express them here..
I have a few questions, and questions about personal prophecy are the least of my concerns.
no WONDER he doesn't want open dialog..
Link to comment
Share on other sites
pond
What Im saying is for me it is about being accountable.
John Lynn is friendly to whom he chooses to be friendly to, a potential partner that does not have to much information or questions about the situation is welcomed to talk to him or e-mail him .
I have e-mailed all of them except JOHN LYNN because the fact he was married and it failed in such short order is enough information for me to doubt his promises or words or integrity or even accoutability to God.
I do not need details , a vow before God was made and quickly broken for the second time in his life.
yep he answers to christ. as we all do but and yet he is not an apostle who keeps failing to honor Gods very primary wishes divorce is very serious with God as is the VOW he made to God with elizabeth.
details do not help this error speaks volumes on his attitude alone.
as far as their replies they are fighting and no one will get the story now , and no one will be accoutable. the attornys will handle it!
but yet they writw books and spend years telling everyone eles that is exactly what we should do! but they just do not have to
that is my point.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
therebutforgrace
Great point/s, pond.
And I'm so glad to hear you've emailed them all. I sure hope lots of people are.
You might even email JL to tell him why you didn't email him.
Sounds odd, but your reason for emailing everyone but him is biblically sound and that's just what all of them need to hear now: sound biblical wisdom.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Mark Sanguinetti
There have been a number of reasonable and helpful posts here to help shed light on this situation. The above written by TrustandObey is one of them. Estimated, many of us, believe it or not, are tying to help you here with what we have written. We have also tried to help John Lynn. For example, I have e-mailed John Lynn and Dan Gallagher a few times since I heard about their crisis. I even had two long phone conversations with John Lynn in the past month in the hopes he would reevaluate his life and ministry. As I also told John by phone, I do not think you and he are evaluating things with wisdom. Jesus said "by their fruit you will know them." I have tried to impress this on John and I will now try to impress this truth upon you with the hopes that it might open up your eyes. One brother suing other brothers in Christ over Christian ministry matters is not good fruit no matter how one rationalizes it. Can you see that? This bad fruit has been growing over a period of years because of what they have grafted into their ministry, namely with Momentous and especially, "personal prophecy." Have you thought of the possibility that CES is simply getting the fruit of their own actions with their disagreements and the lawsuit? How many ministries do you know that have boards that prophecy about others in their congregation and see spiders coming out of their nose or see them with many demons and the like such as was falsely prophecied about Elizabeth?
Edited by Mark SanguinettiLink to comment
Share on other sites
Holy Smoke
So... Sanguinetti... are you saying that JAL still does not see that these prophecies were misinterpreted? I would think with his letter coming out exposing MG and KAG that he would be apologizing to Elizabeth by now for letting these things take such a place of prominence and allowing it to overshadow God's written Word and JAL's own vows.
The Bible speaks of personal prophecy many times. (Nathan to David, Agabus to Paul) You cannot throw the whole concept out the window because of someone who has twisted or abused it. However, I do think in this case it was abused. This happens with other things as well -- baptism as a "work", tongues as the "only evidence" of new birth, etc.
Abuse of biblical evidences, sacraments, etc. doesn't mean they are inherently bad fruit. The bad fruit comes from people who abuse them, and people who LET THEMSELVES be abused.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Mark Sanguinetti
With a quick and short post there is not the space to go into detail. However, when I say bad fruit I mean anything done, including prophecy, with out good fruit which is covered in Galations. Good fruit being love, joy, peace, meekness, etc. It is all a walk in the spirit anyone. We might speak words given to us by the spirit of God tomorrow and not even realize fully that they are from God until days, weeks or even months later. On the other hand someone may say something religiously cloaked in a religious setting and none of it is true. It really is a walk in the spirit and sometimes we do not know the voice of God from our own minds and vice versa. This is why speaking with humility is so important and I do not think God will give his words to a haughty, prideful person.
I must report that John is pretty slow to realize that the words given to Elizabeth by the CES council were in fact false. He wonders how I and others would know when we were not there or a part of it. It is because we can read them and can see from the fruit therein that they are false. We can also compare those words offered by Elizabeth and given to John in her long letter which are more spiritual and sound. The question is why is John so slow to realize that these words of so-called prophecy given to Elizabeth were false ones? One of the reasons perhaps is that John did not even read Elizabeth's letter until recently I understand. Apparently, he was also blinded thinking that Karen Ann Graeser is a prophetes while never really questioning her words. This was rather foolish of him I have to report.
Edited by Mark SanguinettiLink to comment
Share on other sites
rascal
...*and people who LET THEMSELVES be abused* geeze Holy smoke.
The bad fruit comes from the people who were abused?? Now THATS a new twist...um have you ANY scriptural reference for such a statement, or is that some more of this personal prophesy crap??
These arse holes set themselves up as messengers/leaders to bring people closer to God....they insist that only in adhering to their teachings and suggestions is one going to grow spiritually. They visciously mistreat people....and it is the people who were foolish enough to want to get closer to God`s fault cause they *let it happen*.
This make it somehow ok? Sure a sucker is born every miniute....but some how one expects a minister to be a help in ones spiritual quest for God, NOT to be opportunistic boogers.
Edited by rascalLink to comment
Share on other sites
WordWolf
Seems pretty basic to me. And so many people seem quick to change the subject when this comes up,
apparently to excuse an absence of humility to people claiming to represent God.
Ok, he's swift to slap categorical labels on those of us who disagree with him,
swift to accept KAG's a prophetess and endorse her pronouncements CATEGORICALLY,
and slow to read anything that disagrees with any of his positions, regardless of which position it is.
And people are still paying him to do this.
Amazing.
I'd ask "how do I get a piece of this easy money?" but my conscience won't even let me
say it as a joke. I don't know how his allows him to actually DO it.
Unless it's dulled down, asleep at the switch, too jaded to register real issues.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
WordWolf
Well,
the people DO bear SOME responsibility.
They went from ONE group that set themselves up as Lords Over God's Heritage,
and ignored the warnings from those who said it would happen again sooner or later (like rascal and WordWolf),
and got involved with a group of ex-LOGH types who started out supposedly
open and honest in all dealings,
and slowly, slowly set themselves up as messenger/leaders whose "suggestions" are tantamount to commands,
whom disagreeing with is disagreeing with GOD ALMIGHTY,
and eventually moved to pushing programs that misuse and mistreat people,
and then make it policy that those at the top can slander anyone so long as it's called "prophecy",
(plus whatever happens I don't know about).
thus resulting in misusing and mistreating many people as a POLICY
(while treating SOME nice, which helps obfuscate the mistreatments with counter-examples),
and becoming OBVIOUSLY UNFIT LEADERS.
The rank-and-file chose to be gullible after being warned the first time.
The rank-and-file chose to suppose their "leaders" could be trusted.
The rank-and-file chose to trust those in power.
The rank-and-file, therefore, are partly to blame, in that they've acted partly as ENABLERS.
If the rank-and-file had risen up to condemn Momentus, it would have been stopped
(instead of just being recommended quietly).
If the rank-and-file had risen up to condemn this "spiders-up-the-nose" so-called prophecying,
these messages supposedly from God but appear to be from elsewhere,
it would have been stopped.
Instead,
the rank-and-file have given over trust and power to those clearly unworthy of either.
Therefore,
it is up to the rank-and-file to WAKE UP,
and REQUIRE ACCOUNTABILITY of those who have already demonstrated gross incompetence,
and deny money, endorsement and support until accountability has been enacted,
and to leave and find some other worthy endeavour if that is not enacted.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Ham
understatment of the year. :)
I think it would practically take a nose ring with a rope attached to get him to go anywhere.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
rascal
Typical when forced to acknowledge the bad fruit. Fer Gawds sake find some way to blame it on somebody, ANYBODY else, rather than get honest enough to reexamine the beliefs and actions that are producing the rotten stuff.
It is pure arrogance.
Sorry word wolf I was posting at the same time.
I guess that I just feel so bad for the folks who dared hope that these people were the ministers and leaders that they claimed to be.
I guess you have a pretty good point. These guys could not operate if people weren`t so willing to tolerate the garbage.
Edited by rascalLink to comment
Share on other sites
Ham
That just might do it..
At present, he only accountabiliy that this circle of "apostles and prophets" owe only seems to be to themselves.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
therebutforgrace
WW.... you wrote..... that JAL was swift to accept KAG's a prophetess
That was not at all swift. It took years for him to believe she spoke for God. Once that belief existed (and many other church people have the same belief in other people), in this church it was played to the hilt by all who benefited from it......thus when the spiders page came, surrounded by years and months and weeks and days and nights of 1000s of other words before, during, after ad nauseum (read Mark's 38 page and 14-page letters again....so many words, many of which--if you don't have outside people speaking their words to counter act them---sound fine. We take ONE step at a time (at least I do when I screw up)...and each one is very small so.... it couldn't really matter this time, could it?
You also wrote....if the rank-and-file had risen up to condemn this "spiders-up-the-nose" so-called prophecying,
The rank and file never ever heard of those 'prophecies' I'm told a CES BOD wife hadn't read them until GS exposed them. That's in E's letter --- how SWIFTLY SHE was dealt with when she showed them to a couple of her friends. More restrictions put on her----and JS highly 'encouraged' her to write a 'good faith letter' saying she was wrong and they were of God since she'd 'done damage to the prophetic' by talking about them to someone 'who could not know since they were not there'.
This is nothing new. Re-read The Subtle Power of Spiritual Abuse. It's all in there. And in Therapy Gone Mad (story of a 70s secular cult with all the same trappings as our cults-of-choice).
JL and JS and others ARE waking up...but how long did it take some of us to wake up to the "obvious to our friends/family" problems in twi? Of course 'they should know better' but obviously they didn't.
That's not an excuse. There is no excuse. None for how they treated people. ZERO.
But it is a reason.
I had no excuse for how I hurt the people I loved, but I did have a reason.
As godly friends/family helped show me my reason was from the pit of hell I was able to re-frame it---see it in a different view (God's view, duhh-hh)--and therefore gasp at how evil it was. And then, those same godly friends/family had to pick me up out of the pit of condemnation I went into and remind me that God still loved me...or I would not be typing this morning. All of that took a lot longer than the 4 months JAL has had since Sept 21 when his letter says he first heard there were problems of this magnitude in CES. Way longer. And I didn't have near the people to apologize to as the CES guys have.
Thank you all again for helping wake them up. Although MG has used posts from this site to quote in his lawsuit, others are reading and learning from them...and God bless you all for it
Edited by therebutforgraceLink to comment
Share on other sites
pond
ok. sigh.
I read Marks letter again .
One of the big reason they are fighting is because they break the "confidant" words between one another.
back stabbing and personal words spoken that shocked them when revealed to others.
Im sorry at fifty I just ask why?
so they trust one another to cover one another and it didnt work for someone and they got angry.
everyone who has every been 13 or 14 years of age gets this hurt in life.
What we learned in juniour high is donot tell stories you do not want others to know , do not say anything to a person you wouldnt say in front of the person your talking to.
marriage issues someone whined about how the marriage is ging... HELLO now do we need a lesson in why people want to be sympathetic long enough to get a life off others pain and have a party?
this is why conselors make money to keep their mouth shut.
they trusted one another and found themselves really really hurting from one another.
they are friends and co-workeers for decades.
and they are devouring one another.
do you want to "give them a chance " to be healed with your life?
not me that is down right frightening and life is to full of good decent God loving people who do not want to go to where these guys have gone and go several times in life with foks they LOVE!
much less just give them money or buy a product they produce.
im sad.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Ham
What is even more sad, is the one that came here, "prophesying" imminent devil spirt possession, if we we don't lay off, so to speak, and accept the apostleship of st. John..
It would be laughable if it isn't so serious.
Having been away from der vey for long enough, this kind of stuff looks really really bizarre.
As in "fruitcake" bizarre.
I don't know if a group like that attracts them, or produces them.
Kinda like the question of the chicken and the egg..
The people on the outer circle may be wonderful, sincere, etc..
But you have people who see spiders, see people's faces turn into devils, or seek out and believe those who do, that RUN THE PLACE.
To someone who isn't involved, honestly- it looks like a sanitarium where the patients are in charge.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Ham
Link to comment
Share on other sites
rich
I wonder why Eliz wasn't named in a defimation siut for what she wrote about m&cg. Couldn't that be called defimation? She sure exposed and let loose about who, what, when and how in her letter.
Oh fear of the truth
Link to comment
Share on other sites
excathedra
hmmmmmm evidence for the other side ?
even though i don't really know who the other side is or what the heck this is all about
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Holy Smoke
Thank you, those who understood that I am not saying it is entirely the abused person's fault. It is difficult -- if not impossible -- when you are in that abusive and painful situation to look from the outside and get a clear picture.
It's terrible that some people were so hurt. I agree that beliefs were skewed. I think that pride is running rampant. No one wants to admit "I was blind."
None of us should ever expect any leader to be above or beyond getting off track. We should be keeping our eyes on Jesus and no one else. Everyone else -- even "fit" leaders -- will eventually disappoint us.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Estimated Prophet
Thanks to all of you for your kind responses.
It's great how sound communication brings understanding to misunderstandings.
Mark,
You have helped me see more clearly
so Thank You.
The "disconnect" word you wrote made me see a stronghold
that has prevented me from fully engaging in fellowship for years
in order to protect my heart from further wounding.
That's a big deal for me, so Thanks.
You may not realize that I disconnected from S&T two years ago
because I was and still am aware of the problems which are being addressed at this site.
Now I wonder if I had stayed connected if it would have helped.
Have you thought of the possibility
that great numbers of people have been bessed
with the ministry of Spirit and Truth International
and its desire and efforts in the Lord to see all men saved
and come unto the knowledge of the Truth?
I have simply tried to emphasize the many good and godly elements of John Lynn and S&T.
That You might find my views
lacking in wisdom,
and a glorification of demons,
doublemindedness etc...
well that just doesn't fly with me,
but I realize I know my heart better than you
and can understand how you might have come that point of view.
I mean, Bro,
Did you really think I was claiming to be a prophet with my choice of a Grateful Dead song for a name? !!
( I really have to think you were using some poetic license with that remark)
(( and that choice of names does indicate a lack of wisdom on my part ))
This is not much unlike the reaction I have received from the S&T Leadership
when I expressed a contrary point of view.
Or which I've experienced from the Way.
Or from John Lynn when I insisted that Dr. Weirwille was great Man of God.
But isn't that what happens when anyone does dare to challenge the status quo?
We are all well trained in magnifying the flaws and errors in one who dares challenge the popular position
and how to cut the offender to pieces.
I am not all that doubleminded Mark.
I simply and single heartedly
am striving to love what my Almighy God loves,
and to approve of what He approves of.
Yes I saw the bad fruit from the beginning,
but I found it not hard to feed on the genuine good fruit which was much more abundant.
I have never found an organization run by humans
that wasn't plagued by bad fruit to one degree or another.
We are all a work in progress.
even Apostles
And I am very glad for the good fruited nutrition
I've gleaned from your posts and others here at The Grease Spot.
I wish CES had listened to your concerns about prophesy.
It would have spared them all this anguish they are suffering now.
I share your views much more closely than you think.
I believe you are intent on expressing the Lord's opinions.
And you express them very well.
And what kind of brother would you or I be if we didn't jump all over each other once in a while.
Thats what brothers do.
So I have no regrets.
I'm just not as unaware of the problems as you might think.
Though I can be stubborn and bent to be contrary.
( perhaps from the pathologically anti authoritarian influnece of the Grateful Dead)
The S&T leadership has just made a very hard decision.
But I believe it was the right one.
They have demonstrated again that they will act in a righteous manner,
just as they did when they replaced John Lynn as president.
John Schoenheit will do a great job of bringing the ship back to an even keel.
I am glad you are calling them and giving them support.
So Hold Fast everybody
and pray for God's will to be done.
IThess. 5:20 is very clear.
" DO NOT DESPISE PROPHETIC UTTERANCES
BUT EXAMINE EVERYTHING CAREFULLY;
HOLD FAST TO THAT WHICH IS GOOD"
and Gal 5:9
"AND LET US NOT LOSE HEART IN DOING GOOD
FOR IN DUE TIME WE SHALL REAP,
IF WE DO NOT GROW WEARY"
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Estimated Prophet
Ham,
Here's a Word for an Apostle who got out of line:
" BUT WHEN CEPHAS CAME TO ANTIOCH,
I OPPOSED HIM TO HIS FACE,
BECAUSE HE STOOD CONDEMNED"
Galations 2: 11
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Mark Sanguinetti
That was a gracious post Estimated. However, like yourself my biblical understanding began with TWI. I know the emphasis that they placed on demons or what they referred to as devil spirits. Do you remember the athletes of the spirit production with all the demons running all over the stage? And then came onto the stage, drum roll please, the man of Gawd Craig Martindale to protect and save us little people. This is the kind of arrogance we were subjected to and influenced by with regard to our Christian understanding and education. I think we are much more mature now, or at least we should be, and it is time that we left this world of insecurity. Instead of looking to another as a master apostle who can protect us from evil or instead of taking pride in the fact that we can caste out demons. Wouldn't it be more mature if we would instead look to Jesus' words and example. He is at the right hand of God and I think He can teach and guide us as we grow in Him. Estimated, please read and consider the following passage. I placed in bold what I consider to be especially important and the emphases offered by Jesus in this passage. I think of this passage much when ever I hear any mention of demons or the devil spirit kingdom. Please consider doing likewise.
Luke 10:17-21
17The seventy-two returned with joy and said, "Lord, even the demons submit to us in your name."
18He replied, "I saw Satan fall like lightning from heaven. 19I have given you authority to trample on snakes and scorpions and to overcome all the power of the enemy; nothing will harm you. 20However, do not rejoice that the spirits submit to you, but rejoice that your names are written in heaven."
21At that time Jesus, full of joy through the Holy Spirit, said, "I praise you, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because you have hidden these things from the wise and learned, and revealed them to little children. Yes, Father, for this was your good pleasure.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
pond
How about he who is without sin casting the first stone??
the crowd confronted her and was going to kill her! a legal thing to do being as she was caught in the act.
they had every LEGAL right to stone her! she was wrong they were right!
Jesus came along and said let her go unless your perfect and without sin! they did not carry through with the right or principle that legaly she could have died in.
I bet this verse can be used for their adultery which All three of the founding people of stf have confessed to be guilty of!
but I think it also shows Jesus compassion in situations where you can be wronged and have every legal right to even KILL a person yet Jesus chose LOVEand forgivness instead.
and yes boys LOVE is a action word it comes to a point where grown up can realize LOVE is more than a feeling of emotions it is in what YOU do how you act and behave and conduct your life!
that is love.
God gave his ONLY begotten Son! hello for many many generations God told the people He loved them but it was the ACTIOn the behaviour of Jesus Christ that proved what LOVE really is!
and jesus was wronged plenty by those who claimed to LOVE HIM in fact it was Gods own people who murdered him by vote ironic just how Mark G lost his job, and he asked the Father to forgive them.
he could have had a thousand angels at any time yet he didnt retaliate on people he didnt do this tit for tat game these men are doing to one another.
Jesus taught understanding forgivness and tolerance for our problems , He doesnt tell us to win at all cost , He says we are winners and He will take us to a kingdom that this type of killing and destroying will not happen, Untill then He asks us to be different and not play by the rules that hurt and devour one another.
he commands we do love one another. he asks us to forgive one another. Love is in the doing of it.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.