I have been thinking about something for a long time trying to get a clear picture of what I have always understood intuitively but never really tried to articulate. This may make no sense BUT please understand this is just Mo "a rambling in thought out loud" and not meant as a slam , slur or attack against anyone or any group of people.
I have noticed the following
When Native Americans think about themselves among themselves they think, I am Sioux, I am Apache, I am Inupiat, That broadens to I am Sioux from the Pine Ridge Reservation, I am Inupiat from Kotzebue. And then it goes perhaps to Their occupation their religion whatever sub group they belong to in the larger context of their lives. And when they Run in Groups , Gangs if you will, quite often the gang is all Sioux, or Apache, Or Salish etc
When Middle Eastern Americans think about themselves among themselves they think, I am Egyptian, I am Iranian, I am Pakistani, That broadens to I am An Egyptian whose people came from Cairo , I am Saudi from Mecca. And then it goes perhaps to Their occupation their religion whatever sub group they belong to in the larger context of their lives. And when they run in Groups ,Gangs if you will, quite often the gang is all Iraqi, or Egyptian or Palestinian etc
When Pacific Islander Americans think about themselves among themselves they think, I am Samoan I am Tongan, I am Hawaiian, That broadens to place of origin . And then it goes perhaps to their occupation their religion whatever sub group they belong to in the larger context of their lives. And when they run in Groups ,Gangs if you will, quite often the gang is all Filipino, or Samoan or Tongan etc
When Latino Americans think about themselves among themselves they think, I am Puerto Rican I am Haitian, I am Jamaican, That broadens to place of origin . And then it goes perhaps to their occupation their religion whatever sub group they belong to in the larger context of their lives. And when they run in Groups ,Gangs if you will, quite often the gang is all Mexican, or Dominican or Salvadorian etc
When White Americans think about themselves among themselves they think, I am English I am French, I am German, That broadens to place of origin . And then it goes perhaps to their occupation their religion whatever sub group they belong to in the larger context of their lives. And when they run in Groups ,Gangs if you will, quite often the gang is all Russian, or Irish or Italian etc
When Oriental Americans think about themselves among themselves they think, I am Japanese I am Taiwanese, I am Korean, That broadens to place of origin . And then it goes perhaps to their occupation their religion whatever sub group they belong to in the larger context of their lives. And when they run in Groups ,Gangs if you will, quite often the gang is all Chinese, or Vietnamese or Thai etc
When Black Americans think about themselves among themselves they think, I am a Black American That broadens to where they are from in the United States Because Black Americans whose ancestry is slavery have, for the most part, only the color of their skin to mark them as a Nationality since they cannot say I am Zulu, I am Bantu, I am Watusi.. And then it goes perhaps to their occupation their religion whatever sub group they belong to in the larger context of their lives. And when they run in Groups ,Gangs if you will, quite often the gang is all black.
My point in this late night ramble is that when the thing that makes you as a group is also something that the rest of non black society often time looks at as more of a physical characteristic as opposed to a nationality it is so easy to hear a different statement depending on whose ears it falls on.
"i don't date Blacks"
Is that a racist statement???
That depends
DO you not date blacks because you believe they are inferior or not good enough??? that is racist
OR
DO you not date blacks because what gets your "motor" running is freckles across a nose under green Eyes?
that's not racist anymore than a guy who dates only redheads
This matters when we discuss gangs
If we say there is a gang of Russian Mafia down the street
We may not know precisely who we are avoiding but a group of Chinese or Apache walking by will not cause a case of nerves-- vis a vis the Russian Mafia problem -a group of white people speaking French won't raise an alarm either.
But when we hear there is a black gang down the street- Evey black person becomes suspect--not because the rest of us can't tell black people apart, not because we think black people as a group are dangerous, violent, etc etc etc but because the only differentiation there is is the color of the skin, not the looks of a different nationality, or the accent, or anything else just the Color of the skin.
And so Almost half a century later after Rosa PArks, Martin Luther King, Malcolm X---we still have a black white Issue wherein all black people feel they all are suspect and that all white people just don't understand--I don't know all the answers
H--- I don't even know 3% of all the questions-- but I know there has to be a better way and we need to find it --Soon-- because the enemy without our borders grows stronger ( and I'm not talking about a few of our southern neighbors heading north to work in the fields of California) and we need to start thinking of ourselves as united beyond our skin and beyond our ethnic heritage.
And contributing as one country rather than wanting to take advantage of funds paid for by Americans (wherever our heritage started).
I don't mean to throw this into 'tacks thinking but America has only hurt itself and contributed to this spreading disease because of our PC need to be the ready boob on which we allow anyone to feed rather than to become a contributing member of America. I doubt there is a single person posting or reading this thread that wouldn't allow someone to have the same freedom we have (and are loosing) IF they were expected to become contributing rather than feeding members of something. And that something is where gangs gain memberships in part because they can hide their inner shame of being a deadbeat under there limited view of a worthy cause.
Jonny good for you and bad for that anal leader because you have sorry and I bet he has shame.
Why thank you Lori, that was so kind of you. I never thought of myself as much, but, well, thank you so very much. SA and we "Alaska Gangstahs" (gotta stay on topic ) had a fine time back the, didn't we? Those were good days.... :)
I haven't been able to post here for a very long time. The rare posts I made were emailed to a disinterested 3rd party and subsequently put up, which as we all know tends to diminish the spontaneity of our sparkling wit and verbosity.
Our Greasy Tech told me to try Mozilla Firefox in chat last night, and now here I am!
Thank you, thank you, thank you, Mr Greasy Tech!! May the Lord richly bless you with lotsa GoJo mechanics hand cleaner.
There have always been "gangs". In the 1860's, there were Irish gangs. In the 1920's to the present, there have been Italian, Irish, black, Puerto Rican, Polish, Jewish, hispanic and assorted gangs representing almost every demographic, economic and cultural segment of our society.
It's interesting the reactions here as the wise and rational simply wish to move from the infected places and the sanctimonious and self righteous criticize those who leave while the sheep bleat "racist" to those who choose to resist.
Is it not "racist" when certain people threaten, disrespect, and even kill those who are white just because they're white? Is their "racism" more valid than that (if it be that) of those who simply wish to live peaceably?
My hat is off to the lady who began this thread and chooses NOT to live with it (I only wish her wonderful posts hadn't been deleted as what she said NEEDED saying) while being criticized by one who claims to quiver in fear at the very thought of entering a white middle class neighborhood, ostensibly, because white middle class neighborhoods harbor child molesters, spouse abusers, animal abusers etc etc etc while minority "gang" types never, ever do such things and are as pure as the driven snow.
To those who have the temerity to criticize those who resist the violent threat to their lives, families and private property IN KIND, just remember...it's better to die on your feet than to live on your knees.
HCW, don't know if you were talking to me or not but to answer the question.."How many black people do you know"
Well, we can start with my closest friend, a dude I consider a brother. ... Has NEVER allowed his daughter to talk "ghetto" and she is now 20 and one of the most well-spoken, intelligent young lady's that you will ever meet.
No I wasn't referring to you specifically. It's really difficult, sometimes to make the point one is trying to make in writing. I was commenting more on the comment than the person who made it.
From this perspective. As a minority, I'm thinking that what we want is to be seen as people - period. Eg: This weekend, the conference championships will be decided in the NFL. There is a possibility that for the first time in history BOTH head coaches of the teams playing for the Super Bowl trophy will be black.
Almost nobody noticed. I think that speaks of "racial" progress in this country.
I'm not your black friend. I'm your friend. OK. My skin is darker than yours. I was pointing to the fact that the statement, "All the black people I know..." is very close to "Some of my best friends are black."
(insert whatever heritage ....)
(Alarms go off, generally speaking, in a black person's mind whenever a white friend of theirs makes statements that indicate that said white fellow just can't seem to forget that said friend is black. A change of heart is clearly indicated when we can speak of each other to third parties without even mentioning a person's heritage, which BTW is usually CLEARLY evident (at least in general) at a glance.)
Plus. I was wondering if the person knew many blacks, or even enough black to know that within "black" culture there are blacks, who are as different from other blacks as blacks are from whites.
Man that a big - wide topic. !
I am not referring to what would be called ebonics, if you want to refer to a dialect. That is not the same as ghetto-speak.
True. Well put also.
I also have a 20 year old daughter. She is as well spoken an individual as one would ever meet. A National Merit Scholar in HS, currently a sophomore at Yale University on the closest thing they offer to a full ride scholarship carrying a 3.6 GPA (better than our President's) majoring in Molecular, Cellular & Developmental Biology.
She doesn't utilize ebonics, or ghetto speak, but she could use either if she wanted, as can I. I don't "not let her" speak that way. I've simply taught her that differing dialects may be appropriate at times and that she should know how to speak to ANYONE she may come in contact with to be able to communicate a point to them.
As far as the reference to hate, I think I already said the only thing I hate is prejudice.
Agreed.
I was pointing to the prejudice against people who DO choose ebonics and "ghetto speak" as their primary language. Also. I can "see" hatred in the very use of the term "ghetto speak." I know its a term. BUT. The way some people have used it in this thread - - at least bears discussion. No accusation intended. I'm just discusing the topic in general.
Look, I only chimed in cause it seemed that CW was railing on Dot simply cause Dot didn't want gangs moving into her neighborhood. All of a sudden that makes her a bigot? What sane person WOULD want gangs in their neighborhood?
I seem to have stepped into a battle there unwittingly. I don't advocate attacking folks on the forums, I have defended both myself and my positions quite vehemently. However I really don't like anybody railing on my friends, Dot being one of my dearest for over a decade. We've walked through some fires together (haven't we Dot?) and have come out on the other side.
Of course noone wants gang ACTIVITY moving into their neighborhood. Of any kind from any one.
I reference to my points about wielding a shotgun. Break into my house at night... accost my children on the street... step to me in an overly agressive manner. I don't care who you are, or your racial heritage... you'd better pack a lunch or buss a cap in my head before I can drop you on the spot.
Why? Because I'd protect myself & mine from the evil you're attempting to pupretrate. HOWEVER. If a gangbanger moved in next door, I'd address him for what he does, not pre-judge him for who he IS.
Even if he's a "BAD" person.
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
For the record.
I'm not prejudiced. In fact both of my ex-wives are white.
My family is "racially" diverse.
In fact I'm trying to, and believe we should - as a culture in America, eliminate the terms "racial," "race," etc., from my/our vocabulary.
I think that it is the HEIGHT of HYPOCRACY for any person who professes to be Christian to speak of people as being of "other" races. Isn't it foundational to Christianity that all mankind decended from one man whom we call Adam?
Therefore. All you white folk are my cousins. Since I love my family, I love all of you h@nkies too. My actual position on prejudice is that any and all terms used to describe people can be and for the most part are used mostly to disparage people.
During my football, and other organized sports playing in Jr High then high school, we grew to become a band of brothers. We were united in a common purpose and the more individually committed we became to our goal (winning the game/s/ championship/s) the more united we became as a group. The more united we became the less any of our differences mattered to any of us.
It was a wonderful thing.
We, in the mid 1970's, in this country, ascended to a place where we would playfull banter about with each other, the most hideous racially disparaging terms available. Within our fellowship of brotherhood those terms, meant for evil, to tear one down became a joke to us.
Ever see the movie, "Remember the Titans?" I lived a version of it. It was remarkably similar to what we went through building our football team. I still have this unspeakably wonderful bond with every guy on our squad 30 years after graduating.
I'm not prejudiced. I've just learned how rediculously stupid it is to dislike someone you don't know, just because of their appearance.
Our football team? We were a gang.
Our puproses were societably accepted as honorable.
Problem is, as someone mentioned a long time ago, OPPORTUNITIES.
Opportunity and the American dream is still inextricably linked to "race" in this country. That's what I'm talkin' about! Many folks just don't understand that gang activity is a perverted justification of the Robin Hood theory.
"We cain't get none of ours cause dey woun't let uz hav it. Dey jus give to dere sons & daughters jus so dey kin keep it all for demselves. All I really want is duh same thing dey have."
They won't let me work legitimately for it, so I'll just take it.
Street hustlers live by (& DIE by) you just gotta do what you gotta do.
The average white amreican male says, "My Dad aint rich either! I don't do all that gang stuff to get ahead."
Yes. but there is a loooong way from having little to having NOTHING - - and then being denied when you try to legitimately work for it.
I won't bore anyone w/ the stories of the endless debate on this topic. I understand and concur w/ thinking that there is NO justification to "gang activity." I did say it was a perversion....
I'm just saying I understand basically where they're coming from, don't agree (I hope obviously) just understand.
What is most interesting to me is how there is "NO" crime in New Knoxville. Yet 60 miles down the road in Dayton people take your car when you go to get gas.
The basic difference I see lies in one word.
Enough.
In New Knoxville people have enough. Enough money, enough jobs, enough of the stuff that they want.
In Dayton they don't.
It brings out the worst in people who really would be happy with the EXTRA TV you have in your garage. You know, the one you put out there because you didn't have a room for it (because you have ENOUGH TV's in the rooms in your house you want them). The one you just keep - because its yours.
Beyond the addiction, people steal our stuff because they feel we need it less than they and that we can replace it.
Again there's no real justification, but gangs do gang stuff together because they long for and accomplish the SAME feeling of wonderful I have w/ my teammates. Feeling that great about being TOGETHER. knowing without shred of doubt that your brother has your back feels SOO great you don't care what it is you do.
Ever wonder why ANYOBODY would subject themselves to playing football? (That stuff HURTS!)
The greates memories I have, beyond any victory or loss is simply breaking the huddle and walking up to the line TOGETHER, with those guys. Looking down the line, all of us in uniform, lookin' good, the instant before the ball is snapped. That feeling - at that moment - is indescribably delicious.
We all live for that feeling of unity. They get it in a gang when we should all get it in family.
We will never rid our culture of gang activity until we all, as a culture have "enough."
When they have "enough" in mexico and Cuba they will stop jumping our borders. Other countries don't like America and americans (beyond those who have radically differing religious thinking) basically because we have SOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO much and we share so little of it with them.
Even some of the religious hatred is tied to how they feel that true religion would require a more equitable sharing of wealth.
They are basically RIGHT. They read it in OUR Bible and SEE that we don't practice it. We in their eyes are a nation of the worst kind of hypocrites. It is no wonder t hey don't want to be Americanized. America has more missionaries from other countries here than we have, "over there."
Gang members see a measure of "right" in what they do too. Mixed in w/ a huge portion of you basic perversion. It is next to impossible to convince them that what "feels so right" is wrong.
That's all I have to say about that. (Forest Gump)
A change of heart is clearly indicated when we can speak of each other to third parties without even mentioning a person's heritage,
And there is where one of the problems is--because for those of us not from a slave background--our heritage is very important-it speaks to who we are -where we come from -it does not, for most people, mean we regard ourselves as "better' but it does provide a certain level of camaraderie-the same traditions the same foods, the same folklore tales from childhood. Two strangers who meet and find out they are both from Swedish ancestry for example-will probably have memories of common childhood foods, st Lucia day, decorations, style of decoration etc. which leads to a form of bonding which leads to further bonding
I think that it is the HEIGHT of HYPOCRACY for any person who professes to be Christian to speak of people as being of "other" races
Only if the reference is used in a derogatory means --
otherwise saying
" I am looking for the black girl with the long hair"
is no more "racist" than saying
"I am looking for the the brown eyed white girl"
or
" I am Looking for the Chinese foreign exchange student"
All of them are adjectives
adjectives are a necessity to provide clarification about who and what we are speaking about
Imagine trying to find someone in an school of a 1000 with the following
"I am looking for the girl with the long hair"
" I am looking for the brown eyed Girl"
I am looking for the Foreign exchange student"
Therefore. All you white folk are my cousins. Since I love my family, I love all of you h@nkies too.
Total agreement HERE
My actual position on prejudice is that any and all terms used to describe people can be and for the most part are used mostly to disparage people
And here we are at the crux of the situation-Speaking for myself and a good percentage of the non black people I know--we just cannot assimilate this attitude --because as I said before who we are is not only our jobs, our age, the color of our eyes but our ethnicity too. Our pride in our ethnicity, for most of us, does not mean we regard others ethnicity's as inferior, or bad, or any other negative but part and parcel of who we are and a thing to be rejoiced and elated about--We call it having a good self image.
And when you get down to it
A good self image is where the gang problem starts
With a group of people who lack that good self image and so create a secondary group of people in which they can experience same
In fact I'm trying to, and believe we should - as a culture in America, eliminate the terms "racial," "race," etc., from my/our vocabulary.
I also stepped into the middle of the fight without realizing what was going on, but the discussion did bring up some good points. I agree with TempleLady's post about heritage. we love to celebrate our roots, when we can find them, even when they're not so savory. heritage when you've got dark skin has been "africa" or "slave" or things I won't say.
where I'm from, people of all shades celebrate their Scottish or Indian heritage, but they can't say I am Zulu, I am Bantu, I am Watusi. I grew up in an area where most people were much darker than I. when I moved to Colorado, it felt strange living where the only dark-skinned person in the county spoke with an african accent.
when I moved home, I was dismayed when my kids identified people as "black" or "white".
I explained to them that I am not "white". I'm not the color of snow or milk. my skin is the color of a peach milkshake. my daughter's teacher was not "black". no one is the color of the night sky between the stars. her skin is the color of chocolate ice cream. I wanted them to understand everyone is completely unique, but I also told them that if they can only see the color of someone's skin, they know nothing about them, and since every other person I know is darker than me, referring to someone by a generic label like "black" means nothing to me, any more than saying "that white chick" in a room full of pale women will help me pick out the right person. what does her hair look like, how does she laugh, what color is her shirt, what does she like to do? these are the things that express the person. the shade of their skin is actually only part of what they look like, that's all. cultural roots go way beyond that, but heritage is part of that.
and I was jealous - JEALOUS of my sister's honey-colored skin when I was growing up. I'm pale with freckles :(
the color of our skin is as much a part of us as the color of our hair or how tall we are. or in my case, short.
Thank you for the reply HCW. The only thing I want to mention is, I never think of Steve, or any of my other friends as "black-friends" or any other hyphenated friends. :) I have friends, that is all.
For the record.
I'm not prejudiced. In fact both of my ex-wives are white.
My first wife is Puerto-Rican. From Caguas. (Think that's how you spell it anyway). Actually, she is half PR. We had a couple friends in the area who were also from PR. One of THEM made the joke when he saw my son for the first time, "Hey, you got yourself a little Quarter-Rican". I Thought it was funny as he||!
I haven't been able to post here for a very long time. The rare posts I made were emailed to a disinterested 3rd party and subsequently put up, which as we all know tends to diminish the spontaneity of our sparkling wit and verbosity.
Welcome back Ron
(....snipped...)
....while being criticized by one who claims ....white middle class neighborhoods harbor child molesters, spouse abusers, animal abusers etc etc etc while minority "gang" types never, ever do such things and are as pure as the driven snow.
from what I read this part is very misrepresentative of what that poster or any poster wrote.
Chatty: I will tip toe with you for the time being, if I can find the tulips.
I am going to tread lightly here because I could have read this wrong but.
1) We do not think it is okay for someone that has little to steal from someone that has much right?
Yes, we do not
2) Big or little city does not justify deadbeat mentality right?
No, it does not
3) It is not a Christian belief to give to those who will not do for themselves right?
hmm, I dunno, depends on whose Christianity Brand you are specifying perhaps. (thinking out loud there)
It is my Christian belief that it is ok to give some to those who HAVE not. I do not know of any tenet that says a Christian cannot or should not give to those who will not do. I do not know offhand of any tenet that says a Christian MUST give to those who will not do, however "those who will do not for themselves" is hard to define, and it is hard to identify specifically the individual(s) you refer to.
4) If you come to America you should be required to contribute, pay taxes and everything those of us who were born in this country have to pay right?
please define what we are required to "contribute."
Pay taxes, yes, in accordance with the tax laws.
Pay everything those of us...hmmm.... please elaborate on "everything", it is a word which I fear could encompass many different possible interpretations.
5) We are not responsible to feed and house the world right?
Right
6) What our ancestors had to endure is not a ticket for slothfulness and attitude right?
Right
I have read and re-read and these things are bugging me.
Thank you.
May I ask what it is that is bugging you about these, before I step into something other than tulips? :blink:
Chatty: I will tip toe with you for the time being, if I can find the tulips.
May I ask what it is that is bugging you about these, before I step into something other than tulips? :blink:
~HAP
You did an excellent job of answering and even the ones you thought needed more expansion aren't necessary for me to be answered anymore if okay by you. Tulips are pretty aren't they? But that guy was a whack job wasn't he!
What was bugging me is the capturing of America being done in front of our very eyes in subtle politeness of extending a hand that has become your entire arm. We have become too nice and too afraid to speak.
I've done it myself.
Today I found myself in a situation with someone from Somali who said they needed to speak to the boss man, why they needed to tell me I've no idea, but they went on before I could even stop them telling me they were going back to school and needed the boss man to vouch for their inability to pay their credit card debt. Their words were "I will be in school now and can't be bothered by my credits". Hoping they were talking about something I just didn't understand I inquired as to what that meant and was told they are provided special financial aids from our government that comes by way of the employer when they feel they cannot afford the crunch they have found themselves in.
I'm taking a deep breath because I am still reeling inside from this.
I then proceeded to pursue this and find out if in fact there were such things going on and guess what? Yup! And more! We have held sensitivity classes (mandatory) to teach us Americans how to work with them.
Now how does apply to gangs? This is an example of what has allowed us to become captured. While other co-workers are allowed only a 15 minute break for a 4 hour shift these Somalia's are allowed to go wash their feet 3 times a day (whatever that means), have been given a special room so they can go have their prayer time. Yet when I walk thru their work area they look at me as if they think I think I'm above them because I work in the office. So they gang together and speak these words in their language across the distribution center to each other as I pass them by.
They are a gang of foreign speaking people being paid by my tax dollars to look and make rude comments to me because I am not one of them.
Granted they are working and we are taking taxes out of their paychecks at least.
But they are a gang that we have allowed to capture us.
I just needed to know that the majority if not all of us on this forum do not prescribe to that as being acceptable in any form or fashion.
Daily I see people from other countries here is Alaska who are getting free government handouts supported by our tax dollars who continually complain about "Americans" who we are what we are and why we "Owe" them. And while some program is paying for them to go to school here and helping with housing expenses etc we have people who are VETERANS of Vietnam, Korea, WWII etc --people who fought for this country--sleeping in shelters dying in homeless camps, veterans not covered by any kind of Government pension because their injuries resulted from "friendly Fire", the list is endless.
ENOUGH Already!!!!!
20% of American children go to bed hungry and this in the wealthiest country in the world.
Am I upset that a few Mexicans are picking lettuce in California??
Not half as furious as I am when I see people who are not American Citizens, have no intention of ever being American Citizens and in many cases actively hate us ands our government being given scholarships to our schools, jobs, and economic handouts from our tax dollars.
SEND THEM HOME
NOW
Scholarships and Aid for our own
Aid for those coming here who wish to become part of our great country
I know my emotions are high on this one but I'll be honest and tell you I appreciate your response even if it is in part because I see and feel the same way.
I am growing less able to stomach it and I know I'll either have to just turn it off inside me (which I do for the greater part) or become active in some manner once I move to Florida.
It's just eating me up inside too much the older I get and the more I see this abuse.
People mention these government handouts quite regularly. Could someone please point me to a link where they are described on an official government website? Are they indeed grants that citizens cannot apply for?
I know here in Colorado at state colleges and universities, a non-citizen must pay out of state tuition for college, even if they have been here their whole life and are A students. They are also not eleigible for any state funded scholarships, only private ones. I do not know about federal grants or funds. Can I see a site that describes them and the application process?
I know that in some private schools, some grants/scholarships are available for foreign students only, but they are not government funded grants.
Chatty- you said you looked into the program the guy at work referred to. can you share the link?
~HAP (hoping he does not back into a rose bush instead of a tulip field)
Not without legal ramifications due to the fact I have access to things being in IT. But I assure you it exists. In fact Wal-Mart has the same situation in their organization and I'm sure other industries as well.
I doubt anyone would find some of this out because it is not handled via the government directly but thru the employer.
But what I saw was enough to make me want to go kick a few clothed covered headed women below the belt.
And on that I need to cool down before I just allow emotions to take over.
And none of this is directed towards you Hap, not unless you condoned it and then we'd probably have to talk. :unsure:
Daily I see people from other countries here is Alaska who are getting free government handouts supported by our tax dollars who continually complain about "Americans" who we are what we are and why we "Owe" them. And while some program is paying for them to go to school here and helping with housing expenses etc we have people who are VETERANS of Vietnam, Korea, WWII etc --people who fought for this country--sleeping in shelters dying in homeless camps, veterans not covered by any kind of Government pension because their injuries resulted from "friendly Fire", the list is endless.
(...snipped....)
Scholarships and Aid for our own
Aid for those coming here who wish to become part of our great country
I am not sure in what circumstance you find yourself hearing these things from the very same people who are receiving these benefits. It seems an odd mix of conversation to be raised in a casual conversation. "I get this scholarship, but man, you americans suck and you owe me." I would be embarassed to say those things all at once to a stranger. Is this within your work arena or something?
Wow, I did not know that veterans injured by friendly fire are not eleigible for disability or pensions. Do I remember that more of our soldiers in GulfWarI were killed by friendly fire than by the enemy? How about injuries? I do not know. Seems to be something terribly wrong with the VA if that is the case. Who can fix this problem? Who WILL fix this problem? Are you lobbying legislators to fix this problem? No government money is allocated without some guidelines embedded in law. What are the laws that need to be changed?
How do we determine who are the persons "who wish to become part of this country"? What is the criteria we should use? Your thoughts?
Q?. Should those immigrants who are working here and paying taxes and paying into SS, but who are here without legal papers, be allowed some of the benefits which citizens are allowed? Health care?, K-12 schooling? Others?
Q?. I assume if illegal immigrants are paying into SS that they have a fake SS number. Is that true, or can they get a real SS # if they are not here legally. What if they are not citizens but here legally?
Not without legal ramifications due to the fact I have access to things being in IT. But I assure you it exists. In fact Wal-Mart has the same situation in their organization and I'm sure other industries as well.
I doubt anyone would find some of this out because it is not handled via the government directly but thru the employer.
But what I saw was enough to make me want to go kick a few clothed covered headed women below the belt.
And on that I need to cool down before I just allow emotions to take over.
And none of this is directed towards you Hap, not unless you condoned it and then we'd probably have to talk. :unsure:
Can you give me the name of the program under which these subsidies are given??? Is it something the employer pays but is compensated/ reimbursed by the government?
I know for instance, at least at one time, if a business did work under contract for a government entity, and hired minority employees to perform the work, there was a program that allowed those wages to be paid back by government programs, and the employer also got a processing fee. (This was not for foreign employees, but for "minority classification" employees, under Equal Opportunity laws) It cost me several contracts, since I was not big enough to qualify for the program. Since I would have had to pay all the wages due to my employees, I was at a disadvantage. I wasn't angry about it, I really didn't want the jobs. I prefer small private contracts and the closer contact to the end user.
I believe any such government programs have some website, whether it is a Grant application site or the HEW, or Labor Department, whatever, that describes the guidelines. Like I said earlier, money spent by the government is allocated under some rules which are embedded in law somewhere. (okay, we all also expect there is some graft and corruption somewhere, but...) Are there laws that need to be changed? Is there some bureaucrat that is mis-approropriating these funds who should be fired? Are these illegal payments or kickbacks? What is the deal?
I cannot write or call my congresspeople to complain about a program I do not know the name of or whether it even exists other than that a poster on an internet board, who I do not personally know, told me it does. What do you propose we do about this program? Lets work to end the program, that solves the problem right?
Should we only be angry towards the beneficiaries of a program that our duly elected officials passed into law? It seems to me that changing the laws should be easier and more cost efficient than rounding up the beneficiaries of these subsidies and sending them "home". If they could not get this money, would they not go "home" on their own?
I am not taking this personally and I do not condone the practices under the skeletal guidelines you have so far described. I constantly hear people describe aliens getting stuff that citizens cannot. Now I would like to see some evidence of the laws that allow this. The idea that it exists troubles me too, but I do not know what the programs people are talking about are called under the laws.
I will answer in part and then I am backing off for the night okay.
Yes the government reimburses the employer.
No I cannot give you a link because I have no link at my disposal nor did I make note of it because to have even been where I was might still yet be discovered and I will not say more on that.
I was brought on with that group for a reason and I have liability because of being privy to records that has caused me to be involved in ways that are already more exposure than I ever bargained for.
So no I will not say more on what I saw, you will have to find it another way but it exists. That I will stake my life upon if that at least proves I am not lying.
And there is no way in heck that I know of this stuff and it not be out there for people that blow my intelligence away not to find.
I'm sorry but if I have to curb my words around here to protect myself then I will do that.
I've done it for other reasons and will do it for these as well.
Chatty K, you are brilliant! Keep on voicing your opinion, for, it is excellent!
Jonny, I'm on the wound up side and you made me smile. Even though Hap and I are not fighting at all. It's just the subject that makes me crazy.
OK Chatty, I understand your hesitancy to disclose, and thanks for agreeing we are not fighting. I certainly feel that way and I do not doubt your word.
I only am asking questions that could help me understand where the problem resides, and what can be done about it. I still contend that laws and detailed rules and application processes must exist for these programs that I am told illegals get but citizens cannot. One method to delay the problem is to round people up and send them home. This does not fix the problem, because the money is still allocated and others will return to get it unless these programs are rewritten by laws, rules allocations whatever.
I just cannot find what these talked about proigrams ARE!
~HAP
EDITED TO ASK CHATTY AND TEMPLELADY IF I HAVE THEIR PERMISSION TO PASTE THEIR RECENT POSTS INTO ANOTHER THREAD SPECIFIC TO THIS TOPIC RATHER THAN OCCUPY SPACE ON THIS THREAD ABOUT GANGS?
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templelady
I have been thinking about something for a long time trying to get a clear picture of what I have always understood intuitively but never really tried to articulate. This may make no sense BUT please understand this is just Mo "a rambling in thought out loud" and not meant as a slam , slur or attack against anyone or any group of people.
I have noticed the following
When Native Americans think about themselves among themselves they think, I am Sioux, I am Apache, I am Inupiat, That broadens to I am Sioux from the Pine Ridge Reservation, I am Inupiat from Kotzebue. And then it goes perhaps to Their occupation their religion whatever sub group they belong to in the larger context of their lives. And when they Run in Groups , Gangs if you will, quite often the gang is all Sioux, or Apache, Or Salish etc
When Middle Eastern Americans think about themselves among themselves they think, I am Egyptian, I am Iranian, I am Pakistani, That broadens to I am An Egyptian whose people came from Cairo , I am Saudi from Mecca. And then it goes perhaps to Their occupation their religion whatever sub group they belong to in the larger context of their lives. And when they run in Groups ,Gangs if you will, quite often the gang is all Iraqi, or Egyptian or Palestinian etc
When Pacific Islander Americans think about themselves among themselves they think, I am Samoan I am Tongan, I am Hawaiian, That broadens to place of origin . And then it goes perhaps to their occupation their religion whatever sub group they belong to in the larger context of their lives. And when they run in Groups ,Gangs if you will, quite often the gang is all Filipino, or Samoan or Tongan etc
When Latino Americans think about themselves among themselves they think, I am Puerto Rican I am Haitian, I am Jamaican, That broadens to place of origin . And then it goes perhaps to their occupation their religion whatever sub group they belong to in the larger context of their lives. And when they run in Groups ,Gangs if you will, quite often the gang is all Mexican, or Dominican or Salvadorian etc
When White Americans think about themselves among themselves they think, I am English I am French, I am German, That broadens to place of origin . And then it goes perhaps to their occupation their religion whatever sub group they belong to in the larger context of their lives. And when they run in Groups ,Gangs if you will, quite often the gang is all Russian, or Irish or Italian etc
When Oriental Americans think about themselves among themselves they think, I am Japanese I am Taiwanese, I am Korean, That broadens to place of origin . And then it goes perhaps to their occupation their religion whatever sub group they belong to in the larger context of their lives. And when they run in Groups ,Gangs if you will, quite often the gang is all Chinese, or Vietnamese or Thai etc
When Black Americans think about themselves among themselves they think, I am a Black American That broadens to where they are from in the United States Because Black Americans whose ancestry is slavery have, for the most part, only the color of their skin to mark them as a Nationality since they cannot say I am Zulu, I am Bantu, I am Watusi.. And then it goes perhaps to their occupation their religion whatever sub group they belong to in the larger context of their lives. And when they run in Groups ,Gangs if you will, quite often the gang is all black.
My point in this late night ramble is that when the thing that makes you as a group is also something that the rest of non black society often time looks at as more of a physical characteristic as opposed to a nationality it is so easy to hear a different statement depending on whose ears it falls on.
"i don't date Blacks"
Is that a racist statement???
That depends
DO you not date blacks because you believe they are inferior or not good enough??? that is racist
OR
DO you not date blacks because what gets your "motor" running is freckles across a nose under green Eyes?
that's not racist anymore than a guy who dates only redheads
This matters when we discuss gangs
If we say there is a gang of Russian Mafia down the street
We may not know precisely who we are avoiding but a group of Chinese or Apache walking by will not cause a case of nerves-- vis a vis the Russian Mafia problem -a group of white people speaking French won't raise an alarm either.
But when we hear there is a black gang down the street- Evey black person becomes suspect--not because the rest of us can't tell black people apart, not because we think black people as a group are dangerous, violent, etc etc etc but because the only differentiation there is is the color of the skin, not the looks of a different nationality, or the accent, or anything else just the Color of the skin.
And so Almost half a century later after Rosa PArks, Martin Luther King, Malcolm X---we still have a black white Issue wherein all black people feel they all are suspect and that all white people just don't understand--I don't know all the answers
H--- I don't even know 3% of all the questions-- but I know there has to be a better way and we need to find it --Soon-- because the enemy without our borders grows stronger ( and I'm not talking about a few of our southern neighbors heading north to work in the fields of California) and we need to start thinking of ourselves as united beyond our skin and beyond our ethnic heritage.
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ChattyKathy
And contributing as one country rather than wanting to take advantage of funds paid for by Americans (wherever our heritage started).
I don't mean to throw this into 'tacks thinking but America has only hurt itself and contributed to this spreading disease because of our PC need to be the ready boob on which we allow anyone to feed rather than to become a contributing member of America. I doubt there is a single person posting or reading this thread that wouldn't allow someone to have the same freedom we have (and are loosing) IF they were expected to become contributing rather than feeding members of something. And that something is where gangs gain memberships in part because they can hide their inner shame of being a deadbeat under there limited view of a worthy cause.
Jonny good for you and bad for that anal leader because you have sorry and I bet he has shame.
sorry=sorrow
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J0nny Ling0
Why thank you Lori, that was so kind of you. I never thought of myself as much, but, well, thank you so very much. SA and we "Alaska Gangstahs" (gotta stay on topic
) had a fine time back the, didn't we? Those were good days.... :)
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Ron G.
I haven't been able to post here for a very long time. The rare posts I made were emailed to a disinterested 3rd party and subsequently put up, which as we all know tends to diminish the spontaneity of our sparkling wit and verbosity.
Our Greasy Tech told me to try Mozilla Firefox in chat last night, and now here I am!
Thank you, thank you, thank you, Mr Greasy Tech!! May the Lord richly bless you with lotsa GoJo mechanics hand cleaner.
There have always been "gangs". In the 1860's, there were Irish gangs. In the 1920's to the present, there have been Italian, Irish, black, Puerto Rican, Polish, Jewish, hispanic and assorted gangs representing almost every demographic, economic and cultural segment of our society.
It's interesting the reactions here as the wise and rational simply wish to move from the infected places and the sanctimonious and self righteous criticize those who leave while the sheep bleat "racist" to those who choose to resist.
Is it not "racist" when certain people threaten, disrespect, and even kill those who are white just because they're white? Is their "racism" more valid than that (if it be that) of those who simply wish to live peaceably?
My hat is off to the lady who began this thread and chooses NOT to live with it (I only wish her wonderful posts hadn't been deleted as what she said NEEDED saying) while being criticized by one who claims to quiver in fear at the very thought of entering a white middle class neighborhood, ostensibly, because white middle class neighborhoods harbor child molesters, spouse abusers, animal abusers etc etc etc while minority "gang" types never, ever do such things and are as pure as the driven snow.
To those who have the temerity to criticize those who resist the violent threat to their lives, families and private property IN KIND, just remember...it's better to die on your feet than to live on your knees.
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HCW
From this perspective. As a minority, I'm thinking that what we want is to be seen as people - period. Eg: This weekend, the conference championships will be decided in the NFL. There is a possibility that for the first time in history BOTH head coaches of the teams playing for the Super Bowl trophy will be black.
Almost nobody noticed. I think that speaks of "racial" progress in this country.
I'm not your black friend. I'm your friend. OK. My skin is darker than yours. I was pointing to the fact that the statement, "All the black people I know..." is very close to "Some of my best friends are black."
(insert whatever heritage ....)
(Alarms go off, generally speaking, in a black person's mind whenever a white friend of theirs makes statements that indicate that said white fellow just can't seem to forget that said friend is black. A change of heart is clearly indicated when we can speak of each other to third parties without even mentioning a person's heritage, which BTW is usually CLEARLY evident (at least in general) at a glance.)
Plus. I was wondering if the person knew many blacks, or even enough black to know that within "black" culture there are blacks, who are as different from other blacks as blacks are from whites.
Man that a big - wide topic. !
True. Well put also.
I also have a 20 year old daughter. She is as well spoken an individual as one would ever meet. A National Merit Scholar in HS, currently a sophomore at Yale University on the closest thing they offer to a full ride scholarship carrying a 3.6 GPA (better than our President's) majoring in Molecular, Cellular & Developmental Biology.
She doesn't utilize ebonics, or ghetto speak, but she could use either if she wanted, as can I. I don't "not let her" speak that way. I've simply taught her that differing dialects may be appropriate at times and that she should know how to speak to ANYONE she may come in contact with to be able to communicate a point to them.
Agreed.I was pointing to the prejudice against people who DO choose ebonics and "ghetto speak" as their primary language. Also. I can "see" hatred in the very use of the term "ghetto speak." I know its a term. BUT. The way some people have used it in this thread - - at least bears discussion. No accusation intended. I'm just discusing the topic in general.
I seem to have stepped into a battle there unwittingly. I don't advocate attacking folks on the forums, I have defended both myself and my positions quite vehemently. However I really don't like anybody railing on my friends, Dot being one of my dearest for over a decade. We've walked through some fires together (haven't we Dot?) and have come out on the other side.
Of course noone wants gang ACTIVITY moving into their neighborhood. Of any kind from any one.
I reference to my points about wielding a shotgun. Break into my house at night... accost my children on the street... step to me in an overly agressive manner. I don't care who you are, or your racial heritage... you'd better pack a lunch or buss a cap in my head before I can drop you on the spot.
Why? Because I'd protect myself & mine from the evil you're attempting to pupretrate. HOWEVER. If a gangbanger moved in next door, I'd address him for what he does, not pre-judge him for who he IS.
Even if he's a "BAD" person.
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
For the record.
I'm not prejudiced. In fact both of my ex-wives are white.
My family is "racially" diverse.
In fact I'm trying to, and believe we should - as a culture in America, eliminate the terms "racial," "race," etc., from my/our vocabulary.
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HCW
In fact.
I think that it is the HEIGHT of HYPOCRACY for any person who professes to be Christian to speak of people as being of "other" races. Isn't it foundational to Christianity that all mankind decended from one man whom we call Adam?
Therefore. All you white folk are my cousins. Since I love my family, I love all of you h@nkies
too. My actual position on prejudice is that any and all terms used to describe people can be and for the most part are used mostly to disparage people.
During my football, and other organized sports playing in Jr High then high school, we grew to become a band of brothers. We were united in a common purpose and the more individually committed we became to our goal (winning the game/s/ championship/s) the more united we became as a group. The more united we became the less any of our differences mattered to any of us.
It was a wonderful thing.
We, in the mid 1970's, in this country, ascended to a place where we would playfull banter about with each other, the most hideous racially disparaging terms available. Within our fellowship of brotherhood those terms, meant for evil, to tear one down became a joke to us.
Ever see the movie, "Remember the Titans?" I lived a version of it. It was remarkably similar to what we went through building our football team. I still have this unspeakably wonderful bond with every guy on our squad 30 years after graduating.
I'm not prejudiced. I've just learned how rediculously stupid it is to dislike someone you don't know, just because of their appearance.
Our football team? We were a gang.
Our puproses were societably accepted as honorable.
Problem is, as someone mentioned a long time ago, OPPORTUNITIES.
Opportunity and the American dream is still inextricably linked to "race" in this country. That's what I'm talkin' about! Many folks just don't understand that gang activity is a perverted justification of the Robin Hood theory.
"We cain't get none of ours cause dey woun't let uz hav it. Dey jus give to dere sons & daughters jus so dey kin keep it all for demselves. All I really want is duh same thing dey have."
They won't let me work legitimately for it, so I'll just take it.
Street hustlers live by (& DIE by) you just gotta do what you gotta do.
The average white amreican male says, "My Dad aint rich either! I don't do all that gang stuff to get ahead."
Yes. but there is a loooong way from having little to having NOTHING - - and then being denied when you try to legitimately work for it.
I won't bore anyone w/ the stories of the endless debate on this topic. I understand and concur w/ thinking that there is NO justification to "gang activity." I did say it was a perversion....
I'm just saying I understand basically where they're coming from, don't agree (I hope obviously) just understand.
What is most interesting to me is how there is "NO" crime in New Knoxville. Yet 60 miles down the road in Dayton people take your car when you go to get gas.
The basic difference I see lies in one word.
Enough.
In New Knoxville people have enough. Enough money, enough jobs, enough of the stuff that they want.
In Dayton they don't.
It brings out the worst in people who really would be happy with the EXTRA TV you have in your garage. You know, the one you put out there because you didn't have a room for it (because you have ENOUGH TV's in the rooms in your house you want them). The one you just keep - because its yours.
Beyond the addiction, people steal our stuff because they feel we need it less than they and that we can replace it.
Again there's no real justification, but gangs do gang stuff together because they long for and accomplish the SAME feeling of wonderful I have w/ my teammates. Feeling that great about being TOGETHER. knowing without shred of doubt that your brother has your back feels SOO great you don't care what it is you do.
Ever wonder why ANYOBODY would subject themselves to playing football? (That stuff HURTS!)
The greates memories I have, beyond any victory or loss is simply breaking the huddle and walking up to the line TOGETHER, with those guys. Looking down the line, all of us in uniform, lookin' good, the instant before the ball is snapped. That feeling - at that moment - is indescribably delicious.
We all live for that feeling of unity. They get it in a gang when we should all get it in family.
We will never rid our culture of gang activity until we all, as a culture have "enough."
When they have "enough" in mexico and Cuba they will stop jumping our borders. Other countries don't like America and americans (beyond those who have radically differing religious thinking) basically because we have SOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO much and we share so little of it with them.
Even some of the religious hatred is tied to how they feel that true religion would require a more equitable sharing of wealth.
They are basically RIGHT. They read it in OUR Bible and SEE that we don't practice it. We in their eyes are a nation of the worst kind of hypocrites. It is no wonder t hey don't want to be Americanized. America has more missionaries from other countries here than we have, "over there."
Gang members see a measure of "right" in what they do too. Mixed in w/ a huge portion of you basic perversion. It is next to impossible to convince them that what "feels so right" is wrong.
That's all I have to say about that. (Forest Gump)
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templelady
Only if the reference is used in a derogatory means --
otherwise saying
" I am looking for the black girl with the long hair"
is no more "racist" than saying
"I am looking for the the brown eyed white girl"
or
" I am Looking for the Chinese foreign exchange student"
All of them are adjectives
adjectives are a necessity to provide clarification about who and what we are speaking about
Imagine trying to find someone in an school of a 1000 with the following
"I am looking for the girl with the long hair"
" I am looking for the brown eyed Girl"
I am looking for the Foreign exchange student"
Total agreement HEREAnd here we are at the crux of the situation-Speaking for myself and a good percentage of the non black people I know--we just cannot assimilate this attitude --because as I said before who we are is not only our jobs, our age, the color of our eyes but our ethnicity too. Our pride in our ethnicity, for most of us, does not mean we regard others ethnicity's as inferior, or bad, or any other negative but part and parcel of who we are and a thing to be rejoiced and elated about--We call it having a good self image.
And when you get down to it
A good self image is where the gang problem starts
With a group of people who lack that good self image and so create a secondary group of people in which they can experience same
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potato
I also stepped into the middle of the fight without realizing what was going on, but the discussion did bring up some good points. I agree with TempleLady's post about heritage. we love to celebrate our roots, when we can find them, even when they're not so savory. heritage when you've got dark skin has been "africa" or "slave" or things I won't say.
where I'm from, people of all shades celebrate their Scottish or Indian heritage, but they can't say I am Zulu, I am Bantu, I am Watusi. I grew up in an area where most people were much darker than I. when I moved to Colorado, it felt strange living where the only dark-skinned person in the county spoke with an african accent.
when I moved home, I was dismayed when my kids identified people as "black" or "white".
I explained to them that I am not "white". I'm not the color of snow or milk. my skin is the color of a peach milkshake. my daughter's teacher was not "black". no one is the color of the night sky between the stars. her skin is the color of chocolate ice cream. I wanted them to understand everyone is completely unique, but I also told them that if they can only see the color of someone's skin, they know nothing about them, and since every other person I know is darker than me, referring to someone by a generic label like "black" means nothing to me, any more than saying "that white chick" in a room full of pale women will help me pick out the right person. what does her hair look like, how does she laugh, what color is her shirt, what does she like to do? these are the things that express the person. the shade of their skin is actually only part of what they look like, that's all. cultural roots go way beyond that, but heritage is part of that.
and I was jealous - JEALOUS of my sister's honey-colored skin when I was growing up. I'm pale with freckles :(
the color of our skin is as much a part of us as the color of our hair or how tall we are. or in my case, short.
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Bluzeman
Thank you for the reply HCW. The only thing I want to mention is, I never think of Steve, or any of my other friends as "black-friends" or any other hyphenated friends. :) I have friends, that is all.
My first wife is Puerto-Rican. From Caguas. (Think that's how you spell it anyway). Actually, she is half PR. We had a couple friends in the area who were also from PR. One of THEM made the joke when he saw my son for the first time, "Hey, you got yourself a little Quarter-Rican". I Thought it was funny as he||!
Rick
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HAPe4me
~HAP
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ChasUFarley
The subject of race has come up...
How about socioeconomic background? Has that come up yet?
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ChattyKathy
I am going to tread lightly here because I could have read this wrong but.
1) We do not think it is okay for someone that has little to steal from someone that has much right?
2) Big or little city does not justify deadbeat mentality right?
3) It is not a Christian belief to give to those who will not do for themselves right?
4) If you come to America you should be required to contribute, pay taxes and everything those of us who were born in this country have to pay right?
5) We are not responsible to feed and house the world right?
6) What our ancestors had to endure is not a ticket for slothfulness and attitude right?
I have read and re-read and these things are bugging me.
Thank you.
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HAPe4me
Chatty: I will tip toe with you for the time being, if I can find the tulips.
May I ask what it is that is bugging you about these, before I step into something other than tulips? :blink:
~HAP
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ChattyKathy
You did an excellent job of answering and even the ones you thought needed more expansion aren't necessary for me to be answered anymore if okay by you. Tulips are pretty aren't they? But that guy was a whack job wasn't he!
What was bugging me is the capturing of America being done in front of our very eyes in subtle politeness of extending a hand that has become your entire arm. We have become too nice and too afraid to speak.
I've done it myself.
Today I found myself in a situation with someone from Somali who said they needed to speak to the boss man, why they needed to tell me I've no idea, but they went on before I could even stop them telling me they were going back to school and needed the boss man to vouch for their inability to pay their credit card debt. Their words were "I will be in school now and can't be bothered by my credits". Hoping they were talking about something I just didn't understand I inquired as to what that meant and was told they are provided special financial aids from our government that comes by way of the employer when they feel they cannot afford the crunch they have found themselves in.
I'm taking a deep breath because I am still reeling inside from this.
I then proceeded to pursue this and find out if in fact there were such things going on and guess what? Yup! And more! We have held sensitivity classes (mandatory) to teach us Americans how to work with them.
Now how does apply to gangs? This is an example of what has allowed us to become captured. While other co-workers are allowed only a 15 minute break for a 4 hour shift these Somalia's are allowed to go wash their feet 3 times a day (whatever that means), have been given a special room so they can go have their prayer time. Yet when I walk thru their work area they look at me as if they think I think I'm above them because I work in the office. So they gang together and speak these words in their language across the distribution center to each other as I pass them by.
They are a gang of foreign speaking people being paid by my tax dollars to look and make rude comments to me because I am not one of them.
Granted they are working and we are taking taxes out of their paychecks at least.
But they are a gang that we have allowed to capture us.
I just needed to know that the majority if not all of us on this forum do not prescribe to that as being acceptable in any form or fashion.
Yup, I reckon it is personal also.
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templelady
CK you have hit on one of my pet peeves-
Daily I see people from other countries here is Alaska who are getting free government handouts supported by our tax dollars who continually complain about "Americans" who we are what we are and why we "Owe" them. And while some program is paying for them to go to school here and helping with housing expenses etc we have people who are VETERANS of Vietnam, Korea, WWII etc --people who fought for this country--sleeping in shelters dying in homeless camps, veterans not covered by any kind of Government pension because their injuries resulted from "friendly Fire", the list is endless.
ENOUGH Already!!!!!
20% of American children go to bed hungry and this in the wealthiest country in the world.
Am I upset that a few Mexicans are picking lettuce in California??
Not half as furious as I am when I see people who are not American Citizens, have no intention of ever being American Citizens and in many cases actively hate us ands our government being given scholarships to our schools, jobs, and economic handouts from our tax dollars.
SEND THEM HOME
NOW
Scholarships and Aid for our own
Aid for those coming here who wish to become part of our great country
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ChattyKathy
I know my emotions are high on this one but I'll be honest and tell you I appreciate your response even if it is in part because I see and feel the same way.
I am growing less able to stomach it and I know I'll either have to just turn it off inside me (which I do for the greater part) or become active in some manner once I move to Florida.
It's just eating me up inside too much the older I get and the more I see this abuse.
(edits tork me off and it's my own dang fault)
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HAPe4me
People mention these government handouts quite regularly. Could someone please point me to a link where they are described on an official government website? Are they indeed grants that citizens cannot apply for?
I know here in Colorado at state colleges and universities, a non-citizen must pay out of state tuition for college, even if they have been here their whole life and are A students. They are also not eleigible for any state funded scholarships, only private ones. I do not know about federal grants or funds. Can I see a site that describes them and the application process?
I know that in some private schools, some grants/scholarships are available for foreign students only, but they are not government funded grants.
Chatty- you said you looked into the program the guy at work referred to. can you share the link?
~HAP (hoping he does not back into a rose bush instead of a tulip field)
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ChattyKathy
Not without legal ramifications due to the fact I have access to things being in IT. But I assure you it exists. In fact Wal-Mart has the same situation in their organization and I'm sure other industries as well.
I doubt anyone would find some of this out because it is not handled via the government directly but thru the employer.
But what I saw was enough to make me want to go kick a few clothed covered headed women below the belt.
And on that I need to cool down before I just allow emotions to take over.
And none of this is directed towards you Hap, not unless you condoned it and then we'd probably have to talk.
:unsure:
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HAPe4me
I am not sure in what circumstance you find yourself hearing these things from the very same people who are receiving these benefits. It seems an odd mix of conversation to be raised in a casual conversation. "I get this scholarship, but man, you americans suck and you owe me." I would be embarassed to say those things all at once to a stranger. Is this within your work arena or something?
Wow, I did not know that veterans injured by friendly fire are not eleigible for disability or pensions. Do I remember that more of our soldiers in GulfWarI were killed by friendly fire than by the enemy? How about injuries? I do not know. Seems to be something terribly wrong with the VA if that is the case. Who can fix this problem? Who WILL fix this problem? Are you lobbying legislators to fix this problem? No government money is allocated without some guidelines embedded in law. What are the laws that need to be changed?
How do we determine who are the persons "who wish to become part of this country"? What is the criteria we should use? Your thoughts?
Q?. Should those immigrants who are working here and paying taxes and paying into SS, but who are here without legal papers, be allowed some of the benefits which citizens are allowed? Health care?, K-12 schooling? Others?
Q?. I assume if illegal immigrants are paying into SS that they have a fake SS number. Is that true, or can they get a real SS # if they are not here legally. What if they are not citizens but here legally?
~HAP
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ChattyKathy
I know you are addressing templelady but I have thoughts on some of that but I can't give anymore tonight.
I've allowed myself to get too emotional so I shall give my goodnights to you folks and hope that we all rest well when we do.
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HAPe4me
Can you give me the name of the program under which these subsidies are given??? Is it something the employer pays but is compensated/ reimbursed by the government?
I know for instance, at least at one time, if a business did work under contract for a government entity, and hired minority employees to perform the work, there was a program that allowed those wages to be paid back by government programs, and the employer also got a processing fee. (This was not for foreign employees, but for "minority classification" employees, under Equal Opportunity laws) It cost me several contracts, since I was not big enough to qualify for the program. Since I would have had to pay all the wages due to my employees, I was at a disadvantage. I wasn't angry about it, I really didn't want the jobs. I prefer small private contracts and the closer contact to the end user.
I believe any such government programs have some website, whether it is a Grant application site or the HEW, or Labor Department, whatever, that describes the guidelines. Like I said earlier, money spent by the government is allocated under some rules which are embedded in law somewhere. (okay, we all also expect there is some graft and corruption somewhere, but...) Are there laws that need to be changed? Is there some bureaucrat that is mis-approropriating these funds who should be fired? Are these illegal payments or kickbacks? What is the deal?
I cannot write or call my congresspeople to complain about a program I do not know the name of or whether it even exists other than that a poster on an internet board, who I do not personally know, told me it does. What do you propose we do about this program? Lets work to end the program, that solves the problem right?
Should we only be angry towards the beneficiaries of a program that our duly elected officials passed into law? It seems to me that changing the laws should be easier and more cost efficient than rounding up the beneficiaries of these subsidies and sending them "home". If they could not get this money, would they not go "home" on their own?
I am not taking this personally and I do not condone the practices under the skeletal guidelines you have so far described. I constantly hear people describe aliens getting stuff that citizens cannot. Now I would like to see some evidence of the laws that allow this. The idea that it exists troubles me too, but I do not know what the programs people are talking about are called under the laws.
~HAP
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J0nny Ling0
Chatty K, you are brilliant! Keep on voicing your opinion, for, it is excellent!
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ChattyKathy
I will answer in part and then I am backing off for the night okay.
Yes the government reimburses the employer.
No I cannot give you a link because I have no link at my disposal nor did I make note of it because to have even been where I was might still yet be discovered and I will not say more on that.
I was brought on with that group for a reason and I have liability because of being privy to records that has caused me to be involved in ways that are already more exposure than I ever bargained for.
So no I will not say more on what I saw, you will have to find it another way but it exists. That I will stake my life upon if that at least proves I am not lying.
And there is no way in heck that I know of this stuff and it not be out there for people that blow my intelligence away not to find.
I'm sorry but if I have to curb my words around here to protect myself then I will do that.
I've done it for other reasons and will do it for these as well.
Jonny, I'm on the wound up side and you made me smile. Even though Hap and I are not fighting at all. It's just the subject that makes me crazy.
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HAPe4me
OK Chatty, I understand your hesitancy to disclose, and thanks for agreeing we are not fighting. I certainly feel that way and I do not doubt your word.
I only am asking questions that could help me understand where the problem resides, and what can be done about it. I still contend that laws and detailed rules and application processes must exist for these programs that I am told illegals get but citizens cannot. One method to delay the problem is to round people up and send them home. This does not fix the problem, because the money is still allocated and others will return to get it unless these programs are rewritten by laws, rules allocations whatever.
I just cannot find what these talked about proigrams ARE!
~HAP
EDITED TO ASK CHATTY AND TEMPLELADY IF I HAVE THEIR PERMISSION TO PASTE THEIR RECENT POSTS INTO ANOTHER THREAD SPECIFIC TO THIS TOPIC RATHER THAN OCCUPY SPACE ON THIS THREAD ABOUT GANGS?
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