so if you're not christian or you dont believe in the bible why you on a doctrine forum.?
Partly because I can learn from others here, and they can learn from me.
I am not locked into any particular doctrine these days, and have reconsidered my position on many things after a good discussion in the doctrinal forum. I've also gotten others to consider their own beliefs by asking questions and pointing out what I consider inconsistancies.
The point of the doctrinal forum is not to beat others into submission to one's own beliefs, or to billboard one's pet doctrine. It's to discuss. After being in what I now consider a cult for many years, I also enjoy analyzing doctrines of The Way, and Christianity in general, that I once accepted without question. On an intellectual level I enjoy the give and take, the debate, the honing of logical skills and critical thinking abilities.
I've also learned to be respectful of others' beliefs. Cman can tell you that he and I got on each others' case a few months back, but we both learned soemthing about the other's writing styles and thought processes. Dmiller and I are as different as can be, yet we respect each other and learn from each other.
Despite our common (for most of us) background in Christianity, and in particular, the Way, this is not a Christian forum. Christians are far and away the majority, but the purpsoe of GSC is not to promote Christianity (nor to denigate it).
I've been a part of GSC, if not fron day one, then from pretty early on, at least week one , and doctrinal is one of my favorite places.
i dont see what matthew 15:11 has to do with blood..
matthew 15:8 " this people honours me with their lips yet thier heart is far
removed from me. {9} it is in vien that they keep worshiping me, because they
teach commands of men as doctrines
{10}with that he called the crowd near and said to them listen and get a sense of it
{11}not what enters into his mouth defiles a man; but what proceeds out of his mouth that defiles
a man"
if your saying this means the blood...you're saying jesus contradicted his father..
jesus here was talking about traditions eg not washing hands before a meal {matt 15:2}
read the whole conversation belle from matthew 15:1 to matthew 15:11
starbird
It's logic, my dear. Jesus (and the apostles) all say that the law is done away with - this is merely ONE example - Jesus is clearly saying that it's not what a person eats that matters - it's what's in his heart. If Jesus doesn't give a whit about what people eat, then why does the JW church?
NOT WHAT ENTERS INTO HIS MOUTH DEFILES A MAN..... If you're going to equate a blood transfusion with "eating blood", then here is only one of many verses where Jesus says that what a person "eats" is not important.
Sounds like the JW's are teaching their own legalism and "doctrines of man" while lying and twisting scripture to make people believe that it's a command of God - you posted it right there in black & white:
if something is bad for you its bad for you..
if a doctor said that to eat a certain thing was bad for you do you think he would think it
safe if it was given to you intravieniously...
e.g
heroin is bad for you we all know that right
its like saying to an heroin addict its bad for you to snort heroin,
but if you inject it its ok it wont be bad for you then.
if something is bad for you its bad for you no matter how it gets there.
the blood thing must be important to god for him to keep warning about it.
This is the exact same example used on the JW sites -
Furthermore, your scriptural proof is from the wrong administration:
According to YOUR religion - WE ARE NOT UNDER THE MOSAIC LAW TODAY. The Bible tells us this in no uncertain terms (See Romans 10:4, Galatians 3:23-25, Ephesians 2:15).
The verses you use concerning blood, when looked at in context is only in reference to butchering an animal for food.
You already violate that which you preach to be wrong
It is a scientific fact that blood cannot be completely removed from any living thing that is used for food. Virtually everyone that eats meat or its by-products has "eaten" a large amount of blood during their lifetime. This means that virtually every Watchtower Society members -- unless they are strict vegetarians -- has consumed a large quantity of animal blood during their lifetime.
the reason i bought up dna was just to show how our blood is unique to us. thats all.
heres that bit again..
you and i may have the same blood group/type..
but our blood is different because of the dna..it was just to say our blood is unique to each of us
thats all.
Totally irrelevant to the discussion, then - why even bother bringing it up?
i dont think i can contribute to a post more than anyone else.
doctrine- a principle or belief; a teaching of a person school or church..
and seeing that all things on this doctrine forum are religious i'd presume...church..in this case.
john 5: only goes up to 47...so which john do you mean?
Actually, all things on this doctrine are NOT religious. Just look around - it's actually not the case.
It's John 6:53-ff, sorry about that.
i dont see what matthew 15:11 has to do with blood..
matthew 15:8 " this people honours me with their lips yet thier heart is far
removed from me. {9} it is in vien that they keep worshiping me, because they
teach commands of men as doctrines
That's exactly what your church is doing. They can not prove from the Bible that a blood transfusion is evil. It takes great leaps of logic and denial of common sense to come to the conclusion that they have about blood.
This is why they've already changed their stance many times. They can not back it up under scrutiny.
Mark 7:15
There is nothing from without a man, that entering into him can defile him: but the things which come out of him, those are they that defile the man.
Nothing entering into a man (through his mouth nor through his veins) can defile him. Why is that so hard to understand? Is Jesus a liar? Do you just "ignore" verses like this because they don't support your argument?
1Cr 10:23
All things are lawful for me, but all things are not expedient: all things are lawful for me, but all things edify not.
According to this, accepting a blood transfusion to stay alive would be not only lawful, but expedient.... and, like Bramble's case, edifying indeed.
1Cr 10:27
If any of them that believe not bid you [to a feast], and ye be disposed to go; whatsoever is set before you, eat, asking no question for conscience sake.
So, this is wrong? Let's just ignore this verse because it doesn't fit with what you want to believe?
1Cr 10:29
Conscience, I say, not thine own, but of the other: for why is my liberty judged of another [man's] conscience?
Who the heck is the JW board of "right reverend so & so's" to tell anyone what to do with their lives and own personal healthcare?
Romans 14:3-ff (some excerpted)
For one believeth that he may eat all things: another, who is weak, eateth herbs.
Let not him that eateth despise him that eateth not; and let not him which eateth not judge him that eateth: for God hath received him.
Who art thou that judgest another man's servant? to his own master he standeth or falleth. Yea, he shall be holden up: for God is able to make him stand.
One man esteemeth one day above another: another esteemeth every day [alike]. Let every man be fully persuaded in his own mind.
But why dost thou judge thy brother? or why dost thou set at nought thy brother? for we shall all stand before the judgment seat of Christ.
Clearly, we are no longer under the law. Clearly, we are able (and expected) to eat and drink as we so choose. Clearly, it's not what we eat that will be judged. Clearly, we are not to judge one another.
Romans 14:14
I know, and am persuaded by the Lord Jesus, that [there is] nothing unclean of itself: but to him that esteemeth any thing to be unclean, to him [it is] unclean.
How many verses FOR THE CURRENT ADMINISTRATION do you need in order to contradict the handfull of MOSAIC LAW verses?
Well Oaks, I don't remember whatever it was back then, so we move on I reckon.
You have reckoned correctly. :B) I don't remember the details either, but as you pointed out, we have moved on and learn from each other's point of view.
Star cant pull out scriptural reasonings to back her position, because basically there are none.
Just a couple single scriptures from Acts cut out of context.
Someone suggested that, once seriously challenged, she is robotic with her responses and has no power of reasoning and counterarguement, Well, be not TOO harsh upon her, she can only do that she has been trained to do.
I think the refutations, and scriptural counterpoints posted in this thread have clearly defeated the view that God bans blood transfussions.
Someone suggested that, once seriously challenged, she is robotic with her responses and has no power of reasoning and counterarguement, Well, be not TOO harsh upon her, she can only do that she has been trained to do.
I think the refutations, and scriptural counterpoints posted in this thread have clearly defeated the view that God bans blood transfussions.
Been there ~ done that ~ got the t-shirt for "brainless defense of defenseless doctrines"
That's why I've engaged Starbird where I might not normally. This is a safe place for her to practice defending what she claims to believe. There aren't any JW's here to 'turn her in' or try to figure out who she is. Defending what she's been taught in her own words and, if she would actually do some of her own research and thinking, she may come to accept that just maybe the JW's doctrine isn't perfect and that, just maybe, just maybe, they're actually - gasp! - wrong about some things.
It's those people who challenged me while I was still in the thick of way-brain doctrines that have come to my remembrance at times when I began clearing the fog from my brain. As I kept questioning and defending the TWI doctrine, I kept running into roadblocks in my own ability to defend it. Eventually, I had to admit that the problem was with the doctrines I was trying to defend.
A lot of folks here can discuss, debate and argue without letting emotions get too involved or heated - we're mostly willing to debate and discuss things with the mindset that we've certainly been proven wrong once already, wouldn't be surprised if it happened again. But you'll have to do a darn good job of convincing and proving that the current position is incorrect. So far, Starbird hasn't even come close, imo.
It's logic, my dear. Jesus (and the apostles) all say that the law is done away with - this is merely ONE example - Jesus is clearly saying that it's not what a person eats that matters - it's what's in his heart. If Jesus doesn't give a whit about what people eat, then why does the JW church?
NOT WHAT ENTERS INTO HIS MOUTH DEFILES A MAN..... If you're going to equate a blood transfusion with "eating blood", then here is only one of many verses where Jesus says that what a person "eats" is not important.
Sounds like the JW's are teaching their own legalism and "doctrines of man" while lying and twisting scripture to make people believe that it's a command of God - you posted it right there in black & white:
This is the exact same example used on the JW sites -
Furthermore, your scriptural proof is from the wrong administration:
According to YOUR religion - WE ARE NOT UNDER THE MOSAIC LAW TODAY. The Bible tells us this in no uncertain terms (See Romans 10:4, Galatians 3:23-25, Ephesians 2:15).
The verses you use concerning blood, when looked at in context is only in reference to butchering an animal for food.
You already violate that which you preach to be wrong
It is a scientific fact that blood cannot be completely removed from any living thing that is used for food. Virtually everyone that eats meat or its by-products has "eaten" a large amount of blood during their lifetime. This means that virtually every Watchtower Society members -- unless they are strict vegetarians -- has consumed a large quantity of animal blood during their lifetime.
Totally irrelevant to the discussion, then - why even bother bringing it up?
Actually, all things on this doctrine are NOT religious. Just look around - it's actually not the case.
It's John 6:53-ff, sorry about that.
That's exactly what your church is doing. They can not prove from the Bible that a blood transfusion is evil. It takes great leaps of logic and denial of common sense to come to the conclusion that they have about blood.
This is why they've already changed their stance many times. They can not back it up under scrutiny.
Mark 7:15
There is nothing from without a man, that entering into him can defile him: but the things which come out of him, those are they that defile the man.
Nothing entering into a man (through his mouth nor through his veins) can defile him. Why is that so hard to understand? Is Jesus a liar? Do you just "ignore" verses like this because they don't support your argument?
1Cr 10:23
All things are lawful for me, but all things are not expedient: all things are lawful for me, but all things edify not.
According to this, accepting a blood transfusion to stay alive would be not only lawful, but expedient.... and, like Bramble's case, edifying indeed.
1Cr 10:27
If any of them that believe not bid you [to a feast], and ye be disposed to go; whatsoever is set before you, eat, asking no question for conscience sake.
So, this is wrong? Let's just ignore this verse because it doesn't fit with what you want to believe?
1Cr 10:29
Conscience, I say, not thine own, but of the other: for why is my liberty judged of another [man's] conscience?
Who the heck is the JW board of "right reverend so & so's" to tell anyone what to do with their lives and own personal healthcare?
Romans 14:3-ff (some excerpted)
For one believeth that he may eat all things: another, who is weak, eateth herbs.
Let not him that eateth despise him that eateth not; and let not him which eateth not judge him that eateth: for God hath received him.
Who art thou that judgest another man's servant? to his own master he standeth or falleth. Yea, he shall be holden up: for God is able to make him stand.
One man esteemeth one day above another: another esteemeth every day [alike]. Let every man be fully persuaded in his own mind.
But why dost thou judge thy brother? or why dost thou set at nought thy brother? for we shall all stand before the judgment seat of Christ.
Clearly, we are no longer under the law. Clearly, we are able (and expected) to eat and drink as we so choose. Clearly, it's not what we eat that will be judged. Clearly, we are not to judge one another.
Romans 14:14
I know, and am persuaded by the Lord Jesus, that [there is] nothing unclean of itself: but to him that esteemeth any thing to be unclean, to him [it is] unclean.
How many verses FOR THE CURRENT ADMINISTRATION do you need in order to contradict the handfull of MOSAIC LAW verses?
edited because of formatting
mark 7:15 dosnt say mouth and viens....
you are saying that the blood thing is just old mosaic law and all these scriptures here
say its ok basically to do all the things that were once wrong..
"for the holy spirit and we ourselves have favoured adding no further burden to you
EXCEPT THESE NECESSARY THINGS to keep abstaining from things sacrificed to idols
AND from blood....{acts 15:28,29}
so here the early christians did view this issue as still important.
john 6:53. are you saying you litrally drink jesus's blood...and eat his flesh.
do you think that jesus meant this litrally...
"as they continued eating jesus took a loaf and after saying a blessing he broke
it and giving it to the disciples, he said "take eat this means my body
also he took a cup and having given thanks he gave it to them saying drink out of it
all you for this means my blood of the covenant which is to be poured out in behalf of
many for forgivness of sins" {matthew 26:26-28}
romans 14:3 says not to judge what another person eats/drinks i certainly dont judge what you
or anyone chooses to eat or drink..that is your choice..you should not judge me and others what we choose not to eat/drink either.
read a little further romans 14:11,12 for it is written: as i live says jehovah to me every knee
will bend down and every tongue will make open acknowledgment to god. so then each
one of us will render an account for himself to god.
romans 14:14: only where a man considers something to be defiled to him is defiled.
it wasnt man that decided that blood was wrong to eat or drink it was god that
decided that.so here i dont think they were necessarily talking about blood.
Star cant pull out scriptural reasonings to back her position, because basically there are none.
Just a couple single scriptures from Acts cut out of context.
Someone suggested that, once seriously challenged, she is robotic with her responses and has no power of reasoning and counterarguement, Well, be not TOO harsh upon her, she can only do that she has been trained to do.
I think the refutations, and scriptural counterpoints posted in this thread have clearly defeated the view that God bans blood transfussions.
I agree with every word you wrote.
Blood transfusions save lives in emergency situations and this is good even if you should die later because of one. I think though that is hardly ever the case.
Been there ~ done that ~ got the t-shirt for "brainless defense of defenseless doctrines"
That's why I've engaged Starbird where I might not normally. This is a safe place for her to practice defending what she claims to believe. There aren't any JW's here to 'turn her in' or try to figure out who she is. Defending what she's been taught in her own words and, if she would actually do some of her own research and thinking, she may come to accept that just maybe the JW's doctrine isn't perfect and that, just maybe, just maybe, they're actually - gasp! - wrong about some things.
It's those people who challenged me while I was still in the thick of way-brain doctrines that have come to my remembrance at times when I began clearing the fog from my brain. As I kept questioning and defending the TWI doctrine, I kept running into roadblocks in my own ability to defend it. Eventually, I had to admit that the problem was with the doctrines I was trying to defend.
A lot of folks here can discuss, debate and argue without letting emotions get too involved or heated - we're mostly willing to debate and discuss things with the mindset that we've certainly been proven wrong once already, wouldn't be surprised if it happened again. But you'll have to do a darn good job of convincing and proving that the current position is incorrect. So far, Starbird hasn't even come close, imo.
why thanks belle for engaging with me where you might not normally. this place safe...you are kidding. i'm not claiming to believe, i do believe. so if i were catholic there wouldnt be a problem?
for they defend what they are taught, as do methodists and others.i did lots and lots of research and thinking...in other so called religions i belonged to..thats what lead me to the jws..
you know the exact same thing happened to me while i was in the thick of being a mormon,
this fog began clearing from my brain, as i kept questioning and defending their doctrine.
i too kept running into roadblocks in my ability to defend it.
as i said before im bound to talk in a way thats in line with my beliefs.
you believe in the trinity- i dont..you believe we go to heaven when we die - i dont.
you believe blood is ok - i dont..
its obvious i'm not going to talk as a catholic...because thats not the doctrine i follow.
i'm sorry if you find me robotic and not very passionate..
but you're wrong on that & i'm very passionate about what i believe..and yes i'll defend it.
the same as you all defend what you believe here.
but when others say what they believe..nobody bats an eyelid..but when i do well thats it..
why thanks belle for engaging with me where you might not normally. this place safe...you are kidding. i'm not claiming to believe, i do believe. so if i were catholic there wouldnt be a problem?
Actually, yes, there would be a problem.... if you want to call it a problem when others engage you in a debate over what you believe. :D ANY belief is likely to be challenged here because we all believe different things. It's all good, Starbird. I didn't mean to insult you with that ... there are just so many different beliefs and schools of thought that we all challenge each other here to some degree. It either makes you more convinced or causes you to consider the validity of what you believe. Either way... it's all good.
for they defend what they are taught, as do methodists and others.i did lots and lots of research and thinking...in other so called religions i belonged to..thats what lead me to the jws..
you know the exact same thing happened to me while i was in the thick of being a mormon,
this fog began clearing from my brain, as i kept questioning and defending their doctrine.
i too kept running into roadblocks in my ability to defend it.
That's awesome and I hope that you continue to keep that skeptical and high level of standards for what you believe and why you believe it. :)
as i said before im bound to talk in a way thats in line with my beliefs.
you believe in the trinity- i dont..
dunno where you got that, 'cause I don't. ;)
you believe we go to heaven when we die - i dont.
dunno where you got that, 'cause I don't. ;) Not in the "traditional" sense anyway.
you believe blood is ok - i dont..
I believe that refusing medical solutions to saving life is evil. I believe that your stance on blood transfusions unnecessarily puts people at risk who might otherwise be saved by utilizing modern medicine and the techniques is suicide. I believe that suicide is wrong. So, yes, I believe that blood transfusions save lives... people who accept blood transfusions and die would have died anyway.... so, yes, I think it's nuts and against God's will to refuse a blood transfusion when it's available and possible to save your life.
Furthermore, I don't think you can prove, using scripture, that God would expect or demand that His kids commit suicide, including by refusing blood transfusions.
its obvious i'm not going to talk as a catholic...because thats not the doctrine i follow.
i'm sorry if you find me robotic and not very passionate..
I think you're very passionate, Starbird, I just think you're just as duped as we were. I think you're taking a man's word for what the Bible says instead of really and truly investigating it on its own merits and against common sense. I've been there, so I do think I know why you unquestioningly support what they've taught you, but I also have hope and believe that you're posting here because deep down, you doubt their teachings. You WANT to be challenged to think about what you've been taught. You KNOW it doesn't line up with an "All loving" God that you've been taught to believe in... or for some other unknown, personal reason. :)
but you're wrong on that & i'm very passionate about what i believe..and yes i'll defend it.
the same as you all defend what you believe here.
You don't know what I believe, Darling. ;) For all you know, I could merely be playing Devil's Advocate just trying to get you to think.
but when others say what they believe..nobody bats an eyelid..but when i do well thats it..
in for the kill..
starbird x x x
THAT'S not true in the least! Post anything here and it will be challenged because of the diversity of beliefs and the stellar scholars in different aspects of religion, belief systems, history and theology that are so prevalent at the Cafe.
Ask Mark, our most popular Catholic. Ask Templelady, our most popular Mormon. Ask SirGuess, our most popular Mystic/Spiritualist. Ask Roy.... Ask Allen.... Ask Mike...... Ask TheInvisibleDan.....
We're all challenged, Sweetheart. :) It's what this forum is for... Exchanging thoughts, beliefs and whatnot. If you don't want or don't expect to be challenged then you're in the wrong booth.
I wish I could show some of the things that happen to me here and on differ sites
here when I first came I wrote a post trying to get others to put God first at the top of there post
I all most left but because of a few loving people I saw its ok if I do it but I have no right to tell others to do it
Over on the EX-JW I wrote the year I believe Christ will come back and they can say anything there but over time they saw I care and do not push my believes or at least I try not too and I became welcome
When I begin written "with love and a holy kiss blowing your way Roy" On some other sites of so called christians they wanted to stone me and I was called names
Now my beliefs are nothing like the doctrines of any well known church
and too me the Way and JW are just churches
but that enough of that
I want to ask you to think about one verse.
Matt 4:7 Jesus said unto him, It is written again, Thou shalt not tempt the Lord thy God.
ok a person is going to die without a blood transfusions or a pint of blood who does not try by receiving what he needs.
It's logic, my dear. Jesus (and the apostles) all say that the law is done away with - this is merely ONE example - Jesus is clearly saying that it's not what a person eats that matters - it's what's in his heart. If Jesus doesn't give a whit about what people eat, then why does the JW church?
NOT WHAT ENTERS INTO HIS MOUTH DEFILES A MAN..... If you're going to equate a blood transfusion with "eating blood", then here is only one of many verses where Jesus says that what a person "eats" is not important.
Sounds like the JW's are teaching their own legalism and "doctrines of man" while lying and twisting scripture to make people believe that it's a command of God - you posted it right there in black & white:
This is the exact same example used on the JW sites -
Furthermore, your scriptural proof is from the wrong administration:
According to YOUR religion - WE ARE NOT UNDER THE MOSAIC LAW TODAY. The Bible tells us this in no uncertain terms (See Romans 10:4, Galatians 3:23-25, Ephesians 2:15).
The verses you use concerning blood, when looked at in context is only in reference to butchering an animal for food.
You already violate that which you preach to be wrong
It is a scientific fact that blood cannot be completely removed from any living thing that is used for food. Virtually everyone that eats meat or its by-products has "eaten" a large amount of blood during their lifetime. This means that virtually every Watchtower Society members -- unless they are strict vegetarians -- has consumed a large quantity of animal blood during their lifetime.
Totally irrelevant to the discussion, then - why even bother bringing it up?
Actually, all things on this doctrine are NOT religious. Just look around - it's actually not the case.
It's John 6:53-ff, sorry about that.
That's exactly what your church is doing. They can not prove from the Bible that a blood transfusion is evil. It takes great leaps of logic and denial of common sense to come to the conclusion that they have about blood.
This is why they've already changed their stance many times. They can not back it up under scrutiny.
Mark 7:15
There is nothing from without a man, that entering into him can defile him: but the things which come out of him, those are they that defile the man.
Nothing entering into a man (through his mouth nor through his veins) can defile him. Why is that so hard to understand? Is Jesus a liar? Do you just "ignore" verses like this because they don't support your argument?
1Cr 10:23
All things are lawful for me, but all things are not expedient: all things are lawful for me, but all things edify not.
According to this, accepting a blood transfusion to stay alive would be not only lawful, but expedient.... and, like Bramble's case, edifying indeed.
1Cr 10:27
If any of them that believe not bid you [to a feast], and ye be disposed to go; whatsoever is set before you, eat, asking no question for conscience sake.
So, this is wrong? Let's just ignore this verse because it doesn't fit with what you want to believe?
1Cr 10:29
Conscience, I say, not thine own, but of the other: for why is my liberty judged of another [man's] conscience?
Who the heck is the JW board of "right reverend so & so's" to tell anyone what to do with their lives and own personal healthcare?
Romans 14:3-ff (some excerpted)
For one believeth that he may eat all things: another, who is weak, eateth herbs.
Let not him that eateth despise him that eateth not; and let not him which eateth not judge him that eateth: for God hath received him.
Who art thou that judgest another man's servant? to his own master he standeth or falleth. Yea, he shall be holden up: for God is able to make him stand.
One man esteemeth one day above another: another esteemeth every day [alike]. Let every man be fully persuaded in his own mind.
But why dost thou judge thy brother? or why dost thou set at nought thy brother? for we shall all stand before the judgment seat of Christ.
Clearly, we are no longer under the law. Clearly, we are able (and expected) to eat and drink as we so choose. Clearly, it's not what we eat that will be judged. Clearly, we are not to judge one another.
Romans 14:14
I know, and am persuaded by the Lord Jesus, that [there is] nothing unclean of itself: but to him that esteemeth any thing to be unclean, to him [it is] unclean.
How many verses FOR THE CURRENT ADMINISTRATION do you need in order to contradict the handfull of MOSAIC LAW verses?
But it says that defilement of a man has nothing to do with anything that enters him-
and that means "regardless of the method of entry."
The words "regardless of the method of entry" aren't there,
but that is the plain English meaning of what it says when the general
word "enters" is used, as opposed to specifying "eaten" or the like.
Therefore, that which enters a man can't defile him if he eats it,
or is transfused with it,
or he inhales it,
or he gets a skin patch,
or it's administered through a suppository.
That's because it "entered" him, and Jesus categorically dismissed
all methods of entry unilaterally as methods of defilement.
Now, I can take HIS word for it, or I can take YOUR word for it.
This is not a tough decision.]
you are saying that the blood thing is just old mosaic law and all these scriptures here
say its ok basically to do all the things that were once wrong..
[Especially the ones Jesus said don't apply SPECIFICALLY.]
"for the holy spirit and we ourselves have favoured adding no further burden to you
EXCEPT THESE NECESSARY THINGS to keep abstaining from things sacrificed to idols
AND from blood....{acts 15:28,29}
so here the early christians did view this issue as still important.
[Your quotation left something out.
Why do your verses run incomplete?
You left out abstaining from "things strangled."
Ok, so if your understanding is correct,
Jesus said it's ok, and Acts said it's not ok.
Here are the possibilities.
A) the Bible is contradictory, unreliable, and devoid of authority.
Therefore, the "no transfusion" thing is devoid of authority.
B) the Gospel reference is misunderstood.
Well, Jesus went on at length explaining.
He covered anything entering the body.
Scratch that possibility.
C) the Acts reference is misunderstood.
What makes this obvious is that the Epistles later go into why it's good
for some people to not eat, and why it's good for some people to eat-
when it's the same food both times.
The emphasis is not on the "blood", but on "things offered to idols"-
the strangled offerings and blood offered to idols.
They really weren't supposed to participate in pagan worship ceremonies
anymore, so lay off the pagan ceremonies, the oxen, the garlands,
the orgies, the offerings of things strangled, and the offerings of blood.
So, the rules didn't change in Acts, after Jesus spoke.]
john 6:53. are you saying you litrally drink jesus's blood...and eat his flesh.
do you think that jesus meant this litrally...
"as they continued eating jesus took a loaf and after saying a blessing he broke
it and giving it to the disciples, he said "take eat this means my body
also he took a cup and having given thanks he gave it to them saying drink out of it
all you for this means my blood of the covenant which is to be poured out in behalf of
many for forgivness of sins" {matthew 26:26-28}
[Literally or symbolically, it was his blood. Jesus knew the rules.
Good thing eating could no longer defile a man, according to no less an authority
than Jesus Christ.]
romans 14:3 says not to judge what another person eats/drinks i certainly dont judge what you
or anyone chooses to eat or drink..that is your choice..you should not judge me and others what we choose not to eat/drink either.
read a little further romans 14:11,12 for it is written: as i live says jehovah to me every knee
will bend down and every tongue will make open acknowledgment to god. so then each
one of us will render an account for himself to god.
[sounds like an ironclad case to shut up about food and drink-
which, according to you, somehow includes transfusions, since that supposedly
was what was included in the OLD rules that included food and drink.]
romans 14:14: only where a man considers something to be defiled to him is defiled.
it wasnt man that decided that blood was wrong to eat or drink it was god that
decided that.so here i dont think they were necessarily talking about blood.
[You seem reluctant to actually post the relevant verses...]
starbird x x x
Romans 14
The Weak and the Strong
1Accept him whose faith is weak, without passing judgment on disputable matters. 2One man's faith allows him to eat everything, but another man, whose faith is weak, eats only vegetables. 3The man who eats everything must not look down on him who does not, and the man who does not eat everything must not condemn the man who does, for God has accepted him. 4Who are you to judge someone else's servant? To his own master he stands or falls. And he will stand, for the Lord is able to make him stand.
5One man considers one day more sacred than another; another man considers every day alike. Each one should be fully convinced in his own mind. 6He who regards one day as special, does so to the Lord. He who eats meat, eats to the Lord, for he gives thanks to God; and he who abstains, does so to the Lord and gives thanks to God. 7For none of us lives to himself alone and none of us dies to himself alone. 8If we live, we live to the Lord; and if we die, we die to the Lord. So, whether we live or die, we belong to the Lord.
9For this very reason, Christ died and returned to life so that he might be the Lord of both the dead and the living. 10You, then, why do you judge your brother? Or why do you look down on your brother? For we will all stand before God's judgment seat. 11It is written:
" 'As surely as I live,' says the Lord,
'every knee will bow before me;
every tongue will confess to God.' "[a] 12So then, each of us will give an account of himself to God.
13Therefore let us stop passing judgment on one another. Instead, make up your mind not to put any stumbling block or obstacle in your brother's way. 14As one who is in the Lord Jesus, I am fully convinced that no food is unclean in itself. But if anyone regards something as unclean, then for him it is unclean. 15If your brother is distressed because of what you eat, you are no longer acting in love. Do not by your eating destroy your brother for whom Christ died. 16Do not allow what you consider good to be spoken of as evil. 17For the kingdom of God is not a matter of eating and drinking, but of righteousness, peace and joy in the Holy Spirit, 18because anyone who serves Christ in this way is pleasing to God and approved by men.
19Let us therefore make every effort to do what leads to peace and to mutual edification. 20Do not destroy the work of God for the sake of food. All food is clean, but it is wrong for a man to eat anything that causes someone else to stumble. 21It is better not to eat meat or drink wine or to do anything else that will cause your brother to fall.
22So whatever you believe about these things keep between yourself and God. Blessed is the man who does not condemn himself by what he approves. 23But the man who has doubts is condemned if he eats, because his eating is not from faith; and everything that does not come from faith is sin.
===========
Romans 14
Principles of Conscience
1Now accept the one who is weak in faith, but not for the purpose of passing judgment on his opinions.
3The one who eats is not to regard with contempt the one who does not eat, and the one who does not eat is not to judge the one who eats, for God has accepted him.
4Who are you to judge the servant of another? To his own master he stands or falls; and he will stand, for the Lord is able to make him stand.
5(I)One person regards one day above another, another regards every day alike Each person must be fully convinced in his own mind.
6He who observes the day, observes it for the Lord, and he who eats, does so for the Lord, for he gives thanks to God; and he who eats not, for the Lord he does not eat, and gives thanks to God.
7For not one of us lives for himself, and not one dies for himself;
8for if we live, we live for the Lord, or if we die, we die for the Lord; therefore whether we live or die, we are the Lord's.
9For to this end Christ died and lived again, that He might be Lord both of the dead and of the living.
10But you, why do you judge your brother? Or you again, why do you regard your brother with contempt? For (Q)we will all stand before the judgment seat of God.
11For it is written,
"®AS I LIVE, SAYS THE LORD, EVERY KNEE SHALL BOW TO ME,
AND EVERY TONGUE SHALL GIVE PRAISE TO GOD."
12So then each one of us will give an account of himself to God.
13Therefore let us not judge one another anymore, but rather determine this--not to put an obstacle or a stumbling block in a brother's way.
14I know and am convinced in the Lord Jesus that nothing is unclean in itself; but to him who thinks anything to be unclean, to him it is unclean.
15For if because of food your brother is hurt, you are no longer walking according to love Do not destroy with your food him for whom Christ died.
16Therefore do not let what is for you a good thing be spoken of as evil;
17for the kingdom of God is not eating and drinking, but righteousness and peace and joy in the Holy Spirit.
18For he who in this way serves Christ is acceptable to God and approved by men.
19So thenwe pursue the things which make for peace and the building up of one another.
2-Do not tear down the work of God for the sake of food All things indeed are clean, but they are evil for the man who eats and gives offense.
21It is good not to eat meat or to drink wine, or to do anything by which your brother stumbles.
22The faith which you have, have as your own conviction before God. Happy is he who does not condemn himself in what he approves.
23But he who doubts is condemned if he eats, because his eating is not from faith; and whatever is not from faith is sin.
=================
Romans 14
New International Version (NIV)
Romans 14
The Weak and the Strong
1Accept him whose faith is weak, without passing judgment on disputable matters. 2One man's faith allows him to eat everything, but another man, whose faith is weak, eats only vegetables. 3The man who eats everything must not look down on him who does not, and the man who does not eat everything must not condemn the man who does, for God has accepted him. 4Who are you to judge someone else's servant? To his own master he stands or falls. And he will stand, for the Lord is able to make him stand.
5One man considers one day more sacred than another; another man considers every day alike. Each one should be fully convinced in his own mind. 6He who regards one day as special, does so to the Lord. He who eats meat, eats to the Lord, for he gives thanks to God; and he who abstains, does so to the Lord and gives thanks to God. 7For none of us lives to himself alone and none of us dies to himself alone. 8If we live, we live to the Lord; and if we die, we die to the Lord. So, whether we live or die, we belong to the Lord.
9For this very reason, Christ died and returned to life so that he might be the Lord of both the dead and the living. 10You, then, why do you judge your brother? Or why do you look down on your brother? For we will all stand before God's judgment seat. 11It is written:
" 'As surely as I live,' says the Lord,
'every knee will bow before me;
every tongue will confess to God.' " 12So then, each of us will give an account of himself to God.
13Therefore let us stop passing judgment on one another. Instead, make up your mind not to put any stumbling block or obstacle in your brother's way. 14As one who is in the Lord Jesus, I am fully convinced that no food is unclean in itself. But if anyone regards something as unclean, then for him it is unclean. 15If your brother is distressed because of what you eat, you are no longer acting in love. Do not by your eating destroy your brother for whom Christ died. 16Do not allow what you consider good to be spoken of as evil. 17For the kingdom of God is not a matter of eating and drinking, but of righteousness, peace and joy in the Holy Spirit, 18because anyone who serves Christ in this way is pleasing to God and approved by men.
19Let us therefore make every effort to do what leads to peace and to mutual edification. 20Do not destroy the work of God for the sake of food. All food is clean, but it is wrong for a man to eat anything that causes someone else to stumble. 21It is better not to eat meat or drink wine or to do anything else that will cause your brother to fall.
22So whatever you believe about these things keep between yourself and God. Blessed is the man who does not condemn himself by what he approves. 23But the man who has doubts is condemned if he eats, because his eating is not from faith; and everything that does not come from faith is sin.
3The one who eats is not to regard with contempt the one who does not eat, and the one who does not eat is not to (F)judge the one who eats, for God has accepted him.
4Who are you to judge the servant of another? To his own master he stands or falls; and he will stand, for the Lord is able to make him stand.
5One person regards one day above another, another regards every day alike Each person must be fully convinced in his own mind.
6He who observes the day, observes it for the Lord, and he who eats, does so for the Lord, for he gives thanks to God; and he who eats not, for the Lord he does not eat, and gives thanks to God.
7For not one of us lives for himself, and not one dies for himself;
8for if we live, we live for the Lord, or if we die, we die for the Lord; therefore whether we live or die, we are the Lord's.
9For to this end Christ died and lived again, that He might be Lord both of the dead and of the living.
10But you, why do you judge your brother? Or you again, why do you regard your brother with contempt? For we will all stand before the judgment seat of God.
11For it is written,
"®AS I LIVE, SAYS THE LORD, EVERY KNEE SHALL BOW TO ME,
AND EVERY TONGUE SHALL GIVE PRAISE TO GOD."
12So then each one of us will give an account of himself to God.
13Therefore let us not judge one another anymore, but rather determine this--not to put an obstacle or a stumbling block in a brother's way.
14I know and am convinced in the Lord Jesus that nothing is unclean in itself; but to him who thinks anything to be unclean, to him it is unclean.
15For if because of food your brother is hurt, you are no longer walking according to love Do not destroy with your food him for whom Christ died.
16Therefore do not let what is for you a good thing be spoken of as evil;
17for the kingdom of God is not eating and drinking, but righteousness and peace and joy in the Holy Spirit.
18For he who in this way serves Christ is acceptable to God and approved by men.
19So then we pursue the things which make for peace and the building up of one another.
20Do not tear down the work of God for the sake of food All things indeed are clean, but they are evil for the man who eats and gives offense.
21It is good not to eat meat or to drink wine, or to do anything by which your brother stumbles.
22The faith which you have, have as your own conviction before God. Happy is he whodoes not condemn himself in what he approves.
23But he who doubts is condemned if he eats, because his eating is not from faith; and whatever is not from faith is sin.
===================
New King James Version (NKJV)
Romans 14
The Law of Liberty
1 Receive one who is weak in the faith, but not to disputes over doubtful things. 2 For one believes he may eat all things, but he who is weak eats only vegetables. 3 Let not him who eats despise him who does not eat, and let not him who does not eat judge him who eats; for God has received him. 4 Who are you to judge another’s servant? To his own master he stands or falls. Indeed, he will be made to stand, for God is able to make him stand.
5 One person esteems one day above another; another esteems every day alike. Let each be fully convinced in his own mind. 6 He who observes the day, observes it to the Lord; and he who does not observe the day, to the Lord he does not observe it. He who eats, eats to the Lord, for he gives God thanks; and he who does not eat, to the Lord he does not eat, and gives God thanks. 7 For none of us lives to himself, and no one dies to himself. 8 For if we live, we live to the Lord; and if we die, we die to the Lord. Therefore, whether we live or die, we are the Lord’s. 9 For to this end Christ died and roseand lived again, that He might be Lord of both the dead and the living. 10 But why do you judge your brother? Or why do you show contempt for your brother? For we shall all stand before the judgment seat of Christ.11 For it is written:
“ As I live, says the LORD,
Every knee shall bow to Me,
And every tongue shall confess to God.”
12 So then each of us shall give account of himself to God. 13 Therefore let us not judge one another anymore, but rather resolve this, not to put a stumbling block or a cause to fall in our brother’s way.
14 I know and am convinced by the Lord Jesus that there is nothing unclean of itself; but to him who considers anything to be unclean, to him it is unclean. 15 Yet if your brother is grieved because of your food, you are no longer walking in love. Do not destroy with your food the one for whom Christ died. 16 Therefore do not let your good be spoken of as evil; 17 for the kingdom of God is not eating and drinking, but righteousness and peace and joy in the Holy Spirit. 18 For he who serves Christ in these thingsis acceptable to God and approved by men.
19 Therefore let us pursue the things which make for peace and the things by which one may edify another. 20 Do not destroy the work of God for the sake of food. All things indeed are pure, but it is evil for the man who eats with offense. 21 It is good neither to eat meat nor drink wine nor do anything by which your brother stumbles or is offended or is made weak.22 Do you have faith?Have it to yourself before God. Happy is he who does not condemn himself in what he approves. 23 But he who doubts is condemned if he eats, because he does not eat from faith; for whatever is not from faith is sin.
=================
[There you have it in 3 different versions.
"I know and am convinced by the Lord Jesus that there is NOTHING UNCLEAN OF ITSELF."
Looks like attempts to twist the verses to get them to reverse and disallow something taken into
But it says that defilement of a man has nothing to do with anything that enters him-
and that means "regardless of the method of entry."
The words "regardless of the method of entry" aren't there,
but that is the plain English meaning of what it says when the general
word "enters" is used, as opposed to specifying "eaten" or the like.
Therefore, that which enters a man can't defile him if he eats it,
or is transfused with it,
or he inhales it,
or he gets a skin patch,
or it's administered through a suppository.
That's because it "entered" him, and Jesus categorically dismissed
all methods of entry unilaterally as methods of defilement.
Now, I can take HIS word for it, or I can take YOUR word for it.
This is not a tough decision.]
[Especially the ones Jesus said don't apply SPECIFICALLY.]
[Your quotation left something out.
Why do your verses run incomplete?
You left out abstaining from "things strangled."
Ok, so if your understanding is correct,
Jesus said it's ok, and Acts said it's not ok.
Here are the possibilities.
A) the Bible is contradictory, unreliable, and devoid of authority.
Therefore, the "no transfusion" thing is devoid of authority.
B) the Gospel reference is misunderstood.
Well, Jesus went on at length explaining.
He covered anything entering the body.
Scratch that possibility.
C) the Acts reference is misunderstood.
What makes this obvious is that the Epistles later go into why it's good
for some people to not eat, and why it's good for some people to eat-
when it's the same food both times.
The emphasis is not on the "blood", but on "things offered to idols"-
the strangled offerings and blood offered to idols.
They really weren't supposed to participate in pagan worship ceremonies
anymore, so lay off the pagan ceremonies, the oxen, the garlands,
the orgies, the offerings of things strangled, and the offerings of blood.
So, the rules didn't change in Acts, after Jesus spoke.]
[Literally or symbolically, it was his blood. Jesus knew the rules.
Good thing eating could no longer defile a man, according to no less an authority
than Jesus Christ.]
[sounds like an ironclad case to shut up about food and drink-
which, according to you, somehow includes transfusions, since that supposedly
was what was included in the OLD rules that included food and drink.]
[You seem reluctant to actually post the relevant verses...]
starbird x x x
Romans 14
The Weak and the Strong
1Accept him whose faith is weak, without passing judgment on disputable matters. 2One man's faith allows him to eat everything, but another man, whose faith is weak, eats only vegetables. 3The man who eats everything must not look down on him who does not, and the man who does not eat everything must not condemn the man who does, for God has accepted him. 4Who are you to judge someone else's servant? To his own master he stands or falls. And he will stand, for the Lord is able to make him stand.
5One man considers one day more sacred than another; another man considers every day alike. Each one should be fully convinced in his own mind. 6He who regards one day as special, does so to the Lord. He who eats meat, eats to the Lord, for he gives thanks to God; and he who abstains, does so to the Lord and gives thanks to God. 7For none of us lives to himself alone and none of us dies to himself alone. 8If we live, we live to the Lord; and if we die, we die to the Lord. So, whether we live or die, we belong to the Lord.
9For this very reason, Christ died and returned to life so that he might be the Lord of both the dead and the living. 10You, then, why do you judge your brother? Or why do you look down on your brother? For we will all stand before God's judgment seat. 11It is written:
" 'As surely as I live,' says the Lord,
'every knee will bow before me;
every tongue will confess to God.' "[a] 12So then, each of us will give an account of himself to God.
13Therefore let us stop passing judgment on one another. Instead, make up your mind not to put any stumbling block or obstacle in your brother's way. 14As one who is in the Lord Jesus, I am fully convinced that no food is unclean in itself. But if anyone regards something as unclean, then for him it is unclean. 15If your brother is distressed because of what you eat, you are no longer acting in love. Do not by your eating destroy your brother for whom Christ died. 16Do not allow what you consider good to be spoken of as evil. 17For the kingdom of God is not a matter of eating and drinking, but of righteousness, peace and joy in the Holy Spirit, 18because anyone who serves Christ in this way is pleasing to God and approved by men.
19Let us therefore make every effort to do what leads to peace and to mutual edification. 20Do not destroy the work of God for the sake of food. All food is clean, but it is wrong for a man to eat anything that causes someone else to stumble. 21It is better not to eat meat or drink wine or to do anything else that will cause your brother to fall.
22So whatever you believe about these things keep between yourself and God. Blessed is the man who does not condemn himself by what he approves. 23But the man who has doubts is condemned if he eats, because his eating is not from faith; and everything that does not come from faith is sin.
===========
Romans 14
Principles of Conscience
1Now accept the one who is weak in faith, but not for the purpose of passing judgment on his opinions.
3The one who eats is not to regard with contempt the one who does not eat, and the one who does not eat is not to judge the one who eats, for God has accepted him.
4Who are you to judge the servant of another? To his own master he stands or falls; and he will stand, for the Lord is able to make him stand.
5(I)One person regards one day above another, another regards every day alike Each person must be fully convinced in his own mind.
6He who observes the day, observes it for the Lord, and he who eats, does so for the Lord, for he gives thanks to God; and he who eats not, for the Lord he does not eat, and gives thanks to God.
7For not one of us lives for himself, and not one dies for himself;
8for if we live, we live for the Lord, or if we die, we die for the Lord; therefore whether we live or die, we are the Lord's.
9For to this end Christ died and lived again, that He might be Lord both of the dead and of the living.
10But you, why do you judge your brother? Or you again, why do you regard your brother with contempt? For (Q)we will all stand before the judgment seat of God.
11For it is written,
"®AS I LIVE, SAYS THE LORD, EVERY KNEE SHALL BOW TO ME,
AND EVERY TONGUE SHALL GIVE PRAISE TO GOD."
12So then each one of us will give an account of himself to God.
13Therefore let us not judge one another anymore, but rather determine this--not to put an obstacle or a stumbling block in a brother's way.
14I know and am convinced in the Lord Jesus that nothing is unclean in itself; but to him who thinks anything to be unclean, to him it is unclean.
15For if because of food your brother is hurt, you are no longer walking according to love Do not destroy with your food him for whom Christ died.
16Therefore do not let what is for you a good thing be spoken of as evil;
17for the kingdom of God is not eating and drinking, but righteousness and peace and joy in the Holy Spirit.
18For he who in this way serves Christ is acceptable to God and approved by men.
19So thenwe pursue the things which make for peace and the building up of one another.
2-Do not tear down the work of God for the sake of food All things indeed are clean, but they are evil for the man who eats and gives offense.
21It is good not to eat meat or to drink wine, or to do anything by which your brother stumbles.
22The faith which you have, have as your own conviction before God. Happy is he who does not condemn himself in what he approves.
23But he who doubts is condemned if he eats, because his eating is not from faith; and whatever is not from faith is sin.
=================
Romans 14
New International Version (NIV)
Romans 14
The Weak and the Strong
1Accept him whose faith is weak, without passing judgment on disputable matters. 2One man's faith allows him to eat everything, but another man, whose faith is weak, eats only vegetables. 3The man who eats everything must not look down on him who does not, and the man who does not eat everything must not condemn the man who does, for God has accepted him. 4Who are you to judge someone else's servant? To his own master he stands or falls. And he will stand, for the Lord is able to make him stand.
5One man considers one day more sacred than another; another man considers every day alike. Each one should be fully convinced in his own mind. 6He who regards one day as special, does so to the Lord. He who eats meat, eats to the Lord, for he gives thanks to God; and he who abstains, does so to the Lord and gives thanks to God. 7For none of us lives to himself alone and none of us dies to himself alone. 8If we live, we live to the Lord; and if we die, we die to the Lord. So, whether we live or die, we belong to the Lord.
9For this very reason, Christ died and returned to life so that he might be the Lord of both the dead and the living. 10You, then, why do you judge your brother? Or why do you look down on your brother? For we will all stand before God's judgment seat. 11It is written:
" 'As surely as I live,' says the Lord,
'every knee will bow before me;
every tongue will confess to God.' " 12So then, each of us will give an account of himself to God.
13Therefore let us stop passing judgment on one another. Instead, make up your mind not to put any stumbling block or obstacle in your brother's way. 14As one who is in the Lord Jesus, I am fully convinced that no food is unclean in itself. But if anyone regards something as unclean, then for him it is unclean. 15If your brother is distressed because of what you eat, you are no longer acting in love. Do not by your eating destroy your brother for whom Christ died. 16Do not allow what you consider good to be spoken of as evil. 17For the kingdom of God is not a matter of eating and drinking, but of righteousness, peace and joy in the Holy Spirit, 18because anyone who serves Christ in this way is pleasing to God and approved by men.
19Let us therefore make every effort to do what leads to peace and to mutual edification. 20Do not destroy the work of God for the sake of food. All food is clean, but it is wrong for a man to eat anything that causes someone else to stumble. 21It is better not to eat meat or drink wine or to do anything else that will cause your brother to fall.
22So whatever you believe about these things keep between yourself and God. Blessed is the man who does not condemn himself by what he approves. 23But the man who has doubts is condemned if he eats, because his eating is not from faith; and everything that does not come from faith is sin.
3The one who eats is not to regard with contempt the one who does not eat, and the one who does not eat is not to (F)judge the one who eats, for God has accepted him.
4Who are you to judge the servant of another? To his own master he stands or falls; and he will stand, for the Lord is able to make him stand.
5One person regards one day above another, another regards every day alike Each person must be fully convinced in his own mind.
6He who observes the day, observes it for the Lord, and he who eats, does so for the Lord, for he gives thanks to God; and he who eats not, for the Lord he does not eat, and gives thanks to God.
7For not one of us lives for himself, and not one dies for himself;
8for if we live, we live for the Lord, or if we die, we die for the Lord; therefore whether we live or die, we are the Lord's.
9For to this end Christ died and lived again, that He might be Lord both of the dead and of the living.
10But you, why do you judge your brother? Or you again, why do you regard your brother with contempt? For we will all stand before the judgment seat of God.
11For it is written,
"®AS I LIVE, SAYS THE LORD, EVERY KNEE SHALL BOW TO ME,
AND EVERY TONGUE SHALL GIVE PRAISE TO GOD."
12So then each one of us will give an account of himself to God.
13Therefore let us not judge one another anymore, but rather determine this--not to put an obstacle or a stumbling block in a brother's way.
14I know and am convinced in the Lord Jesus that nothing is unclean in itself; but to him who thinks anything to be unclean, to him it is unclean.
15For if because of food your brother is hurt, you are no longer walking according to love Do not destroy with your food him for whom Christ died.
16Therefore do not let what is for you a good thing be spoken of as evil;
17for the kingdom of God is not eating and drinking, but righteousness and peace and joy in the Holy Spirit.
18For he who in this way serves Christ is acceptable to God and approved by men.
19So then we pursue the things which make for peace and the building up of one another.
20Do not tear down the work of God for the sake of food All things indeed are clean, but they are evil for the man who eats and gives offense.
21It is good not to eat meat or to drink wine, or to do anything by which your brother stumbles.
22The faith which you have, have as your own conviction before God. Happy is he whodoes not condemn himself in what he approves.
23But he who doubts is condemned if he eats, because his eating is not from faith; and whatever is not from faith is sin.
===================
New King James Version (NKJV)
Romans 14
The Law of Liberty
1 Receive one who is weak in the faith, but not to disputes over doubtful things. 2 For one believes he may eat all things, but he who is weak eats only vegetables. 3 Let not him who eats despise him who does not eat, and let not him who does not eat judge him who eats; for God has received him. 4 Who are you to judge another’s servant? To his own master he stands or falls. Indeed, he will be made to stand, for God is able to make him stand.
5 One person esteems one day above another; another esteems every day alike. Let each be fully convinced in his own mind. 6 He who observes the day, observes it to the Lord; and he who does not observe the day, to the Lord he does not observe it. He who eats, eats to the Lord, for he gives God thanks; and he who does not eat, to the Lord he does not eat, and gives God thanks. 7 For none of us lives to himself, and no one dies to himself. 8 For if we live, we live to the Lord; and if we die, we die to the Lord. Therefore, whether we live or die, we are the Lord’s. 9 For to this end Christ died and roseand lived again, that He might be Lord of both the dead and the living. 10 But why do you judge your brother? Or why do you show contempt for your brother? For we shall all stand before the judgment seat of Christ.11 For it is written:
“ As I live, says the LORD,
Every knee shall bow to Me,
And every tongue shall confess to God.”
12 So then each of us shall give account of himself to God. 13 Therefore let us not judge one another anymore, but rather resolve this, not to put a stumbling block or a cause to fall in our brother’s way.
14 I know and am convinced by the Lord Jesus that there is nothing unclean of itself; but to him who considers anything to be unclean, to him it is unclean. 15 Yet if your brother is grieved because of your food, you are no longer walking in love. Do not destroy with your food the one for whom Christ died. 16 Therefore do not let your good be spoken of as evil; 17 for the kingdom of God is not eating and drinking, but righteousness and peace and joy in the Holy Spirit. 18 For he who serves Christ in these thingsis acceptable to God and approved by men.
19 Therefore let us pursue the things which make for peace and the things by which one may edify another. 20 Do not destroy the work of God for the sake of food. All things indeed are pure, but it is evil for the man who eats with offense. 21 It is good neither to eat meat nor drink wine nor do anything by which your brother stumbles or is offended or is made weak.22 Do you have faith?Have it to yourself before God. Happy is he who does not condemn himself in what he approves. 23 But he who doubts is condemned if he eats, because he does not eat from faith; for whatever is not from faith is sin.
=================
[There you have it in 3 different versions.
"I know and am convinced by the Lord Jesus that there is NOTHING UNCLEAN OF ITSELF."
Looks like attempts to twist the verses to get them to reverse and disallow something taken into
the body are a failure.]
"to keep abstaining from things sacrificed to idols AND from blood AND from things strangled
AND from fornication. if you keep yourselves from these things you will prosper.
good health to you" {acts 15:29}
i know what its says in acts the reason i didnt put the strangled and fornication bit
was because i was just making the point that the blood thing was still important to
early christians. it says all four things should be abstained from.
your other comments have been noted....as i said earlier i'll take my chances,
you take yours....
as i said i'm not judging anyone i'm not worthy to judge anyone..
although jehovahs witnesses do not donate or store their own blood for
transfusion purposes, some procedures or tests involving an individuals blood
are not so clearly in conflict with bible priciples. therefore, each individual should
make a conscientious decision as to whether to accept or reject some types
of medical procedures involving the use of his or her own blood.
starbird x x x
why not? why dont they store their own blood for transfusion purposes?
Is it not your own blood if it temererly leaves your body?
some procedures or tests involving an individuals blood
are not so clearly in conflict with bible priciples. therefore, each individual should
make a conscientious decision as to whether to accept or reject some types
of medical procedures involving the use of his or her own blood.
what type of tests involing blood?
I cant imagine this means a simple blood test to see if you are sick or not.
If they dont store thier own blood. (still asking why not?) then what procedures are you talking about?
If people are willing to do die for this rule, there must be some clearly defined rules regarding extactly what is and isnt ok to do with your OWN blood.
Hi folks. I hopped over here from another forum, invited by Roy. Interesting discussion here. It’s not often you’ll find a JW who is willing to debate their views like this. Even if Starbird isn’t the most skilled at debating, I applaud her for putting her views out to be challenged like this. That’s more than a lot of JW’s are willing to do. She’s either more confident in herself than most JW’s or she’s wrestling with some doubts herself. Either way, I think it’s great that she’s attempting to debate her views with others. It’s a start.
Starbird stated:
thousands of people also die or get diseases from having blood
While it’s true that there are some risks associated with blood transfusions and that some people do experience complications as a result, it’s very rare today. The most common problems associated with blood transfusions are hemolytic reactions, and they’re rare and usually easily treated with medication. There are risks with almost all medical interventions. There are risks with surgeries, epidurals, medications, and many medical procedures, but most allow them because the benefits outweigh the risks. The same is true with blood transfusions. By medical standards, they are very safe and the benefits of them far outweigh risks and complications. If you’d refuse a blood transfusion for the reason you stated above, it’s logically inconsistent that you would undergo any other medical procedure that carries minor risks. Yet most JW’s will accept just about any other medical advice/procedure even if it carries much greater risks.
Starbird stated:
your blood is unique to you. i may have the same blood group as you
but our blood is not the same… the bible says the soul is in the blood. and of course we now know your dna is in your blood. your blood is unique to you.
DNA is in the cells. Blood is made up of cells. So are your organs and other tissues. If you would accept someone else’s kidney, why wouldn’t you accept their blood? Again, this is another inconsistent argument, Starbird, and it’s not the reason you refuse blood. The reason you refuse blood transfusions is scriptural. It’s the scriptural interpretation of the Governing Body. It has nothing to do with DNA.
Starbird stated:
saline solution, ringers solution, and dextran can be used as plasma volume expanders, and these are readily available in hospitals. actually the risks that go with the use of blood transfusions are avoided by using these substances. the canadian anaesthetists society journal {jan 1975, p, 12} says, "the risks of blood transfusion are the advantages of plasma substitutes: avoidance of bacterial or viral infection, transfusion reactions and rh sensatization" jehovahs witnesses have no objection to the use of non blood plasma expanders.
The average JW also has very little to no knowledge about the benefits vs. risks of blood transfusions and use of other volume expanders. While you may believe blood transfusions to be scripturally wrong, you are merely parroting back your religion’s propaganda with quotes like this one above. You, Starbird, don’t have the first clue about how volume expanders are used and whether or not they are valid substitutes for blood transfusions, do you? Of course not. You’re not a medical professional, and you are not qualified to recommend medical advice without that knowledge.
Let’s look at your religion’s assertions above. “Saline solution, ringers solution, and dextran can be used as plasma volume expanders, and these are readily available in hospitals. actually the risks that go with the use of blood transfusions are avoided by using these substances.”
The problem with this statement is that blood transfusions are not merely volume expanders. Dextrose, Lactated Ringers, and Saline solutions are not substitutes for blood transfusions. Volume expanders are almost always used in conjunction with blood transfusions, and are generally used long before blood. In my 9 years as a registered nurse, 4 of which have been in critical care (ICU and ER), I have never started a blood transfusion without having already started one of the above IV solutions. Volume expanders only take you so far. Oxygen is carried to your vital organs, like your heart, brain, and kidneys through hemoglobin, which is part of the blood. It doesn’t matter how much “volume” you have if you don’t have oxygen perfusing your vital organs. In emergency situations, when a person is bleeding out rapidly, 3-4 liters of saline or ringers solution is all that is medically beneficial. Beyond that, blood is needed to keep the person alive. Giving a person a blood transfusion in an emergency does not ensure that they will live. If the injuries are too extensive, and the blood loss is greater than what is given, the person will still die. However, giving a blood transfusion often allows the doctor enough time to diagnose the injury and repair the bleed. If a person has been given 3 or 4 liters of saline solution and still has a critically low blood count, especially if they are still bleeding, a blood transfusion is needed. And blood transfusions save lives. The benefits of them, from a medical perspective, far outweigh any risks involved.
when there is severe blood loss, the greatest need is to restore the fluid volume,
our blood is over 50% water; then there are the red and white cells, and so forth
when alot of blood is lost, the body itself pours large reserves of blood cells into
the system and speeds up production of new ones.
but fluid volume is needed. plasma volume expanders can be used to fill this need.
With all due respect, Starbird, this is utter nonsense from someone who has no business giving medical advice. When there is severe blood loss, the greatest risk is that there will not be enough blood to perfuse the vital organs, and without oxygen to those organs, they will die. When a person is deprived of oxygen for more than a few minutes, brain death starts to occur, and will rapidly progress to total brain death. When a person does not have enough hemoglobin to carry the oxygen to those organs, they will die rapidly. Volume is definitely needed to carry the blood to those organs, but without hemoglobin, volume is pointless. As for pouring “large reserves of blood cells into the system” and speeding up “production of new ones,” in traumatic emergencies and with many surgeries that result in a large blood loss, this simply doesn’t happen. The only time this advice (sometimes) works is in non-emergent situations. In a situation where a person has become anemic because of a slow bleed, they might opt to try volume expanders or they might choose to “wait it out” hoping that their body will compensate. Sometimes it does and people can avoid blood transfusions. I’ve had several non-JW patients refuse blood transfusions for personal reasons. Although, in a couple cases they later accepted them because their blood count continued to drop to critical levels without improving on its own.
The point here is that the WTS does not abstain from blood because it’s medically beneficial. They abstain from blood because they believe it’s God’s law. From a medical point of view, blood transfusions are highly beneficial, especially when used in conjunction with volume expanders. Any attempt to argue why a person shouldn’t accept a blood transfusion from a medical point of view is absurd. The real reason you oppose it is because you believe it’s scripturally wrong. No twisting of medical information is going to change that.
Starbird stated:
it is a fact that more and more surgeons are more than happy and understanding these days about operating on patients without blood. and most would agree about the dangers that comes with blood.
Most surgeons would agree that there are some minimal risks associated with blood transfusions, just like there are with most other medical procedures. In fact, the risks associated with most surgeries are far greater. Doctors will acknowledge these risks and inform their patients so that they can make an informed decision, and this is true of any medical/surgical procedure, not just blood transfusions.
The reason that more surgeons are agreeable to bloodless surgery is not because it’s medically beneficial to the patient; it’s because the focus in medicine is holistic care, which means treating the individual wholly instead of simply treating one medical problem. The unique spiritual, cultural, and individual beliefs of people are taken into consideration more and more by doctors and nurses to preserve the autonomy and freedom of the patient. So many doctors are trying to work with JW’s in treating them in the way they want to be treated out of respect for their religious beliefs, but not because they think it’s medically advisable. The majority of doctors and surgeons out there would greatly prefer that JW’s accept blood transfusions so that they can give you the best medical care possible, but since you won’t accept them and because they are trying to treat you wholly, as an individual, they will do the best they can to treat you without blood.
if its not ok to eat it surely its not ok to have a strangers blood running through your veins… if you're not allowed to eat it or drink it..how is it ok to
have it pumped into your veins? god knows what is good or bad for us.
The JW’s are also opposed to cannibalism. If it’s not okay to eat another human’s flesh or organs, why is it okay to transplant another person’s flesh or organ’s into your body? By your logic, surely it’s not okay to have a stranger’s organs in your body if it’s not okay to eat them.
the general theme through the bible is that our blood is sacred.
if it wasnt a big deal, why then does he keep reminding us
to abstain from it.
Not according to the WTS. According to the WTS, the general theme of the Bible is God’s Kingdom, with Christ ruling as king. Surely you know what the theme of your own Bible is according to your own religion?
its like saying to an heroin addict, "dont snort heroin, its bad for you,
but its ok if you inject it"
either way we know heroin is bad for you which ever way it gets into
our system.. as i said if a doctor told you by eating or drinking certain substances was
bad for you do you think he would recommend putting it in your veins.
In fact, there are often times when doctors recommend various treatments for medical reasons even though they are not recommended for other reasons. Most doctors discourage the use of narcotics for pleasure, just as most discourage eating blood. They’re not healthy practices. On the other hand, most doctors commonly prescribe narcotics to treat pain under medical supervision when medically beneficial, just as they recommend taking blood transfusions when medically beneficial. JW’s forbid use of narcotics recreationally, citing scriptures about their connections to spiritism, yet take them without hesitation when medically prescribed. What’s the difference?
back then there were no blood transfusions but i bet if there had of been
it wouldnt have been acceptable for christians to have blood.
You “bet” it wouldn’t have been acceptable? Wow, and to think of how many people’s lives have been risked and lost on that wager.
these are my beliefs.....you believe in blood transfusions...i dont.
if my friends sister hadnt had a blood transfusion...she would be here today,
being a loving wife and doting mother..
A friend of mine went in for back surgery. The surgeon severed her aorta and she bled out on the operating table and died. Had she not had that surgery, she would probably be alive today. A patient I took care of had an epidural inserted 20 years earlier during surgery. Somehow the epidural left him paralyzed. Had he not consented to the epidural, he’d be walking today. Every year many people suffer complications and even fatalities because of medication errors made by doctors, nurses, and pharmacists. Perhaps we should abstain from all surgeries, epidurals, medications, and medical procedures because of the potential risks. But you don’t think that, do you? JW’s are inconsistent when they make this argument. They will accept most medical interventions despite the risks. The only time they don’t is when it conflicts with their biased religious beliefs.
Your friend’s sister is rare to experience a fatal reaction to a blood transfusion. My brother is a JW. His best friend severed his femoral artery in an accident. He was otherwise fine. He had no other injuries. He was air-cared to a level 3 trauma center and was still alive on arrival, but he was bleeding profusely. He refused a blood transfusion because he was a JW. The doctors tried volume expanders and everything else they could to save him, but it wasn’t enough. Given the nature of his injury, it’s very likely that he would have survived had he accepted the blood. Instead, at the age of 20 he left behind a young wife, baby daughter, parents, siblings, and a whole bunch of friends who loved him. My brother cried for weeks. A friend of mine hemorrhaged during childbirth. It’s extremely rare for a woman to die during childbirth today, especially with good medical care, but she refused a blood transfusion. She left behind a husband and five children because she refused the blood. Your story is a rare case. Those who die because of not taking blood are common cases.
Take responsibility for your decision to refuse blood, Starbird, and recognize it for what it is. It is not a responsible medical decision. It is a religious decision, and that’s all it is.
Starbird stated:
you know the exact same thing happened to me while i was in the thick of being a mormon,
Wow, you jumped out of the frying pan into the fire. Ouch!
why not? why dont they store their own blood for transfusion purposes?
Is it not your own blood if it temererly leaves your body?
what type of tests involing blood?
I cant imagine this means a simple blood test to see if you are sick or not.
If they dont store thier own blood. (still asking why not?) then what procedures are you talking about?
If people are willing to do die for this rule, there must be some clearly defined rules regarding extactly what is and isnt ok to do with your OWN blood.
Leonardo
no it dosnt mean blood tests..
jws have to be well informed so that they can make their own conscientious decisions.
e.g:
cell salvage...reduces blood loss..
blood is recovered during surgery from a wound or body cavity. it is washed and
filtered and then, perhaps in a continuous process returned to the patient...
hemodilution...reduces blood loss..
during surgery, blood is diverted to bags and replaced with a non-blood volume expander.
thus the blood remaining in the patient during surgery is diluted, containing fewer red blood
cells. during or at the end of surgery, the diverted blood is returned to the patient.
heart-lung-machine...maintains circulation..
blood is diverted to an atificial heart-lung machine where it is oxygenated and
directed back to the patient.
dialysis...functions as an organ.
in hemodialysis, blood circulates through a machine that filters and cleans it before
Starbird stated: The JW’s are also opposed to cannibalism. If it’s not okay to eat another human’s flesh or organs, why is it okay to transplant another person’s flesh or organ’s into your body? By your logic, surely it’s not okay to have a stranger’s organs in your body if it’s not okay to eat them.
Not according to the WTS. According to the WTS, the general theme of the Bible is God’s Kingdom, with Christ ruling as king. Surely you know what the theme of your own Bible is according to your own religion?
In fact, there are often times when doctors recommend various treatments for medical reasons even though they are not recommended for other reasons. Most doctors discourage the use of narcotics for pleasure, just as most discourage eating blood. They’re not healthy practices. On the other hand, most doctors commonly prescribe narcotics to treat pain under medical supervision when medically beneficial, just as they recommend taking blood transfusions when medically beneficial. JW’s forbid use of narcotics recreationally, citing scriptures about their connections to spiritism, yet take them without hesitation when medically prescribed. What’s the difference?
You “bet” it wouldn’t have been acceptable? Wow, and to think of how many people’s lives have been risked and lost on that wager.
A friend of mine went in for back surgery. The surgeon severed her aorta and she bled out on the operating table and died. Had she not had that surgery, she would probably be alive today. A patient I took care of had an epidural inserted 20 years earlier during surgery. Somehow the epidural left him paralyzed. Had he not consented to the epidural, he’d be walking today. Every year many people suffer complications and even fatalities because of medication errors made by doctors, nurses, and pharmacists. Perhaps we should abstain from all surgeries, epidurals, medications, and medical procedures because of the potential risks. But you don’t think that, do you? JW’s are inconsistent when they make this argument. They will accept most medical interventions despite the risks. The only time they don’t is when it conflicts with their biased religious beliefs.
Your friend’s sister is rare to experience a fatal reaction to a blood transfusion. My brother is a JW. His best friend severed his femoral artery in an accident. He was otherwise fine. He had no other injuries. He was air-cared to a level 3 trauma center and was still alive on arrival, but he was bleeding profusely. He refused a blood transfusion because he was a JW. The doctors tried volume expanders and everything else they could to save him, but it wasn’t enough. Given the nature of his injury, it’s very likely that he would have survived had he accepted the blood. Instead, at the age of 20 he left behind a young wife, baby daughter, parents, siblings, and a whole bunch of friends who loved him. My brother cried for weeks. A friend of mine hemorrhaged during childbirth. It’s extremely rare for a woman to die during childbirth today, especially with good medical care, but she refused a blood transfusion. She left behind a husband and five children because she refused the blood. Your story is a rare case. Those who die because of not taking blood are common cases.
Take responsibility for your decision to refuse blood, Starbird, and recognize it for what it is. It is not a responsible medical decision. It is a religious decision, and that’s all it is.
Starbird stated:
Wow, you jumped out of the frying pan into the fire. Ouch!
Nad
[/quote
wow they really hurt you didnt they:
whos to say your brothers friend would have survived with a blood transfusion.
no one can say..if he was bleeding that much..
my uncle was stabbed and was also bleeding profusely all the blood in the uk wouldnt
have saved him..
its not ok to have other peoples organs..
by general theme i meant on the blood issue because someone had said that it was
done away with in the new testament..so i was pointing out that the theme on blood
went all through the bible..i know what the theme of my bible is..it should be the same
as yours. my friends sisters case isnt isolated thousands of people are infected with
diseases through having blood transfusions..
who can say what people would die through not having a blood transfusion.
ok perhaps the heroin example was not very good but you get the general idea
of what i'm saying....street heroin isnt good which ever way it gets there..
say cleaning fluid then ..its not a good idea to drink it so it wouldnt be a good idea
to have it your veins either..
i do take responsability for not wanting blood..i never said it wasnt a religious decision.
it is a religious decision...my religious decision.
i had many ouches and burns before...
being raised c of e...and all the other farcical churches i went to and being
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Oakspear
I am not locked into any particular doctrine these days, and have reconsidered my position on many things after a good discussion in the doctrinal forum. I've also gotten others to consider their own beliefs by asking questions and pointing out what I consider inconsistancies.
The point of the doctrinal forum is not to beat others into submission to one's own beliefs, or to billboard one's pet doctrine. It's to discuss. After being in what I now consider a cult for many years, I also enjoy analyzing doctrines of The Way, and Christianity in general, that I once accepted without question. On an intellectual level I enjoy the give and take, the debate, the honing of logical skills and critical thinking abilities.
I've also learned to be respectful of others' beliefs. Cman can tell you that he and I got on each others' case a few months back, but we both learned soemthing about the other's writing styles and thought processes. Dmiller and I are as different as can be, yet we respect each other and learn from each other.
Despite our common (for most of us) background in Christianity, and in particular, the Way, this is not a Christian forum. Christians are far and away the majority, but the purpsoe of GSC is not to promote Christianity (nor to denigate it).
I've been a part of GSC, if not fron day one, then from pretty early on, at least week one
, and doctrinal is one of my favorite places.
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Belle
It's logic, my dear. Jesus (and the apostles) all say that the law is done away with - this is merely ONE example - Jesus is clearly saying that it's not what a person eats that matters - it's what's in his heart. If Jesus doesn't give a whit about what people eat, then why does the JW church?
NOT WHAT ENTERS INTO HIS MOUTH DEFILES A MAN..... If you're going to equate a blood transfusion with "eating blood", then here is only one of many verses where Jesus says that what a person "eats" is not important.
Sounds like the JW's are teaching their own legalism and "doctrines of man" while lying and twisting scripture to make people believe that it's a command of God - you posted it right there in black & white:
This is the exact same example used on the JW sites -
Furthermore, your scriptural proof is from the wrong administration:
You already violate that which you preach to be wrong
It is a scientific fact that blood cannot be completely removed from any living thing that is used for food. Virtually everyone that eats meat or its by-products has "eaten" a large amount of blood during their lifetime. This means that virtually every Watchtower Society members -- unless they are strict vegetarians -- has consumed a large quantity of animal blood during their lifetime.
Totally irrelevant to the discussion, then - why even bother bringing it up?
Actually, all things on this doctrine are NOT religious. Just look around - it's actually not the case.
It's John 6:53-ff, sorry about that.
That's exactly what your church is doing. They can not prove from the Bible that a blood transfusion is evil. It takes great leaps of logic and denial of common sense to come to the conclusion that they have about blood.
This is why they've already changed their stance many times. They can not back it up under scrutiny.
Mark 7:15
There is nothing from without a man, that entering into him can defile him: but the things which come out of him, those are they that defile the man.
Nothing entering into a man (through his mouth nor through his veins) can defile him. Why is that so hard to understand? Is Jesus a liar? Do you just "ignore" verses like this because they don't support your argument?
1Cr 10:23
All things are lawful for me, but all things are not expedient: all things are lawful for me, but all things edify not.
According to this, accepting a blood transfusion to stay alive would be not only lawful, but expedient.... and, like Bramble's case, edifying indeed.
1Cr 10:27
If any of them that believe not bid you [to a feast], and ye be disposed to go; whatsoever is set before you, eat, asking no question for conscience sake.
So, this is wrong? Let's just ignore this verse because it doesn't fit with what you want to believe?
1Cr 10:29
Conscience, I say, not thine own, but of the other: for why is my liberty judged of another [man's] conscience?
Who the heck is the JW board of "right reverend so & so's" to tell anyone what to do with their lives and own personal healthcare?
Romans 14:3-ff (some excerpted)
For one believeth that he may eat all things: another, who is weak, eateth herbs.
Let not him that eateth despise him that eateth not; and let not him which eateth not judge him that eateth: for God hath received him.
Who art thou that judgest another man's servant? to his own master he standeth or falleth. Yea, he shall be holden up: for God is able to make him stand.
One man esteemeth one day above another: another esteemeth every day [alike]. Let every man be fully persuaded in his own mind.
But why dost thou judge thy brother? or why dost thou set at nought thy brother? for we shall all stand before the judgment seat of Christ.
Clearly, we are no longer under the law. Clearly, we are able (and expected) to eat and drink as we so choose. Clearly, it's not what we eat that will be judged. Clearly, we are not to judge one another.
Romans 14:14
I know, and am persuaded by the Lord Jesus, that [there is] nothing unclean of itself: but to him that esteemeth any thing to be unclean, to him [it is] unclean.
How many verses FOR THE CURRENT ADMINISTRATION do you need in order to contradict the handfull of MOSAIC LAW verses?
edited because of formatting
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cman
Well Oaks, I don't remember whatever it was back then, so we move on I reckon.
And I'll second Chas' comment.
So while you-starbird, can believe what you want.
You can't convince someone else of the same belief at your will.
Nor should you ride anyone's case about not believing what you believe.
Bramble has testified that a transfusion saved a life.
You have testified that a transfusion killed one.
So how is it that one discounts or annuls the other or calls it wrong?
What you think is said in the bible about blood,
may not be what you understand it to be.
Do you think that's possible?
And there could be more of an understanding of it then can be grasped at this time.
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Oakspear
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krys
I would be interested in a study where the term "blood" refers to heredity. I imagene that would be quite revealing too.
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Combination
Star cant pull out scriptural reasonings to back her position, because basically there are none.
Just a couple single scriptures from Acts cut out of context.
Someone suggested that, once seriously challenged, she is robotic with her responses and has no power of reasoning and counterarguement, Well, be not TOO harsh upon her, she can only do that she has been trained to do.
I think the refutations, and scriptural counterpoints posted in this thread have clearly defeated the view that God bans blood transfussions.
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Belle
Been there ~ done that ~ got the t-shirt for "brainless defense of defenseless doctrines"
That's why I've engaged Starbird where I might not normally. This is a safe place for her to practice defending what she claims to believe. There aren't any JW's here to 'turn her in' or try to figure out who she is. Defending what she's been taught in her own words and, if she would actually do some of her own research and thinking, she may come to accept that just maybe the JW's doctrine isn't perfect and that, just maybe, just maybe, they're actually - gasp! - wrong about some things.
It's those people who challenged me while I was still in the thick of way-brain doctrines that have come to my remembrance at times when I began clearing the fog from my brain. As I kept questioning and defending the TWI doctrine, I kept running into roadblocks in my own ability to defend it. Eventually, I had to admit that the problem was with the doctrines I was trying to defend.
A lot of folks here can discuss, debate and argue without letting emotions get too involved or heated - we're mostly willing to debate and discuss things with the mindset that we've certainly been proven wrong once already, wouldn't be surprised if it happened again. But you'll have to do a darn good job of convincing and proving that the current position is incorrect. So far, Starbird hasn't even come close, imo.
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starbird
mark 7:15 dosnt say mouth and viens....
you are saying that the blood thing is just old mosaic law and all these scriptures here
say its ok basically to do all the things that were once wrong..
"for the holy spirit and we ourselves have favoured adding no further burden to you
EXCEPT THESE NECESSARY THINGS to keep abstaining from things sacrificed to idols
AND from blood....{acts 15:28,29}
so here the early christians did view this issue as still important.
john 6:53. are you saying you litrally drink jesus's blood...and eat his flesh.
do you think that jesus meant this litrally...
"as they continued eating jesus took a loaf and after saying a blessing he broke
it and giving it to the disciples, he said "take eat this means my body
also he took a cup and having given thanks he gave it to them saying drink out of it
all you for this means my blood of the covenant which is to be poured out in behalf of
many for forgivness of sins" {matthew 26:26-28}
romans 14:3 says not to judge what another person eats/drinks i certainly dont judge what you
or anyone chooses to eat or drink..that is your choice..you should not judge me and others what we choose not to eat/drink either.
read a little further romans 14:11,12 for it is written: as i live says jehovah to me every knee
will bend down and every tongue will make open acknowledgment to god. so then each
one of us will render an account for himself to god.
romans 14:14: only where a man considers something to be defiled to him is defiled.
it wasnt man that decided that blood was wrong to eat or drink it was god that
decided that.so here i dont think they were necessarily talking about blood.
starbird x x x
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Lizzy
I agree with every word you wrote.
Blood transfusions save lives in emergency situations and this is good even if you should die later because of one. I think though that is hardly ever the case.
Every day of life is a precious gift.
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starbird
why thanks belle for engaging with me where you might not normally. this place safe...you are kidding. i'm not claiming to believe, i do believe. so if i were catholic there wouldnt be a problem?
for they defend what they are taught, as do methodists and others.i did lots and lots of research and thinking...in other so called religions i belonged to..thats what lead me to the jws..
you know the exact same thing happened to me while i was in the thick of being a mormon,
this fog began clearing from my brain, as i kept questioning and defending their doctrine.
i too kept running into roadblocks in my ability to defend it.
as i said before im bound to talk in a way thats in line with my beliefs.
you believe in the trinity- i dont..you believe we go to heaven when we die - i dont.
you believe blood is ok - i dont..
its obvious i'm not going to talk as a catholic...because thats not the doctrine i follow.
i'm sorry if you find me robotic and not very passionate..
but you're wrong on that & i'm very passionate about what i believe..and yes i'll defend it.
the same as you all defend what you believe here.
but when others say what they believe..nobody bats an eyelid..but when i do well thats it..
in for the kill..
starbird x x x
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Belle
Actually, yes, there would be a problem.... if you want to call it a problem when others engage you in a debate over what you believe. :D ANY belief is likely to be challenged here because we all believe different things. It's all good, Starbird. I didn't mean to insult you with that ... there are just so many different beliefs and schools of thought that we all challenge each other here to some degree. It either makes you more convinced or causes you to consider the validity of what you believe. Either way... it's all good.
That's awesome and I hope that you continue to keep that skeptical and high level of standards for what you believe and why you believe it. :)
dunno where you got that, 'cause I don't. ;)
dunno where you got that, 'cause I don't. ;) Not in the "traditional" sense anyway.
I believe that refusing medical solutions to saving life is evil. I believe that your stance on blood transfusions unnecessarily puts people at risk who might otherwise be saved by utilizing modern medicine and the techniques is suicide. I believe that suicide is wrong. So, yes, I believe that blood transfusions save lives... people who accept blood transfusions and die would have died anyway.... so, yes, I think it's nuts and against God's will to refuse a blood transfusion when it's available and possible to save your life.
Furthermore, I don't think you can prove, using scripture, that God would expect or demand that His kids commit suicide, including by refusing blood transfusions.
I think you're very passionate, Starbird, I just think you're just as duped as we were. I think you're taking a man's word for what the Bible says instead of really and truly investigating it on its own merits and against common sense. I've been there, so I do think I know why you unquestioningly support what they've taught you, but I also have hope and believe that you're posting here because deep down, you doubt their teachings. You WANT to be challenged to think about what you've been taught. You KNOW it doesn't line up with an "All loving" God that you've been taught to believe in... or for some other unknown, personal reason. :)
You don't know what I believe, Darling. ;) For all you know, I could merely be playing Devil's Advocate just trying to get you to think.
THAT'S not true in the least! Post anything here and it will be challenged because of the diversity of beliefs and the stellar scholars in different aspects of religion, belief systems, history and theology that are so prevalent at the Cafe.
Ask Mark, our most popular Catholic. Ask Templelady, our most popular Mormon. Ask SirGuess, our most popular Mystic/Spiritualist. Ask Roy.... Ask Allen.... Ask Mike...... Ask TheInvisibleDan.....
We're all challenged, Sweetheart. :) It's what this forum is for... Exchanging thoughts, beliefs and whatnot. If you don't want or don't expect to be challenged then you're in the wrong booth.
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year2027
God first
Beloved starbird
God loves you my dear friend
I wish I could show some of the things that happen to me here and on differ sites
here when I first came I wrote a post trying to get others to put God first at the top of there post
I all most left but because of a few loving people I saw its ok if I do it but I have no right to tell others to do it
Over on the EX-JW I wrote the year I believe Christ will come back and they can say anything there but over time they saw I care and do not push my believes or at least I try not too and I became welcome
When I begin written "with love and a holy kiss blowing your way Roy" On some other sites of so called christians they wanted to stone me and I was called names
Now my beliefs are nothing like the doctrines of any well known church
and too me the Way and JW are just churches
but that enough of that
I want to ask you to think about one verse.
Matt 4:7 Jesus said unto him, It is written again, Thou shalt not tempt the Lord thy God.
ok a person is going to die without a blood transfusions or a pint of blood who does not try by receiving what he needs.
Is that person tempting God by not trying?
but think on these for a while my friend
thank you
with love and a holy kiss blowing your way Roy
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cman
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Leonardo
Starbird I have a question for you.
Would the JWs allow a member have his OWN blood stored for an emergancy?
Leonardo
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WordWolf
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WordWolf
[DUUUHHHH.
But it says that defilement of a man has nothing to do with anything that enters him-
and that means "regardless of the method of entry."
The words "regardless of the method of entry" aren't there,
but that is the plain English meaning of what it says when the general
word "enters" is used, as opposed to specifying "eaten" or the like.
Therefore, that which enters a man can't defile him if he eats it,
or is transfused with it,
or he inhales it,
or he gets a skin patch,
or it's administered through a suppository.
That's because it "entered" him, and Jesus categorically dismissed
all methods of entry unilaterally as methods of defilement.
Now, I can take HIS word for it, or I can take YOUR word for it.
This is not a tough decision.]
[Especially the ones Jesus said don't apply SPECIFICALLY.][Your quotation left something out.
Why do your verses run incomplete?
You left out abstaining from "things strangled."
Ok, so if your understanding is correct,
Jesus said it's ok, and Acts said it's not ok.
Here are the possibilities.
A) the Bible is contradictory, unreliable, and devoid of authority.
Therefore, the "no transfusion" thing is devoid of authority.
B) the Gospel reference is misunderstood.
Well, Jesus went on at length explaining.
He covered anything entering the body.
Scratch that possibility.
C) the Acts reference is misunderstood.
What makes this obvious is that the Epistles later go into why it's good
for some people to not eat, and why it's good for some people to eat-
when it's the same food both times.
The emphasis is not on the "blood", but on "things offered to idols"-
the strangled offerings and blood offered to idols.
They really weren't supposed to participate in pagan worship ceremonies
anymore, so lay off the pagan ceremonies, the oxen, the garlands,
the orgies, the offerings of things strangled, and the offerings of blood.
So, the rules didn't change in Acts, after Jesus spoke.]
[Literally or symbolically, it was his blood. Jesus knew the rules.Good thing eating could no longer defile a man, according to no less an authority
than Jesus Christ.]
[sounds like an ironclad case to shut up about food and drink-
which, according to you, somehow includes transfusions, since that supposedly
was what was included in the OLD rules that included food and drink.]
[You seem reluctant to actually post the relevant verses...]starbird x x x
Romans 14
The Weak and the Strong
1Accept him whose faith is weak, without passing judgment on disputable matters. 2One man's faith allows him to eat everything, but another man, whose faith is weak, eats only vegetables. 3The man who eats everything must not look down on him who does not, and the man who does not eat everything must not condemn the man who does, for God has accepted him. 4Who are you to judge someone else's servant? To his own master he stands or falls. And he will stand, for the Lord is able to make him stand.
5One man considers one day more sacred than another; another man considers every day alike. Each one should be fully convinced in his own mind. 6He who regards one day as special, does so to the Lord. He who eats meat, eats to the Lord, for he gives thanks to God; and he who abstains, does so to the Lord and gives thanks to God. 7For none of us lives to himself alone and none of us dies to himself alone. 8If we live, we live to the Lord; and if we die, we die to the Lord. So, whether we live or die, we belong to the Lord.
9For this very reason, Christ died and returned to life so that he might be the Lord of both the dead and the living. 10You, then, why do you judge your brother? Or why do you look down on your brother? For we will all stand before God's judgment seat. 11It is written:
" 'As surely as I live,' says the Lord,
'every knee will bow before me;
every tongue will confess to God.' "[a] 12So then, each of us will give an account of himself to God.
13Therefore let us stop passing judgment on one another. Instead, make up your mind not to put any stumbling block or obstacle in your brother's way. 14As one who is in the Lord Jesus, I am fully convinced that no food is unclean in itself. But if anyone regards something as unclean, then for him it is unclean. 15If your brother is distressed because of what you eat, you are no longer acting in love. Do not by your eating destroy your brother for whom Christ died. 16Do not allow what you consider good to be spoken of as evil. 17For the kingdom of God is not a matter of eating and drinking, but of righteousness, peace and joy in the Holy Spirit, 18because anyone who serves Christ in this way is pleasing to God and approved by men.
19Let us therefore make every effort to do what leads to peace and to mutual edification. 20Do not destroy the work of God for the sake of food. All food is clean, but it is wrong for a man to eat anything that causes someone else to stumble. 21It is better not to eat meat or drink wine or to do anything else that will cause your brother to fall.
22So whatever you believe about these things keep between yourself and God. Blessed is the man who does not condemn himself by what he approves. 23But the man who has doubts is condemned if he eats, because his eating is not from faith; and everything that does not come from faith is sin.
===========
Romans 14
Principles of Conscience
1Now accept the one who is weak in faith, but not for the purpose of passing judgment on his opinions.
2©One person has faith that he may eat all things, but he who is weak eats vegetables only.
3The one who eats is not to regard with contempt the one who does not eat, and the one who does not eat is not to judge the one who eats, for God has accepted him.
4Who are you to judge the servant of another? To his own master he stands or falls; and he will stand, for the Lord is able to make him stand.
5(I)One person regards one day above another, another regards every day alike Each person must be fully convinced in his own mind.
6He who observes the day, observes it for the Lord, and he who eats, does so for the Lord, for he gives thanks to God; and he who eats not, for the Lord he does not eat, and gives thanks to God.
7For not one of us lives for himself, and not one dies for himself;
8for if we live, we live for the Lord, or if we die, we die for the Lord; therefore whether we live or die, we are the Lord's.
9For to this end Christ died and lived again, that He might be Lord both of the dead and of the living.
10But you, why do you judge your brother? Or you again, why do you regard your brother with contempt? For (Q)we will all stand before the judgment seat of God.
11For it is written,
"®AS I LIVE, SAYS THE LORD, EVERY KNEE SHALL BOW TO ME,
AND EVERY TONGUE SHALL GIVE PRAISE TO GOD."
12So then each one of us will give an account of himself to God.
13Therefore let us not judge one another anymore, but rather determine this--not to put an obstacle or a stumbling block in a brother's way.
14I know and am convinced in the Lord Jesus that nothing is unclean in itself; but to him who thinks anything to be unclean, to him it is unclean.
15For if because of food your brother is hurt, you are no longer walking according to love Do not destroy with your food him for whom Christ died.
16Therefore do not let what is for you a good thing be spoken of as evil;
17for the kingdom of God is not eating and drinking, but righteousness and peace and joy in the Holy Spirit.
18For he who in this way serves Christ is acceptable to God and approved by men.
19So thenwe pursue the things which make for peace and the building up of one another.
2-Do not tear down the work of God for the sake of food All things indeed are clean, but they are evil for the man who eats and gives offense.
21It is good not to eat meat or to drink wine, or to do anything by which your brother stumbles.
22The faith which you have, have as your own conviction before God. Happy is he who does not condemn himself in what he approves.
23But he who doubts is condemned if he eats, because his eating is not from faith; and whatever is not from faith is sin.
=================
Romans 14
New International Version (NIV)
Romans 14
The Weak and the Strong
1Accept him whose faith is weak, without passing judgment on disputable matters. 2One man's faith allows him to eat everything, but another man, whose faith is weak, eats only vegetables. 3The man who eats everything must not look down on him who does not, and the man who does not eat everything must not condemn the man who does, for God has accepted him. 4Who are you to judge someone else's servant? To his own master he stands or falls. And he will stand, for the Lord is able to make him stand.
5One man considers one day more sacred than another; another man considers every day alike. Each one should be fully convinced in his own mind. 6He who regards one day as special, does so to the Lord. He who eats meat, eats to the Lord, for he gives thanks to God; and he who abstains, does so to the Lord and gives thanks to God. 7For none of us lives to himself alone and none of us dies to himself alone. 8If we live, we live to the Lord; and if we die, we die to the Lord. So, whether we live or die, we belong to the Lord.
9For this very reason, Christ died and returned to life so that he might be the Lord of both the dead and the living. 10You, then, why do you judge your brother? Or why do you look down on your brother? For we will all stand before God's judgment seat. 11It is written:
" 'As surely as I live,' says the Lord,
'every knee will bow before me;
every tongue will confess to God.' " 12So then, each of us will give an account of himself to God.
13Therefore let us stop passing judgment on one another. Instead, make up your mind not to put any stumbling block or obstacle in your brother's way. 14As one who is in the Lord Jesus, I am fully convinced that no food is unclean in itself. But if anyone regards something as unclean, then for him it is unclean. 15If your brother is distressed because of what you eat, you are no longer acting in love. Do not by your eating destroy your brother for whom Christ died. 16Do not allow what you consider good to be spoken of as evil. 17For the kingdom of God is not a matter of eating and drinking, but of righteousness, peace and joy in the Holy Spirit, 18because anyone who serves Christ in this way is pleasing to God and approved by men.
19Let us therefore make every effort to do what leads to peace and to mutual edification. 20Do not destroy the work of God for the sake of food. All food is clean, but it is wrong for a man to eat anything that causes someone else to stumble. 21It is better not to eat meat or drink wine or to do anything else that will cause your brother to fall.
22So whatever you believe about these things keep between yourself and God. Blessed is the man who does not condemn himself by what he approves. 23But the man who has doubts is condemned if he eats, because his eating is not from faith; and everything that does not come from faith is sin.
New International Version (NIV)
Copyright © 1973, 1978, 1984 by International Bible Society
New American Standard Bible (NASB)
Romans 14
Principles of Conscience
1Now accept the one who is weak in faith, but not for the purpose of passing judgment on his opinions.
2©One person has faith that he may eat all things, but he who is weak eats vegetables only.
3The one who eats is not to regard with contempt the one who does not eat, and the one who does not eat is not to (F)judge the one who eats, for God has accepted him.
4Who are you to judge the servant of another? To his own master he stands or falls; and he will stand, for the Lord is able to make him stand.
5One person regards one day above another, another regards every day alike Each person must be fully convinced in his own mind.
6He who observes the day, observes it for the Lord, and he who eats, does so for the Lord, for he gives thanks to God; and he who eats not, for the Lord he does not eat, and gives thanks to God.
7For not one of us lives for himself, and not one dies for himself;
8for if we live, we live for the Lord, or if we die, we die for the Lord; therefore whether we live or die, we are the Lord's.
9For to this end Christ died and lived again, that He might be Lord both of the dead and of the living.
10But you, why do you judge your brother? Or you again, why do you regard your brother with contempt? For we will all stand before the judgment seat of God.
11For it is written,
"®AS I LIVE, SAYS THE LORD, EVERY KNEE SHALL BOW TO ME,
AND EVERY TONGUE SHALL GIVE PRAISE TO GOD."
12So then each one of us will give an account of himself to God.
13Therefore let us not judge one another anymore, but rather determine this--not to put an obstacle or a stumbling block in a brother's way.
14I know and am convinced in the Lord Jesus that nothing is unclean in itself; but to him who thinks anything to be unclean, to him it is unclean.
15For if because of food your brother is hurt, you are no longer walking according to love Do not destroy with your food him for whom Christ died.
16Therefore do not let what is for you a good thing be spoken of as evil;
17for the kingdom of God is not eating and drinking, but righteousness and peace and joy in the Holy Spirit.
18For he who in this way serves Christ is acceptable to God and approved by men.
19So then we pursue the things which make for peace and the building up of one another.
20Do not tear down the work of God for the sake of food All things indeed are clean, but they are evil for the man who eats and gives offense.
21It is good not to eat meat or to drink wine, or to do anything by which your brother stumbles.
22The faith which you have, have as your own conviction before God. Happy is he whodoes not condemn himself in what he approves.
23But he who doubts is condemned if he eats, because his eating is not from faith; and whatever is not from faith is sin.
===================
New King James Version (NKJV)
Romans 14
The Law of Liberty
1 Receive one who is weak in the faith, but not to disputes over doubtful things. 2 For one believes he may eat all things, but he who is weak eats only vegetables. 3 Let not him who eats despise him who does not eat, and let not him who does not eat judge him who eats; for God has received him. 4 Who are you to judge another’s servant? To his own master he stands or falls. Indeed, he will be made to stand, for God is able to make him stand.
5 One person esteems one day above another; another esteems every day alike. Let each be fully convinced in his own mind. 6 He who observes the day, observes it to the Lord; and he who does not observe the day, to the Lord he does not observe it. He who eats, eats to the Lord, for he gives God thanks; and he who does not eat, to the Lord he does not eat, and gives God thanks. 7 For none of us lives to himself, and no one dies to himself. 8 For if we live, we live to the Lord; and if we die, we die to the Lord. Therefore, whether we live or die, we are the Lord’s. 9 For to this end Christ died and roseand lived again, that He might be Lord of both the dead and the living. 10 But why do you judge your brother? Or why do you show contempt for your brother? For we shall all stand before the judgment seat of Christ.11 For it is written:
“ As I live, says the LORD,
Every knee shall bow to Me,
And every tongue shall confess to God.”
12 So then each of us shall give account of himself to God. 13 Therefore let us not judge one another anymore, but rather resolve this, not to put a stumbling block or a cause to fall in our brother’s way.
14 I know and am convinced by the Lord Jesus that there is nothing unclean of itself; but to him who considers anything to be unclean, to him it is unclean. 15 Yet if your brother is grieved because of your food, you are no longer walking in love. Do not destroy with your food the one for whom Christ died. 16 Therefore do not let your good be spoken of as evil; 17 for the kingdom of God is not eating and drinking, but righteousness and peace and joy in the Holy Spirit. 18 For he who serves Christ in these thingsis acceptable to God and approved by men.
19 Therefore let us pursue the things which make for peace and the things by which one may edify another. 20 Do not destroy the work of God for the sake of food. All things indeed are pure, but it is evil for the man who eats with offense. 21 It is good neither to eat meat nor drink wine nor do anything by which your brother stumbles or is offended or is made weak.22 Do you have faith?Have it to yourself before God. Happy is he who does not condemn himself in what he approves. 23 But he who doubts is condemned if he eats, because he does not eat from faith; for whatever is not from faith is sin.
=================
[There you have it in 3 different versions.
"I know and am convinced by the Lord Jesus that there is NOTHING UNCLEAN OF ITSELF."
Looks like attempts to twist the verses to get them to reverse and disallow something taken into
the body are a failure.]
Edited by WordWolfLink to comment
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starbird
although jehovahs witnesses do not donate or store their own blood for
transfusion purposes, some procedures or tests involving an individuals blood
are not so clearly in conflict with bible priciples. therefore, each individual should
make a conscientious decision as to whether to accept or reject some types
of medical procedures involving the use of his or her own blood.
starbird x x x
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starbird
"to keep abstaining from things sacrificed to idols AND from blood AND from things strangled
AND from fornication. if you keep yourselves from these things you will prosper.
good health to you" {acts 15:29}
i know what its says in acts the reason i didnt put the strangled and fornication bit
was because i was just making the point that the blood thing was still important to
early christians. it says all four things should be abstained from.
your other comments have been noted....as i said earlier i'll take my chances,
you take yours....
as i said i'm not judging anyone i'm not worthy to judge anyone..
its my belief so i wrote a post about it..
its not your belief..thats fine.
starbird x
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Leonardo
Is it not your own blood if it temererly leaves your body?
what type of tests involing blood?
I cant imagine this means a simple blood test to see if you are sick or not.
If they dont store thier own blood. (still asking why not?) then what procedures are you talking about?
If people are willing to do die for this rule, there must be some clearly defined rules regarding extactly what is and isnt ok to do with your OWN blood.
Leonardo
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The Bard Child
Some how I find this amusing.
I thought the law about not ingesting blood was about, human and animal sacrifices? Ya know, not to kill and virgin and drink her blood?
How did you get "No transfusions?" from that? And from Jewish text, and I think Jews are allowed to have blood transfusions.
As a daughter of an EMS and Blood Donor, I'm curious.
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Naddia
Hi folks. I hopped over here from another forum, invited by Roy. Interesting discussion here. It’s not often you’ll find a JW who is willing to debate their views like this. Even if Starbird isn’t the most skilled at debating, I applaud her for putting her views out to be challenged like this. That’s more than a lot of JW’s are willing to do. She’s either more confident in herself than most JW’s or she’s wrestling with some doubts herself. Either way, I think it’s great that she’s attempting to debate her views with others. It’s a start.
Starbird stated:
While it’s true that there are some risks associated with blood transfusions and that some people do experience complications as a result, it’s very rare today. The most common problems associated with blood transfusions are hemolytic reactions, and they’re rare and usually easily treated with medication. There are risks with almost all medical interventions. There are risks with surgeries, epidurals, medications, and many medical procedures, but most allow them because the benefits outweigh the risks. The same is true with blood transfusions. By medical standards, they are very safe and the benefits of them far outweigh risks and complications. If you’d refuse a blood transfusion for the reason you stated above, it’s logically inconsistent that you would undergo any other medical procedure that carries minor risks. Yet most JW’s will accept just about any other medical advice/procedure even if it carries much greater risks.Starbird stated:
DNA is in the cells. Blood is made up of cells. So are your organs and other tissues. If you would accept someone else’s kidney, why wouldn’t you accept their blood? Again, this is another inconsistent argument, Starbird, and it’s not the reason you refuse blood. The reason you refuse blood transfusions is scriptural. It’s the scriptural interpretation of the Governing Body. It has nothing to do with DNA.
Starbird stated:
The average JW also has very little to no knowledge about the benefits vs. risks of blood transfusions and use of other volume expanders. While you may believe blood transfusions to be scripturally wrong, you are merely parroting back your religion’s propaganda with quotes like this one above. You, Starbird, don’t have the first clue about how volume expanders are used and whether or not they are valid substitutes for blood transfusions, do you? Of course not. You’re not a medical professional, and you are not qualified to recommend medical advice without that knowledge.Let’s look at your religion’s assertions above. “Saline solution, ringers solution, and dextran can be used as plasma volume expanders, and these are readily available in hospitals. actually the risks that go with the use of blood transfusions are avoided by using these substances.”
The problem with this statement is that blood transfusions are not merely volume expanders. Dextrose, Lactated Ringers, and Saline solutions are not substitutes for blood transfusions. Volume expanders are almost always used in conjunction with blood transfusions, and are generally used long before blood. In my 9 years as a registered nurse, 4 of which have been in critical care (ICU and ER), I have never started a blood transfusion without having already started one of the above IV solutions. Volume expanders only take you so far. Oxygen is carried to your vital organs, like your heart, brain, and kidneys through hemoglobin, which is part of the blood. It doesn’t matter how much “volume” you have if you don’t have oxygen perfusing your vital organs. In emergency situations, when a person is bleeding out rapidly, 3-4 liters of saline or ringers solution is all that is medically beneficial. Beyond that, blood is needed to keep the person alive. Giving a person a blood transfusion in an emergency does not ensure that they will live. If the injuries are too extensive, and the blood loss is greater than what is given, the person will still die. However, giving a blood transfusion often allows the doctor enough time to diagnose the injury and repair the bleed. If a person has been given 3 or 4 liters of saline solution and still has a critically low blood count, especially if they are still bleeding, a blood transfusion is needed. And blood transfusions save lives. The benefits of them, from a medical perspective, far outweigh any risks involved.
With all due respect, Starbird, this is utter nonsense from someone who has no business giving medical advice. When there is severe blood loss, the greatest risk is that there will not be enough blood to perfuse the vital organs, and without oxygen to those organs, they will die. When a person is deprived of oxygen for more than a few minutes, brain death starts to occur, and will rapidly progress to total brain death. When a person does not have enough hemoglobin to carry the oxygen to those organs, they will die rapidly. Volume is definitely needed to carry the blood to those organs, but without hemoglobin, volume is pointless. As for pouring “large reserves of blood cells into the system” and speeding up “production of new ones,” in traumatic emergencies and with many surgeries that result in a large blood loss, this simply doesn’t happen. The only time this advice (sometimes) works is in non-emergent situations. In a situation where a person has become anemic because of a slow bleed, they might opt to try volume expanders or they might choose to “wait it out” hoping that their body will compensate. Sometimes it does and people can avoid blood transfusions. I’ve had several non-JW patients refuse blood transfusions for personal reasons. Although, in a couple cases they later accepted them because their blood count continued to drop to critical levels without improving on its own.
The point here is that the WTS does not abstain from blood because it’s medically beneficial. They abstain from blood because they believe it’s God’s law. From a medical point of view, blood transfusions are highly beneficial, especially when used in conjunction with volume expanders. Any attempt to argue why a person shouldn’t accept a blood transfusion from a medical point of view is absurd. The real reason you oppose it is because you believe it’s scripturally wrong. No twisting of medical information is going to change that.
Starbird stated:
Most surgeons would agree that there are some minimal risks associated with blood transfusions, just like there are with most other medical procedures. In fact, the risks associated with most surgeries are far greater. Doctors will acknowledge these risks and inform their patients so that they can make an informed decision, and this is true of any medical/surgical procedure, not just blood transfusions.
The reason that more surgeons are agreeable to bloodless surgery is not because it’s medically beneficial to the patient; it’s because the focus in medicine is holistic care, which means treating the individual wholly instead of simply treating one medical problem. The unique spiritual, cultural, and individual beliefs of people are taken into consideration more and more by doctors and nurses to preserve the autonomy and freedom of the patient. So many doctors are trying to work with JW’s in treating them in the way they want to be treated out of respect for their religious beliefs, but not because they think it’s medically advisable. The majority of doctors and surgeons out there would greatly prefer that JW’s accept blood transfusions so that they can give you the best medical care possible, but since you won’t accept them and because they are trying to treat you wholly, as an individual, they will do the best they can to treat you without blood.
Nad
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Naddia
Starbird stated:
The JW’s are also opposed to cannibalism. If it’s not okay to eat another human’s flesh or organs, why is it okay to transplant another person’s flesh or organ’s into your body? By your logic, surely it’s not okay to have a stranger’s organs in your body if it’s not okay to eat them.Not according to the WTS. According to the WTS, the general theme of the Bible is God’s Kingdom, with Christ ruling as king. Surely you know what the theme of your own Bible is according to your own religion?
In fact, there are often times when doctors recommend various treatments for medical reasons even though they are not recommended for other reasons. Most doctors discourage the use of narcotics for pleasure, just as most discourage eating blood. They’re not healthy practices. On the other hand, most doctors commonly prescribe narcotics to treat pain under medical supervision when medically beneficial, just as they recommend taking blood transfusions when medically beneficial. JW’s forbid use of narcotics recreationally, citing scriptures about their connections to spiritism, yet take them without hesitation when medically prescribed. What’s the difference?You “bet” it wouldn’t have been acceptable? Wow, and to think of how many people’s lives have been risked and lost on that wager.
A friend of mine went in for back surgery. The surgeon severed her aorta and she bled out on the operating table and died. Had she not had that surgery, she would probably be alive today. A patient I took care of had an epidural inserted 20 years earlier during surgery. Somehow the epidural left him paralyzed. Had he not consented to the epidural, he’d be walking today. Every year many people suffer complications and even fatalities because of medication errors made by doctors, nurses, and pharmacists. Perhaps we should abstain from all surgeries, epidurals, medications, and medical procedures because of the potential risks. But you don’t think that, do you? JW’s are inconsistent when they make this argument. They will accept most medical interventions despite the risks. The only time they don’t is when it conflicts with their biased religious beliefs.Your friend’s sister is rare to experience a fatal reaction to a blood transfusion. My brother is a JW. His best friend severed his femoral artery in an accident. He was otherwise fine. He had no other injuries. He was air-cared to a level 3 trauma center and was still alive on arrival, but he was bleeding profusely. He refused a blood transfusion because he was a JW. The doctors tried volume expanders and everything else they could to save him, but it wasn’t enough. Given the nature of his injury, it’s very likely that he would have survived had he accepted the blood. Instead, at the age of 20 he left behind a young wife, baby daughter, parents, siblings, and a whole bunch of friends who loved him. My brother cried for weeks. A friend of mine hemorrhaged during childbirth. It’s extremely rare for a woman to die during childbirth today, especially with good medical care, but she refused a blood transfusion. She left behind a husband and five children because she refused the blood. Your story is a rare case. Those who die because of not taking blood are common cases.
Take responsibility for your decision to refuse blood, Starbird, and recognize it for what it is. It is not a responsible medical decision. It is a religious decision, and that’s all it is.
Starbird stated:
Wow, you jumped out of the frying pan into the fire. Ouch!
Nad
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starbird
no it dosnt mean blood tests..
jws have to be well informed so that they can make their own conscientious decisions.
e.g:
cell salvage...reduces blood loss..
blood is recovered during surgery from a wound or body cavity. it is washed and
filtered and then, perhaps in a continuous process returned to the patient...
hemodilution...reduces blood loss..
during surgery, blood is diverted to bags and replaced with a non-blood volume expander.
thus the blood remaining in the patient during surgery is diluted, containing fewer red blood
cells. during or at the end of surgery, the diverted blood is returned to the patient.
heart-lung-machine...maintains circulation..
blood is diverted to an atificial heart-lung machine where it is oxygenated and
directed back to the patient.
dialysis...functions as an organ.
in hemodialysis, blood circulates through a machine that filters and cleans it before
returning it to the patient.
epidural blood patch...stops spinal fluid leakage...
a small amount of the patients own blood is injected into the membrane surrounding the
spinal cord. it is used to seal a puncture site that is leaking spinal fluid.
plasmapheresis..treats illness..
blood is withdrawn and filtered to remove the plasma,a plasma substitute is added
, and the blood is returned to the patient. some doctors may use plasma from another
person to replace that from the patients blood. if so this is unacceptable for jehovahs witnesses.
labeling or tagging...diagnoses or treats illness..
some blood is withdrawn mixed with medicine and returned to the patient.
the length of time ones blood is outside the body may vary.
platelet gel; autologous{meaning made from your own blood}..seals wounds, reduces bleeding
some blood is withdrawn and concentrated into a solution rich in platelets and white cells
this solution is applied on surgical sites or wounds..
{in some formulations a clotting factor taken from cows blood is used}so before having
this treatment this would have to be checked
the reason for not storing own blood is the amount of time it might be stored outside the body.
the flow being interupted..again this would be a personal decision of conscience.
it is each ones own decision on what treatment to recieve {apart from someone elses blood}
and no one is critisized for what ever decision they come to..the decision must be our
own..{apart from someone elses blood} "each one will carry his own load" of responsability.
{gal.6:4,5}
starbird x x x
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