no one is saying you can't discuss *your* beliefs however I think what is missing here is *why* this is your belief...
it seems to me, who has posted counter points to your posts, that you don't wish to engage in any debate or dialog - you just harp on about your beliefs, with no personal validation behind them. It almost seems robotic and hollow, which is too bad, because as someone who has come across this issue in the workplace (a hospital), I would have thought there would be more information, history, etc. behind it. It seems more like an empty drum you're beating on and not a solid truth you've witnessed in your life, save two friends who have declined blood.
You are more than welcome to post your beliefs but I think you're credibility is waning with your lack of personalization with each post, I'm sorry to say.
no one is saying you can't discuss *your* beliefs however I think what is missing here is *why* this is your belief...
it seems to me, who has posted counter points to your posts, that you don't wish to engage in any debate or dialog - you just harp on about your beliefs, with no personal validation behind them. It almost seems robotic and hollow, which is too bad, because as someone who has come across this issue in the workplace (a hospital), I would have thought there would be more information, history, etc. behind it. It seems more like an empty drum you're beating on and not a solid truth you've witnessed in your life, save two friends who have declined blood.
You are more than welcome to post your beliefs but I think you're credibility is waning with your lack of personalization with each post, I'm sorry to say.
so the long and short of it is whole blood from another person is unacceptable
some other componants extracted from blood {ie non blood products}
that is up to the individual person..and their concsience..
Sorry dear but things extracted from blood are blood products.A Non blood product would come from other sources like chemicals and medical compounds.Not blood.
Haven't figured out how to answer my question, have you? Just how would my husband and family have been better off if he had bled out on the operating table, as Your God Wills?
Why would your God want a young man dead rather than to accept a blood transfusion? What is so bad about a blood transfusion? Because some people get illnesses from tainted blood? Some people don't. Plus, he was dying!
Some health care workers get ill from contactrwith infectious patients--say an accidental blood stick. Maybe they should quit working in health care?
It is just easier to ignore the inconvenient facts.
Just another cruel hoop for people to jump through to prove themselves to some legalistic group and diety, IMO.
Haven't figured out how to answer my question, have you? Just how would my husband and family have been better off if he had bled out on the operating table, as Your God Wills?
Why would your God want a young man dead rather than to accept a blood transfusion? What is so bad about a blood transfusion? Because some people get illnesses from tainted blood? Some people don't. Plus, he was dying!
Some health care workers get ill from contactrwith infectious patients--say an accidental blood stick. Maybe they should quit working in health care?
It is just easier to ignore the inconvenient facts.
Just another cruel hoop for people to jump through to prove themselves to some legalistic group and diety, IMO.
hi bramble,
whos to say that he would not have been saved if they had used the other products mentioned
{plasma volume expanders} mentioned earlier on
these have been used time and time again with excellent results.
not only on jehovahs witnesses but others who refuse blood..
years ago people didnt realise alot of the risks that went along with blood transfusions.
now of course we understand about the diseases that are carried in the blood.
i have a friend whos sister {before she became a jehovahs witness} had a blood transfusion
after a few years she was very poorly it turned out she had contracted CJD through the blood
transfusion..she died a horrible death..its a form of mad cows disease. her brain went to mush
basically..she was only 42 and a mother of 3.
its like a game of russian roulette.
it is a fact that more and more surgeons are more than happy and understanding these days
about operating on patients without blood.
and most would agree about the dangers that comes with blood.
Not every surgery can be bloodless, Starbird. Especially not emergency surguries on accident victims with severe internal injuries.
You still haven't answered why my husband's life and our family's lives would have been better off if they hadn't given him transfusions, and he died that day, as your 'godly' law demands...because you can't. I doubt very much that a small town er in the late 60's had all your new fangled blood products that are okay to your God. So, by your law, his family should have let him die...your God's Will and all.
Starbird, I honestly tried to engage you in a discussion. But, I really only have so much patience and your total lack of any sort of conversational skills has grown wearisome. It has nothing to do with who has or hasn't posted on the thread, although I am very thankful to have made so many good friends here. It's your lack of counter points to any of the issues, verses, questions, etc. posed by myself and others on the thread that has caused me to lose interest in anything you have to say.
You persist in merely repeating almost word for word what's been programmed into your brain by your church. There's no reasoning skills required for that and it's obvious that you don't really even know what you're talking about given that most of the information that you have posted is inaccurate. We recognize it all too easily here at the cafe because many of us, at one time, did the same thing. If you can't/won't reason, apply logic and actually respond to the questions here, then what's the point?
I just don't see any reason to waste my time when you're not going to read what I wrote - respond to the actual posts or even acknowledge them. *shrug* Can you tell me why I should behave otherwise?
Even you, Starbird, who believes and lives by this 'law' has to tip toe around it. You bring up a few cases to show how this law benefits humans...but you just can't come out and say it, can you.
Because it is stark and hard and cruel.
A person is better off DEAD than to take a blood transfusion. This is what your God Wants.
So, my husband and family would somehow be better off by following this law? Hmmpf.
So wrestle your mind around to accept it, folks. It is how to please God. Just obey. On judgement day, you'll get the benefit...
oh and i aint selling anything.. this is the doctrine forum.... right...
oh so i can discuss everyone elses doctrines....but not the ones i believe in...oh ..ok
starbird
To follow up on what dmiller said, the doctrinal section is basically a place to debate beliefs. If you throw something onto the pile, it's more or less understood that it will be questioned and critiqued.
The expectation is that ideas and beliefs will be discussed, explained, and that we will learn from each other. Your method so far has been to post some bible verses, and when questioned to reply that it's not your opinion, it's God's. This isn't a place where you can expect to answer "Just because.." and not get jumped! For that matter, cranking out bible verses doesn't always cut it either.
Not only does everyone not agree on what specific verses mean, but some of us aren't Christian and don't accept the bible as a definitive source of truth. The doctrinal regulars are a tougher crowd than the rest of the forums.
Maybe you just need to get the feel of the place a little better.
To follow up on what dmiller said, the doctrinal section is basically a place to debate beliefs. If you throw something onto the pile, it's more or less understood that it will be questioned and critiqued.
The expectation is that ideas and beliefs will be discussed, explained, and that we will learn from each other. Your method so far has been to post some bible verses, and when questioned to reply that it's not your opinion, it's God's. This isn't a place where you can expect to answer "Just because.." and not get jumped! For that matter, cranking out bible verses doesn't always cut it either.
Not only does everyone not agree on what specific verses mean, but some of us aren't Christian and don't accept the bible as a definitive source of truth. The doctrinal regulars are a tougher crowd than the rest of the forums.
Maybe you just need to get the feel of the place a little better.
so if you're not christian or you dont believe in the bible why you on a doctrine forum.?
Then, address these points that you ignored earlier. Is it maybe too much at one time for you? Maybe we should just post one question or one point at a time?
How are you getting blood transfusions equate to eating blood? I don't see the logic there. :huh: The two are totally unrelated. On that point alone, your argument loses validity.
You're the one who brought up DNA and you use the fact that "your blood is unique to you" and contains DNA as a reason for not having a transfusion. But DNA is NOT in the blood used for transfusions.
So, why did you bring up DNA if it's not an important part of your position? On one hand you say that a blood transfusion does not change a person nor his DNA, but then you go on to say that your blood is unique to you because of DNA.
It seems like you're using the uniqueness of a person's DNA as a reason for not having a transfusion, but there is no DNA exchanged in a blood transfusion.
How do you explain John 5:53-56:
Are JW's dispensational? Is the OT not written "to us"? Or is that a moot point with the JW religion? I know for TWI doctrine, those verses in the OT are not "to us" so they aren't relevant as far as any practice goes. The tithe, however, is still relevant in TWI logic, but that's talking about giving money to the church, so of course that practice is still expected.
How do these additional verses fit with the argument against blood transfusions?
Mark 7:15
There is nothing from without a man, that entering into him can defile him: but the things which come out of him, those are they that defile the man.
Matt 15:11
Not that which goeth into the mouth defileth a man; but that which cometh out of the mouth, this defileth a man.
(Although, with a blood transfusion - one is not eating blood.)
Gal 5:18
But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law.
"Back in the day" there were groups of people who believed that drinking blood would provide supernatural powers. This is idolatry and the primary reason the practice was forbidden. A blood transfusion to save life is not idolatry.
It is a scientific fact that blood cannot be completely removed from any living thing that is used for food. Virtually everyone that eats meat or its by-products has "eaten" a large amount of blood during their lifetime. This means that virtually every Watchtower Society members -- unless they are strict vegetarians -- has consumed a large quantity of animal blood during their lifetime.
Again, I'm glad that science is able to accommodate the laws of your religion, but I think your argument for avoiding blood transfusions is without merit.
Even you, Starbird, who believes and lives by this 'law' has to tip toe around it. You bring up a few cases to show how this law benefits humans...but you just can't come out and say it, can you.
Because it is stark and hard and cruel.
A person is better off DEAD than to take a blood transfusion. This is what your God Wants.
So, my husband and family would somehow be better off by following this law? Hmmpf.
So wrestle your mind around to accept it, folks. It is how to please God. Just obey. On judgement day, you'll get the benefit...
i'm not tip toeing round anything you said your husband would be dead without having blood.
my friends sister would be alive if she hadnt had blood.
I believe Jesus Christ is not God but I beliefe in the trinity but when asked about it I am willing to tell others why I believe this way
Plus when others come up quections I am willing to change my believe
because I onced believe Jesus was God then I changed to Jesus is not God and the trinity is a lie then I changed to believe Jesus Christ is not God but of God and the trinity was miss taught and has a basic
are you willing to think you could be wrong?
most here know they been wrong before?
the JW can not all ways be right because if they were allways right there be no EX-JW sites
do you even know why they are not part of JW anymore
or do you only know JW side
one sided is no better than being dead
so be alive and open minded
maybe the JW is teaching you things they do not even understand
Then, address these points that you ignored earlier. Is it maybe too much at one time for you? Maybe we should just post one question or one point at a time?
belle you really must keep up dear
the blood thing: i have already answered the question how i see blood transfusions as bad as
eating /drinking it. on my original thread.
here it is again just for you..
if something is bad for you its bad for you..
if a doctor said that to eat a certain thing was bad for you do you think he would think it
safe if it was given to you intravieniously...
e.g
heroin is bad for you we all know that right
its like saying to an heroin addict its bad for you to snort heroin,
but if you inject it its ok it wont be bad for you then.
if something is bad for you its bad for you no matter how it gets there.
the blood thing must be important to god for him to keep warning about it.
the reason i bought up dna was just to show how our blood is unique to us. thats all.
heres that bit again..
you and i may have the same blood group/type..
but our blood is different because of the dna..it was just to say our blood is unique to each of us
thats all.
i dont think i can contribute to a post more than anyone else.
doctrine- a principle or belief; a teaching of a person school or church..
and seeing that all things on this doctrine forum are religious i'd presume...church..in this case.
john 5: only goes up to 47...so which john do you mean?
i dont see what matthew 15:11 has to do with blood..
matthew 15:8 " this people honours me with their lips yet thier heart is far
removed from me. {9} it is in vien that they keep worshiping me, because they
teach commands of men as doctrines
{10}with that he called the crowd near and said to them listen and get a sense of it
{11}not what enters into his mouth defiles a man; but what proceeds out of his mouth that defiles
a man"
if your saying this means the blood...you're saying jesus contradicted his father..
jesus here was talking about traditions eg not washing hands before a meal {matt 15:2}
read the whole conversation belle from matthew 15:1 to matthew 15:11
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starbird
i'm not hatin anybody...
i have spoke for myself here...
oh and i aint selling anything.. this is the doctrine forum.... right...
oh so i can discuss everyone elses doctrines....but not the ones i believe in...oh ..ok
starbird
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ChasUFarley
starbird -
no one is saying you can't discuss *your* beliefs however I think what is missing here is *why* this is your belief...
it seems to me, who has posted counter points to your posts, that you don't wish to engage in any debate or dialog - you just harp on about your beliefs, with no personal validation behind them. It almost seems robotic and hollow, which is too bad, because as someone who has come across this issue in the workplace (a hospital), I would have thought there would be more information, history, etc. behind it. It seems more like an empty drum you're beating on and not a solid truth you've witnessed in your life, save two friends who have declined blood.
You are more than welcome to post your beliefs but I think you're credibility is waning with your lack of personalization with each post, I'm sorry to say.
Peace.
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WordWolf
Bingo.
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Noni1974
Sorry dear but things extracted from blood are blood products.A Non blood product would come from other sources like chemicals and medical compounds.Not blood.
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Bramble
Haven't figured out how to answer my question, have you? Just how would my husband and family have been better off if he had bled out on the operating table, as Your God Wills?
Why would your God want a young man dead rather than to accept a blood transfusion? What is so bad about a blood transfusion? Because some people get illnesses from tainted blood? Some people don't. Plus, he was dying!
Some health care workers get ill from contactrwith infectious patients--say an accidental blood stick. Maybe they should quit working in health care?
It is just easier to ignore the inconvenient facts.
Just another cruel hoop for people to jump through to prove themselves to some legalistic group and diety, IMO.
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dmiller
Well -- as it's been pointed out earlier, we are NOT a homogoneous group here at GSC.
Here in the doctrinal section -- many beliefs have been discussed,
that perhaps the only person believing it was the original poster, the thread starter.
(such as seems to be the case here).
The diversity is what keeps it interesting. :)
So -- no, we would never refuse to discuss your beliefs.
And believe me -- we've discussed some real *doozies* here!
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starbird
hi bramble,
whos to say that he would not have been saved if they had used the other products mentioned
{plasma volume expanders} mentioned earlier on
these have been used time and time again with excellent results.
not only on jehovahs witnesses but others who refuse blood..
years ago people didnt realise alot of the risks that went along with blood transfusions.
now of course we understand about the diseases that are carried in the blood.
i have a friend whos sister {before she became a jehovahs witness} had a blood transfusion
after a few years she was very poorly it turned out she had contracted CJD through the blood
transfusion..she died a horrible death..its a form of mad cows disease. her brain went to mush
basically..she was only 42 and a mother of 3.
its like a game of russian roulette.
it is a fact that more and more surgeons are more than happy and understanding these days
about operating on patients without blood.
and most would agree about the dangers that comes with blood.
starbird x x x
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cman
more and more surgeons are realizing that in order to save lives
other means must be employed because of religious beliefs
there is nothing wrong with blood transfusions
you could die of most any type surgery
or not even having surgery
it's like bramble said
just another hoop to jump through
no real biblical evidence at all
and it don't matter who knew what when
what matters is saving lives
if you don't get that physically
you probably won't see it spiritually either
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Bramble
Not every surgery can be bloodless, Starbird. Especially not emergency surguries on accident victims with severe internal injuries.
You still haven't answered why my husband's life and our family's lives would have been better off if they hadn't given him transfusions, and he died that day, as your 'godly' law demands...because you can't. I doubt very much that a small town er in the late 60's had all your new fangled blood products that are okay to your God. So, by your law, his family should have let him die...your God's Will and all.
Looks cruel and unloving to me.
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starbird
erm bramble its not my law..i didnt command it...
you obviously love your husband dearly...how can i say to you that you would be better off
without him..
i can only give you what i know...
these are my beliefs.....you believe in blood transfusions...i dont.
if my friends sister hadnt had a blood transfusion...she would be here today,
being a loving wife and doting mother..
i'm not judge and jury..at the end of the day we've all got to be judged for our lives
and whos to say how we will be judged and what for..
all i know is what god commands, and i try to live by that..
starbird x x x
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Belle
Starbird, I honestly tried to engage you in a discussion. But, I really only have so much patience and your total lack of any sort of conversational skills has grown wearisome. It has nothing to do with who has or hasn't posted on the thread, although I am very thankful to have made so many good friends here. It's your lack of counter points to any of the issues, verses, questions, etc. posed by myself and others on the thread that has caused me to lose interest in anything you have to say.
You persist in merely repeating almost word for word what's been programmed into your brain by your church. There's no reasoning skills required for that and it's obvious that you don't really even know what you're talking about given that most of the information that you have posted is inaccurate. We recognize it all too easily here at the cafe because many of us, at one time, did the same thing. If you can't/won't reason, apply logic and actually respond to the questions here, then what's the point?
I just don't see any reason to waste my time when you're not going to read what I wrote - respond to the actual posts or even acknowledge them. *shrug* Can you tell me why I should behave otherwise?
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Bramble
Even you, Starbird, who believes and lives by this 'law' has to tip toe around it. You bring up a few cases to show how this law benefits humans...but you just can't come out and say it, can you.
Because it is stark and hard and cruel.
A person is better off DEAD than to take a blood transfusion. This is what your God Wants.
So, my husband and family would somehow be better off by following this law? Hmmpf.
So wrestle your mind around to accept it, folks. It is how to please God. Just obey. On judgement day, you'll get the benefit...
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Oakspear
The expectation is that ideas and beliefs will be discussed, explained, and that we will learn from each other. Your method so far has been to post some bible verses, and when questioned to reply that it's not your opinion, it's God's. This isn't a place where you can expect to answer "Just because.." and not get jumped! For that matter, cranking out bible verses doesn't always cut it either.
Not only does everyone not agree on what specific verses mean, but some of us aren't Christian and don't accept the bible as a definitive source of truth. The doctrinal regulars are a tougher crowd than the rest of the forums.
Maybe you just need to get the feel of the place a little better.
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cman
starbird - all the law is fulfilled in what?
it's not rules and laws
besides, it's not even near talking of what your religion teaches
or what you believe
but hey believe what you want
but that belief has killed people
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starbird
belle i am engaging in discussion with you i dont know how you want
me to be.
i'm not just repeating things that have been put into my head
i have a belief system so its obvious i'm going to discuss in a way thats
in line with that. the same way you have certain beliefs you discuss in line with what you
believe.
i'm not going to pretend to believe in something else just to make friends.
if you say to me
"i believe jesus is god" {just for example}
i dont believe that so i'm obviously going to disagree with you.
and say what i believe..
i give scriptures to show why i believe in certain things the same way as others do.
starbird x x x
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starbird
so if you're not christian or you dont believe in the bible why you on a doctrine forum.?
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Belle
Then, address these points that you ignored earlier. Is it maybe too much at one time for you? Maybe we should just post one question or one point at a time?
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cman
starbird-
some might say the same about you that you said about Oakspear.
Oakspear adds a very much needed voice in this section, as well as others.
and what does this really mean anyway-to you
"not christian or you dont believe in the bible "
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Belle
What do you think doctrine means, Starbird?
Why would YOU be able to contribute more to a discussion than Oakspear?
ESPECIALLY a doctrinal section of a message board for people who used to belong to the same group..... a group you were never even involved with?
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starbird
i'm not tip toeing round anything you said your husband would be dead without having blood.
my friends sister would be alive if she hadnt had blood.
starbird
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year2027
God first
Beloved starbird
God loves you my dear friend
I believe Jesus Christ is not God but I beliefe in the trinity but when asked about it I am willing to tell others why I believe this way
Plus when others come up quections I am willing to change my believe
because I onced believe Jesus was God then I changed to Jesus is not God and the trinity is a lie then I changed to believe Jesus Christ is not God but of God and the trinity was miss taught and has a basic
are you willing to think you could be wrong?
most here know they been wrong before?
the JW can not all ways be right because if they were allways right there be no EX-JW sites
do you even know why they are not part of JW anymore
or do you only know JW side
one sided is no better than being dead
so be alive and open minded
maybe the JW is teaching you things they do not even understand
we live by grace not by law after law
thank you
with love and a holy kiss blowing your way Roy
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cman
people die of many things
outlaw them all and you will not have much good medicine left
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starbird
belle you really must keep up dear
the blood thing: i have already answered the question how i see blood transfusions as bad as
eating /drinking it. on my original thread.
here it is again just for you..
if something is bad for you its bad for you..
if a doctor said that to eat a certain thing was bad for you do you think he would think it
safe if it was given to you intravieniously...
e.g
heroin is bad for you we all know that right
its like saying to an heroin addict its bad for you to snort heroin,
but if you inject it its ok it wont be bad for you then.
if something is bad for you its bad for you no matter how it gets there.
the blood thing must be important to god for him to keep warning about it.
the reason i bought up dna was just to show how our blood is unique to us. thats all.
heres that bit again..
you and i may have the same blood group/type..
but our blood is different because of the dna..it was just to say our blood is unique to each of us
thats all.
i dont think i can contribute to a post more than anyone else.
doctrine- a principle or belief; a teaching of a person school or church..
and seeing that all things on this doctrine forum are religious i'd presume...church..in this case.
john 5: only goes up to 47...so which john do you mean?
i dont see what matthew 15:11 has to do with blood..
matthew 15:8 " this people honours me with their lips yet thier heart is far
removed from me. {9} it is in vien that they keep worshiping me, because they
teach commands of men as doctrines
{10}with that he called the crowd near and said to them listen and get a sense of it
{11}not what enters into his mouth defiles a man; but what proceeds out of his mouth that defiles
a man"
if your saying this means the blood...you're saying jesus contradicted his father..
jesus here was talking about traditions eg not washing hands before a meal {matt 15:2}
read the whole conversation belle from matthew 15:1 to matthew 15:11
starbird
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cman
and there's the major part of the problem
that pretty much nails it
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