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why would you say it was cultish ?

My recollection (remember it's been about twenty years) is that it seemed to be a form of brainwashing. I also remember my friend speaking of how they "broke" him down in the seminar he sat through.

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I dunno. Maybe to me, it's something like.. purely unqualified people are performing what might be described as "brain surgery", and the advocates of the program gloss over a "few" "mistakes".

Well, not entirely unqualified. I hear they are "trained" how to recognize if somebody's having heart failure because of the pressure..

But yeah.. it's not for everyone. Spending the significant portion of a weekend throwing "weak" people off an imaginary life boat or beating a pillow, screaming "mommy mommy" isn't exactly my cup of tea..

:biglaugh:

In all fairness, there are other factors too..

but look what the "program" did to ces..

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I think "personal prophecy" and momentus met each other at a ces "fellowship".. they liked the teaching and fellowship, they courted, they dated..

and, it became a marriage made in hell..

they looked over the "money pit" of ces.. and they fell in love..

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Cults, cults, cults period. They are cult programs. (momentus) Altered state of Conciousness. The people that have taken this training walk around like zombies with a dazed look in their eye and this is the truth. They have no mind of their own, independent thinking is not allowed but wait, isn't that how God created us to think and make decisions, to have a free will. To choose to serve God. They do not know whether they are coming or going and their life revolves around this cultish program.

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I completed a seminar that was very similar to Momentus - Vision Quest - and I had an enlightening experience. It was also exhausting, and very difficult at times in places where I had to face some of the less noble or weaker parts of myself. But in the end, I learned a whole lot about myself and how to connect with God, and discoverd or rediscoverd some of the more important points about being a Christian man. It was for me a productive, positive, character building time...

That said, I would say that this type of training is not for everyone...those that are not ready might not have such fruitful experiences.

No I don't think that CES's involvement with Momentus was an example of being blown about by every wind of doctrine. I think it was an example of them realizing that CES/STFI doesn't hold all the answers - doctrinally or practically - so it is a wise thing to collaborate with others of good reputation.

CES/STFI has made a lot of mistakes, but I don't see their involvement with Momentus as a mistake. IMHO.

You don't have an opinion. You are not allowed to have a brain. You've been thinking what you were brainwashed with. That's too bad that you feel that Jesus Christ cannot transform your life.

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Can you please elaborate on what you mean in the above quote, bold section?

NOONE IS EVER READY TO TAKE THESE BRAINWASHING COURSES. We are made by God, we belong to God. God has the last say on any and all topics including this one. We don't need to be brainwashed for God to straighten out your life.

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To publicly deny promoting the programs which they have done and then privately still promote shows and incredible degree of dishonesty on the leaders parts. Why is that so hard to see?

I saw them brag about dropping the damn thing only to turn around and push it on Groucho. I doubt the freakin program works at all if it leads to this type of "spirituality" and I know it does.

I would say if Christ were the head of their organization a lot more honesty would radiate from their hollowed walls and not all this devilish, sensual, fleshy programs they like to lie about.

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I was pretty stunned to find out that CES was privately promoting Momentus and privately singing the praises. ALL the principles still believed in 2004 that Momentus was a good thing even though it had sharply divided the local group.

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Momentus Breakthrough Training attitude toward the church in general is suspicious and critical. They seem to have encountered a lot of suspicion from local churches whose members have gotten involved in Momentus. This is with good reason, I would say, and any pastor that doesn't examine their premises and practices with care is doing a disservice to the flock. They attack churches for being either "gnostic" (their code word for charismatic, experience centered) or "textualists" (a code word for doctrinally centered). While there are certainly legitimate concerns in both extremes, the impression you get from the book is that these aren't the extremes, but represent most of the American church.

This last issue may reflect another part of their spiritual heritage. At least four of the many people listed in their acknowledgments are former leaders in The Way International, a cult that drew many people out of the Jesus movement. I don't want to argue that the leaders of Mashiyach are guilty by association, but the convergence of some key doctrines certainly points to that suspicion. Among the Way's key teachings that resonate with Killing the Victim are: rejection of the Trinity, a suspicion of other churches, and the idea that believing can cause things to happen.

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i wouldn't say it is cultish. there wasn't any push to keep you as a member or anything like that. people were

free to speak their mind, and leave at anytime.

this type of training is not for all. but some do get a lot from the training. i did.

why would you say it was cultish ?

THE ABOVE is absolutely FALSE. They use high pressure tactics, including but not limited to: calling all day long, trying to get key people including "the pastor" from said church to coerce you into taking the training. VERY VERY cultish to say the least.

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FYI BREAKTHROUGH TRAINING is the new name used instead of MOMENTUS and most of the "graduates" of this training suffer from total depression after the training and it is atributed to this training. They are the strangest people, not having a mind of their own and walk around like zombies.

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FYI BREAKTHROUGH TRAINING is the new name used instead of MOMENTUS and most of the "graduates" of this training suffer from total depression after the training and it is atributed to this training. They are the strangest people, not having a mind of their own and walk around like zombies.

http://www.uia.net/~messiah7/tw_momentus.htm

http://www.uia.net/~messiah7/mom_psychtechniq.htm

http://www.uia.net/~messiah7/brk_quickq&a.htm

http://www.reiniersonneveld.nl/accd-breakthrough-EN.html

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:offtopic: A little off topic rant here, ... but, the following quote really hacks me, and illustrates Yet Another Point why folks like me have trouble with the term 'cult' and like terms, terms that many people use as tho' they are based on solid clinical logic, yet are frought with highly emotional and questionable rationale, ... _particularly_ in how said terms are applied in such a manipulative manner to have so-called 'cult members' question their thinking abilities, ... even if they have no reason to. :realmad:

You don't have an opinion. You are not allowed to have a brain. You've been thinking what you were brainwashed with. That's too bad that you feel that Jesus Christ cannot transform your life.

Really!? Is that your opinion of 'cult' participants, both current and former? Because they are/have been involved with a 'mind control cult', therefore they can't think their way out of a paper bag? ... Ohhh, but if they were part of a group that Jesus Christ approves (or so people like _you_ say), then *poof*, they can think right along with the best of them.

Really? Well, let me tell you something, my friend, I've seen _plenty_ of non-thinking done a-plenty by mainstream, orthodox, "Jesus is LORD" wannabees that would put LCM to shame in the 'turn-the-brain-irrevocably-OFF' dept. And yes, I've seen plenty of individuals, _while_ they were in TWI (and even at times in CES) who DID think and use their brains, their participation is said groups notwithstanding. ... Dare I venture a guess as to YOUR cognitive thinking abilities? ... My guess is that if I did, Paw would revoke my posting rights permanently so F-A-S-T, my head would spin. :blink:

<_<

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I kinda agree with much of your "rant"..

in my case, I stayed in the old *ministry* I don't think so much because of lack of cognitive thinking skills.. more because I was kept in the dark. Didn't have any reason to consider or question what was going on at hq..

but still, I think a person has to ask *why* this kind of "training" has such a detrimental effect on whole congregations and such..

and why people seem to voluntarily line up to be beaten mentally by less than educated second rate hacks in some kind of bizarre religious "survivor series" or something..

Edited by Ham

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I'll say what gave me a CLUE..

I was at headquarters, sometime close to when I left.. and I saw a person on staff I knew for years.. I said "you must be so BLESSED to be here.."

and the person noticeably rolled their eyes up into their head.. that really got my attention..

:biglaugh:

unfortunately, the person is still there... last I knew.

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