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a testimony from momentus site

maybe the STFI board should take this class :evildenk:

I completed a seminar that was very similar to Momentus - Vision Quest - and I had an enlightening experience. It was also exhausting, and very difficult at times in places where I had to face some of the less noble or weaker parts of myself. But in the end, I learned a whole lot about myself and how to connect with God, and discoverd or rediscoverd some of the more important points about being a Christian man. It was for me a productive, positive, character building time...

That said, I would say that this type of training is not for everyone...those that are not ready might not have such fruitful experiences.

Maybe they don't promote it anymore...but that's only because of the negative feedback and bad publicity it generated. On a personal level, both JAL and Shoenheit told me personally that they thought it was a great training program...and this was AFTER they stopped promoting it publicly.

I think that pointing out CES's involvement with momentus is a good example of their "blown about with every wind of doctrine" approach that they take to seeking spiritual "truth".

I suppose that graduating from momentus to dream prophesies was an improvement?

The blind leading the blind...

No I don't think that CES's involvement with Momentus was an example of being blown about by every wind of doctrine. I think it was an example of them realizing that CES/STFI doesn't hold all the answers - doctrinally or practically - so it is a wise thing to collaborate with others of good reputation.

CES/STFI has made a lot of mistakes, but I don't see their involvement with Momentus as a mistake. IMHO.

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I must say that it IS interesting to see the people who promoted "Momentus" having such difficulties themselves now... ...Maybe it's just a coincidence that the folks who were so heavily into this ps

I completed a seminar that was very similar to Momentus - Vision Quest - and I had an enlightening experience. It was also exhausting, and very difficult at times in places where I had to face some of the less noble or weaker parts of myself. But in the end, I learned a whole lot about myself and how to connect with God, and discoverd or rediscoverd some of the more important points about being a Christian man. It was for me a productive, positive, character building time...

That said, I would say that this type of training is not for everyone...those that are not ready might not have such fruitful experiences.

No I don't think that CES's involvement with Momentus was an example of being blown about by every wind of doctrine. I think it was an example of them realizing that CES/STFI doesn't hold all the answers - doctrinally or practically - so it is a wise thing to collaborate with others of good reputation.

CES/STFI has made a lot of mistakes, but I don't see their involvement with Momentus as a mistake. IMHO.

CES/STF has had several major mistakes: Momentus/VisionQuest used as a bludgeoning tool against people without their permission instead of a person using it on themself; Personal Prophecy is used in the same bludgeoning manner against someone like EL without her request or permission; getting in way too deep in personal and marital issues and intertwining these with the day to day relationships of the core people and the running of the ministry. I have personally enjoyed how the "leaders" can be so sinful and broken and yet remain qualified to lead, yet they can condescendingly inform others of their disqualification to serve because of their shortcomings. Then there is all of the psychoanalysis and prescribing of psychotropic drugs going on because of course you are broken, Jesus cannot heal you and you need these things just to get through your day. I wonder who pays for all of this professional help? Maybe there is lots more to come out eh?

Ya wanna come to my fellowship? PUSH, PUSH, PUSH. Hey we got a great program for ya, PUSH PUSH PUSH. Just don't expect

any results from Jesus. My shrink can help you more than him. PUSH Want some xxxxxxx man? I got a few extra. PUSH

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Then there is all of the psychoanalysis and prescribing of psychotropic drugs going on ....

tell us about the drugs being prescribed please.... and the psychoanalysis too.

Edited by rhino
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Momentus - good reputation?

Suggested research - Momentus, Dan Tochini, Lifespring church in Santa Rosa, California.

I for one will never be ready for it, call me whacky. It's a waste of good time and good money.

I'll make a confession here, and it will sound mean, but before I put this topic to bed I really have to say it -

I'm not at all surprised that these guys got involved in Momentus. They follow whatever's blowing down the cutural-media pike in any given year. This type of self-improvement stuff has been the rage for years.

If anyone really wants to get honest with themselves, contact me at socks_means_business.dot.com - I'm cheap and I can really help you to see what your problem is. Trust me - I know what I'm doing. You'll see. :biglaugh:

Edited by socks
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To publicly deny promoting the programs which they have done and then privately still promote shows and incredible degree of dishonesty on the leaders parts. Why is that so hard to see?

I saw them brag about dropping the damn thing only to turn around and push it on Groucho. I doubt the freakin program works at all if it leads to this type of "spirituality" and I know it does.

I would say if Christ were the head of their organization a lot more honesty would radiate from their hollowed walls and not all this devilish, sensual, fleshy programs they like to lie about.

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Heres the story about momentous and VQ. When ever you have a push for numbers and money there is an evil work and thats the way these are set up. Sponsors are given a piece of the take. If you are on a team you must have a list of ten people taht you want to inroll. And then there are the coaching calls asking you all about the people you are to be working with. thats were the presure comes in. And the presure is as heavy and condeming as it can get. Now there are those who like that presure and have a large shere of contacts. Most people run through thier family and thats the end of them. There is one big area that showed up real big for me and that was the more money you give the more attention you get. We ARE not created equal when it comes to this. Is it a great tool for abuse both from the giver and from the reciever. it's used as a huge control thing from both sides.

A side note, I remember the look and attitude change on MG's face when it he made a statement about an investment we were going to make , like they were looking for a good portion of it. I said it was for my family and the conversation stopped all together. Shared the experience when I got home and you can guess what our feelins and involment were after that.

I have to say that my momentus experiance was the hardest thing I ever did put had the greatest fruit. Everyone is built differant so i benifited from what happened in the training. My marrage is the best it has ever been and my kids have benifited the same way. It was something we needed and the time was right.

It's the money and numbers that makes it out of wak and cause all the desention. Well most of it. If it wasn't for the numbers and the money those that disagree with the training propably would never have been it. But the controling pressure , you could call it cult like, is it's biggest enrollment tech.

Dr Phil does the Get Real Chellange. It's the same thing.

Look anything we do has some type of need or some type of control. A great statement from the trainings. ARE YOU GIVING OR TAKING WHEN YOU DO THINGS OR COMUMICATING WITH FRIEND OR FAMILY?

Rich

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The real "irony" here is that these people (CES) promoted a class (momentus) to confront people with "reality"...most of us face reality on a daily basis with jobs, families and real life responsibilities...and these folks want to teach us about facing reality...really?

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The real "irony" here is that these people (CES) promoted a class (momentus) to confront people with "reality"...most of us face reality on a daily basis with jobs, families and real life responsibilities...and these folks want to teach us about facing reality...really?

Totally, completely, absolutely agree. There's enough 'reality' to bring to God every day without having to force some.

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Really? I'm having trouble imaging that.

-JJ

Dr. Phil had parts of it on tv several years back. He is one hard condensending trainer. Maybe try heisweb page and see if it comes up.

One thing I forgot is the techneics used in the training are many times used after on the people. It is used to control people. Your life becomes one big training. Can you spell fun! This does more damage to people. people need to process and that takes time. Sometimes years.

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The real "irony" here is that these people (CES) promoted a class (momentus) to confront people with "reality"...most of us face reality on a daily basis with jobs, families and real life responsibilities...and these folks want to teach us about facing reality...really?

That explains a whole lot. The leaders in that "group" have been so isolated from the world, that they need a CLASS to see reality.

Edited by Mr. Hammeroni
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Maybe its just my perception of Dr. Phil. I've always thought of him as kind of wimpy. A pop psychologist with more interest in internet dating than probling the depths of the human soul.

-JJ

I saw Dr Phil on some Christian program - I think James Robeson and his wife. Dr. Phil and his wife both professed some serious Christian beliefs, which was nice to hear. But from what I saw and heard, it was hard to tell how much of what Phil and wife were saying was for "sales effect" and what was from the heart.

-cs

Dr. Phil had parts of it on tv several years back. He is one hard condensending trainer. Maybe try heisweb page and see if it comes up.

One thing I forgot is the techneics used in the training are many times used after on the people. It is used to control people. Your life becomes one big training. Can you spell fun! This does more damage to people. people need to process and that takes time. Sometimes years.

I got a lot out of the training. A real lot. Some didn't get much of anything in my class. One possible problem I brought up about the training is that the same methods and exercises were being used over and over, which I thought was maybe starting to make the bread stale.

-cs

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The real "irony" here is that these people (CES) promoted a class (momentus) to confront people with "reality"...most of us face reality on a daily basis with jobs, families and real life responsibilities...and these folks want to teach us about facing reality...really?

I understand what you are saying. But there is a lot of potential good in these kinds of courses. Situations, circumstances and events in life can leave us burnt out, confused, stuck..and kind of hypnotized to a general way of being that may be stagnated or just plain ugly. Courses like Momentus or Vision Quest ( a variation of Momentus) can be helpful in getting us out of the ruts and into some better understandings and perceptions about ourselves and our lives in general.

I don't see anything wrong with a group like CES promoting Momentus. But tHe thing about these kinds of intense training courses is - people must be mature enough and ready for something like this. Talking a deeper look into the reality of ourselves and the world around us can be too much to stomach for a lot of people.

-CS

Can you please elaborate on what you mean in the above quote, bold section?

Yep, it's pretty simple. Some are not ready or willing to confront the crap that lives in them.

Got it ?

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Regarding Momentus -

I have been diagnosed as bi-polar. I took Momentus in 1994 and had not had a manic episode for 12 years.

After Momentus I ended up psychotic and hospitalized.

CES holds that position that those who had problems after Momentus had a hard time "confronting things about themselves."

I think there's a little more to it than that.

One other thing - I wasn't particularly interested in Momentus but some one I knew who took it was really motivated to get me to take it. Without being pushed by this person, I probably wouldn't have gotten involved.

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Personally, I think the "crap" that people think they have on the inside is really great beauty.

Don't get me wrong, I know people can be twisted, etc..

But I think a lot of this kind of "training" does little more than confuse someone that their uniqueness and individuality is some kind of evil, to be stamped out with 18 pound bible.

If somebody has REAL issues, they don't need momentus, they need a psychiatrist.

My opinion at least.

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Personally, I do not want, nor IMO need to have a class/instructor help me with my cognitive dissonance. As far as I can tell, I am not insane and do have a fairly logical mind...so I will deal with this on my own, thank you very much. Also, these so called life instructors are doing it mostly for the money and the enlargement of their own egos. Dr. Phil is a prime example, IMO...condescending pseudo psychology is his game, but it has made him mucho dinero. Put that together with spiritual abuse and what do you have? A religious cult.

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I must say that it IS interesting to see the people who promoted "Momentus" having such difficulties themselves now...

...Maybe it's just a coincidence that the folks who were so heavily into this psyco babble crap are seeing visions of spiders coming out of people's noses?...these same folks are now bitterly divided and even suing each other?

Yeah, right...sign me up...who do I get to throw out of the lifeboat?

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... But tHe thing about these kinds of intense training courses is - people must be mature enough and ready for something like this. Talking a deeper look into the reality of ourselves and the world around us can be too much to stomach for a lot of people.

There's another way to look at it, many people don't believe that these programs are the right way to deal with issues in their lives - it has nothing to do with their level of 'maturity' - whatever you mean by that.

CS, I'm not saying you are doing this, but it is manipulative to accuse people of not taking a program because they lack maturity and are not willing to take a 'deeper look' into their lives. I've heard this from all the multi-level marketing 'pay-per-use' psycho-babble programs, including the grandpapa of vision quest, EST.

For those unfamiliar with the foundation of Momentus, Vision Quest, Life Spring, etc etc - read about it here. It's pretty twisted and the current versions sound ~very similar~. And if you do support Momentus and did have a 'positive experience' with it, I think (IMHO) you have a responsibility to be familiar with it's roots and concepts if you're going to recommend it to others while your are representing Christ.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Erhard_Seminars_Training

Here are some testimonials on Life Spring.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lifespring

Breakthrough.

http://www.uia.net/~messiah7/tw_momentus.htm

If you think it has changed since then, read about or ask someone about Momentus / Vision Quest.

http://www.uia.net/~messiah7/rec_momensumary.htm

And now T0cchini's Breakthr0ugh Training is offered through ACCD, the Associati0n for Christian Character Devel0pment.

http://www.accd.org/index.cfm/pages/200

"The Training Series consists of the Discovery Seminar, Breakthrough Training, and The Clearing. We also offer the One Accord Workshop for married couples. Each of these unique experiential events are designed to produce maximum transformational growth in a short period of time. In addition, we have a one day workshop, Imagine.The Clearing is available to Breakthrough Grads. We also have a two day workshop for men, My Father's Eyes."

I know I'm boring, but Biblical growth always seems to look like, 'a tree planted by the river of living water.' No one likes to watch a tree grow, or paint dry, it's very boring, and also not 'maximum transformational growth' but it is in the bible, like God having people sit in a desert for 40 years, or Jesus preparing for 30 years to minister for 3.

Here is a 2007 initiative from ACCD off their website.

"Public Relations Initiative - Walk out Matthew 18 initiative for every online ACCD detractor. Prepare to litigate against those who print defamatory content about ACCD online, and are unwilling to walk out Matthew 18 regarding this offense, and proceed accordingly, as needed."

Litigation is completely against 1 Cor 6:1-8, as has come up in the CES/STFI MG discussions. Kind of disconcerting that people want to jump to litigation for online detractors, gosh, like um, hmmm... like this site has been for other groups. This is not like litigation because someone took stole your money or swiped a deed from a widow, this is people threatening to sue other Christians who were involved in the program and airing their concerns to other Christians. These are the people that DEVELOPED the program.

Yep, it's pretty simple. Some are not ready or willing to confront the crap that lives in them.

Got it ?

If and when people are ready to confront the 'crap' that lives in them churches should take a Biblical approach starting with calling on Jesus. People call Momentus a 'training course' - what does it train you in? What does it train you to do? If it is an approach to pursue Godliness is it found in the Bible? Does it replace the Bible and a relationship with Jesus? Are you instructed to do the Biblical things first, and then do this, or do them both, or primarily focus on the 'training?'

Can you picture Jesus as a Momentus trainer or attendee yelling at you and telling you to punch a pillow and yell at your parents? Honestly I cannot.

There are plenty of worldly programs that offer 'results' that have nothing to do with the Bible, and programs that claim to change believers and unbelievers alike are certainly not doing it by the transforming of their minds (biblically) or the power of the holy spirit.

Churches should teach the Bible and help people get to know Jesus.

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1broken1...Oh, c'mon now...who wants the old fashioned approach to living a Christian life when they can have intense psychological mind scrambling to send them into therapy.

Scrambled? I'll take mine over easy, Thank you very much....... :biglaugh:

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I don't want to offend the original (or other) posters either - but I do feel strongly that these programs are counter productive, and as CS noted, 'the same thing over and over.' i think it's been over and over since it was started as EST - I know strong attempts have been made to 'christianize' it, and i don't want to discount the energy and 'good intent' on that, but (IMO) it's based on a bad principles, so ultimately it's not good for people.

Here's an interesting quote from the wiki link -

"Dr. Michael Langone - Dr. Michael Langone, in an article on Large Group Awareness Trainings (LGATs) (a term which collectively refers to est, Lifespring, and similar encounter groups), states:

I know of no research, however, that convincingly demonstrates positive behavioral effects of these trainings. In my opinion, one of the best studies from a methodological standpoint was "Research on Erhard Seminar Training in a Correctional Institution" (Hosford, Ray, E., Moss, C. Scott, Cavior, Helene, & Kerish, Burton. Catalog of Selected Documents in Psychology, 1982, Manuscript #2419, American Psychological Association). Of 313 inmates who volunteered for est training in a Federal Correctional Institution, 150 were randomly selected for the training, while the balance acted as a waiting-list control group and were given scholarships to be used upon release. The groups did not differ on demographics or variables related to criminal history. They were given a full battery of psychological tests and biofeedback instruments, with half of the group pre-tested and half post-tested (to control for the possible contaminating effect of testing). Three-month and 12-month follow-ups were conducted to assess behavioral outcomes (incident reports, furloughs, work performance, etc.).

Although the psychological tests reflected some positive change, these self-report changes did not manifest themselves in alterations in physiological measures or in actual behavior. The research and anecdotal evidence seem to indicate that LGATs are very successful at producing positive opinions about the trainings — an outcome that the financial officers of every service business would value. However, whether or not they have a substantial positive effect on behavior that is not due to placebo factors, is still an unanswered question."

So the bottom line is it's psuedo-psychology that's not even taken seriously by the psychological community.

A very good source for research on LGAT's and all the MANY Lifespring spinoffs is here http://perso.orange.fr/eldon.braun/awareness/

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