thanks waysider, I certainly will be going over those articles again and again.
The revelation manifestations seem to be the most commonly taught manifestations in other churches, and not in the hooky-pook sense. The make as simple having a good gut feeling or just a lack of peace when making a decision.
As for discerning of spirits, I believe in the Advanced Class this does not always mean we see or know about some specific devil spirit (as in athletes ) But it could simply mean we (supernaturally) know the difference between a friend or foe. (I don't have my syllabus handy, but I believe they used a record involving David prior to Saul's demise)
I think they got more hype than it actually worked. I don't know if the way TWI defined and supposedly used them was the way it was intended to be used either.
In the TWI daze of VP, too many of us relied on leadership getting revy to discern who should go where for WOW and what family they should be in. Too many fatal errors were made that way and the thing with Norway wasn't the first and only incident that was squelched.
I saw too many people go off half cocked thinking God was talking to them about everything, get your keys, call this person and do that and do this, therefore putting all rational and natural decision making into a realm it didn't belong by making it supernatural. It is also a good manipulation tool to get others to see things your way or to get people to do what you want, and not just TWI did that but Christianity as a whole "God told me," or "The Spirit is leading me," or "The Lord led me." I think it can all border on taking the Lord's name in vain to USE his name and plaster it to a thought or desire of your own to get what a person wants.
Most leadership I met in the TWI had no spiritual indepth perception and awareness. I saw too many people come to twig fellowships who were problems, whether they were just mentally ill or spiritually troubled and get passed leadership who just wanted to help them and watched whole branches go sour because of these people. One time one of these people verbally attacked me and I rebuked them in the name of Jesus Christ. The lights in the room flashed and you think leadership was impressed? No. They said something was wrong here. Wrong because I acted like a believer with power from on high. Sheesh. Needless to say that person I rebuked stayed the hell away from me and never bothered me again. ;)
Let's not forget and I saw it first hand that leadership traded information on people moving from one area to another area. The leaders talked and they passed off that information when dealing with the person as if they got revy (revelation from God) Cheaters. I had seen that done time and time again.
Personally I think a person is either spiritually aware or not. No class, no speaking in tongues, no bible study, no going to every meeting you can will give that to you. Either the Divine gives it to you or doesn't. I had it long before I got to TWI and I have it after. No PFAL class no VP doctrine no nothing gave it to me and by leaving TWI I didn't lose it either.
Sometimes I think groups like TWI are the ever ellusive search for the fountain of youth, only they think it's the fountain of spiritualilty and no matter what they do, no matter what doctrine they adorn themselves with, no matter what new and improved class they form or unform, build or demolish, at best the water in that fountain that they persistently pursue will always be tainted with rust, if there is any water at all.
While I am on the subject, let me make myself more unpopular.
I have to wonder if the trading of money for a class to get the 'gift' to manisfest power isn't Simonry? You know, Simon who asked Peter to give him the gift (Simon watched the apostles perform miracles) so he could have this power too? Simon was even willing to pay up for it.
Did we pay up for it? Did we pay for a promise of power? Is TWI the Simoners and we the Simonees?? Take a class, pay for it and receive power from on high. Isn't that what set TWI apart from other ministries and churches, at least in their claims, We got the power?????????? From where? The Class! Woohoo.
Seems to me that the outer court of the temple extended into people's homes where the tables could not be over turned by Jesus, selling the issues of God for a donation at the door.
Yeah.
Gifts of Healing? Well TWI's definition only works in TWI and not all that well either. In TWI we played God and assumed everyone was to be healed and if they weren't well, they were not believing or didn't know what was available or so forth. I was just in the shower and cringed at the memories of me telling people they could be healed. My aunt who was dying of cancer, a woman whose husband was dying of cancer. OMG, forgive me please.
I may seem a bit hard hearted. Actually I am not but I will admit to being very cynical.
If I had been more cynical or more critical in my examination of life in all aspects, particularly here in the issues of spirituality I would not have been sucked in as I was, trading my power and my one on one with Divine for a High Priest named VP Wierwille and his lesser but still higher than me priests known as Leadership, trunk, limb, area and branch.
When I left TWI I read profusely about people and their experiences in their cults. One of the major major major issues I struggled with is what I thought I saw and experienced, ie God talking to me, healings for myself (nothing major mind you and the one time I had some thing major, I walked around with an unhealed broken bone).
I read a book, wish I remembered the name of it and no it was not Steve Hassan, but another guy who was in the Moonies. The odd thing, the thing that struck me deeply was that they saw 'demons and devils' trying to infiltrate their meetings and ranks and they believed that they also had the power to fight them off.
Well *I* knew Moonies were counterfeit but HOW could they think they saw such things and performed such acts as casting out devils since *they* were bogus.
I had to ask myself then what was truly real and what did I truly experience and what was just a belief system of what I was taught. I mean if you believe and are taught that the boogy man is under your bed, you will think after a while that you have seen his shadow and heard him moving under there. VP even uses this same analogy in the PFAL with being slain in the spirit. If you think you're going to go down when Pastor so and so does this with his hand or says that, you go down. You are taught what you should experience, you are taught what should happen, you are taught what you should feel and by and large, you do all that because that is what you are taught is going to happen.
So I had to ask myself about all the manifestations, about my experience. Was it real or was it a memorex response in having it happen only because I was taught it was to happen. I had to learn to retrust myself and critically examine all that I thought was godly, or supernatural or revelations. I wondered if I could ever trust myself again and be able to trust any experience I had in the future.
It was a very tough time but well worth it. I learned you can't dictate how the Divine will work in you. It can't be dictated that they will do this every single time the same way for the same person. You can't dictate how the Divine will not work. You can not regulate, predict or guesstimate or otherwise wrap the Divine up and limit the Divine to how they will interceed and work within each person's life. That is religion, man made and a small box of confinement.
I don't think, no I know that the Divine did not design us to be automated robots doing the same thing the world over.
Now it goes without saying, but those who would say, "What if the Divine tells you to jump off a bridge." I say, "Give me a break, huh?"
I never really had a problem paying for a class. (In any field, take a class and someone pays). What I have a problem with thought is the fact there is a class. Life is taught by example and one on one. It still bugs me that Advanced Class grads can't teach foundational material. It should be just that, foundational. You should just be able to go to fellowship and get that info. I can see some logic in having a class, so that everyone's been taught the same thing. But why push it so? Why does twi invest so heavily in classes? It's a waist of effort.
Yes, now that you mention it I do have loved ones still with twi who believe they've been healed but are obviously not. (are they just not believing right? )
I left in the mid 70's so I really can't speak to how it is now or was at the "end." I do remember VPW saying three things that obviously got lost. They were good things, regardless of what you think of him. These I'm sure a praphrased a bit."
1. "I would rather see the ministry fail because of too much grace and not because of law. Law just binds and hurts people. It destoys people lives."
2. "Someone should be able to go to fellowship on a regular basis and learn everything from the foundation through the advance class and more."
3. "Don't believe anything anyone says about the Word of God without checking it out for yourself....not even me."
I think these address issues mentioned in the above posts about classes and other area.
Early in this thread, someone talked about early classes where someone would play guitar and everyone whould take turns singing in tongues and interpreting , or prophesying. While we didn't do that excactly we did something like it. I remember that by the end the interpratations and prophesies were really dynomite the long we went on.
I never really had a problem paying for a class. (In any field, take a class and someone pays). What I have a problem with thought is the fact there is a class. Life is taught by example and one on one. It still bugs me that Advanced Class grads can't teach foundational material. It should be just that, foundational. You should just be able to go to fellowship and get that info. I can see some logic in having a class, so that everyone's been taught the same thing. But why push it so? Why does twi invest so heavily in classes? It's a waist of effort.
Yes, now that you mention it I do have loved ones still with twi who believe they've been healed but are obviously not. (are they just not believing right? )
I don't entirely agree with that, I think taking a class to learn more about the Bible and hearing the Gospel of Jesus Christ is totally different from taking a class in learning Power Point on your Windows computer or a class in college. I have sat through classes in certain churches and all I had to pay for was the book. I could either buy it on my own or through the church. **I only add this and my next paragraph BECAUSE it was a defense of TWI from way back when. Even VP in the old intermediate class mocks those who questioned his right to charge for the classes**
It is the motivation behind the class that counts, at least for me. To charge for a class so someone can 'received power from on high' or 'tap into the power of God' to me, even as I type it now sounds more like a marketing pyramid scheme of get rich quick or in this case, get powerful quick. In my ears when I was 18, it sounded great. In my now Crone days, it sounds as plastic and cheap as it is. I don't wonder about it being right to sell God for a price. I believe it was wrong.
And I agree, there shouldn't be a class at all. Information concerning the nature of God and Jesus Christ should be free flowing from those involved with the sect to all new comers. Why does the organization push for classes? Google terms like overload, or sensory overload. It is something like going to a hyped up sales pitch where some guy from a podium with a microphone gives a speel about his business changing your life for ever and all you have to do is invest so much money...you sit there through the hype, with hyped up people and it can be quite easy to fall for it. The good news is you go home, and you get time alone to think and mull it over. Now picture the PFAL class the way it was run. It was usually done four nights a week, three hours or less a night, one stinking break, rapt attention to the man with the skinny tie on the video screen. No talking, just sitting there listening to him drone on. All this new information being launched at you in rapid fire. Ask a question, you are told to wait. Ask at the end of the class you are told to wait till the whole class is over. Being in a type of situation where you don't talk, you just sit and listen and your brain is filled with info you never heard before, it overloads your senses. Your critical facilities can shut down and you quit thinking and just start accepting. PERFECT for TWI. It induces you to a state where information is just assimilated. Then hyped up grads greet you and give you a bunch of one liners cheering on the class. They won't answer your questions either. Go to fellowship and read the PFAL books on your off time. When do you really get time to evaluate your involvement and what you heard. It is priming ground to bring in as many as they can. It's effective, it works and it keeps the power where they want it, not in the fellowships but with them.
"While I am on the subject, let me make myself more unpopular."
---------Full Circle-------------------
Why?, because you are not afraid to open up and speak what's on your mind?
I, for one, think you brought up quite a few valid points.
I do agree with you on being told what to expect and then using that to justify an experience.
The experience I posted (#34) happened before I even knew what "revelation" was. That's why it concerned me so much and I sought the advise of the twig leader. I had been "in The Word" for only a matter of days, perhaps a week at that point. Another experience I had happened years before my involvement with TWI and involved something my Dad said to me that had to have come from somewhere other than his own thinking simply because it was so immediate and had a profoundly lasting effect. Outside of these and a few that were similar, I never really saw "The Manifestations" happening at all, especially DOS which always seemed to me to be more like the discerners' "Freudian Slip Showing".
Charging for classes: Heck! The Fu!!er Brush Man charges for brushes doesn't he?
PFAL and the rest of the classes were merely "the brushes" that TWI hawked in order to build a financial empire at the expense of their unwitting customer base.Unlike TWI,though, the Fu!!er brush man didn't try to convince you he was tapped into some holy wisdom that could change your life. He just offered a better way to clean your toilet.
Hmmm. There's an analogy hiding in there but I can't quite put it into words.
I was just reading a thread recommend to me on the old days of The Way and someone mentioned how exciting speaking in tongues and interpreting was. I've heard manifestions a thousand times and I've never been excitied about anything said, because nothing manifested was ever anything new. They seem so mundane and purposeless. I've never seen the manifestations in action that had any real meaningful impact. I've heard stories, but that's it. I still SIT at times out of habit but I honestly don't know if does anything. As far as I understand the Bible says we are to SIT. For a long to I've been goaded to prophecy BOLDLY and the latest thing was to always be ready to receive revelation. (because if something goes wrong, I was obviouly not listening to the revelation given to me).
Do people who leave TWI (and its spinoffs) continue with manifestions? Was it ever really exciting or meaningful? Does anyone have comments on what the Bible really teaches?
Bolshevik,
TWI is not the only group that believes in "manifestations on demand." I belong to other forums, and lots of people are detoxing over that type of doctrine.
Yes, I do have some thoughts about the manifestations. Do I believe they are from God?? Yes and no. (probably more 'no' than '"yes.")
I'll be back later with more thoughts, Bolshevik. This might involve a little review of my personal journey and also my biblical views to date.
Full Circle, keep posting, I'm enjoying them. Its always great to hear other opinions and perspectives. And I do understand what you're saying about Simony.
There are quite a few older threads on here about VP and his marketing scheme. From his past, I believe, when he discovered B.G. Leonard's classes, VP realized he hit the goldmine. He had looked about for years for something to sell, market, give him an edge and he found it in B.G. Leonard's classes. Unfortunately, poor old BG never thought to copyright the Bible he was teaching, so VP was able to. Eureke, goldmine for VPW. Now, just get some kids turned on and let them do the work selling it for me.
TWI was about making money for ole Vic - nothing more, nothing less. The class was his product. I believe he was a wolf in sheep's clothing.
After all, what could be more enticing to people then to have "spiritual power." Than to have God, and his power, at your command!!! God will give you what you want. Life more abundantly - in the material realm!
Thank you Sunesis for your considerate words and your perspective as well.
I do agree with you totally. I haven't checked out the extent of how much VP stole from Leonard but one of the first things I asked God to show me when I left TWI was the validity of the claim that VP makes in the class that God told VP that he (God) would teach VP the word like it hadn't been known since the first century. I then went to the local bible bookstore within days or a week of that prayer, a continuous prayer and I found Clarence Larkin's work. He was born and preaching long before VP was born and there I found essays on Fellowship and Sonship, Sonship rights, the administrations and basically the PFAL class in a nut shell.
That told me that VP lied, God did not tell him that, IT had been known, just not to me. I won't stand for liars when it comes to spiritual matters, period. To me there is no excuse.
But commenting on what you just posted as well, it was if TWI turned God into a magic genie who was compelled to grant our requests as long as we rubbed the lamp of believing. It made God a servant with no will of his own. According to TWI, he couldn't break his own law....law of believing.
Full Circle, keep posting, I'm enjoying them. Its always great to hear other opinions and perspectives. And I do understand what you're saying about Simony.
There are quite a few older threads on here about VP and his marketing scheme. From his past, I believe, when he discovered B.G. Leonard's classes, VP realized he hit the goldmine. He had looked about for years for something to sell, market, give him an edge and he found it in B.G. Leonard's classes. Unfortunately, poor old BG never thought to copyright the Bible he was teaching, so VP was able to. Eureke, goldmine for VPW. Now, just get some kids turned on and let them do the work selling it for me.
TWI was about making money for ole Vic - nothing more, nothing less. The class was his product. I believe he was a wolf in sheep's clothing.
After all, what could be more enticing to people then to have "spiritual power." Than to have God, and his power, at your command!!! God will give you what you want. Life more abundantly - in the material realm!
You're all making a lot of sense to me. He stole the youth of so many people for so many years, and here we are trying to reconcile the past with the present. Some paid the ultimate price. Some may never recover the dreams they lost. But the past is gone and I think we can only pray for each other, that our past experiences can somehow benefit our brothers and sisters in Christ and the roads we all take. I may not express it all the way it should be said, but we have to keep on trying to do our best, because we all have so much to give each other! I hope that makes some sense from the land of Islam and the microphone! Bump
I tried to respond to your pm but it wouldn't let me.
Anywho, that is how I see this forum and this thread. Sharing what we learned, even if it's negative, we need to be aware of the negative so as not to get fooled again ((for those of us who believe we were fooled)) There's all different degrees here and we all hear what we need when we need it. The past isn't gone, it still lives inside of me and makes me what I am today. The good past and the bad past all mixed together makes a Full Circle ;) and it is hard and unrealistic for me ((I am only speaking for myself but I believe it to be true in general)) to take and ignore the bad past and act like it never happened and only take the good. It makes for lopsided opinions and people. Balance is the key and something we aim for and will miss and aim again and get it and then miss and then hit the balance again. But you're right about being here and listening and helping to others speak and share is the best thing we can do for each other.
So where the heck is the land of Islam? Why did I picture you some place that resembled the Alps?
TWI's method of handling this particular section of scripture has bothered me for a long time, and really never could put my finger on it until lately...
What's intriguing to me is that Paul wrote to the Corinthians as spiritual babies, and in that context their handling of these spiritual enablements was a big concern for Paul. And it seems to me, if they were that important, Paul would have made a big deal out of them in his other letters. But he didn't.
And a further matter, for me, is that "more excellent way" that he details in chapter 13, a chapter that most people give short shrift to, IMO.
Also, I was involved with a group that sat and listened to a bootlegged copy of the class, checking with the interlinears and concordances as we listened. VPW pretty much butchered a good bit of it, particularly this section.
I also thought I would add my thoughts about the human propensity to codify spiritual stuff. I Cor. is a letter of correction, and yet many groups use Paul's correction as doctrine.
But, God being God, operates inside and outside our human boxes, which BTW cannot contain him.
Thank you for the welcome, Ca_dreaming! I've not figured out how to navigate around this particular forum to reply personally, yet!
I took the advanced class...against my better judgement, as I was quickly distancing myself from TWI at that time. I remember one leader thinking he, "Caught me" faking. In front of a class of maybe 20 folks, he had me SIT w/interpretation, again and again and again, maybe five times in a row before God told him it was me genuine! I WAS MAKING IT UP, due to peer pressure. I love to talk, I could have gone on and on if he wanted, but that wouldn't make it any more or any less genuine.
I agree the post above comparing it to hypnosis, or meditation. Although I've attended churches that encourage meditation (Unity, and "Science of Mind"), people have confided to me that they fake meditation too!
Oakspear, I love ya, but I disagree that people cannot become more fluent in tounges. I believe God operates in the spiritual realm the same way he operates in the 5 sense realm. Practicing anything would make you better. A genius musical talent (Elton John comes to my pop music mind) still may be tagged as gifted from an early age. But he still would have to take lessons and practice to become good at what he does.
Natasha:
I think people did become more "fluent" in tongues, because they thought that they should. Still, if God is supplying the words, wouldn't it be God practicing to become more fluent? Wierwille always said it was "perfect", so when you first start, it must be less than perfect?
Ever notice that the interpretations didn't get any more intricate when the tongues did?
And I've been practicing breathing for coming up on 49 years, but I think I pretty much had it down the first day and haven't got any better at it! Dueling analogies
Did anyone see the Nightline (ABC newshow) recently where there was a doctor doing research on speaking in tongues?
some people like this certain minister did it on demand, some needed some inspiration such as music. (interesting)
The minister was asked to pray with understanding and then his brain was scanned (MRI or something). Then he was asked to pray in tongues while being scanned.
The results showed that more parts of the brain were needed to pray with understanding that with tongues.
Did anyone see the Nightline (ABC newshow) recently where there was a doctor doing research on speaking in tongues?
some people like this certain minister did it on demand, some needed some inspiration such as music. (interesting)
The minister was asked to pray with understanding and then his brain was scanned (MRI or something). Then he was asked to pray in tongues while being scanned.
The results showed that more parts of the brain were needed to pray with understanding that with tongues.
Comments anyone?
It might be interesting to see this same experiment done wih someone singing the words to a song and then doing the same song in "scat".(Scat is a style of singing that employs the use of random syllables rather than words. Ella Fitzgerald was probably the most well known, though two others that come to mind are Scatman Crothers and Mel Torme.)
It might be interesting to see this same experiment done wih someone singing the words to a song and then doing the same song in "scat".(Scat is a style of singing that employs the use of random syllables rather than words. Ella Fitzgerald was probably the most well known, though two others that come to mind are Scatman Crothers and Mel Torme.)
That is interesting. Never thought of that. I wonder what other things people do like that. There may be things that don't involved words or language, maybe like a musical instrument or dancing.
I think SIT was genuine, and the interpretations, etc., but what I don't think was genuine was the words the people used in the interpretation...
Chas...
As a contemplative, I view these manifestations -- as well as all visions and communication with the divine -- as merely "bad translations" (qtd. Thomas Keating) of what cannot be adequately conveyed by the human tongue. Everything gets flitered through the (clouded) prisms of our experiences and and attitudes.
So, in that respect, I do think there was something there. But there's always something there of God. He is, and when we're aware of Him simply through being, we allow truth to be infused in us. But this truth eludes communication and is simply "knowing."
Thus, I can see how these things can be hit or miss. When we are simply still and know..., we can be more attuned to Love, and that's something that cannot be communicated, necessarily.
In our frenetic pace of day to day activity, we miss this.
Lately twi doesn't call on people to SIT, they ask for a volunteer. Usually there is one or two who jump to the occasion. Afterwords the leader wil usually point out that the readiness to SIT or Prophecy is a sign of quality in that person's life.
That's odd... I just quit attending fellowship about a month ago and there was no asking for volunteers. In fact, I haven't heard them say, "Would someone please bring forth a word of prophecy?" in years. In my area much more emphasis is put on following the leading and teaching formats. For leading, you are given a specific format in which you just fill in the blanks with your choice of song, person to pray, manifest, etc.
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Bolshevik
thanks waysider, I certainly will be going over those articles again and again.
The revelation manifestations seem to be the most commonly taught manifestations in other churches, and not in the hooky-pook sense. The make as simple having a good gut feeling or just a lack of peace when making a decision.
As for discerning of spirits, I believe in the Advanced Class this does not always mean we see or know about some specific devil spirit (as in athletes
) But it could simply mean we (supernaturally) know the difference between a friend or foe. (I don't have my syllabus handy, but I believe they used a record involving David prior to Saul's demise)
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FullCircle
The revelation manifestations.
I think they got more hype than it actually worked. I don't know if the way TWI defined and supposedly used them was the way it was intended to be used either.
In the TWI daze of VP, too many of us relied on leadership getting revy to discern who should go where for WOW and what family they should be in. Too many fatal errors were made that way and the thing with Norway wasn't the first and only incident that was squelched.
I saw too many people go off half cocked thinking God was talking to them about everything, get your keys, call this person and do that and do this, therefore putting all rational and natural decision making into a realm it didn't belong by making it supernatural. It is also a good manipulation tool to get others to see things your way or to get people to do what you want, and not just TWI did that but Christianity as a whole "God told me," or "The Spirit is leading me," or "The Lord led me." I think it can all border on taking the Lord's name in vain to USE his name and plaster it to a thought or desire of your own to get what a person wants.
Most leadership I met in the TWI had no spiritual indepth perception and awareness. I saw too many people come to twig fellowships who were problems, whether they were just mentally ill or spiritually troubled and get passed leadership who just wanted to help them and watched whole branches go sour because of these people. One time one of these people verbally attacked me and I rebuked them in the name of Jesus Christ. The lights in the room flashed and you think leadership was impressed? No. They said something was wrong here. Wrong because I acted like a believer with power from on high. Sheesh. Needless to say that person I rebuked stayed the hell away from me and never bothered me again. ;)
Let's not forget and I saw it first hand that leadership traded information on people moving from one area to another area. The leaders talked and they passed off that information when dealing with the person as if they got revy (revelation from God) Cheaters. I had seen that done time and time again.
Personally I think a person is either spiritually aware or not. No class, no speaking in tongues, no bible study, no going to every meeting you can will give that to you. Either the Divine gives it to you or doesn't. I had it long before I got to TWI and I have it after. No PFAL class no VP doctrine no nothing gave it to me and by leaving TWI I didn't lose it either.
Sometimes I think groups like TWI are the ever ellusive search for the fountain of youth, only they think it's the fountain of spiritualilty and no matter what they do, no matter what doctrine they adorn themselves with, no matter what new and improved class they form or unform, build or demolish, at best the water in that fountain that they persistently pursue will always be tainted with rust, if there is any water at all.
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FullCircle
While I am on the subject, let me make myself more unpopular.
I have to wonder if the trading of money for a class to get the 'gift' to manisfest power isn't Simonry? You know, Simon who asked Peter to give him the gift (Simon watched the apostles perform miracles) so he could have this power too? Simon was even willing to pay up for it.
Did we pay up for it? Did we pay for a promise of power? Is TWI the Simoners and we the Simonees?? Take a class, pay for it and receive power from on high. Isn't that what set TWI apart from other ministries and churches, at least in their claims, We got the power?????????? From where? The Class! Woohoo.
Seems to me that the outer court of the temple extended into people's homes where the tables could not be over turned by Jesus, selling the issues of God for a donation at the door.
Yeah.
Gifts of Healing? Well TWI's definition only works in TWI and not all that well either. In TWI we played God and assumed everyone was to be healed and if they weren't well, they were not believing or didn't know what was available or so forth. I was just in the shower and cringed at the memories of me telling people they could be healed. My aunt who was dying of cancer, a woman whose husband was dying of cancer. OMG, forgive me please.
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FullCircle
Okay here again.
I may seem a bit hard hearted. Actually I am not but I will admit to being very cynical.
If I had been more cynical or more critical in my examination of life in all aspects, particularly here in the issues of spirituality I would not have been sucked in as I was, trading my power and my one on one with Divine for a High Priest named VP Wierwille and his lesser but still higher than me priests known as Leadership, trunk, limb, area and branch.
When I left TWI I read profusely about people and their experiences in their cults. One of the major major major issues I struggled with is what I thought I saw and experienced, ie God talking to me, healings for myself (nothing major mind you and the one time I had some thing major, I walked around with an unhealed broken bone).
I read a book, wish I remembered the name of it and no it was not Steve Hassan, but another guy who was in the Moonies. The odd thing, the thing that struck me deeply was that they saw 'demons and devils' trying to infiltrate their meetings and ranks and they believed that they also had the power to fight them off.
Well *I* knew Moonies were counterfeit but HOW could they think they saw such things and performed such acts as casting out devils since *they* were bogus.
I had to ask myself then what was truly real and what did I truly experience and what was just a belief system of what I was taught. I mean if you believe and are taught that the boogy man is under your bed, you will think after a while that you have seen his shadow and heard him moving under there. VP even uses this same analogy in the PFAL with being slain in the spirit. If you think you're going to go down when Pastor so and so does this with his hand or says that, you go down. You are taught what you should experience, you are taught what should happen, you are taught what you should feel and by and large, you do all that because that is what you are taught is going to happen.
So I had to ask myself about all the manifestations, about my experience. Was it real or was it a memorex response in having it happen only because I was taught it was to happen. I had to learn to retrust myself and critically examine all that I thought was godly, or supernatural or revelations. I wondered if I could ever trust myself again and be able to trust any experience I had in the future.
It was a very tough time but well worth it. I learned you can't dictate how the Divine will work in you. It can't be dictated that they will do this every single time the same way for the same person. You can't dictate how the Divine will not work. You can not regulate, predict or guesstimate or otherwise wrap the Divine up and limit the Divine to how they will interceed and work within each person's life. That is religion, man made and a small box of confinement.
I don't think, no I know that the Divine did not design us to be automated robots doing the same thing the world over.
Now it goes without saying, but those who would say, "What if the Divine tells you to jump off a bridge." I say, "Give me a break, huh?"
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Bolshevik
I never really had a problem paying for a class. (In any field, take a class and someone pays). What I have a problem with thought is the fact there is a class. Life is taught by example and one on one. It still bugs me that Advanced Class grads can't teach foundational material. It should be just that, foundational. You should just be able to go to fellowship and get that info. I can see some logic in having a class, so that everyone's been taught the same thing. But why push it so? Why does twi invest so heavily in classes? It's a waist of effort.
Yes, now that you mention it I do have loved ones still with twi who believe they've been healed but are obviously not. (are they just not believing right?
)
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Keith
I left in the mid 70's so I really can't speak to how it is now or was at the "end." I do remember VPW saying three things that obviously got lost. They were good things, regardless of what you think of him. These I'm sure a praphrased a bit."
1. "I would rather see the ministry fail because of too much grace and not because of law. Law just binds and hurts people. It destoys people lives."
2. "Someone should be able to go to fellowship on a regular basis and learn everything from the foundation through the advance class and more."
3. "Don't believe anything anyone says about the Word of God without checking it out for yourself....not even me."
I think these address issues mentioned in the above posts about classes and other area.
Early in this thread, someone talked about early classes where someone would play guitar and everyone whould take turns singing in tongues and interpreting , or prophesying. While we didn't do that excactly we did something like it. I remember that by the end the interpratations and prophesies were really dynomite the long we went on.
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FullCircle
I don't entirely agree with that, I think taking a class to learn more about the Bible and hearing the Gospel of Jesus Christ is totally different from taking a class in learning Power Point on your Windows computer or a class in college. I have sat through classes in certain churches and all I had to pay for was the book. I could either buy it on my own or through the church. **I only add this and my next paragraph BECAUSE it was a defense of TWI from way back when. Even VP in the old intermediate class mocks those who questioned his right to charge for the classes**
It is the motivation behind the class that counts, at least for me. To charge for a class so someone can 'received power from on high' or 'tap into the power of God' to me, even as I type it now sounds more like a marketing pyramid scheme of get rich quick or in this case, get powerful quick. In my ears when I was 18, it sounded great. In my now Crone days, it sounds as plastic and cheap as it is. I don't wonder about it being right to sell God for a price. I believe it was wrong.
And I agree, there shouldn't be a class at all. Information concerning the nature of God and Jesus Christ should be free flowing from those involved with the sect to all new comers. Why does the organization push for classes? Google terms like overload, or sensory overload. It is something like going to a hyped up sales pitch where some guy from a podium with a microphone gives a speel about his business changing your life for ever and all you have to do is invest so much money...you sit there through the hype, with hyped up people and it can be quite easy to fall for it. The good news is you go home, and you get time alone to think and mull it over. Now picture the PFAL class the way it was run. It was usually done four nights a week, three hours or less a night, one stinking break, rapt attention to the man with the skinny tie on the video screen. No talking, just sitting there listening to him drone on. All this new information being launched at you in rapid fire. Ask a question, you are told to wait. Ask at the end of the class you are told to wait till the whole class is over. Being in a type of situation where you don't talk, you just sit and listen and your brain is filled with info you never heard before, it overloads your senses. Your critical facilities can shut down and you quit thinking and just start accepting. PERFECT for TWI. It induces you to a state where information is just assimilated. Then hyped up grads greet you and give you a bunch of one liners cheering on the class. They won't answer your questions either. Go to fellowship and read the PFAL books on your off time. When do you really get time to evaluate your involvement and what you heard. It is priming ground to bring in as many as they can. It's effective, it works and it keeps the power where they want it, not in the fellowships but with them.
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waysider
"While I am on the subject, let me make myself more unpopular."
---------Full Circle-------------------
Why?, because you are not afraid to open up and speak what's on your mind?
I, for one, think you brought up quite a few valid points.
I do agree with you on being told what to expect and then using that to justify an experience.
The experience I posted (#34) happened before I even knew what "revelation" was. That's why it concerned me so much and I sought the advise of the twig leader. I had been "in The Word" for only a matter of days, perhaps a week at that point. Another experience I had happened years before my involvement with TWI and involved something my Dad said to me that had to have come from somewhere other than his own thinking simply because it was so immediate and had a profoundly lasting effect. Outside of these and a few that were similar, I never really saw "The Manifestations" happening at all, especially DOS which always seemed to me to be more like the discerners' "Freudian Slip Showing".
Charging for classes: Heck! The Fu!!er Brush Man charges for brushes doesn't he?
PFAL and the rest of the classes were merely "the brushes" that TWI hawked in order to build a financial empire at the expense of their unwitting customer base.Unlike TWI,though, the Fu!!er brush man didn't try to convince you he was tapped into some holy wisdom that could change your life. He just offered a better way to clean your toilet.
Hmmm. There's an analogy hiding in there but I can't quite put it into words.
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blarney
Bolshevik,
TWI is not the only group that believes in "manifestations on demand." I belong to other forums, and lots of people are detoxing over that type of doctrine.
Yes, I do have some thoughts about the manifestations. Do I believe they are from God?? Yes and no. (probably more 'no' than '"yes.")
I'll be back later with more thoughts, Bolshevik. This might involve a little review of my personal journey and also my biblical views to date.
Blarney
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Sunesis
Full Circle, keep posting, I'm enjoying them. Its always great to hear other opinions and perspectives. And I do understand what you're saying about Simony.
There are quite a few older threads on here about VP and his marketing scheme. From his past, I believe, when he discovered B.G. Leonard's classes, VP realized he hit the goldmine. He had looked about for years for something to sell, market, give him an edge and he found it in B.G. Leonard's classes. Unfortunately, poor old BG never thought to copyright the Bible he was teaching, so VP was able to. Eureke, goldmine for VPW. Now, just get some kids turned on and let them do the work selling it for me.
TWI was about making money for ole Vic - nothing more, nothing less. The class was his product. I believe he was a wolf in sheep's clothing.
After all, what could be more enticing to people then to have "spiritual power." Than to have God, and his power, at your command!!! God will give you what you want. Life more abundantly - in the material realm!
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FullCircle
Thank you Sunesis for your considerate words and your perspective as well.
I do agree with you totally. I haven't checked out the extent of how much VP stole from Leonard but one of the first things I asked God to show me when I left TWI was the validity of the claim that VP makes in the class that God told VP that he (God) would teach VP the word like it hadn't been known since the first century. I then went to the local bible bookstore within days or a week of that prayer, a continuous prayer and I found Clarence Larkin's work. He was born and preaching long before VP was born and there I found essays on Fellowship and Sonship, Sonship rights, the administrations and basically the PFAL class in a nut shell.
That told me that VP lied, God did not tell him that, IT had been known, just not to me. I won't stand for liars when it comes to spiritual matters, period. To me there is no excuse.
But commenting on what you just posted as well, it was if TWI turned God into a magic genie who was compelled to grant our requests as long as we rubbed the lamp of believing. It made God a servant with no will of his own. According to TWI, he couldn't break his own law....law of believing.
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Bumpy
You're all making a lot of sense to me. He stole the youth of so many people for so many years, and here we are trying to reconcile the past with the present. Some paid the ultimate price. Some may never recover the dreams they lost. But the past is gone and I think we can only pray for each other, that our past experiences can somehow benefit our brothers and sisters in Christ and the roads we all take. I may not express it all the way it should be said, but we have to keep on trying to do our best, because we all have so much to give each other! I hope that makes some sense from the land of Islam and the microphone! Bump
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FullCircle
Hey Bumpty Dumpty :)
((hehehehehe, just gave you a nick name!))
I tried to respond to your pm but it wouldn't let me.
Anywho, that is how I see this forum and this thread. Sharing what we learned, even if it's negative, we need to be aware of the negative so as not to get fooled again ((for those of us who believe we were fooled)) There's all different degrees here and we all hear what we need when we need it. The past isn't gone, it still lives inside of me and makes me what I am today. The good past and the bad past all mixed together makes a Full Circle ;) and it is hard and unrealistic for me ((I am only speaking for myself but I believe it to be true in general)) to take and ignore the bad past and act like it never happened and only take the good. It makes for lopsided opinions and people. Balance is the key and something we aim for and will miss and aim again and get it and then miss and then hit the balance again. But you're right about being here and listening and helping to others speak and share is the best thing we can do for each other.
So where the heck is the land of Islam? Why did I picture you some place that resembled the Alps?
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blarney
TWI's method of handling this particular section of scripture has bothered me for a long time, and really never could put my finger on it until lately...
What's intriguing to me is that Paul wrote to the Corinthians as spiritual babies, and in that context their handling of these spiritual enablements was a big concern for Paul. And it seems to me, if they were that important, Paul would have made a big deal out of them in his other letters. But he didn't.
And a further matter, for me, is that "more excellent way" that he details in chapter 13, a chapter that most people give short shrift to, IMO.
Also, I was involved with a group that sat and listened to a bootlegged copy of the class, checking with the interlinears and concordances as we listened. VPW pretty much butchered a good bit of it, particularly this section.
I also thought I would add my thoughts about the human propensity to codify spiritual stuff. I Cor. is a letter of correction, and yet many groups use Paul's correction as doctrine.
But, God being God, operates inside and outside our human boxes, which BTW cannot contain him.
Thank you for the welcome, Ca_dreaming! I've not figured out how to navigate around this particular forum to reply personally, yet!
Blarney
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Wanderer
I took the advanced class...against my better judgement, as I was quickly distancing myself from TWI at that time. I remember one leader thinking he, "Caught me" faking. In front of a class of maybe 20 folks, he had me SIT w/interpretation, again and again and again, maybe five times in a row before God told him it was me genuine! I WAS MAKING IT UP, due to peer pressure. I love to talk,
I could have gone on and on if he wanted, but that wouldn't make it any more or any less genuine.
I agree the post above comparing it to hypnosis, or meditation. Although I've attended churches that encourage meditation (Unity, and "Science of Mind"), people have confided to me that they fake meditation too!
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Oakspear
I think people did become more "fluent" in tongues, because they thought that they should. Still, if God is supplying the words, wouldn't it be God practicing to become more fluent? Wierwille always said it was "perfect", so when you first start, it must be less than perfect?
Ever notice that the interpretations didn't get any more intricate when the tongues did?
And I've been practicing breathing for coming up on 49 years, but I think I pretty much had it down the first day and haven't got any better at it! Dueling analogies
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Bolshevik
Did anyone see the Nightline (ABC newshow) recently where there was a doctor doing research on speaking in tongues?
some people like this certain minister did it on demand, some needed some inspiration such as music. (interesting)
The minister was asked to pray with understanding and then his brain was scanned (MRI or something). Then he was asked to pray in tongues while being scanned.
The results showed that more parts of the brain were needed to pray with understanding that with tongues.
Comments anyone?
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waysider
It might be interesting to see this same experiment done wih someone singing the words to a song and then doing the same song in "scat".(Scat is a style of singing that employs the use of random syllables rather than words. Ella Fitzgerald was probably the most well known, though two others that come to mind are Scatman Crothers and Mel Torme.)
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ChasUFarley
I think SIT was genuine, and the interpretations, etc., but what I don't think was genuine was the words the people used in the interpretation...
Why, for gawdsakes, did people suddenly start talking in the third person in their interpretations - OR WORSE YET - Elizabethian English - good grief!
I remember trying not to giggle my sweet fanny off when I was living down in Alabama and Bubba would get called on to SIT w/ interpretation...
"Yoshanta, ta lata, pas sada tomatas...."
"My beeeloved children, I haf called theeeee from bee-four the found-day-shuns of the worldah..."
The other thing that would get my dander was when ministry buzz words started creeping into the manifestations more and more...
"I have called you to walk on the PRESENT TRUTH of my Word and to cross the COVERED BRIDGE into the PROMISED LAND..."
(And don't get me started on the covered bridge into the promised land crapola - what was craiggers smoking when he came up with THAT?!)
Personally, I miss manifestations - no, they weren't earth shattering, but they're far more edifying than the evening news...
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dmiller
Hmmmm. LOT'S of covered bridges there in southern Indiana (right next to Ohio).
You wouldn't believe the things done -- under *cover*!
Meebe that was his version of the *lock-box*. In and out.
But we'll never know for sure --- will we?? ;)
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Bolshevik
That is interesting. Never thought of that. I wonder what other things people do like that. There may be things that don't involved words or language, maybe like a musical instrument or dancing.
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blarney
Chas...
As a contemplative, I view these manifestations -- as well as all visions and communication with the divine -- as merely "bad translations" (qtd. Thomas Keating) of what cannot be adequately conveyed by the human tongue. Everything gets flitered through the (clouded) prisms of our experiences and and attitudes.
So, in that respect, I do think there was something there. But there's always something there of God. He is, and when we're aware of Him simply through being, we allow truth to be infused in us. But this truth eludes communication and is simply "knowing."
Thus, I can see how these things can be hit or miss. When we are simply still and know..., we can be more attuned to Love, and that's something that cannot be communicated, necessarily.
In our frenetic pace of day to day activity, we miss this.
My $.02,
Blarney
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Through the Looking Glass
That's odd... I just quit attending fellowship about a month ago and there was no asking for volunteers. In fact, I haven't heard them say, "Would someone please bring forth a word of prophecy?" in years. In my area much more emphasis is put on following the leading and teaching formats. For leading, you are given a specific format in which you just fill in the blanks with your choice of song, person to pray, manifest, etc.
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Bolshevik
Volunteering is a sign of maturity. You should always be ready to manifest.
I've seen those formats also.
This may depend on the fellowship. Or, I first saw this at HQ, maybe this hasn't spread (back) to your area yet.
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