Ms. Shroyer on Depression

[Linda Z]

Aw heck, WB, no need to apologize at all. I took no offense.

[waterbuffalo]

No problem. Apparently I totally misread her post. :huh:

[Shellon]

absolutely no reason to apologize, the back and forth conversation is just life.

[mdsnpp]

"The joy of the Lord is my strength" .....despite twi, I very much believe in God and i am sure that my work with inmates as a Nurse Practitioner is ordained of Him. It is the good works that we are to walk in that ephesians talks about. His joy is most assuredly my strength and has been ever since I first heard about his Word all those years ago from a fringe cult-like group:). Negative emotions drain power, not that we will never have them but I don't beleive we are to be dominated by them. I still believe in overcoming evil with good. I had so many many twists and turns in getting my credentials, one would almost think a spiritual force was trying to stop me:) I hung on and I PRESSED to get my victory and I am so glad I did. I kept saying "be not weary in well doing for in due season YE SHALL REAP IF YE FAINT NOT". I now have a fulfillment that was only a dream 30 years ago when I first went to college. This career did not even exist! I have the regular satisfaction of seeing dramatic recoveries, most commonly from schizophrenia. Yes, His joy is my strength. I also was fortunate in that I was not particularly abused by twi, having left around 1981...

[waterbuffalo]

I am a Nurse Practitioner in Psychiatry (NPP per my user name) and I can certify that depression is extraordinarily complex, and very hard to treat. I work in a state hospital for inmates, many of whom are doing life without parole, and yet I seldom see true depression in this population. I mean a handful of cases in 3 years. Medicine helps some folks, for many others it does nothing. We don't know why. We don't even really know what depression is. The side effects of meds can be life-destroying-like anorgasmia, for one. I have come to believe that there are as many different kinds of depression as there are depressed people. A few need more faith, many need to stop being condemned about their faith. Some need to excercise. Some need to stop excercising so much. Some need a better diet, some need to eat a little candy once in awhile. Some need a partner, some need a divorce. Some need an advanced degree to fulfill their call in this life. Some need to do their laundry and clean their house, literally and figuratively. Some need to forgive somebody, some need to get mad at somebody. As someone has said ,if the human mind were so simple we could understand it, we would be too simple to understand it. My take on a complex phenomena. When a new patient walks in the door, I always get a sinking feeling when depression is the main issue. I know that it is very unlikely that I'll see a dramatic improvement, especially if its a long-standing problem. I do thank twi for teaching me that the joy of the Lord is my strength. I had never heard it at the presbyterian church I grew up in...its gotten me through some very tough times.

MD,

I found your entire post fascinating and saved it in a Word document. But, probably the most fascinating statement, imo, was rarely seeing depression in inmates without parole.

Can you explain why this is or offer some theories of your own? I would think if anyone had reason to be depressed--do most of them have no remorse? Is it because they act out their anger? I'm just guessing, here. Wow. I'm floored.

[mdsnpp]

Why are inmates doing life without parole relatively rarely depressed? I have a few theories..many are narcissistic and just plain think awful highly of themselves. Many believe that they will actually get out, that their appeal will be sucessful. A few carve out a life in prison for themselves by helping others...most inmates have antisocial personality disorder and for those folks, life is cheap, even their own. They had no meaning in their lives on the street and none in jail. What's the difference?at least with jail you get 3 hots and a cot. They had no expectations of sucess and were only ever interested in material things that they had to steal or do other illegal things to get. Murderers are almost never remorseful and all the rapists in jail are innocent, thats another factor. Its amazing what you can make yourself believe if you want to badly enough!

[waterbuffalo]

Thank, MD. That's something to chew on...wow.

What percentage are mentally ill, in you opinion?

[FullCircle]

Just out of curiousity, is there a study published that states that inmates, especially those without hope of parole are rarely afflicted with depression? I would be interested in ready a scientific study on that and if it would differ from state to state, from maxium secure prisons/federal prisons and state prisons. I am sure there are a lot of opinions out there stemming from subjective observations. Not all people show depression the same way and may present symptoms differently, especially while imprisoned.

I am just curious. Maybe I will just google it as well.

[year2027]

God first

Beloved Friends

God loves you my dear friend

I hope some are not judging Tonia to fast because we have all been missunderstood before

As we have all been taught wrong but I am not saying she was taught wrong but What I am saying leave room for any possibleable reason

now below is the reply John send me and I am happy it took so long because I like thing that are done out of love and believe that was his goal even if we do not see eye to eye on all things

thank you

with love and a holy kiss blowing your way Roy

John Email to me

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Roy,

Tonia did not say EVERYONE that is depressed is possessed, but that for some

possession can be the problem. AND if that is the case, they don't needed shunned they need helped if at all possible. Tonia understands full well the problem of depression and bipolar. Here father has dealt with it for at least 30 years or more.

Tonia is also a nurse and understands the medication end of dealing with this kind of problem. BUT Tonia ALSO understands the spiritual side that can be at the root of this problem. Before you get judgmental of Tonia concerned what somebody wrote about her on Grease Spot, of which we are not followers of this website nor do we make decisions and judgment about what we teach and HOW we minister to people that need help.

So Roy, I understand your situation and from where you make judgment, but in this case I do not agree with you. We are NOT the Way Ministry who for years labeled people and dumped them. We endeavor to help all we can. We also are not afraid to speak the truth of GOD'S Word concerning the subject you brought up.

Lovingly in Christ,

John

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my reply back to John

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God first

Beloved John

God loves you my dear friend

I was not judgmenting her but I was pointing that I believe this needs to be addressed because of the hearts of people with these problems

But I know how easy it is to be miss quoted or some see things in words that are not there

By using the ending "blowing a holy kiss " the things I hear your can only image because most people do not understand what a holy kiss and the differ from a big wet one from a kiss of love blowing in the wind

Now I get this on some boards and I am trying to use it as a example for you to understand my heart.

Whether you like Grease Spot Cafe it does not matter there are many of your people there and its a hot sunject .

Being not afraid to speak the truth is one thing but being willing to love the unloveable is another thing

or other wise saying your sorry even if you feel you did no wrong

Like I am sorry for the missunderstanding of my words my heart was not for you to think I was judging her but for you to clear things up

I am not judgmentual of Tonia I can not even picture her its been so long

My situation is I love God and there nothing to understand its just a walk

I must care that Tonia may of been miss understood but I must all so care that some may run from your doors because of what they read

If I had not known your heart personally and people like Carol Barney's heart personally I might of judged first but I wanted to leave that open

Now if I phase it wrong I am sorry or if you miss understood me I am sorry

I posted what I wrote on Grease Spot Cafe because I believe there were some truths in it about devil spirits and depression and bipolar that could help

I believe most groups do not understand devil spirits and that why I wrote "

The Leap down of Adam " and I will send it next.

depression is something I believe we all deal with from time to time because of many things

Jesus Christ talk to the sickness whether it was cancer or depression - depression because of a lost one or what ever reason

I am not sure what To write so I will end here

I know your group is trying to do right as is Allan Woodhouse group

but that does not mean we will all ways agree on everything

thank you

with love and a holy kiss blowing your way Roy

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Now I hope we can leave about Tonia and keep learning together how to deal with depression

thank you

with love and a holy kiss blowing your way Roy

[mdsnpp]

Regarding the inmate population-my patients area very select group in that at any given time they "supposedly" represent the most unstable or seriously mentaly ill individuals among the 8-9,000 inmates receiving mental health services in this state. Our facility is an inpatient hospital, with about 200 beds, actually not a "jail" per se. Most of what we see here are individuals with schizophrenia, bipolar disorder and severe behavioral problems often related to antisocial personality disorder(what is called making a poor adjustment to incarceration-often throwing feces at corrections staff). We see some depression here, but not as much as one would think, and often the depression predates incarceration and is extremely chronic or "characterologic", beginning in early teen years. It is often associated with substance abuse, which only deepens depression, as well as borderline intellectual functioning, IQ in the 70-85 range. Not mental retardation but not rhodes scholarship material, either. It is exacerbated by social conditions and policies that encourage men to abandon the families they can't support- at least then the families will be eligible for welfare and state medicaid. The extremely high cost of living in NY City adds to it-what can a person with a 9th grade education and an IQ to match do to legally earn a living wage in NY? I submit to you-nothing. What percentage are mentally ill? About 10% of inmates in this state receive services, in some cases that means counseling only without meds. About 60% of the individuals sent to this hospital are mentally ill, by which I mean schizophrenic or psychotic, probably 20% are chiefly antisocial personality disordered with behavioral issues, another 5% are mentally retarded, perhaps 5% are depressed, and about 10% are flat out malingerers, feigning mental illness for soemsecondary gain. Considering our population, we do a good job in that our suicide rate is no higher than the rate for similar populations(men 20-60) in the community. Most of our suicide attempts do not reflect genuine depression but are manipulative attempts to be sent to a different prison, etc. Fortunately, few of these attempts are sucessful. Sorry about the long answer-this is my life's call!!!

[waterbuffalo]

Thanks MD for the reply. I truly admire you for accepting your life's calling in this area. There aren't many of us who could do it.

:)

[Ca_dreaming]

Thanks Roy for your big wonderful heart, and yes I have caught the kiss, Thank You!

That in itself is healing. The Lord works in mysterious ways.

[year2027]

God first

Beloved Ca_dreaming

God loves you my dear friend

yes "Lord works in mysterious ways"

your welcome I am glad you "caught the kiss"

thank you

with love and a holy kiss blowing your way Roy

[waterbuffalo]

With all due respect, I do feel it's only right to say on this thread that Mrs. Shroyer is probably a very nice person who does truly desire to help people--just as all of us here are or were at one time. LOL! She was simply doing the ex-twi-offshoot-standard teaching on this subject in parts and probably added some of her own insight in other parts. This does not in anyway make her a bad person or a user or any of that. I have no doubt the CFF people want to help ex-twi people get over twi. My opinion is it's not always bad to gradually wean yourself off harmful substances, even teachings that you really believed in at one time.

However, most of you knew there would be a "however," I don't believe this particular teaching is helpful to most people who suffer from depression because it doesn't give the whole or relevant picture. We've pretty much proven, at least on this board, that no one here, anyway, can list even one person who had an evil spirit cast out and is now better from depression. The closest we came was someone said he knew parents whose child got better at first but then had to keep "casting 'em out" which clearly says there was no real healing there.

So, even though I think these offshoot groups could have good intentions, some of them (others just wanted to continue their standard of living and keep doing the same thing that served them well, imo) by continuing the "this disease could be a d.s. teaching", ( I mean, is there really anyone who was ever in twi who doesn't know that every bad thing in the world or your life might be a d.s. per twi, for heaven's sake), I really think people would be better served by teaching, instead, on not being ashamed to go to a qualified MD to get well. That's what's needed here in this and any other twi community, imo.

So, now that I've gotten that off my chest, back to our regularly scheduled program...

[oenophile]

We see some depression here, but not as much as one would think, and often the depression predates incarceration and is extremely chronic or "characterologic", beginning in early teen years. It is often associated with substance abuse, which only deepens depression, as well as borderline intellectual functioning, IQ in the 70-85 range. Not mental retardation but not rhodes scholarship material, either.

Would you please expound on borderline IQ being a marker for depression? How do you account for people who struggle with depression like my mother who was a visiting scholar at a major university in Shakespearean Studies and my son who finished high school in three years with a 4.0 taking mostly A.P. classes and now attends an Ivy League university and is pulling an cumlative G.P.A. of 4.0 there?

Edited March 31, 2007 by oenophile

[excathedra]

thank you for replying to me, mdsnpp

[mdsnpp]

Borderline intellectual functioning is not a marker for depression, i'm sorry if i gave that impression. It is a marker for poor overall functioning, particularly if psychosocial adversity is severe. On the contrary, i beleive that individuals of above average IQ are at an increased risk for depression for a variety of reasons, although i don't know of many clinical studies to support this. many have high expectations and those expectations may or may not be fulfilled due to the vagaries of this mundane existance. However, working is a correctional setting, i cannot say i commonly treat the above average intelligence person. however, i do know, for example, that female physicians have double the rate of suicide compared to other female college graduates. how does one account for that? i can only suspect that reality did not meet expectations.

[oenophile]

Mdsnnp,

It is often associated with substance abuse, which only deepens depression, as well as borderline intellectual functioning, IQ in the 70-85 range.

IQ has nothing to do with "functioning", it is a measure of intellectual potential. A professional working in the psychiatric field should be fully aware of this.

On the contrary, i beleive that individuals of above average IQ are at an increased risk for depression for a variety of reasons, although i don't know of many clinical studies to support this. many have high expectations and those expectations may or may not be fulfilled due to the vagaries of this mundane existance

.

While examples of melancholy genius abound, I am not sure that higher IQ people are at greater risk for depression than the general population. I am curious about what you are referring to as a mundane existence. Is it the human condition in general that you deem to be mundane or are you referring to depression?

Robin

Edited April 3, 2007 by oenophile

[now I see]

I do believe I read somehwere that Martin Luther, who posted the 95 Thesus on the door of the Catholic Church, suffered from depression and severe bouts of illness at times.  

Definitely a man with whom God worked within.

[mdsnpp]

unfortunately ,low IQ has a great deal to do with low functioning, however high IQ is no guarantee of high functioning. Motivation and preseverance are equally or more important. what are the vagaries of this mundane existance? There are so many. one example comes to mind quickly- a group of folks who start out with wonderful intentions, teaching the Word "as it hasn't been taught since the first century" and wind up as a extremely spiritually abusive organization. Not only that, as a fellow oenophile, I've often been sorely disappointed by a 25 dollar bottle of wine. These and others of life's major and minor problems commonly magnified by depression. I hadn't heard about Martin Luther but Abraham Lincoln's depressive illness is well documented-there's hope for the suffering!

[likeaneagle]

deleted post

[Ca_dreaming]

To much technical and not any heart or love in this thread..

[waterbuffalo]

"You must be the change you wish to see in the world."

- Mahatma Gandhi

[Bramble]

:huh: I must have missed something here.

But I do hope that ex TWI who suspect or wonder if they might be depressed seek help outside of the Way doctrine help, like from a good physician. Renewing the mind doesn't help much if your really big symptoms involve sleep problems or short term memory loss.

Medication doesn't take away your ability to feel, make you numb, like LCM taught. It certainly can help many people.

[mdsnpp]

absolutely, don't give up hope! treatments are improving all the time. More and more mainstream- type churches are viewing depression as an illness like high blood pressure or diabetes. If you don't respond to the first medicine you try, keep going back! There is alot of new stuff out there for" treatment resistant depression". Do not allow shame or ignorance to stop you.