You are nothing more than a creepy pedophile, If you think that child is doing well you are out of your friggin mind. You will never know how much of her life was lost as a result of your urges. Does she think with disgust what you did? No matter how much therapy she has gotten she will always have to remember you for the sick person you were. Prison in this life time is too good for you, They should take you and your likes and use you for ground cover in Baghdad.
You will never get any kind of sympathy from me, as a matter of fact I really hope I never get the make me sick opportunity to meet you.
Hey, Moderator, is there some way I can make it so this creep can't ever PM me or that I don't ever have to read any of his posts again?
Oh. by the way. I edited this post again so everyone can see only the kinder, gentler side of me.
Amen Out There. I am with you, someone that is holding such a reduced opinion of his actions is certainly not healthy. And as my experience has been these men always have the temptation. I think ignoring the guy is a good plan.
Just a reminder that it is against GS policy to post information about the real identity of any poster.
Many people choose to remain anonymous for varying reasons and GS will always respect that, irregardless of the person or what they post.
This is in no way an endorsement of Anothen, what he did, or what he has posted.
There is a reason why we keep the mug shot of another pedophile on the front page of GS. This topic has been discussed at length by the moderators on what to do about it without any consensus -- suffice to say that if Anothen farts in the wrong direction he's out of here. And anyone who knows me personally knows I hold no sympathy for any pedophile.
On the other hand, I think Anothen has done GS a service. He has provided a look into the disgusting mind of a pedophile. TWI attracted a lot of messed up people, including pedophiles. And it is a known fact that The Way International covered up their crimes, moved them around, and provided them access to new victims. All indications are that The Way International still supports Mark Naberschnig while he is serving his prison time. Reading this thread, I don't know how anyone could not feel anything but disgust and anger at TWI's leadership.
You can configure the forum to ignore any posts and refuse any PMs from anyone. This is done by clicking on the "My Controls" link on the menu, then the "PM Block List" and "Manage Ignored Users".
I was able to read some of the info about you as well as others here and one thing occured to me. Besides being in therapy and learning to understand your own twisted logic that allowed you to do what you did and which also would keep you doing what you did, unless you could undo that way of thinking..ie children are sexually aggressive, I see that you think that just because you only molested one child and not another that it is unfair for you to be labeled as a sexual predator for life. I have also gleaned from the information that you have presented that you think that having a National Sexual Offender list on people is a bad thing and that you actually claim it will make more children vunerable to being molested.
I don't know how you come up with your rationales but I do believe I know what is prompting them. I believe you are part of a movement, one that has been successful before, that has stopped local police from being able to notify communities when a known child abuse offender has moved into their town.
I pray that any group, ACLU and those who would fight for taking away the ability to notify communities of people like you moving into town falls flat on their face.
The one thing worse than having a known child abuse offender move into your town is NOT knowing about the child abuse offender moving into your town.
There was a CSI episode where someone studied the sex offenders in their area so they could use one as target for a crime they intended to do themselves. And in that case the registered sex offender was falsely accused and taken in for questioning. But even in his innocence in that crime he displayed a living illness inside his head and that probably is more true than not in society. For someone to think it is better to have sexual relations with a child over an adult is so far removed from normal thinking that I can't begin to go there. Even still I would hope these men and women could have a means to get as healthy as possible for their own sanity yet never be allowed in a situation where their unhealthy temptations could be put into action.
I lost a friend on many years in Florida due to her little girl revealing the indications of abuse which I knew all too intimately. It was a rough call for me to make at that time but when I changed her little boy's diaper one time when I was watching him I noticed something not right (no need to describe) as well as I noticed him looking in my eyes with fear as I changed him. That was what pulled me out of my stupor and I told her privately that day when she returned to pick him up that I suspected both her children were being abused by her husband (their dad). She became angry and we never spoke again. What became of that family I later learned was a divorce and I had always hoped it was my actions that prompted her to look into matters and hopefully protect those children. I would do it over a million times and lose a friend in a heartbeat for it.
Of course his heart isn't "pure." Anothen may NEVER be able to grasp what he's done other than intellectually.
I think an opportunity was lost. There are "boundaries," and then there are blinders. We HAVE boundaries, and there is nothing wrong with reinforcing them.
Do it rationally, not rashly. It is because of the blinders that so many victims fail to recognize the boundaries.
I know and it took a few more steps inside myself to get there and I know you are addressing the board but you are also addressing me and have aided in where I am today. Which you know quite well my friend.
Of course his heart isn't "pure." Anothen may NEVER be able to grasp what he's done other than intellectually.
I think an opportunity was lost. There are "boundaries," and then there are blinders. We HAVE boundaries, and there is nothing wrong with reinforcing them.
Do it rationally, not rashly. It is because of the blinders that so many victims fail to recognize the boundaries.
Satoori,
I'm not clear on what you meant by "an opportunity lost". I'm always open to learn and I am usually the one that errs on the side of forgiveness. I never said not to forgive this man. My concern in this thread has been to keep the boundaries firm and to take the blinders off. You may not have been addressing me here - but I feel the need to respond just the same.
I'm not clear on what you meant by "an opportunity lost". I'm always open to learn and I am usually the one that errs on the side of forgiveness. I never said not to forgive this man. My concern in this thread has been to keep the boundaries firm and to take the blinders off. You may not have been addressing me here - but I feel the need to respond just the same.
You can either respond to me here or in a PM.
Enter anothen. He makes his confession. He wants to "educate" us. So what? He isn't in control here. He is just another poster, and you can engage in dialog, you can confront his inconsistences on an intellectual level, and thereby better understand him, or you can just flame him in effigy. And what's to be gained by that, by drowning him out, and preventing others from questioning him? Peace of mind? Satisfaction? I don't think so.
Okay, how often do we hear from someone like anothen? How often do we hear from someone like him, who is willing to concede he was wrong? Whether or not he considers himself an "instructor," what he reveals about himself could be very instructive.
Now, I get that he doesn't seem to "feel" wrong, and that his grief has more to do with his own woes than the "mild embarrassment" he caused a 9-year old girl. I get that he may try it again some day. I get that something evil may yet dwell within him, and it may always be there.
But I also see there is more to him than that evil, and there might be the opportunity for questioning him. Sure, I could read books and articles, and I have.
Now I have good reason to dislike a man who likes little girls in that way, and "dislike" is quite an understatement. But I also have good reason to understand what I can because it is my understanding, not my instinct for visceral loathing, that may save my little girl some day. Loathing comes after the fact, unfortunately.
I have no right to demand that Greasespot tolerate this kind of dialog, and as many have pointed out, anothen's presence here is problematic at the very least. This is not an academic forum or some professional review. Here we're just people.
Nevertheless, like oenophile, I saw an opportunity, and in a collective reflex resembling something like mass hysteria, that opportunity was lost. Oenophile saw the possibility for redemption (not for GS's forgiveness, or approval), and I saw the possibility for allowing him to work out his redemption by contributing to my understanding. I am being somewhat less generous here than oenophile. I have a reason to be pragmatic.
I don't think that the "villagers with pitchforks" reaction serves anyone on an internet forum (we're not talking about a neighborhood here), but it is perfectly understandable and in that light, I don't want to sound critical. It's unlikely I might have gained any insight from anothen that might protect my little girl some day, but it's possible. It isn't that there aren't other resources, they abound. But this opportunity was unique.
the guy is a predator, Do you think the next 9 year old "sexually aggressive" little girl is going to stand a chance up against him. Biblically they would make him always have a white rock outside the tent he stayed in so everyone would always know that he was a rapist. This is how they stayed 'marked' for life.
If the guy showed predatory behavior once and his words sound like he doesn't think that it was 100% sealed and locked up wrong he WILL do it again.
How sexually aggressive do you think a child of 9 can be?
He shouldn't be in our camp. He is a danger to society wherever he is, perhaps a few more YEARS of sexual predator therapy could help but I wouldn't put any of my money on it.
the guy is a predator, Do you think the next 9 year old "sexually aggressive" little girl is going to stand a chance up against him. Biblically they would make him always have a white rock outside the tent he stayed in so everyone would always know that he was a rapist. This is how they stayed 'marked' for life.
If the guy showed predatory behavior once and his words sound like he doesn't think that it was 100% sealed and locked up wrong he WILL do it again.
How sexually aggressive do you think a child of 9 can be?
He shouldn't be in our camp. He is a danger to society wherever he is, perhaps a few more YEARS of sexual predator therapy could help but I wouldn't put any of my money on it.
If they put a white rock outside his tent, does that mean they permitted him to live, and to live among them? Were they just aware? I'm all for awareness. I'm probably less tolerant than the white-rock folks, Out There.
"If the guy showed predatory behavior once and his words sound like he doesn't think that it was 100% sealed and locked up wrong he WILL do it again." - And how does banning him from Greasespot affect that likelihood?
"How sexually aggressive do you think a child of 9 can be?" - When I was younger than 9, maybe 7 or 8, my family rented an apartment by the ocean. In the same complex there was a girl about my age, maybe a year older, named Leslie. Over the course of the summer, she took each of the boys under the boardwalk to "play," where she challenged us to show, and be shown. We were shown, whether or not we wanted to be. We knew we were doing something "naughty," but we didn't know why. She was obviously a pedophile, OutThere, and I was her victim. Don't you think? (Looking back now I suspect Leslie herself had been molested.)
Children are not "aggressive" in the way adults are, but they become aware of their own bodies at a very young age, and they are completely uninhibited. Their innate curiosity extends beyond themselves to one another, and to anyone they may trust. This natural and normal behavior is part of a child's development. A normal adult will gently (not hysterically) but firmly and consistently establish and enforce proper boundaries. (A local daycare uses the bathing suit rule - if the bathing suit covers it, that's your private place and nobody should touch you there.) The child learns those boundaries like learning anything else. But a pedophile, as an example, may exploit a child's natural curiosity, and "allow" the child to explore further and further beyond those boundaries, telling himself he is a passive object of the child's "aggression."
--
The original harm is caused by an adult eroticizing the child's body, and therefore its sense of self, long before the natural maturation process which leads up to puberty can take place. Budding sexuality makes normal teenagers "crazy," so consider the impact it must have on young children's emotional state, when they should be working out their place in their families, and learning to relate, converse, share, play with their little friends. They are in no way ready to process sexual experience, and when awakened sexuality becomes the over-riding context for every other aspect of their development, their childhood is virtually stolen from them.
The secondary harm is societal. Shame is imposed upon them by the puritanical mores that inform and define some of our deepest contemporary "values." Those values are relatively new to the human race. We'd have died out as a race long ago had every generation waited until 18 because they only lived into their early twenties. Who was raising those children? Some more primitive cultures draw the line of adulthood at 12. Templelady discussed this with respect to certain Eskimo tribes, and the impact of imposing Western Protestant values upon them.
Nevertheless, we do shame children, when they are victimized by pedophiles. We even make them share some of the pedophile's guilt, as we do with other rape victims, come to think of it. Why is that? They have been defiled, and therefore devalued. Not to themselves, to us. It's just such an awful sin. What if they cooperated? What if they even enjoyed it a little bit? And of course they did (our internal dialogue subtly whispers, despite ourselves) so they are GUILTY too.
--
When it comes to sex, our culture is probably just as dysfunctional as fundamentalist Islamic societies, maybe not as overtly misogynistic, and somewhat less violent. But we probably put just as many head trips and hang ups on ourselves - and our children - as any bearded Islamic savages, who stone women for having sex out of wedlock, and for much less, and even for dishonoring their familes by getting raped.
So the pedophile steals the victim's childhood, and though the rest of us all proudly say "Kill, kill, kill the pedophile," society enthusiastically continues his work, perpetuating soul murder by shaming victims with a lifetime of whispers, looks and awkward silences.
--
So why does satori want to talk to the pedophile? Because I think that contemporary American society is only slightly less twisted than he is, and only by emerging from our own, collective darkness and shame do we begin to heal, and through healing, more effectively deal with an epidemic of pedophilia. That requires communication and understanding (not sympathy or justification). The absolute worst thing we can do is drive pedophilia back into the shadows, where it is most dangerous.
Being a dysfunctional society, we can't bring ourselves to do what's necessary. We can only react, attack what we both fear and misunderstand, and by isolating it, we ignorantly empower it. I understand that and I don't condemn anyone for it. It is what it is.
What I have learned and views I realize I hold so far (outside of my own weaknesses) is that this place is to help heal the adults that were abused. I just don't think children should be allowed to read this forum at all unless the adult is sitting there prepared to explain our reactions and understandings and the trolls that come and go. And that we welcome the abused but we don't have the same feelings about the abuser, and that is bigger than this man that the more I read the more I see has shown no true remorse, and it saddens me to have had to learn those boundaries were part of our forum.
When I posted that I was sorry that we couldn't allow someone of this type into our world here because I thought I could have learned from him in a more personal way than reading stats readily available yet a safe way because this is still the net and not the street where I live.
And I was sad to see there was no room for him here but I became aware by way of some sound advice given me here that this particular thing was not so much about him but about my boundaries and what was safe for me to do.
I'm still digesting the whole thing and looking at those suggestions of boundaries which I believe in time would allow me to engage in a dialog with someone that could have been my abuser had it been the right circumstances. I can't face my adult rapist not can I my childhood one as he is dead but something inside of me led me towards welcoming him from the start.
Then I saw more deeply that he was still quite ill and I was not safe not because of him but because of me.
So why does satori want to talk to the pedophile? Because I think that contemporary American society is only slightly less twisted than he is, and only by emerging from our own, collective darkness and shame do we begin to heal, and through healing, more effectively deal with an epidemic of pedophilia.
That sounds all nice and clinical Satori, but personally I already understand all too well how such a dark and twisted mind works, how it justifies, rationalizes and blames. None of that information, that view and understanding of the insanity inside such a mind, has helped me heal. Nor has it helped me protect my kids.
You want to protect your children? Educate them. Teach them boundaries, teach them how to maintain their boundaries. Talk to them ALOT. With that, supervise, supervise, supervise. Think long and hard about who you leave them with when you aren't there to supervise. Listen to what your instincts tell you about them - if necessary do a background check.
Better to offend someone by NOT leaving your child with them, than risk having your child injured. You think a background check is going to far? paranoid? My son had a friend whose mom seemed okay, but her boyfriend creeped me out. I did a background check, he was a registered sex offender. The mom knew!!!!! and let this man around her children. My child - never ever will he play at their house.
My children also know how to say no to adults. Teacher's, parents, any adult. They understand they listen to their parents. They understand they listen to other adults only within certain boundaries. They understand mom will back them up if they say no to another adult in the proper context (and that includes some circumstances outside the sexual arena as well.)
None of that is a guarantee - there are no guarantees. But it is a damned good starting place.
As for healing . . . again it is boundaries. When you are molested as a child, as you said, your boundaries are destroyed. Someone has to teach you boundaries, you have to learn boundaries. When you finally reach that place inside, where you know where your boundaries are, where you learn it is okay to protect your boundaries, when you learn HOW to protect your boundaries - then the healing can occur. Then you can come to understand what happened wasn't your fault, that you bear no shame, that what the other person did was their horrendous shame, not yours.
What do you think it does inside the adults here who were molested as a children, when they read a pedophile's words about "sexually aggressive children", when they see the pedophile once again blaming the child? Do you think such words can in any way help them heal? Or does it send them right back to that place where they lived as a child? To that place of self blame, guilt, shame?
Do you have any idea how many years, how much work it takes to overcome those thoughts and feelings of guilt and shame? Do you have any idea how hard you have to fight on a daily basis not to fall right back into that place of guilt and shame?
Are you so sure this guy doesn't understand, probably better than you, how to push someone right back into that place? Are you sure this guy wasn't trying to do just that - to revictimize the victims?
I suspect, this guy who knew how to work his way into a 9 year old girls life is smart enough not to show his hand so early in the game. Smart enough to know the words he chose "sexually agressive" only "fondled her", she was only "a little embarassed" - I suspect he knew those words would show his hand. I suspect, he didn't care that it would show his hand.
When Jesus entered into Capernaum, a certain centurion (whose slave was dear to him) saw him, and entreated him: ‘Lord, my slave lies at home, motionless and on the verge of death.’ And Jesus said ‘I will come and heal him.’
But the Centurion answered, ‘Lord, I am unworthy of you entering beneath my roof; only utter the command, and my boy will be healed.’ When Jesus heard this, he marvelled..” Truly I say to you - not in Israel have I encountered such trust!” And Jesus said to the centurion: ‘Go! As you have trusted, such for you will be done!’ And his [sex] slave was healed that very hour.’
John the Baptist was outraged! When he heard this report in prison, he dispatched two of his disciples to question him: “Are you the one expected to come - or shall we expect another?”
-Reconstruction, derived from Q, Marcion, Matt.8:5-13/Luke 7:2; Acts of Pilate ch.8).
I use to think it was wrong to keep repeating you were an alcoholic thinking it kept you in the soup rather than aided you but I have learned it is not keeping yourself there but remembering you had a reason to be one in the first place and that reason didn't go away never to return again. One has to remember where they came from in some instances so not to return there.
As rape isn't about sex but about violence and rage and humiliation, so it is the same with those who abuse children, no matter what age the child is. It is about power and control and an adult human being that is so twisted within himself or herself that they can only relate in their own sick way to someone much less powerful in every aspect, which would be someone much much younger than themselves.
Harm is done when an adult assaults a child or teenager, whether that child or teenager speaks out about it. She/he can carry it in her/his soul for years alone and still feel the wound because it was not right. It goes deeper than societal norms. Most nine year olds or six year olds or toddlers have not been taught the facts of life and do not have that stigma of being or knowledge of being seen as 'damaged goods' and yet they bear the marks of the behavior of the sexually perverse adult.
This is why ancient tribal customs or maybe not so ancient tribal customs do not apply as that was a totally different issue in people marrying younger than they do today. Although I believe that giving a young girl to a fat rich man who already has five wives isn't all that much different, but at least the girl had to contend with other wives and concubines before he got to her, if he was interested at all since it was usually a political move than an old man wanting a young girl.
Now if you get a child who is sexually advanced as Satori mentioned in his post, you will find a child who has already been sexually abused or has been exposed to adult sexual themes and has in turn started to act it out. There are certain brain impairments or disabilities that may cause a child to mature quicker and faster (like Fetal Alcohol Syndrome and other factors) but with proper instruction and definite adult supervision, no damage to others will be caused.
It is known in the area of dealing with and counseling those who suffered abuse that the reaction of the adults around them when it become public knowledge will either serve to help the child or make the damage even worse. If you have other adults who blame the child, who treat the child like crap because of what happened to them, or turn a blind eye and not see what is happening to the child, it makes it worse. It doesn't create the problem, it makes it worse. The problem is the abuse.
When I first read Anothen's post, I missed a whole lot. I saw him talking about a man's natural sexual desires and totally missed the nine year old girl part. A man and a girl does not equate, no matter how or where it happens in time or place. Many many abusers do blame the girl/boy saying that because they were so sexually aggressive, the man could not help themselves. That is disgusting and a cop out out of accepting his own behavior.
One thing that bothered me was that when people leave TWI, some believe that they will self destruct. I don't know if that is what happened with Anothen when he first got involved in drugs and all when he left and I don't know how much the drugs could have dulled his wit and self control and allowed him to do what he feared he would do.
The last time I read deeply about the subject, not all men who abuse go onto abuse again and again and again. But more than enough do although some don't. That could be Anothen who may never again. But I do know that it was just recently in my corner of the world that the police and schools were able to notify us if a child molester moved into our neighborhood. I don't think if it is a level one, but if they are a level 2 or 3. I do know that there has been a movement to stop that, saying that it interfered with the rights of the men (usually) involved although comitting crimes does negate certain rights as a citizen.
It is my personal belief that listing should remain intact forever. We had one guy move into a town, the town was notified, the villagers picked up their pitchforks and protested. Eventually they got tired of it and went away but the police kept a good eye on the man and interceded as the man lured a boy into his car one day. Good.
The best thing a "reformed, repentant" abuser can do if they wanted to help is to tell us how they operate, not how the National Child Abuser Listing should be changed. They can tell us what it was that made them pick their victim, what they search for in parental/child relationships that makes one child easier than another. They can tell us how these predators wait and lurk. What does the predator learn about the child and how do they learn it? What jobs do they get in order to gain access to children. Do they come in contact with the children's parents? Do they try to gain the trust of the child and parents and hey, maybe even school officials? How do they cover their tracks? What lies do they tell the children to be able to touch them and have the child remain quiet about it afterwards? Do they use threats of killing the child, or do they threaten to kill the child's family or do they (oh and many of them do do this) themselves tell the child that if Mom and Dad and their Pastor find out what happened, no one would love them anymore because now they are dirty? There you have the abuser himself putting that stigma of being damaged goods and not society.
Sexual abuse is generally not a hit and run crime. It takes much planning to do it and get away with it.
How did Anothen gain access to his victim?
Being a victim of abuse, I have studied long and hard in group therapy and in private counseling to see what happened to me, and to learn it was NOT me but rather the perpetrator.
It was not my fault I was abused but rather I had the unfortunate circumstance to be born younger into a family that had a predator in it. NO child asks to be sexually abused. No child deserves it no matter what they do.
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ChattyKathy
Good point! Well let me just say to you with all my heart....if he contacts you please tell Paw.
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FreeAtLast
Amen Out There. I am with you, someone that is holding such a reduced opinion of his actions is certainly not healthy. And as my experience has been these men always have the temptation. I think ignoring the guy is a good plan.
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GT
Just a reminder that it is against GS policy to post information about the real identity of any poster.
Many people choose to remain anonymous for varying reasons and GS will always respect that, irregardless of the person or what they post.
This is in no way an endorsement of Anothen, what he did, or what he has posted.
There is a reason why we keep the mug shot of another pedophile on the front page of GS. This topic has been discussed at length by the moderators on what to do about it without any consensus -- suffice to say that if Anothen farts in the wrong direction he's out of here. And anyone who knows me personally knows I hold no sympathy for any pedophile.
On the other hand, I think Anothen has done GS a service. He has provided a look into the disgusting mind of a pedophile. TWI attracted a lot of messed up people, including pedophiles. And it is a known fact that The Way International covered up their crimes, moved them around, and provided them access to new victims. All indications are that The Way International still supports Mark Naberschnig while he is serving his prison time. Reading this thread, I don't know how anyone could not feel anything but disgust and anger at TWI's leadership.
You can configure the forum to ignore any posts and refuse any PMs from anyone. This is done by clicking on the "My Controls" link on the menu, then the "PM Block List" and "Manage Ignored Users".
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cman
Anothen is also a good review of how the mind can justify and even feel free to do the same crime.
Which is imo the reason in his mind that he posted.
Seeing how he left when the heat was turned up.
If the mind has been doing things a certain way for a period of time,
and it needs to change.
Then it must be forced to change by the mind holder or it will not change.
Except when there is no other choice, when the Lord gets a hold of it.
In this life one must forcefully change their thinking and patterns of thought.
Which includes recognizing them and facing them.
Hopefully he will one day.....
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ChattyKathy
It's certainly been a learning thread for me.
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FullCircle
Anothen
I was able to read some of the info about you as well as others here and one thing occured to me. Besides being in therapy and learning to understand your own twisted logic that allowed you to do what you did and which also would keep you doing what you did, unless you could undo that way of thinking..ie children are sexually aggressive, I see that you think that just because you only molested one child and not another that it is unfair for you to be labeled as a sexual predator for life. I have also gleaned from the information that you have presented that you think that having a National Sexual Offender list on people is a bad thing and that you actually claim it will make more children vunerable to being molested.
I don't know how you come up with your rationales but I do believe I know what is prompting them. I believe you are part of a movement, one that has been successful before, that has stopped local police from being able to notify communities when a known child abuse offender has moved into their town.
I pray that any group, ACLU and those who would fight for taking away the ability to notify communities of people like you moving into town falls flat on their face.
The one thing worse than having a known child abuse offender move into your town is NOT knowing about the child abuse offender moving into your town.
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ChattyKathy
There was a CSI episode where someone studied the sex offenders in their area so they could use one as target for a crime they intended to do themselves. And in that case the registered sex offender was falsely accused and taken in for questioning. But even in his innocence in that crime he displayed a living illness inside his head and that probably is more true than not in society. For someone to think it is better to have sexual relations with a child over an adult is so far removed from normal thinking that I can't begin to go there. Even still I would hope these men and women could have a means to get as healthy as possible for their own sanity yet never be allowed in a situation where their unhealthy temptations could be put into action.
I lost a friend on many years in Florida due to her little girl revealing the indications of abuse which I knew all too intimately. It was a rough call for me to make at that time but when I changed her little boy's diaper one time when I was watching him I noticed something not right (no need to describe) as well as I noticed him looking in my eyes with fear as I changed him. That was what pulled me out of my stupor and I told her privately that day when she returned to pick him up that I suspected both her children were being abused by her husband (their dad). She became angry and we never spoke again. What became of that family I later learned was a divorce and I had always hoped it was my actions that prompted her to look into matters and hopefully protect those children. I would do it over a million times and lose a friend in a heartbeat for it.
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satori001
Wrong place, wrong time, for this dialog.
Oenophile, I agree with you otherwise.
Of course his heart isn't "pure." Anothen may NEVER be able to grasp what he's done other than intellectually.
I think an opportunity was lost. There are "boundaries," and then there are blinders. We HAVE boundaries, and there is nothing wrong with reinforcing them.
Do it rationally, not rashly. It is because of the blinders that so many victims fail to recognize the boundaries.
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ChattyKathy
I know and it took a few more steps inside myself to get there and I know you are addressing the board but you are also addressing me and have aided in where I am today. Which you know quite well my friend.
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doojable
Satoori,
I'm not clear on what you meant by "an opportunity lost". I'm always open to learn and I am usually the one that errs on the side of forgiveness. I never said not to forgive this man. My concern in this thread has been to keep the boundaries firm and to take the blinders off. You may not have been addressing me here - but I feel the need to respond just the same.
You can either respond to me here or in a PM.
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satori001
Enter anothen. He makes his confession. He wants to "educate" us. So what? He isn't in control here. He is just another poster, and you can engage in dialog, you can confront his inconsistences on an intellectual level, and thereby better understand him, or you can just flame him in effigy. And what's to be gained by that, by drowning him out, and preventing others from questioning him? Peace of mind? Satisfaction? I don't think so.
Okay, how often do we hear from someone like anothen? How often do we hear from someone like him, who is willing to concede he was wrong? Whether or not he considers himself an "instructor," what he reveals about himself could be very instructive.
Now, I get that he doesn't seem to "feel" wrong, and that his grief has more to do with his own woes than the "mild embarrassment" he caused a 9-year old girl. I get that he may try it again some day. I get that something evil may yet dwell within him, and it may always be there.
But I also see there is more to him than that evil, and there might be the opportunity for questioning him. Sure, I could read books and articles, and I have.
Now I have good reason to dislike a man who likes little girls in that way, and "dislike" is quite an understatement. But I also have good reason to understand what I can because it is my understanding, not my instinct for visceral loathing, that may save my little girl some day. Loathing comes after the fact, unfortunately.
I have no right to demand that Greasespot tolerate this kind of dialog, and as many have pointed out, anothen's presence here is problematic at the very least. This is not an academic forum or some professional review. Here we're just people.
Nevertheless, like oenophile, I saw an opportunity, and in a collective reflex resembling something like mass hysteria, that opportunity was lost. Oenophile saw the possibility for redemption (not for GS's forgiveness, or approval), and I saw the possibility for allowing him to work out his redemption by contributing to my understanding. I am being somewhat less generous here than oenophile. I have a reason to be pragmatic.
I don't think that the "villagers with pitchforks" reaction serves anyone on an internet forum (we're not talking about a neighborhood here), but it is perfectly understandable and in that light, I don't want to sound critical. It's unlikely I might have gained any insight from anothen that might protect my little girl some day, but it's possible. It isn't that there aren't other resources, they abound. But this opportunity was unique.
That is what I mean.
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doojable
Satoori,
I understand your point. I was never of a mind to ban him from here. (I couldn't do that anyway.) I was just unwilling to give him "atta boys."
Also, I was privy to some of the angst that never made it to this thread - and it concerned me.
Did he really want to educate us? I didn't read that - but then again, my focus was elsewhere. I'll consider all these points for the future.
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Out There
Satoori-
the guy is a predator, Do you think the next 9 year old "sexually aggressive" little girl is going to stand a chance up against him. Biblically they would make him always have a white rock outside the tent he stayed in so everyone would always know that he was a rapist. This is how they stayed 'marked' for life.
If the guy showed predatory behavior once and his words sound like he doesn't think that it was 100% sealed and locked up wrong he WILL do it again.
How sexually aggressive do you think a child of 9 can be?
He shouldn't be in our camp. He is a danger to society wherever he is, perhaps a few more YEARS of sexual predator therapy could help but I wouldn't put any of my money on it.
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cman
we didn't run him off
he left on his own
just wtf did he expect?don't know
he will not answer
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satori001
If they put a white rock outside his tent, does that mean they permitted him to live, and to live among them? Were they just aware? I'm all for awareness. I'm probably less tolerant than the white-rock folks, Out There.
"If the guy showed predatory behavior once and his words sound like he doesn't think that it was 100% sealed and locked up wrong he WILL do it again." - And how does banning him from Greasespot affect that likelihood?
"How sexually aggressive do you think a child of 9 can be?" - When I was younger than 9, maybe 7 or 8, my family rented an apartment by the ocean. In the same complex there was a girl about my age, maybe a year older, named Leslie. Over the course of the summer, she took each of the boys under the boardwalk to "play," where she challenged us to show, and be shown. We were shown, whether or not we wanted to be. We knew we were doing something "naughty," but we didn't know why. She was obviously a pedophile, OutThere, and I was her victim. Don't you think? (Looking back now I suspect Leslie herself had been molested.)
Children are not "aggressive" in the way adults are, but they become aware of their own bodies at a very young age, and they are completely uninhibited. Their innate curiosity extends beyond themselves to one another, and to anyone they may trust. This natural and normal behavior is part of a child's development. A normal adult will gently (not hysterically) but firmly and consistently establish and enforce proper boundaries. (A local daycare uses the bathing suit rule - if the bathing suit covers it, that's your private place and nobody should touch you there.) The child learns those boundaries like learning anything else. But a pedophile, as an example, may exploit a child's natural curiosity, and "allow" the child to explore further and further beyond those boundaries, telling himself he is a passive object of the child's "aggression."
--
The original harm is caused by an adult eroticizing the child's body, and therefore its sense of self, long before the natural maturation process which leads up to puberty can take place. Budding sexuality makes normal teenagers "crazy," so consider the impact it must have on young children's emotional state, when they should be working out their place in their families, and learning to relate, converse, share, play with their little friends. They are in no way ready to process sexual experience, and when awakened sexuality becomes the over-riding context for every other aspect of their development, their childhood is virtually stolen from them.
The secondary harm is societal. Shame is imposed upon them by the puritanical mores that inform and define some of our deepest contemporary "values." Those values are relatively new to the human race. We'd have died out as a race long ago had every generation waited until 18 because they only lived into their early twenties. Who was raising those children? Some more primitive cultures draw the line of adulthood at 12. Templelady discussed this with respect to certain Eskimo tribes, and the impact of imposing Western Protestant values upon them.
Nevertheless, we do shame children, when they are victimized by pedophiles. We even make them share some of the pedophile's guilt, as we do with other rape victims, come to think of it. Why is that? They have been defiled, and therefore devalued. Not to themselves, to us. It's just such an awful sin. What if they cooperated? What if they even enjoyed it a little bit? And of course they did (our internal dialogue subtly whispers, despite ourselves) so they are GUILTY too.
--
When it comes to sex, our culture is probably just as dysfunctional as fundamentalist Islamic societies, maybe not as overtly misogynistic, and somewhat less violent. But we probably put just as many head trips and hang ups on ourselves - and our children - as any bearded Islamic savages, who stone women for having sex out of wedlock, and for much less, and even for dishonoring their familes by getting raped.
So the pedophile steals the victim's childhood, and though the rest of us all proudly say "Kill, kill, kill the pedophile," society enthusiastically continues his work, perpetuating soul murder by shaming victims with a lifetime of whispers, looks and awkward silences.
--
So why does satori want to talk to the pedophile? Because I think that contemporary American society is only slightly less twisted than he is, and only by emerging from our own, collective darkness and shame do we begin to heal, and through healing, more effectively deal with an epidemic of pedophilia. That requires communication and understanding (not sympathy or justification). The absolute worst thing we can do is drive pedophilia back into the shadows, where it is most dangerous.
Being a dysfunctional society, we can't bring ourselves to do what's necessary. We can only react, attack what we both fear and misunderstand, and by isolating it, we ignorantly empower it. I understand that and I don't condemn anyone for it. It is what it is.
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pond
WELL THEN
So open a web site where in the names and dates of their crimes can be verified and they can be amoung their own ilk.
why here?
I do not have a pitch fork but i also have zero desire to hear what he thinks or why or understand.
they decieve the most innocent in our society to meet their perverted needs , they know it is wrong and they know it is illegal .
they are not forth coming or honest.
any entertenmain from their opinion is NOT understanding from us it is exploiting at best.
and i honestly doubt they are going to give up their dark secrets to a community they well know doesnt accept it as ok.
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ChattyKathy
When I posted that I was sorry that we couldn't allow someone of this type into our world here because I thought I could have learned from him in a more personal way than reading stats readily available yet a safe way because this is still the net and not the street where I live.
And I was sad to see there was no room for him here but I became aware by way of some sound advice given me here that this particular thing was not so much about him but about my boundaries and what was safe for me to do.
I'm still digesting the whole thing and looking at those suggestions of boundaries which I believe in time would allow me to engage in a dialog with someone that could have been my abuser had it been the right circumstances. I can't face my adult rapist not can I my childhood one as he is dead but something inside of me led me towards welcoming him from the start.
Then I saw more deeply that he was still quite ill and I was not safe not because of him but because of me.
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Abigail
That sounds all nice and clinical Satori, but personally I already understand all too well how such a dark and twisted mind works, how it justifies, rationalizes and blames. None of that information, that view and understanding of the insanity inside such a mind, has helped me heal. Nor has it helped me protect my kids.
You want to protect your children? Educate them. Teach them boundaries, teach them how to maintain their boundaries. Talk to them ALOT. With that, supervise, supervise, supervise. Think long and hard about who you leave them with when you aren't there to supervise. Listen to what your instincts tell you about them - if necessary do a background check.
Better to offend someone by NOT leaving your child with them, than risk having your child injured. You think a background check is going to far? paranoid? My son had a friend whose mom seemed okay, but her boyfriend creeped me out. I did a background check, he was a registered sex offender. The mom knew!!!!! and let this man around her children. My child - never ever will he play at their house.
My children also know how to say no to adults. Teacher's, parents, any adult. They understand they listen to their parents. They understand they listen to other adults only within certain boundaries. They understand mom will back them up if they say no to another adult in the proper context (and that includes some circumstances outside the sexual arena as well.)
None of that is a guarantee - there are no guarantees. But it is a damned good starting place.
As for healing . . . again it is boundaries. When you are molested as a child, as you said, your boundaries are destroyed. Someone has to teach you boundaries, you have to learn boundaries. When you finally reach that place inside, where you know where your boundaries are, where you learn it is okay to protect your boundaries, when you learn HOW to protect your boundaries - then the healing can occur. Then you can come to understand what happened wasn't your fault, that you bear no shame, that what the other person did was their horrendous shame, not yours.
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Abigail
Satori,
What do you think it does inside the adults here who were molested as a children, when they read a pedophile's words about "sexually aggressive children", when they see the pedophile once again blaming the child? Do you think such words can in any way help them heal? Or does it send them right back to that place where they lived as a child? To that place of self blame, guilt, shame?
Do you have any idea how many years, how much work it takes to overcome those thoughts and feelings of guilt and shame? Do you have any idea how hard you have to fight on a daily basis not to fall right back into that place of guilt and shame?
Are you so sure this guy doesn't understand, probably better than you, how to push someone right back into that place? Are you sure this guy wasn't trying to do just that - to revictimize the victims?
I suspect, this guy who knew how to work his way into a 9 year old girls life is smart enough not to show his hand so early in the game. Smart enough to know the words he chose "sexually agressive" only "fondled her", she was only "a little embarassed" - I suspect he knew those words would show his hand. I suspect, he didn't care that it would show his hand.
I suspect he gets off on it.
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TheInvisibleDan
When Jesus entered into Capernaum, a certain centurion (whose slave was dear to him) saw him, and entreated him: ‘Lord, my slave lies at home, motionless and on the verge of death.’ And Jesus said ‘I will come and heal him.’
But the Centurion answered, ‘Lord, I am unworthy of you entering beneath my roof; only utter the command, and my boy will be healed.’ When Jesus heard this, he marvelled..” Truly I say to you - not in Israel have I encountered such trust!” And Jesus said to the centurion: ‘Go! As you have trusted, such for you will be done!’ And his [sex] slave was healed that very hour.’
John the Baptist was outraged! When he heard this report in prison, he dispatched two of his disciples to question him: “Are you the one expected to come - or shall we expect another?”
-Reconstruction, derived from Q, Marcion, Matt.8:5-13/Luke 7:2; Acts of Pilate ch.8).
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cman
would that sex slave be a 9 year old girl?
doubt it
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cman
I get what you are saying Danny.
Yes 'go and sin no more'.
And how is this accomplished?
He laid only part of it on the table.
It is hard to come clean, and anothen is not.
For those who know I was an alcoholic.
Many believe and still label me that.
Though it's not a crime, it does hurt people.
And I have beaten the things that led me to drink.
And watch out for other things too.
But I must keep a sharp eye on myself or I will go back.
Not because I'm not healed of it.
But because I know the road to drinking for me.
They say in the meetings of which I attended many.
"I am an alcoholic"
One must face this reality to beat it.
Anothen is not ready to face the reality of,
I am a child sex abuser and pedophile.
He has not admitted with honesty what he is.
But rather has come up with irrational thinking and excuses for what he did.
And when it was pointed out he ran.
He cannot run from himself though.
He will have to face it all sooner or later.
So 'go and sin no more' is more then those few words.
It takes facing that sin and beating it.
No matter what people say, and he was getting some good input here.
Till he left.
I don't know what kind of therapy he is doing but I do hope it works.
He's in a dangerous place right now in his mind.
He has not fully admitted to what he has done and realized the bigger problem.
Going through the motions of what he's told to do but not in heart.
As evidenced by his departure.
Perhaps he gained something positive, perhaps not.
I can't say that this can be beaten because I've never been where he is.
But I think he can, but not alone.
Wearing the label of pedophile would be a door of utterance to tell his deliverance.
I must be wearing an alcoholic label for life.
Though it's only those who know that know it.
Some know I beat it, some think otherwise.
I can't control anyones thoughts but my own.
So I don't worry about it.
And would be glad to help anyone beat alcoholism.
So that's my take on it for now....
Go and sin no more means more then on the surface.
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ChattyKathy
I use to think it was wrong to keep repeating you were an alcoholic thinking it kept you in the soup rather than aided you but I have learned it is not keeping yourself there but remembering you had a reason to be one in the first place and that reason didn't go away never to return again. One has to remember where they came from in some instances so not to return there.
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FullCircle
As rape isn't about sex but about violence and rage and humiliation, so it is the same with those who abuse children, no matter what age the child is. It is about power and control and an adult human being that is so twisted within himself or herself that they can only relate in their own sick way to someone much less powerful in every aspect, which would be someone much much younger than themselves.
Harm is done when an adult assaults a child or teenager, whether that child or teenager speaks out about it. She/he can carry it in her/his soul for years alone and still feel the wound because it was not right. It goes deeper than societal norms. Most nine year olds or six year olds or toddlers have not been taught the facts of life and do not have that stigma of being or knowledge of being seen as 'damaged goods' and yet they bear the marks of the behavior of the sexually perverse adult.
This is why ancient tribal customs or maybe not so ancient tribal customs do not apply as that was a totally different issue in people marrying younger than they do today. Although I believe that giving a young girl to a fat rich man who already has five wives isn't all that much different, but at least the girl had to contend with other wives and concubines before he got to her, if he was interested at all since it was usually a political move than an old man wanting a young girl.
Now if you get a child who is sexually advanced as Satori mentioned in his post, you will find a child who has already been sexually abused or has been exposed to adult sexual themes and has in turn started to act it out. There are certain brain impairments or disabilities that may cause a child to mature quicker and faster (like Fetal Alcohol Syndrome and other factors) but with proper instruction and definite adult supervision, no damage to others will be caused.
It is known in the area of dealing with and counseling those who suffered abuse that the reaction of the adults around them when it become public knowledge will either serve to help the child or make the damage even worse. If you have other adults who blame the child, who treat the child like crap because of what happened to them, or turn a blind eye and not see what is happening to the child, it makes it worse. It doesn't create the problem, it makes it worse. The problem is the abuse.
When I first read Anothen's post, I missed a whole lot. I saw him talking about a man's natural sexual desires and totally missed the nine year old girl part. A man and a girl does not equate, no matter how or where it happens in time or place. Many many abusers do blame the girl/boy saying that because they were so sexually aggressive, the man could not help themselves. That is disgusting and a cop out out of accepting his own behavior.
One thing that bothered me was that when people leave TWI, some believe that they will self destruct. I don't know if that is what happened with Anothen when he first got involved in drugs and all when he left and I don't know how much the drugs could have dulled his wit and self control and allowed him to do what he feared he would do.
The last time I read deeply about the subject, not all men who abuse go onto abuse again and again and again. But more than enough do although some don't. That could be Anothen who may never again. But I do know that it was just recently in my corner of the world that the police and schools were able to notify us if a child molester moved into our neighborhood. I don't think if it is a level one, but if they are a level 2 or 3. I do know that there has been a movement to stop that, saying that it interfered with the rights of the men (usually) involved although comitting crimes does negate certain rights as a citizen.
It is my personal belief that listing should remain intact forever. We had one guy move into a town, the town was notified, the villagers picked up their pitchforks and protested. Eventually they got tired of it and went away but the police kept a good eye on the man and interceded as the man lured a boy into his car one day. Good.
The best thing a "reformed, repentant" abuser can do if they wanted to help is to tell us how they operate, not how the National Child Abuser Listing should be changed. They can tell us what it was that made them pick their victim, what they search for in parental/child relationships that makes one child easier than another. They can tell us how these predators wait and lurk. What does the predator learn about the child and how do they learn it? What jobs do they get in order to gain access to children. Do they come in contact with the children's parents? Do they try to gain the trust of the child and parents and hey, maybe even school officials? How do they cover their tracks? What lies do they tell the children to be able to touch them and have the child remain quiet about it afterwards? Do they use threats of killing the child, or do they threaten to kill the child's family or do they (oh and many of them do do this) themselves tell the child that if Mom and Dad and their Pastor find out what happened, no one would love them anymore because now they are dirty? There you have the abuser himself putting that stigma of being damaged goods and not society.
Sexual abuse is generally not a hit and run crime. It takes much planning to do it and get away with it.
How did Anothen gain access to his victim?
Being a victim of abuse, I have studied long and hard in group therapy and in private counseling to see what happened to me, and to learn it was NOT me but rather the perpetrator.
It was not my fault I was abused but rather I had the unfortunate circumstance to be born younger into a family that had a predator in it. NO child asks to be sexually abused. No child deserves it no matter what they do.
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