But all in all, I think they learned a few things- the offshoots that is.
They still do have something to sell- but not high pressure, anybody who's anybody's had da class, one size fits all product like PFAL and it's offspring. More like, "we have something that may help". Lots more honest. No or far less stupid, unreasonable claims- at least on the advertising end of the organizations. The ones I have had experiences with, this is the case. If you want their classes, fine. If not, that's OK too. No second class citizenry if you don't.
That's kinda what I meant when I said that TWI wouldn't last three seconds after the bell rung.
They wouldn't. Anybody who's anybody- at least that could- have left- and a lot of good folks ended up in at least one offshoot I know. TWI wouldn't last a minute..
If biblical truth is so readily apparent, and black & white, then why are there so many disagreements among and even within denominations? Can they all have an axe to grind doctrinally? Can they all have trouble reading? Pick any topic and you'll find at least two positions on it.
Oakspear, you make an excellent point. Christians have been squabbling for two millenia over the the "truth verses error" discussion, regarding doctrine.
The essence of Christianity has to be much deeper than that. Or else it wouldn't have survived the arguments, persecutions, wars, etc. ;)-->
If biblical truth is so readily apparent, and black & white, then why are there so many disagreements among and even within denominations? Can they all have an axe to grind doctrinally? Can they all have trouble reading? Pick any topic and you'll find at least two positions on it.
Don't know about readily apparent, and black & white, those are not my words. I think I said truth or error. But just because something is readily apparent does not mean that everyone will see it. Some people like religion it is safe and comfortable to follow along and not to have to think for yourself. Neither does it mean people are perfect. Despite the fact that many Christians will never rise up to claim all that God has made them to be in Christ Jesus, it is still the privilege of each and every one to believe God at his Word. To those who do the riches of His revealed blessings are theirs. To those who do the price paid is appreciated and claimed. Those who have eyes to see and ears to hear will.
I think the offshoots have perfected the way it promotes themselves from the past mistakes of twi. Doesn't mean its totally different than twi, though.
Absolutely Because of the fact they came from the same teaching sources they will probably have a lot in common. And that could be good or bad depending on what it is.
Well WhiteDove, my neighbor to the south, you did use truth & error, this is true, but it was in rebuttal to Vickles and ex10. They said that things just weren't black and white, you wrote that you disagreed with them...
quote:
Sorry but I will have to disagree it IS that simple! truth is truth error is error
from which I inferred that by disagreeing with those who said it wasn't black and white, it was reasonable to assume that you believed that it was black and white.
Are you confused now? I hope so, because that's one of the weapons in my debating arsenal :P--> - confusion...and a fanatical devotion to the pope...ooh...that's two weapons...
Actually truth be told it was not a rebuttal to Vickles and Ex10 that was the second usage of truth is truth the first was used
before in the rebuttal prior to that. Now you see ya failed to check that first usage of a word like ya was taught and now you have gotten yourself in a truth quandery there neighbor. And thats the truth... :)-->
oakspear sure had it right in the post of 3-15-05 at about 3:00 PM.
our state Pennsylvania was one of those places which kinda got the boot from TWI
right after a whole bunch of in residence Way Corps people came back with quietly told stories of loyalty oaths and 3:00 AM wake up calls for signing off on same
i was too shall we say, unstructured to join Way Corps so i can't really say first hand about the loyalty oath thing
however, when the people who were there told their stories i'm sure that me and my wife's bullshot detectors weren't the only ones that shot right off the chart!!
either they taught us too well or we all learned too well that any so called "loyalty oath" was supposed to be between the individual and God alone. not to any person or group of people or anything else and also that such loyalty was much more in the heart than on paper.
of course being out of the loop as we were the only way i learned any of this is by talking with former corps people who claimed these things happened
so there we were in Pennsylvania with a whole bunch of way corp people who were instantly re-assigned by the top leadership as Corp grads no more limb, branch, territory, area or even twig co-ordinaters just corps grads.
but since they were the divil we knew (so to speak) everybody else just sort of went along with the same things we were doing and the man who was limb leader was still leading the state but not under the auspices of TWI
these days the people who were real big in TWI in PA are now doing pretty much the same things that they were doing then but after TWI they all went for Chris Geer's stuff real big
me and my wife even took the class that Chris Geer made called Walking in God's Power
which is pretty much the PFAL class without the jokes.
weird thing right before we took the new class we had to fill out some kind of form about going to fellowship and what not. i asked what's all this for and the fellow running the class said something like the top leadership doesn't want someone down the line to take and do these classes as a bootleg version or something if they go off the word or something like that.
i didn't have the heart to ask him that since were in our present condition because of LCM going off the deep end who's to say the same thing won't happen to CG somewhere down the road? then what do we do?
this is why we don't go to their meetings like we used to. too much politics. its not so bad when you can avoid the petty stuff but unfortunatly sometimes it just sucks the life out of a person
the thing that gets to me is when we go to a meeting or fellowship with people and we ask about someone we haven't seen in a while and all of a sudden the crowd gets all hushed and someone will say oh you don't want to go talking to that person
why not? and here's the kicker: they can't bring themselves to tell you
so right away there you are thinking all manner of evil about some schmoe who could have been your own brother some time ago but now he's persona non grata as far as all these folks are concerned. and YOU don't even know WHY!!
not too fun
this is why i can probably relate so readily to those of you who were what they called M&A from TWI. they didn't have M&A per se when me and Mrs. me were "in" but the effect was about the same.
I think the offshoots are proof that there was genuine substance in what was taught in TWI. Like Hope said time will tell, but CES is almost 18 yrs old and several others aren't far behind.
That's like saying because something has been around for a while it must be good. [and counting 20-60 years as a while] Baloney.
There are many human beliefs and practices that have been around for thousands of years that are terrible.
Substance to twi or it's offshoots? I think the fact that these offshoots even exist is a testimony more to the psychological make up of it followers rather than any "substance" that may lie resident within the organization itself.
Some folks thrive on having "spiritual gurus" run their lives for them...Some sort of "learned helplessness", fueled by a sense of self loathing and misdirection. It was really pathetic watching former twi folks rally around their favorite cult leader so that they could continue to be glassy eyed chumps...Sorta like watching a junkie go from heroin to methadone.
Some folks thrive on having "spiritual gurus" run their lives for them.
I have long sensed, lo for many years now, a void for the allegiance and disposable income of many an Ex-Wayfer. For those troubled souls I offer a partial solution, a truly worthy and trouble free place to deposit their dough - The Socks Collection Plate.
Benefits - many!
No meetings.
No classes.
No sales people will ever call!
No tax deduction.
No rules or regulations.
And most important-
No obligation! From me, to ever do anything, ever!
I accept PayPal and cash. Cash works. Send cash.
I make this offer in the interest of helping only. I'm here to help. Let me help you. Help is on the way! Accept the help and feel the love!
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Ham
Hey.. it'd be just perfect for one of those "celebrity deathmatch" things..
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Ham
But all in all, I think they learned a few things- the offshoots that is.
They still do have something to sell- but not high pressure, anybody who's anybody's had da class, one size fits all product like PFAL and it's offspring. More like, "we have something that may help". Lots more honest. No or far less stupid, unreasonable claims- at least on the advertising end of the organizations. The ones I have had experiences with, this is the case. If you want their classes, fine. If not, that's OK too. No second class citizenry if you don't.
That's kinda what I meant when I said that TWI wouldn't last three seconds after the bell rung.
They wouldn't. Anybody who's anybody- at least that could- have left- and a lot of good folks ended up in at least one offshoot I know. TWI wouldn't last a minute..
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Oakspear
If biblical truth is so readily apparent, and black & white, then why are there so many disagreements among and even within denominations? Can they all have an axe to grind doctrinally? Can they all have trouble reading? Pick any topic and you'll find at least two positions on it.
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ex10
Oakspear, you make an excellent point. Christians have been squabbling for two millenia over the the "truth verses error" discussion, regarding doctrine.
The essence of Christianity has to be much deeper than that. Or else it wouldn't have survived the arguments, persecutions, wars, etc.
;)-->
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WhiteDove
Don't know about readily apparent, and black & white, those are not my words. I think I said truth or error. But just because something is readily apparent does not mean that everyone will see it. Some people like religion it is safe and comfortable to follow along and not to have to think for yourself. Neither does it mean people are perfect. Despite the fact that many Christians will never rise up to claim all that God has made them to be in Christ Jesus, it is still the privilege of each and every one to believe God at his Word. To those who do the riches of His revealed blessings are theirs. To those who do the price paid is appreciated and claimed. Those who have eyes to see and ears to hear will.
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vickles
I think the offshoots have perfected the way it promotes themselves from the past mistakes of twi. Doesn't mean its totally different than twi, though.
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WhiteDove
Absolutely Because of the fact they came from the same teaching sources they will probably have a lot in common. And that could be good or bad depending on what it is.
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Oakspear
Well WhiteDove, my neighbor to the south, you did use truth & error, this is true, but it was in rebuttal to Vickles and ex10. They said that things just weren't black and white, you wrote that you disagreed with them...
from which I inferred that by disagreeing with those who said it wasn't black and white, it was reasonable to assume that you believed that it was black and white.Are you confused now? I hope so, because that's one of the weapons in my debating arsenal
:P--> - confusion...and a fanatical devotion to the pope...ooh...that's two weapons...
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WhiteDove
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WhiteDove
Actually truth be told it was not a rebuttal to Vickles and Ex10 that was the second usage of truth is truth the first was used
before in the rebuttal prior to that. Now you see ya failed to check that first usage of a word like ya was taught and now you have gotten yourself in a truth quandery there neighbor. And thats the truth...
:)-->
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Oakspear
where are biblical research keys when ya need 'em?
:D-->
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ljn698
oakspear sure had it right in the post of 3-15-05 at about 3:00 PM.
our state Pennsylvania was one of those places which kinda got the boot from TWI
right after a whole bunch of in residence Way Corps people came back with quietly told stories of loyalty oaths and 3:00 AM wake up calls for signing off on same
i was too shall we say, unstructured to join Way Corps so i can't really say first hand about the loyalty oath thing
however, when the people who were there told their stories i'm sure that me and my wife's bullshot detectors weren't the only ones that shot right off the chart!!
either they taught us too well or we all learned too well that any so called "loyalty oath" was supposed to be between the individual and God alone. not to any person or group of people or anything else and also that such loyalty was much more in the heart than on paper.
of course being out of the loop as we were the only way i learned any of this is by talking with former corps people who claimed these things happened
so there we were in Pennsylvania with a whole bunch of way corp people who were instantly re-assigned by the top leadership as Corp grads no more limb, branch, territory, area or even twig co-ordinaters just corps grads.
but since they were the divil we knew (so to speak) everybody else just sort of went along with the same things we were doing and the man who was limb leader was still leading the state but not under the auspices of TWI
these days the people who were real big in TWI in PA are now doing pretty much the same things that they were doing then but after TWI they all went for Chris Geer's stuff real big
me and my wife even took the class that Chris Geer made called Walking in God's Power
which is pretty much the PFAL class without the jokes.
weird thing right before we took the new class we had to fill out some kind of form about going to fellowship and what not. i asked what's all this for and the fellow running the class said something like the top leadership doesn't want someone down the line to take and do these classes as a bootleg version or something if they go off the word or something like that.
i didn't have the heart to ask him that since were in our present condition because of LCM going off the deep end who's to say the same thing won't happen to CG somewhere down the road? then what do we do?
this is why we don't go to their meetings like we used to. too much politics. its not so bad when you can avoid the petty stuff but unfortunatly sometimes it just sucks the life out of a person
the thing that gets to me is when we go to a meeting or fellowship with people and we ask about someone we haven't seen in a while and all of a sudden the crowd gets all hushed and someone will say oh you don't want to go talking to that person
why not? and here's the kicker: they can't bring themselves to tell you
so right away there you are thinking all manner of evil about some schmoe who could have been your own brother some time ago but now he's persona non grata as far as all these folks are concerned. and YOU don't even know WHY!!
not too fun
this is why i can probably relate so readily to those of you who were what they called M&A from TWI. they didn't have M&A per se when me and Mrs. me were "in" but the effect was about the same.
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My3Cents
That's like saying because something has been around for a while it must be good. [and counting 20-60 years as a while] Baloney.
There are many human beliefs and practices that have been around for thousands of years that are terrible.
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Steve!
The Roman Catholic church has been around for 1700 years so it must have some substance to it.
Most of the major Protestant religions are basically offshoots of the Catholic church, so they must have some substance to them.
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GrouchoMarxJr
Substance to twi or it's offshoots? I think the fact that these offshoots even exist is a testimony more to the psychological make up of it followers rather than any "substance" that may lie resident within the organization itself.
Some folks thrive on having "spiritual gurus" run their lives for them...Some sort of "learned helplessness", fueled by a sense of self loathing and misdirection. It was really pathetic watching former twi folks rally around their favorite cult leader so that they could continue to be glassy eyed chumps...Sorta like watching a junkie go from heroin to methadone.
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socks
I have long sensed, lo for many years now, a void for the allegiance and disposable income of many an Ex-Wayfer. For those troubled souls I offer a partial solution, a truly worthy and trouble free place to deposit their dough - The Socks Collection Plate.
Benefits - many!
No meetings.
No classes.
No sales people will ever call!
No tax deduction.
No rules or regulations.
And most important-
No obligation! From me, to ever do anything, ever!
I accept PayPal and cash. Cash works. Send cash.
I make this offer in the interest of helping only. I'm here to help. Let me help you. Help is on the way! Accept the help and feel the love!
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vickles
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