Twi has always treated women like second class citizens...
Their interference in marriages thwarted many relationships and destroyed the "natural balance" between the husband and wife by interjecting "assigned roles" that many did not fit into...
They had a "vision" of what a woman was supposed to be and what she was supposed to do...same with the husbands...and it really sucked.
Twi destroyed hundereds, if not thousands of marriages...a pox upon them all!
So Java, What really changed? (I mean in the eyes twi, I am not making an insult). They have always tried to make most women into the true weaker sex. Unless your gay or used to be you can expect to be treated like a third class citizen. Being a heterosexual woman in twi means that marriage puts you into a life of servitude, Get used to making watermelon balls for when the twig coordinators meet at your house. Get all the dust bunnys out from under the refrigerator (devil spirits hide in them) wash those windows, vacumm that rug and be sure to smile and feel like an idiot the whole time. Oh, yea, be sure to ask your husband if it's alright to make bologna sandwiches for his lunch.
I think their idea of what a wife is to be is pretty archaic. If my wife were like that I think I would throw her out. thank God she is a wonderful person who can hold her own.
TWI always said that the woman had to be a strong Godly woman so that she didn't destroy her husband like some modern day Delilah. In reality, if you were strong you were really "headstrong" and "disobedient." Then naturally of course, the husband was weak and most probably a homo.
I never fit that mold - I ran like the devil from it.
TWI always said that the woman had to be a strong Godly woman so that she didn't destroy her husband like some modern day Delilah. In reality, if you were strong you were really "headstrong" and "disobedient." Then naturally of course, the husband was weak and most probably a homo.
I never fit that mold - I ran like the devil from it.
It always irritated me, the general idea that women were cast as the temptresses because of what Eve supposedly did... And Bathsheba - that sl*t! She took down David! And what about Solomon's wives... Those evil idolatrous whores!
And remember - God only spoke to Debra because no man had "risen up"... As if God somehow stooped to her level to speak to someone about it.
But what they all forget is that the MEN in these records were RESPONSIBLE for their own actions and for KEEPING IT IN THEIR PANTS.
And they forgot about how God told Abraham to hearken to Sarah... or Abigail taking care of David, or Mary who had the courage to bear Jesus Christ (without permission from her espoused husband), or how many other countless women did wonderful things for God...
I can honestly say, I never wanted a man who would be the type to blame his own actions on his wife. And mine doesn't.
Even my father in law (Catholic) found it very strange at our wedding that women did not handle the coordination of anything except handing out the flowers. It bothered him so much he pulled me aside later on and asked me about it... especially since he had heard we had a woman president.
Check out the thread in Doctrinal on "The Harlot at the Side of the Road." There are some great thoughts on being female in their... awesome stuff.
I had just turned 21 when I got married. I'd been in TWI for about 4 years and wanted to climb the corporate ladder. But the man I married not only suddenly thought it was his position to MAKE a bazillion stupid decisions for me each day (i.e. thaw the meat on the kitchen counter vs. thaw the meat in the microwave), but he came to a point where he wouldn't do SQUAT without checking with leadership first - ON EVERYTHING.
Seriously. He became so unsure of himself and everything he did because he was always getting a ration from leadership, that he probably would have called the BC to ask if he should use Regular Unleaded or Super Unleaded when he filled up the car. THANK GOD we didn't have a cell phone back then!
I was raised to be an independent woman - my current husband will tell you that when we dated, I offered to split the tab because I was raised that men do not OWE you anything simply because you're a woman. So, this crap of being micromanaged really bothered me...
Oh yeah... they'd have tattooed Ephesians 5 inside my eyelids if they thought it would have made a difference. We got the "he doesn't know how to lead" and "you don't know how to submit" talk many, many times. He couldn't lead because he was treated like he could NEVER do ANYTHING right... and I couldn't submit because, well... a lot of it was... well... it was STOOPID.
It took me years to decompress from that. Hubby will tell you that I now no longer call him before I spend $5 on myself (althought he probably wishes I would... I no longer write out a detailed menu for the week and shopping list.... and other such drivel that he could give a rodent's anus about. Life is too short for that crap! We even have separate hobbies - GASP! - and support each other's silly pasttimes (see the guitar thread for what I support for him - see my dog and computer threads for what he supports of mine...)
But you know what? I didn't realize how much of myself I gave up to please my first husband until several years after our separation and divorce. I also didn't realize how much of myself I gave up to be in TWI until just a couple of years ago - I've been out for 7 years. It's a robbery of who you are and what makes you YOU. It was gone - you were stripped of it and had to be this Stepford Way Wife who wore big earrings and got excited about hanging the new ministry poster on the wall for the new ministry year. whoo-hoo.
I think twi is totally in the fog on how men should treat woman.
At one time I was in the oil business. I sold mostly to farmers. What I noticed on my journey from farm to farm was that many farmers were single. So at one particular farm I had an opportunity to talk to a married couple and I told them of my observation concerning the single farmers. I asked them why there were so many single farmers, was it the work etc. I will never forget the answer I received from this woman, she said to me "if a man knows how to love a woman, he will never have a problem finding a wife".
The moral is, twi doesn't teach people how to love. It's all about following the system.
The Way's treatment of women is one of the first things that bothered me, and caused me to eventually leave. It wasn't the only piece of their doctrine that bothered me, but it was the first one I remember disliking. I always have, and still do, believe that relationships are a partnership between two equals. I also know that as a man, my decisions are not always better.
I'm very happy that I married a beautiful, intelligent, loving woman who was never taught that she was inferior to anyone else. An added bonus is that she knows I.T. so I can even complain to her about work and she has good practical advice on that too. :-)
OK-----Here comes something that is only opinion---------- again.
I think a lot of these man/woman concepts, that have languished in TWI for so long, came not from the Bible, but from the personal upbringing and experiences of the early leaders. Remember, VPW and associates came of age during the Great Depression and as such reflected the social mores and idiosyncracies of their generation.
Somehow it got assigned some sort of Biblical basis and that was acceped as the "OFFICIAL" stance on related issues.
You really have to disregard what has been taught or perpetuated in The Way( or any other group, for that matter) and look at what the Bible( or the holy scrit that applies to your particular faith) actually says about the roles that men and women are to fulfil in a marriage.
Then, you have to try to understand that within the context of the society in which we live.
It's no longer as simple as " Me Tarzan. you Jane".
WHO knew that getting married meant that God would no longer speak to you unless through your spouse and that was after the tc...etc.
It was bad enough being a woman/2nd class citizen in twi...but when you married you were 3rd class...the only thing thiong lower in the food chain was children.
I never thought of this before, but when we were on staff and confronted, Hubby had been confronted several times BY HIMSELF.
He knew we were getting pulled into Br@d Th0rpe's office that morning long before I knew about it.
During the confrontation I wasn't allowed to speak - I was told to SIT and LISTEN (and that's not SIT = Speak In Tongues).
I was allowed input at the end - after it was over and by that time our whole world - everything - was shattered....
I never thought about how that came down that day until now... and that was part of the homo purge... interesting...
Bolshevik - Correct me if I'm wrong here, but I thought there was some scripture about how if someone has an issue with your wife, they're supposed to go to YOU, the head, FIRST. I remember being taught that protocol when I was TC and needed to call someone out for something - if it was a wife, I was supposed to speak with her keeper... er, I mean... Husband...
I never thought of this before, but when we were on staff and confronted, Hubby had been confronted several times BY HIMSELF.
He knew we were getting pulled into Br@d Th0rpe's office that morning long before I knew about it.
During the confrontation I wasn't allowed to speak - I was told to SIT and LISTEN (and that's not SIT = Speak In Tongues).
I was allowed input at the end - after it was over and by that time our whole world - everything - was shattered....
I never thought about how that came down that day until now... and that was part of the homo purge... interesting...
Bolshevik - Correct me if I'm wrong here, but I thought there was some scripture about how if someone has an issue with your wife, they're supposed to go to YOU, the head, FIRST. I remember being taught that protocol when I was TC and needed to call someone out for something - if it was a wife, I was supposed to speak with her keeper... er, I mean... Husband...
Exactly, I brought that subject of confrontation up to her Cabinet idiot about another subject. He blew it off. He was ready to kick my wife off Staff but have me stay.
Anything I wanted to say to Rivenbark I was to do IN WRITING.
Her department coordinator ran our marriage. It still gets me ENRAGED.
Exactly, I brought that subject of confrontation up to her Cabinet idiot about another subject. He blew it off. He was ready to kick my wife off Staff but have me stay.
Anything I wanted to say to Rivenbark I was to do IN WRITING.
Her department coordinator ran our marriage. It still gets me ENRAGED.
They are devils. The whole lot of them.
I would have said FARGING ICEHOLES myself, but devils works, too.
Same thing happened to my parents in the WC - it was ok for Dad to take the kids, but my Mom had to go - she was to "willfull".
BASTARDS!!!
I think my hubby really got a clue about how bad it was when he tried to talk to our coordinator (you know who, B) and was called a "Bro" and told that he really understood why he was concerned since I was kicking up such a fuss about things... But then when I got pulled aside he said that he was really sick of all the fiances, fathers, and husbands who kept sticking their noses in his business when he felt their women needed confronting.
When my man heard that one, he blew his top. How dare he call him a "brother" and then stab him in the back?
I think I may have struck a nasty chord with this thread...
begin rant
I'm still mad. MAD MAD MAD MAD MAD!!!
How dare someone try to come between a man and his wife - pollute the beauty of a sacrament of GOD that was set up AT THE VERY BEGINNING?
AND THEN PROFESS TO BE DOING GOD'S WILL???
It must make God sick to be said to be the reason for so many marriages splitting up.
Who was usurping the head? THEY WERE!! They broke down the man's courage. They put things in place to make the wives keep their mouths shut so that they couldn't give their husbands advice. And if that didn't work, they destroyed her reputation, marking her as a Jezebel... if they had managed to castrate the husband by then, they worked on removing the woman... If he wasn't castrated, they accused him of HAVING NO BALLS (what the heck?) and kicked them both out.
And it would be better for a millstone to be tied around their neck and have them be tossed into the ocean than to do the things they did - God knows. He sees.
It's a good thing vengeance belongs to God. I know he'll do it right.
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Bolshevik
The reason I got married was so I could constantly make a bazillion menial decisions for another person every day.
Not.
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GrouchoMarxJr
Twi has always treated women like second class citizens...
Their interference in marriages thwarted many relationships and destroyed the "natural balance" between the husband and wife by interjecting "assigned roles" that many did not fit into...
They had a "vision" of what a woman was supposed to be and what she was supposed to do...same with the husbands...and it really sucked.
Twi destroyed hundereds, if not thousands of marriages...a pox upon them all!
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Out There
So Java, What really changed? (I mean in the eyes twi, I am not making an insult). They have always tried to make most women into the true weaker sex. Unless your gay or used to be you can expect to be treated like a third class citizen. Being a heterosexual woman in twi means that marriage puts you into a life of servitude, Get used to making watermelon balls for when the twig coordinators meet at your house. Get all the dust bunnys out from under the refrigerator (devil spirits hide in them) wash those windows, vacumm that rug and be sure to smile and feel like an idiot the whole time. Oh, yea, be sure to ask your husband if it's alright to make bologna sandwiches for his lunch.
I think their idea of what a wife is to be is pretty archaic. If my wife were like that I think I would throw her out. thank God she is a wonderful person who can hold her own.
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Bolshevik
and if the wife doesn't do as Out There described, it must be because of the weakness of the husband.
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doojable
TWI always said that the woman had to be a strong Godly woman so that she didn't destroy her husband like some modern day Delilah. In reality, if you were strong you were really "headstrong" and "disobedient." Then naturally of course, the husband was weak and most probably a homo.
I never fit that mold - I ran like the devil from it.
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JavaJane
It always irritated me, the general idea that women were cast as the temptresses because of what Eve supposedly did... And Bathsheba - that sl*t! She took down David! And what about Solomon's wives... Those evil idolatrous whores!
And remember - God only spoke to Debra because no man had "risen up"... As if God somehow stooped to her level to speak to someone about it.
But what they all forget is that the MEN in these records were RESPONSIBLE for their own actions and for KEEPING IT IN THEIR PANTS.
And they forgot about how God told Abraham to hearken to Sarah... or Abigail taking care of David, or Mary who had the courage to bear Jesus Christ (without permission from her espoused husband), or how many other countless women did wonderful things for God...
I can honestly say, I never wanted a man who would be the type to blame his own actions on his wife. And mine doesn't.
Even my father in law (Catholic) found it very strange at our wedding that women did not handle the coordination of anything except handing out the flowers. It bothered him so much he pulled me aside later on and asked me about it... especially since he had heard we had a woman president.
Check out the thread in Doctrinal on "The Harlot at the Side of the Road." There are some great thoughts on being female in their... awesome stuff.
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Bolshevik
Don't worry. Rivenbark has made sure that when there is an affair, only the man is punished.
(not talking about me here)
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JavaJane
That one took me a minute, Mr. B... but I got it now.
Here's the link to the thread in Doctrinal, in case anyone is interested:
CLICK HERE
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ChasUFarley
Holy crap...
Where to start on this one...
I had just turned 21 when I got married. I'd been in TWI for about 4 years and wanted to climb the corporate ladder. But the man I married not only suddenly thought it was his position to MAKE a bazillion stupid decisions for me each day (i.e. thaw the meat on the kitchen counter vs. thaw the meat in the microwave), but he came to a point where he wouldn't do SQUAT without checking with leadership first - ON EVERYTHING.
Seriously. He became so unsure of himself and everything he did because he was always getting a ration from leadership, that he probably would have called the BC to ask if he should use Regular Unleaded or Super Unleaded when he filled up the car. THANK GOD we didn't have a cell phone back then!
I was raised to be an independent woman - my current husband will tell you that when we dated, I offered to split the tab because I was raised that men do not OWE you anything simply because you're a woman. So, this crap of being micromanaged really bothered me...
Oh yeah... they'd have tattooed Ephesians 5 inside my eyelids if they thought it would have made a difference. We got the "he doesn't know how to lead" and "you don't know how to submit" talk many, many times. He couldn't lead because he was treated like he could NEVER do ANYTHING right... and I couldn't submit because, well... a lot of it was... well... it was STOOPID.
It took me years to decompress from that. Hubby will tell you that I now no longer call him before I spend $5 on myself (althought he probably wishes I would...
I no longer write out a detailed menu for the week and shopping list.... and other such drivel that he could give a rodent's anus about. Life is too short for that crap! We even have separate hobbies - GASP! - and support each other's silly pasttimes (see the guitar thread for what I support for him - see my dog and computer threads for what he supports of mine...)
But you know what? I didn't realize how much of myself I gave up to please my first husband until several years after our separation and divorce. I also didn't realize how much of myself I gave up to be in TWI until just a couple of years ago - I've been out for 7 years. It's a robbery of who you are and what makes you YOU. It was gone - you were stripped of it and had to be this Stepford Way Wife who wore big earrings and got excited about hanging the new ministry poster on the wall for the new ministry year. whoo-hoo.
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polar bear
I think twi is totally in the fog on how men should treat woman.
At one time I was in the oil business. I sold mostly to farmers. What I noticed on my journey from farm to farm was that many farmers were single. So at one particular farm I had an opportunity to talk to a married couple and I told them of my observation concerning the single farmers. I asked them why there were so many single farmers, was it the work etc. I will never forget the answer I received from this woman, she said to me "if a man knows how to love a woman, he will never have a problem finding a wife".
The moral is, twi doesn't teach people how to love. It's all about following the system.
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Mister P-Mosh
The Way's treatment of women is one of the first things that bothered me, and caused me to eventually leave. It wasn't the only piece of their doctrine that bothered me, but it was the first one I remember disliking. I always have, and still do, believe that relationships are a partnership between two equals. I also know that as a man, my decisions are not always better.
I'm very happy that I married a beautiful, intelligent, loving woman who was never taught that she was inferior to anyone else. An added bonus is that she knows I.T. so I can even complain to her about work and she has good practical advice on that too. :-)
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Bolshevik
My wife was doing everything I told her to do.
Rivenbark and her Cabinet had a problem with that. So they hounded her for being disobedient to me.
They never confronted me.
Her Cabinet dogs presented things to me in a very obscure way.
I asked to meet with her. Wasn't gonna happen.
My wife believes they were trying to split us apart.
Rivenbark is the devil. She hates marriage.
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waysider
OK-----Here comes something that is only opinion---------- again.
I think a lot of these man/woman concepts, that have languished in TWI for so long, came not from the Bible, but from the personal upbringing and experiences of the early leaders. Remember, VPW and associates came of age during the Great Depression and as such reflected the social mores and idiosyncracies of their generation.
Somehow it got assigned some sort of Biblical basis and that was acceped as the "OFFICIAL" stance on related issues.
You really have to disregard what has been taught or perpetuated in The Way( or any other group, for that matter) and look at what the Bible( or the holy scrit that applies to your particular faith) actually says about the roles that men and women are to fulfil in a marriage.
Then, you have to try to understand that within the context of the society in which we live.
It's no longer as simple as " Me Tarzan. you Jane".
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rascal
Damn, THIS was one of my pet peeves.
WHO knew that getting married meant that God would no longer speak to you unless through your spouse and that was after the tc...etc.
It was bad enough being a woman/2nd class citizen in twi...but when you married you were 3rd class...the only thing thiong lower in the food chain was children.
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ChasUFarley
Interesting post, Bolshevic....
I never thought of this before, but when we were on staff and confronted, Hubby had been confronted several times BY HIMSELF.
He knew we were getting pulled into Br@d Th0rpe's office that morning long before I knew about it.
During the confrontation I wasn't allowed to speak - I was told to SIT and LISTEN (and that's not SIT = Speak In Tongues).
I was allowed input at the end - after it was over and by that time our whole world - everything - was shattered....
I never thought about how that came down that day until now... and that was part of the homo purge... interesting...
Bolshevik - Correct me if I'm wrong here, but I thought there was some scripture about how if someone has an issue with your wife, they're supposed to go to YOU, the head, FIRST. I remember being taught that protocol when I was TC and needed to call someone out for something - if it was a wife, I was supposed to speak with her keeper... er, I mean... Husband...
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Bolshevik
Exactly, I brought that subject of confrontation up to her Cabinet idiot about another subject. He blew it off. He was ready to kick my wife off Staff but have me stay.
Anything I wanted to say to Rivenbark I was to do IN WRITING.
Her department coordinator ran our marriage. It still gets me ENRAGED.
They are devils. The whole lot of them.
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JavaJane
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JavaJane
I would have said FARGING ICEHOLES myself, but devils works, too.
Same thing happened to my parents in the WC - it was ok for Dad to take the kids, but my Mom had to go - she was to "willfull".
BASTARDS!!!
I think my hubby really got a clue about how bad it was when he tried to talk to our coordinator (you know who, B) and was called a "Bro" and told that he really understood why he was concerned since I was kicking up such a fuss about things... But then when I got pulled aside he said that he was really sick of all the fiances, fathers, and husbands who kept sticking their noses in his business when he felt their women needed confronting.
When my man heard that one, he blew his top. How dare he call him a "brother" and then stab him in the back?
EVIL EVIL EVIL.
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Bolshevik
My wife is my business.
The ordained him. His reward for chaos in ordination.
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ChasUFarley
Good lord... didn't they ordain all the ones who caused chaos... your post made me think of at least four people right away!
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Bolshevik
There's also that other guy you and I spoke of.
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ChasUFarley
He was #2 on my list...
Appropriate, no?
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JavaJane
I think I may have struck a nasty chord with this thread...
I'm still mad. MAD MAD MAD MAD MAD!!!
How dare someone try to come between a man and his wife - pollute the beauty of a sacrament of GOD that was set up AT THE VERY BEGINNING?
AND THEN PROFESS TO BE DOING GOD'S WILL???
It must make God sick to be said to be the reason for so many marriages splitting up.
Who was usurping the head? THEY WERE!! They broke down the man's courage. They put things in place to make the wives keep their mouths shut so that they couldn't give their husbands advice. And if that didn't work, they destroyed her reputation, marking her as a Jezebel... if they had managed to castrate the husband by then, they worked on removing the woman... If he wasn't castrated, they accused him of HAVING NO BALLS (what the heck?) and kicked them both out.
And it would be better for a millstone to be tied around their neck and have them be tossed into the ocean than to do the things they did - God knows. He sees.
It's a good thing vengeance belongs to God. I know he'll do it right.
BASTARDS.
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Bolshevik
You'll have to tell me about #1 sometime.
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