Where's Chris Geer?

[Ham]

If he needs the money that bad.. I know a few Eskimos that could use some ice..

[rascal]

you left out visciously pschotic pervert :(

I understand however, that he IS held in high regard with of the *upbeat* and *positive* crowd.

Edited August 1, 2007 by rascal

[Ham]

you left out visciously pschotic pervert

Yeah, can't be perfect..

I wasn't close enough to really experience that.. thought I'd leave that description to be given by someone more qualified than me..

:)

[Ham]

What a miserable existence.. these guys think somehow they've inherited vic's "legacy", or power..

he's a pale imitation.. no matter how much like the "master" he smells..

[WordWolf]

Johnj, I can not prove Wierwille told Geer to revise the foundational class and I don't think you can prove he did not.

Given the enmity between Geer and TWI, it is reasonable to conclude that had Geer nothing to show he had this authorization, that TWI would take legal action.

It would be reasonable IF it hadn't been common knowledge that cg had wrangled rights over the pfal class from

the bot when they all agreed they killed vpw at the close of POP.

After all, as I pointed out, "piracy" is a serious crime.

Depends on the TYPE of piracy. Depending how the word is used, it may be a MORAL wrong (fleecing the innocent in a legal fashion)

or a legal crime so small the public thinks it's not a big deal

(music piracy, pirating videos).

On the other hand, it can refer to robbing ships at sea, which IS a serious crime.

(Ever hear of plans by ship-pirates to sue the music industry for diluting their trademark on piracy

by connecting teenagers with a pc with robbery on the high seas? :) )

Of course you can not claim to know why TWI allows this class to be offered, but how about a reasonable informed guess? One that reflects the relationship between Geer and TWI as well as the laws regarding piracy.

Myself, I would guess-based on the reasonable informed information-that the relationship between Geer and TWI at the time

they gave him rights over pfal was the direct cause of them granting him legal rights over pfal,

after which he was able to use pfal as he saw fit.

When it comes to "why didn't they sue when he made it again under a new name", I'm not a copyright lawyer, and

would guess that there is a murky ground there where his granted rights might grant him the rights to use the material.

Thus, there was no point suing someone when they weren't going to win.

At twi, it's currently all about the money. Follow the money.

And where did you say that Christian believers and leaders carried on this sort of sustained attack on other believers in the Bible?

Like, where do we read, "...and for years afterward Paul went out through all the land preaching against the errors of Barnabas, warning everyone about his false doctrine..."?

A) There were no copyright laws in effect at the time.

B) Barnabas wasn't violating any copyrights, whether de jure OR de facto.

And if VP didn't originate it, then aren't you trying to get Geer to ascribe authorship to the wrong person?

Why would you want him to do that?

Non-issue.

It was wrong for vpw to entirely take material originated by others, and intentionally refuse to give due legal credit

for the original sources. That's plagiarism, and copyright violation, and those are FELONIES at the amounts they

were practiced personally by vpw.

Likewise,

it was wrong for cg to entirely take material originated by others, and intentionally refuse to give due legal credit for

the original sources. That's plagiarism, and copyright violation, and those are FELONIES at the amounts they were

practiced personally by vpw.

Why wasn't cg sued? He held part of the copyright, so it was a crime, but the injured party can't sue him for

damages, since HE held the legal rights, so LEGALLY, he was the injured party.

That means that what he did was MORALLY wrong, and LEGALLY wrong, but no one could sue on behalf of

society under current laws-they'd have to sue on behalf of the ones with the LEGAL rights,

which he cleverly held.

Legally, he's still required to cite sources, but I don't know how a lawsuit could proceed to force him to comply.

So,

it was wrong for cg to take material from others and not credit them- whether that source was vpw (who took the material

from others HIMSELF) or the originals, BG Leonard, EW Bullinger, EW Kenyon, and so on.

WHICH person he stole from is secondary to the issue THAT he stole from them.

TECHNICALLY, those holding the rights to the originals- Leonard's work, Kenyon's work- CAN sue where he stole their

material. Bullinger's work is now in public domain- which does not free him from citing his sources, but would

allow him to quote to any degree he wanted. Leonard, for one, elected not to sue another Christian, which was

his choice, and his legal right- but he added a lengthy caution about plagiarism to the beginning of his books,

which shows he WAS aware. Leonard, I expect he didn't know about vpw, but so many other people plagiarized him

that vpw and cg are probably low on the list for recovering damages.

And yes, it was wrong, immoral AND illegal every time someone plagiarized Kenyon-

whether or not the material was error or truth.

If Geer was ever pressed with the charge of piracy, I imagine all he would need do is counter with the claim that the majority of material in his class was actually derived from Bullinger's "How to Enjoy the Bible" which is safely in the public domain.

Any supposed, unique contributions by Wierwille may be extremely minor by comparison. So few as to arguably fall within the perimeters of "fair use".

.....but he's still required to CITE SOURCES on those, Dan-

both for Bullinger AND for vpw, where each is supposedly the source.

[Ham]

Oh yeah.. that's a REAL sticky problem for a writer..

You have to give credit to the source you quote,

and on top of that, you have to give credit to source of the source you quote from.. if there indeed is one.

While some may lift pfal with impunity, I would suppose that the owners of the original material could pursue some kind of legal remedy from these infringers..

I could see them in front of a judge.. "it wasn't MINE... I was just holding it, for a friend.."

Edited August 2, 2007 by Mr. Hammeroni

[Ham]

So where's chris gear..

maybe he's just setting back, eating pickled pig's feet, drinking schnaps, and planning the overthrow of the world..

[Bumpy]

So where's chris gear..

maybe he's just setting back, eating pickled pig's feet, drinking schnaps, and planning the overthrow of the world..

He called me today...He's coming over for dinner & a little "teaching" of the Word! WOW!!

[Ham]

Now I'm not speaking disparagingly of the great Country of France.. but maybe somebody in the u.s. got smart enough to just scrape enough to buy the would-be mogster a ticket.. one way.

sheesh.. you're so "lucky" Bumpy..

Edited August 2, 2007 by Mr. Hammeroni

[Ham]

hmmm. Well.. how about..

maybe he's on the Pakistan Afghanistan border, patiently waiting for western civilization to crumble..

hmmm. Well, maybe..

just maybe he's in eastern Europe, busy trying to build a wall..

go back to the eighties, sitting around a campfire in northern Ohio, and the victors still could lash out a tune..

*ahem*, *cough, cough..*

*I'm building a wall*

*across the divide..*

*I'll charge first class toll...*

*for a second-rate ride, do do do do..*

[Ham]

Hey, you in the back row.. don't complain about the talent here..

leave an unattended squirrel in charge, what can you expect?

[Bumpy]

Now I'm not speaking disparagingly of the great Country of France.. but maybe somebody in the u.s. got smart enough to just scrape enough to buy the would-be mogster a ticket.. one way.

sheesh.. you're so "lucky" Bumpy..

The dinner was better than the "teaching"...I had to keep getting back to the part about "believing & receiving"

[excathedra]

The dinner was better than the "teaching"...

ohmy i guess you're not ready for the meat of the word

[Ham]

hmm. Maybe..

maybe, just MAYBE, he ended up on the menu like the guy in Fried Green Tomatos.

That'd bring a real new meaning of the meat of da word..

[Deciderator]

.....In the process of work on the Advanced Class it came to light that there was first a need to correct a large bit of the Foundational as well as Intermediate classes. Chris views the class as just that getting the job done, an extension of the original not a new class so to speak, which if one believes what he wrote was at the request of VPW. It's hard to pirate what you have been asked, or at least been approved to do. That puts to rest the claim that WIGP is PFAL piracy another error.....

Yes.

There has been at least the implication that Geer did little more than change the name of PFAL and claim it was his.

Plus, we had one chap keep asking for points of difference.

Well, I have not taken Walking In God's Power, but I am aware of a few changes that I imagine would be reflected in the class.

There has been more work on the usages of pneuma hagion and there have been developments in how some ocurrences are handled.

Also, there has been much done on the subject of "Bible Kinds of Faith" - the occurrences and usage of the word pistis.

I see these developments as not so much deciding some things in PFAL and other classes was wrong, but more in the sense of research bringing new light and thus moving the ball further downfield, if you will.

I bet everyone who got the Bible Kinds of Faith tapes can recall with a chuckle the first time you heard and saw "the

believing."

[TheInvisibleDan]

.....but he's still required to CITE SOURCES on those, Dan-

both for Bullinger AND for vpw, where each is supposedly the source.

Agreed - it would have been most honest and proper to have done so.

But then again, I suppose a wannabee mog wouldn't want to come off as being too

"scholarly" or "intellectual".

Gotta remain as vague with sources as to preserve the MOG mystique.

Edited August 3, 2007 by TheInvisibleDan

[Ham]

Not scholarly? Naw..

Maybe he's presently laboring feverishly over ancient wierwillian manuscripts, as we speak. Took all the other manuscripts to the town Gehenna, where the fire never ceases..

[Ham]

hmmm. Last siting.. he is gallantly leading his troops into battle..

May God have mercy on the French..

[Ham]

OK John J. You can have your thread back now. It is only slightly (mis)used. Maybe Paw can put it up for sale in the "used threads" section..

[Deciderator]

Agreed - it would have been most honest and proper to have done so.

But then again, I suppose a wannabee mog wouldn't want to come off as being too

"scholarly" or "intellectual".

Gotta remain as vague with sources as to preserve the MOG mystique.

Nuthin' like a lil' "MOG mystique" to blatantly open ones self up for lawsuits.

Any idea why TWI never sued Geer?

JJ is a bit shy on the question...................

[rascal]

Cause Geer got lcm to sign over the copy rights or something to the way of great brittain if I remember properly. That was when lcm was agreeing with geer about everything.

[WordWolf]

Nuthin' like a lil' "MOG mystique" to blatantly open ones self up for lawsuits.

Any idea why TWI never sued Geer?

JJ is a bit shy on the question...................

Or he might not have answered because I already did- last post, previous page.

Cause Geer got lcm to sign over the copy rights or something to the way of great brittain if I remember properly. That was when lcm was agreeing with geer about everything.

This is the short version of what I said a page back.

[Deciderator]

Cause Geer got lcm to sign over the copy rights or something to the way of great brittain if I remember properly. That was when lcm was agreeing with geer about everything.

That is a reasonable possibility.

It fits with the facts I am aware of.

It also puts a great big torpeda in the side of JohnJ's boat where he claims "piracy."

If someone gives you something, it is hardly a case of theft.

Edited August 4, 2007 by Deciderator

[WordWolf]

That is a reasonable possibility.

It fits with the facts I am aware of.

It also puts a great big torpeda in the side of JohnJ's boat where he claims "piracy."

If someone gives you something, it is hardly a case of theft.

I know you're really keen on his usage of the word "piracy"- which, apparently, is some sort of

controversial term for reasons I'm not aware of, but he's using it correctly in English.

cg has failed to cite his sources, which, as I've pointed out plenty of times, including in

this thread, is a legal requirement he is still bound by.

For him to fail to do so-and he most assuredly failed to do so- is both illegal

(even works in the public domain must be cited, if they are sources)

and unethical

(by appropriating the work of others and giving no source, he's saying

"I did this" and hiding the actual sources. This is willful deception and a number of

other things.)

The main thing he's insulated from is lawsuits, since the main purpose of a lawsuit would

be to RECOVER DAMAGES. Since he has legal rights over much of the source material

in use, nobody can sue to RECOVER DAMAGES- there are no moneys to "return".

Therefore, he can certainly be sued- at least on behalf of the public for where he

failed to cite Bullinger's public domain materials, if under no other basis.

However, lawsuits aren't cheap. They cost money, lots of money. Apparently, nobody

with a lot of money cares enough to direct a lawsuit against cg for his actual breaking

of the law- which is a felony when practiced at that level.

That having been said, do you have a more APPROPRIATE term for what Juedes described?

He was speaking of the plagiarized materials and the variety of practices and doctrines

taken without attribution from others, primarily vpw,

and about some related concepts.

I'm sure if there was a more appropriate term for what he described, John would have no

problem with adjusting his site. This, of course, presumes there IS a more appropriate

term, and not just a more euphemistic, less harsh-sounding one.

Edited August 4, 2007 by WordWolf

[Deciderator]

The gentleman is accusing Chris Geer of "piracy" - stealing - for which we have laws and a system for dealing with such crimes.

It's not stealing or "piracy" if the person gives you something freely or you have rights to it. If what you said is the case, there was no crime of "piracy."

Given the situation between Mr. Geer and TWI, it is reasonable that if Mr. Geer was making money with the intellectual property of TWI then TWI would sue or at least issue a cease-and-desist order.

A court could not only award money the classes have made, but additional damages as well if there's a case.

They have not and I have seen no reasonable explanation why.

This puts a great big torpeda in Mr. Jeudes boat, in my view.

As for the rest, it is not up to me to coin phrases or expressions for someone elses posts.

Edited August 4, 2007 by Deciderator