At first, it was hard work for me - I hadn't worked in a kitchen in years. I had a desk job here in Tulsa so it took a little time to adjust. There was a lot a free time as well. No, there really wasn't a strict regimen. Meals were served at regular times. There was a lot of time to do as you pleased. The rules and regs from The Way were not there. Chris was very hands off.
Really, I expected to be given a whole regimen when I got there - basically I could complete my tasks in the Kitchen and do what I wanted. My wife and I use to go to the gym after dinner and dance the hours away. It was fun.
When classes were run there was extra work. But there was never any overburdensome work placed on anyone as far as I could see. Again for me, there was a lot of free time. For the regular staff it seemed more like a regular 8-5 job.
The doctrine that I had heard from The Way was changed dramatically. I speculate that he grew very much over the years. Still serious about God's Word though. There wasn't a bunch of bondage or anything like that. I speculate again that after the split occurred between The Way and The Way in Great Britain, Chris began to grow very much. A lot of grace and mercy was there at Gartmore House.
We were more like a family. Helping each other out. Everyone seemed well taken care of. It was like nothing that I had seen at The Way.
As I read Greg Hill's description of Chris Geer, I feel my dinner coming back up my throat...His posts are a testamony of GreaseSpot's tolerance of free speech and free thought...if we let THIS guy post what he's posting...then anybody can say just about anything.
Mr Hill...I honestly feel sorry for you. Chris Geer has been a meanspirited lowlife for his entire adult life...He knows God in the same way that I know Derek Jeter...in other words...he doesn't...he's a fake and a conman, just like his "father in the word" VP. Wormville
...Most of the twi "leaders" were puffed up jerks who enjoyed stroking their own egos...Geer, on the other hand, was a dangerous man...his self righteousness and false humility were astounding...From the things you have said about him, I would highly suggest that you seek professional councilling ASAP...
As I read Greg Hill's description of Chris Geer, I feel my dinner coming back up my throat...His posts are a testamony of GreaseSpot's tolerance of free speech and free thought...if we let THIS guy post what he's posting...then anybody can say just about anything.
In all honesty, Groucho, what he's posting not *THAT* bad.
He's not calling anyone with experiences contrary to his own "liars" or going after
them for disagreeing with him. He's avoiding posting in an abusive manner.
(From what I've seen.) So I've seen worse here, and can name worse posters
in the past who did those things.
I think the free speech here is emphasized when one allows someone with his
limited experiences the right to post about them, without FORCING him
to conform. He can change on his own schedule, or not at all, on his own schedule.
Mr Hill...I honestly feel sorry for you. Chris Geer has been a meanspirited lowlife for his entire adult life...He knows God in the same way that I know Derek Jeter...in other words...he doesn't...he's a fake and a conman, just like his "father in the word" VP.
Wormville
He can only go by what he knows. What he knows PRIMARILY is what he saw.
I saw the same things, and it took me a while to examine the experiences of others
and properly contextualize my experiences in light of a WHOLE life,
and not just the window into it I had. That doesn't happen overnight.
...Most of the twi "leaders" were puffed up jerks who enjoyed stroking their own egos...Geer, on the other hand, was a dangerous man...his self righteousness and false humility were astounding...From the things you have said about him, I would highly suggest that you seek professional councilling ASAP...
I'd just suggest he dig deeper.
He saw cg put on the full act of humility and spiritual maturity.
So did I-and I was actively looking for spiritual mistakes at the time.
I didn't see what he wasn't showing me, either.
Then again, I didn't get a "face-melting session" either.
I don't think he's unsound-just limited in his exposure.
Perhaps that will change for him-it certainly did for you and me...
Hill, can you clarify what you mean by "negative filters"?
I'm taking that to mean a predetermined view. A filter that what's seen is seen through. I'm sure I have some, can't speak for you or anyone else but most people do I think.
I'd like to think mine collect the light coming in and give me a clearer view of what I'm seeing. That would be ideal anyway. Experience forms a filter. Although experience isn't always reliable it can form the basis for observing something as it is, as it occurs naturally and without intervention or interference.
F'instance, your opinions are based on a collection of experiences that lead you to view Geer that way you do. Compared against the standards you've chosen, you've come up with an evaluation of what you've experienced and observed first hand. So you write they were good.
Still they're what you observed and experienced, so they account for the total of what you have to personally work with. They're not everything about the subject that can be known, they're what you've known for a period of - was it 2 years?
Using you as an example if you don't mind, we could now say we have some information that was collected by personal experience and observation that can be included with other information. We know there has to be more. The years before, after as well as other information that could be collected by others during the same time periods.
For your purposes, what you have may be enough for what you need or as far as you're inclined to look for. But if you were working with any other material you might want more.
Past performance is a critical ingredient when looking at the current state of a person I think. I know that the bible teaches that we are "new" in Christ, forgiven, in grace through Christ, those things, yes.
Still, everything that we are "right now" is the net result of everything we've been up till now. My understanding of what the bible teaches in terms of God's grace and forgiveness for sin doesn't mean that it changes the quality of life that has come prior to it. It does in terms of how God will evaluate it, but it doesn't change the actual texture of it, the events, actions, substance of our lives.
To my mind the popular attitude of "living in the now" or in the "moment" where the past and future are ignored isn't really possible. Living in the "now" is really living in the past, as I am exactly what I've done and been up to this point. Look in a mirror as a "new man" or woman in Christ and we see what God has MADE us.What Christ has DONE. Past tense. "Saved", now, the result of the past. I could be cursing God though, at this moment. Would that be the intended result of God's goodness? No.
Living in the moment, at it's best, would be a forward moving action, I think. A brief intersection in awareness where a person looks to what they're going to "Be". In a phrase, the future has a past, and it's right...now.
To me that makes what I do now very important. It's just common sense really, but I think common sense gets missed sometimes when people try to find their way through bible teachings on the new life in Christ and being a Christian. We read the past is "dead", yet in this life it is far from dead, it's what makes us who we are now. What we choose to do next is where there's life, since we can't go back and relive the past. It would be nice if we could, have a sort of "undo" feature, but we dang! we really don't.
So if the question is "where's Christ Geer NOW", I'd answer generally, I have no idea. We know who Geer IS, he's the sum total of his past. Who he is becoming - ? Dunno. Some current information to include with what's know from the past would go a long way towards telling that. Really, though, I have my own fish to fry and I struggle with that. Butt Socks, etc. There's a LOT coming up.
Personally, when I was at Camp Gunnison with 47 other Tenth Corps in the late winter, spring, and summer of 1980, Chris Geer was very kind and thoughtful. We worked hard, played hard, and when the whole bunch of got sick from contaminated water (as did the whole town of Gunnison), CG was very concerned and outright "mothered us" until we all were better. Really, he was pretty cool to we who were there with him.
One of the fun things we did was that Chris read to us the journal of a young man who had moved from the east coast and worked as a mining engineer at Ruby Camp where the Forest Queen Mine was located. A silver mine. We'd all get together in the top floor of the Barn at night and he'd just read to us. It was very fine. Sometimes, one of us would read, but mostly Chris did the reading. It was kind of like; "Wow, people used to do this for entertainment, and this is darn right entertaining and very "homey". Times I won't forget. We dug it.
I know that was not the "whole of the man", but it was a "part of the man..."
First off Welcome Gregory,thanks for pinch hitting for me while I was away last week hard at work. It's been a busy week with work and additionally I had a board meeting to chair for the dog park, so I have not had much more than a chance to look in. By the way last I knew. Renate, Cathy and Helen former Gartmore staffers were employed by Word Promotions in the Scotland office still.
Well this thread has taken a few turns since I was here last so I'll say to start I'll abstain from commentary on Chris Geer's personal life as it is not relevant to the conversation that being the WIGP class. I try to refrain unlike some posters here from making comments regarding someone when I have no accurate information to support the remark.
When I responded to David’s post of Johns site link I made the following comment:
"While not a bad review overall, in fairness I would point out that while Dr Juedes is entitled to his opinion he does present some erroneous facts and implications in his assessment." I still stand by that assessment. I fully expected a response from John and he did not fail me. My intent at that point was to dialog with him via the message system and he could make any changes to his article that he saw fit. Due to my slow response time he opened the topic up for discussion here so I will respond in kind here as well. First as WordWolf mentioned, and he was correct, John has offered to correct any incorrect information on the site. I'll take him at his word on that. As I stated I do believe that overall the review was not bad work or inaccurate as a whole. At least more so, than not, I do maintain that some of the facts and implications were however not correct. . .
The first being
Christopher Geer was more directly responsible for splintering The Way International than any one person. While many TWI leaders chafed under the inept hand of TWI's new young president, L. Craig Martindale, Geer forced the splintering by accusing TWI trustees of severe error and staging a coup.
A review of the letters tapes and other correspondence over the years from Chris will quickly show that his intention was not to form a coup rather to affect change within the trustees of the Way International. He was consistent in his support and his dissatisfaction with those that proposed any sort of move in that direction, the data will stand on its own. Absent is any evidence to support Johns claim. There is ample to the contrary. And had he wanted to stage a coup it could have been easily done at Corps week 1986 while the trustees were lost in fog land (blubbering their eyes out) about on the main stage asking for forgiveness, he could have walked in to any position he wanted at that point, He consistently supported them for several years.
In fact that is/was a complaint with many exwayfers that he would not start some political overthrow of the trustees as they thought he should. Failure to address the problems at hand in the end were the cause for any splintering, and any blame for that can be laid squarely at the feet of the great accuser he is behind the division in the one body. He is most responsible, beyond that there are plenty of other men in line ahead of Chris. John gives these men way too much credit.
Now as to:
Quote WordWolf
However,
the claim before you walked in was how the SUBJECTS of WIGP were all taken from PFAL-
how WIGP was DERIVATIVE of PFAL and owes its existence and its syllabus to PFAL
WD challenged this claim, and said the SUBJECTS were different.
I asked him to give an example so we could evaluate that and come to our own conclusion, supporting HIS claim.
Actually the subject was:
Every one of Geer's topics in WIGP comes from PFAL," and other inaccuracies in John’s article.
I disputed that.
John then corrected his statement to
Every chapter topic in WIGP comes from PFAL
I responded that it was not the same thing, It is not. There are many topics in the class that are not chapter headings I think the word he was searching for there is Many, that would be a factually accurate description.
American Heritage Dictionary - Cite This Source
top•ic (tŏp'ĭk) Pronunciation Key
n.
1. The subject of a speech, essay, thesis, or discourse.
2. A subject of discussion or conversation.
3. A subdivision of a theme, thesis, or outline. See Synonyms at subject.
4. Linguistics A word or phrase in a sentence, usually providing information from previous discourse or shared knowledge, that the rest of the sentence elaborates or comments on. Also called theme.
By definition one could have a topic (the subject of a speech, essay, thesis or discourse.) and not have it be a chapter topic from the book. Thus Every one of his topics covered was not covered in PFAL
Many or Most that would be a factually accurate description. WIGP was always promoted as an expansion of PFAL no piracy there it is an extension.
If you remember from POP the following
"I think my greatest regret is the Advanced Class. I never did a good job of teaching it on film. Now it is up to one of you to get it done; I won't be here to do it. page 39
In the process of work on the Advanced Class it came to light that there was first a need to correct a large bit of the Foundational as well as Intermediate classes. Chris views the class as just that getting the job done, an extension of the original not a new class so to speak, which if one believes what he wrote was at the request of VPW. It's hard to pirate what you have been asked, or at least been approved to do. That puts to rest the claim that WIGP is PFAL piracy another error.
Gregory has already handled some of the other errors in the article so I won’t belabor the points. While at first glance I can see why some would think it to be the same but having sat through it is apparent that much is not the same. And certainly not every topic comes from PFAL although much does. One such topic which is a chapter topic as well is Rights, Privileges and Abilities of the Sons of God. There is not companion chapter in PFAL while there was a chapter - Knowing your Sonship rights, absent were the topics Abilities and Privileges. Additionally while still on the subject of Sonship rights ,so that would qualify as a duplicate subject as per Johns point of view an addition was made as not five as we had previously learned but reflected into the class was the fact that there were more as many pointed out over the years prior. The result was five (as in main Categories) but not necessarily limited to five, as it's clear from scripture that there are more. Christian Riches Now does also not appear in PFAL titles anywhere if you use John’s second definition of what he meant Chapter topics. I understand Johns point; there is much that is the same I'd fall short of saying EVERY though. I don't believe that is an accurate statement. If one would like a better explanation from the horse’s mouth so to speak I would refer you to GWT (Gartmore Weekly Tape) #199 there is a considerable explanation of the class on the tape by Chris as to why he did it and some of the content.
It's obvious that Geer took all Wierwille's teachings at face value and didn't assess them thoroughly
Wrong! the whole reason that there was a WIGP Class to begin with was because he did assess his teachings and found that there were problems with them. And since that time there has been ongoing work to correct them especially in the field of believing.
Now:
Quote WordWolf
B) Juedes' site's materials were not written last week, nor are they updated daily
with a continuous news feed.
The articles were written with the perspective of the time they were written,
and reflect that-
or reflect the perspective of their most recent update, whenever that was.
If the answers at ONE TIME are accurately recorded, and events change,
the non-changing of an article is not proof of an agenda, it's proof the
article needs updating.
Agreed but these events have not changed and they were never at one time correct,and in this day and age a website is a easy thing to update if one was interested in maintaining truth in their words.
That becomes more the case when it's based on a subject that keeps a low profile.
One need not presuppose a conspiracy where scarcity of news is present.
You don't presuppose a conspiracy and agenda about cg lacking an online presence
of any kind do you? Please be even-handed and fair when making accusations.
Actually I do! having read his rather lengthy paper on A Biblical Perspective on Computers, Electronic Learning and Cyber - Realities I do think Chris has a definite agenda and I was being quite fair in my assessment, Although I don't necessarily support all of his viewsbut they are his and he has a right to them.
Never say Never but I would not hold your breath waiting for a website.
If you find something that needs correcting, you can just say
"I think this needs correcting."
As it is, I think that sentence DOES need correcting, and the words "to his followers"
is better left off no matter how the sentence will read with an adjustment.
I'm making a wild guess here, but I suspect Juedes appreciates being able to correct
his articles to make them more accurate, and thus appreciates the notice.
(Whether or not he appreciates the lecture tacked-on to it.)
Agreed as I said earlier he confirmed the same to me I'll accept that, time will tell if it holds true. My intent was to do just that via the IM system but that intent has now changed since his invitation to discuss it in open format.
I'm not the only GreaseSpotter to question his writings as evident from his own site he has had some dialog with Research Geek on at least one of John’s articles. I just have to wonder why someone that was in comparison with most of us exway people (involved with the Way for less than a New York minute) so to speak has such an interest in the Way. Yeah I read the site so many have been so hurt. Like that never happened anywhere else why only the Way? What about the Moonies, JW’s. Krishna’s ,Catholics, or even his own denomination? No, not a peep there, only on the Way! I guess he missed that hurt or if he did come across any it did not inspire him to pick up a pen and write even a few words. If the concern is so many hurt I wager that all combined there is far more total among those groups and all the others than the Way. So why focus on only the Way? It is no secret at least to me that John’s denomination was a major force behind the movement against the Way for many years, as well as the deprogramming movement.
On a personal level in our area we had many run ins with Lutheran church members simply because we rented a house by one of their churches. We ended up having several police inspections at our home due to them. As well as a investigation by the KBI which turned up nothing, Zero much to their dismay. There were many meetings concerning the way at the church and I believe that John is still continuing in that line of work. Yes I do believe that his interest is driven by his denomination and their dislike for The Way. I do question why he fails to look at the hurt caused by his own church and their doctrines like worship of a three headed God. And yes I do look for agendas when considering a plethora of articles with error. Some people want to see negatives so they accept anything at face value I prefer truth. Which could be pro or con, but at least truth? Nope it is no secret that his denomination has a vendetta against The Way and apparently now any of its offshoots (as some would term them.) One would be less than wise not to filter any propaganda through a truth filter before taking it at face value.
I am not in contact with Chris G but this is his: P.O. box 116 South Casco ME 04077
If I may Ariel the address you posted above which I also posted way back on page 2 is the address for Word Promotions Inc. It is not his address just for the record.
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Gregory A. Hill
Coolchef,
No it was more like a family there. I don't think any of those women would have tolerated what you say.
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Gregory A. Hill
Socks,
At first, it was hard work for me - I hadn't worked in a kitchen in years. I had a desk job here in Tulsa so it took a little time to adjust. There was a lot a free time as well. No, there really wasn't a strict regimen. Meals were served at regular times. There was a lot of time to do as you pleased. The rules and regs from The Way were not there. Chris was very hands off.
Really, I expected to be given a whole regimen when I got there - basically I could complete my tasks in the Kitchen and do what I wanted. My wife and I use to go to the gym after dinner and dance the hours away. It was fun.
When classes were run there was extra work. But there was never any overburdensome work placed on anyone as far as I could see. Again for me, there was a lot of free time. For the regular staff it seemed more like a regular 8-5 job.
The doctrine that I had heard from The Way was changed dramatically. I speculate that he grew very much over the years. Still serious about God's Word though. There wasn't a bunch of bondage or anything like that. I speculate again that after the split occurred between The Way and The Way in Great Britain, Chris began to grow very much. A lot of grace and mercy was there at Gartmore House.
We were more like a family. Helping each other out. Everyone seemed well taken care of. It was like nothing that I had seen at The Way.
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Danny
Greg
Old Cris was a replacement for another driver that ran off with one of the flock.
He wasn't vics first choice.
oh how wonderful
a servant of the Lord he is. Which Lord.
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Danny
Greg
I all seriousness I am very thankful
for Chis. How he destroyed twi.
Started the implosion.
I was the best wakening for me.
Thank God
Not Chris.
And I did know him on a personal level.
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GrouchoMarxJr
As I read Greg Hill's description of Chris Geer, I feel my dinner coming back up my throat...His posts are a testamony of GreaseSpot's tolerance of free speech and free thought...if we let THIS guy post what he's posting...then anybody can say just about anything.
Mr Hill...I honestly feel sorry for you. Chris Geer has been a meanspirited lowlife for his entire adult life...He knows God in the same way that I know Derek Jeter...in other words...he doesn't...he's a fake and a conman, just like his "father in the word" VP. Wormville
...Most of the twi "leaders" were puffed up jerks who enjoyed stroking their own egos...Geer, on the other hand, was a dangerous man...his self righteousness and false humility were astounding...From the things you have said about him, I would highly suggest that you seek professional councilling ASAP...
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WordWolf
In all honesty, Groucho, what he's posting not *THAT* bad.
He's not calling anyone with experiences contrary to his own "liars" or going after
them for disagreeing with him. He's avoiding posting in an abusive manner.
(From what I've seen.) So I've seen worse here, and can name worse posters
in the past who did those things.
I think the free speech here is emphasized when one allows someone with his
limited experiences the right to post about them, without FORCING him
to conform. He can change on his own schedule, or not at all, on his own schedule.
He can only go by what he knows. What he knows PRIMARILY is what he saw.I saw the same things, and it took me a while to examine the experiences of others
and properly contextualize my experiences in light of a WHOLE life,
and not just the window into it I had. That doesn't happen overnight.
I'd just suggest he dig deeper.
He saw cg put on the full act of humility and spiritual maturity.
So did I-and I was actively looking for spiritual mistakes at the time.
I didn't see what he wasn't showing me, either.
Then again, I didn't get a "face-melting session" either.
I don't think he's unsound-just limited in his exposure.
Perhaps that will change for him-it certainly did for you and me...
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socks
Hill, can you clarify what you mean by "negative filters"?
I'm taking that to mean a predetermined view. A filter that what's seen is seen through. I'm sure I have some, can't speak for you or anyone else but most people do I think.
I'd like to think mine collect the light coming in and give me a clearer view of what I'm seeing. That would be ideal anyway. Experience forms a filter. Although experience isn't always reliable it can form the basis for observing something as it is, as it occurs naturally and without intervention or interference.
F'instance, your opinions are based on a collection of experiences that lead you to view Geer that way you do. Compared against the standards you've chosen, you've come up with an evaluation of what you've experienced and observed first hand. So you write they were good.
Still they're what you observed and experienced, so they account for the total of what you have to personally work with. They're not everything about the subject that can be known, they're what you've known for a period of - was it 2 years?
Using you as an example if you don't mind, we could now say we have some information that was collected by personal experience and observation that can be included with other information. We know there has to be more. The years before, after as well as other information that could be collected by others during the same time periods.
For your purposes, what you have may be enough for what you need or as far as you're inclined to look for. But if you were working with any other material you might want more.
Past performance is a critical ingredient when looking at the current state of a person I think. I know that the bible teaches that we are "new" in Christ, forgiven, in grace through Christ, those things, yes.
Still, everything that we are "right now" is the net result of everything we've been up till now. My understanding of what the bible teaches in terms of God's grace and forgiveness for sin doesn't mean that it changes the quality of life that has come prior to it. It does in terms of how God will evaluate it, but it doesn't change the actual texture of it, the events, actions, substance of our lives.
To my mind the popular attitude of "living in the now" or in the "moment" where the past and future are ignored isn't really possible. Living in the "now" is really living in the past, as I am exactly what I've done and been up to this point. Look in a mirror as a "new man" or woman in Christ and we see what God has MADE us.What Christ has DONE. Past tense. "Saved", now, the result of the past. I could be cursing God though, at this moment. Would that be the intended result of God's goodness? No.
Living in the moment, at it's best, would be a forward moving action, I think. A brief intersection in awareness where a person looks to what they're going to "Be". In a phrase, the future has a past, and it's right...now.
To me that makes what I do now very important. It's just common sense really, but I think common sense gets missed sometimes when people try to find their way through bible teachings on the new life in Christ and being a Christian. We read the past is "dead", yet in this life it is far from dead, it's what makes us who we are now. What we choose to do next is where there's life, since we can't go back and relive the past. It would be nice if we could, have a sort of "undo" feature, but we dang! we really don't.
So if the question is "where's Christ Geer NOW", I'd answer generally, I have no idea. We know who Geer IS, he's the sum total of his past. Who he is becoming - ? Dunno. Some current information to include with what's know from the past would go a long way towards telling that. Really, though, I have my own fish to fry and I struggle with that. Butt Socks, etc. There's a LOT coming up.
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now I see
Danny, are you refering here to the driver who was also the wife beater? Another secret TWI innie behavior.
Also, do we have any eye witnesses/testimonies here to Geer's involvment in the secret innie activities?
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excathedra
yes
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TheHighWay
So when did you see Sock's butt? Butt sock? Butt in a butt sock?
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J0nny Ling0
Personally, when I was at Camp Gunnison with 47 other Tenth Corps in the late winter, spring, and summer of 1980, Chris Geer was very kind and thoughtful. We worked hard, played hard, and when the whole bunch of got sick from contaminated water (as did the whole town of Gunnison), CG was very concerned and outright "mothered us" until we all were better. Really, he was pretty cool to we who were there with him.
One of the fun things we did was that Chris read to us the journal of a young man who had moved from the east coast and worked as a mining engineer at Ruby Camp where the Forest Queen Mine was located. A silver mine. We'd all get together in the top floor of the Barn at night and he'd just read to us. It was very fine. Sometimes, one of us would read, but mostly Chris did the reading. It was kind of like; "Wow, people used to do this for entertainment, and this is darn right entertaining and very "homey". Times I won't forget. We dug it.
I know that was not the "whole of the man", but it was a "part of the man..."
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now I see
Hi Exie! Ok, I trust your testimony, did he also engage in these activities himself? :( Yuck!
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Ariel
I am not in contact with Chris G but this is his: P.O. box 116 South Casco ME 04077
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Ham
Interesting.. "PFAL piracy" is the first page on a Google search for "Chris Geer"..
then pages upon pages about the pop lunacy.
NO webpage.. no information..
maybe he really did move into an abandoned missle silo..
I didn't know they had them in Maine..
gotta be a pretty miserable existence, having to isolate oneself from the world and all..
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excathedra
but now i see ~
inviter
condoner
partaker
destroyer
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Ham
Yeah. But the only thing I can't understand, is why.
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excathedra
ours is not to reason why, ours is but to do or die
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Ham
In a sense.. I feel like some of them "did", some of us "died"..
:)
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excathedra
dear gregory hill
he is a master of deceit
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Ham
He learned from his "father" quite well..
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WhiteDove
First off Welcome Gregory,thanks for pinch hitting for me while I was away last week hard at work. It's been a busy week with work and additionally I had a board meeting to chair for the dog park, so I have not had much more than a chance to look in. By the way last I knew. Renate, Cathy and Helen former Gartmore staffers were employed by Word Promotions in the Scotland office still.
Well this thread has taken a few turns since I was here last so I'll say to start I'll abstain from commentary on Chris Geer's personal life as it is not relevant to the conversation that being the WIGP class. I try to refrain unlike some posters here from making comments regarding someone when I have no accurate information to support the remark.
When I responded to David’s post of Johns site link I made the following comment:
"While not a bad review overall, in fairness I would point out that while Dr Juedes is entitled to his opinion he does present some erroneous facts and implications in his assessment." I still stand by that assessment. I fully expected a response from John and he did not fail me. My intent at that point was to dialog with him via the message system and he could make any changes to his article that he saw fit. Due to my slow response time he opened the topic up for discussion here so I will respond in kind here as well. First as WordWolf mentioned, and he was correct, John has offered to correct any incorrect information on the site. I'll take him at his word on that. As I stated I do believe that overall the review was not bad work or inaccurate as a whole. At least more so, than not, I do maintain that some of the facts and implications were however not correct. . .
The first being
Christopher Geer was more directly responsible for splintering The Way International than any one person. While many TWI leaders chafed under the inept hand of TWI's new young president, L. Craig Martindale, Geer forced the splintering by accusing TWI trustees of severe error and staging a coup.
A review of the letters tapes and other correspondence over the years from Chris will quickly show that his intention was not to form a coup rather to affect change within the trustees of the Way International. He was consistent in his support and his dissatisfaction with those that proposed any sort of move in that direction, the data will stand on its own. Absent is any evidence to support Johns claim. There is ample to the contrary. And had he wanted to stage a coup it could have been easily done at Corps week 1986 while the trustees were lost in fog land (blubbering their eyes out) about on the main stage asking for forgiveness, he could have walked in to any position he wanted at that point, He consistently supported them for several years.
In fact that is/was a complaint with many exwayfers that he would not start some political overthrow of the trustees as they thought he should. Failure to address the problems at hand in the end were the cause for any splintering, and any blame for that can be laid squarely at the feet of the great accuser he is behind the division in the one body. He is most responsible, beyond that there are plenty of other men in line ahead of Chris. John gives these men way too much credit.
Now as to:
Actually the subject was:Every one of Geer's topics in WIGP comes from PFAL," and other inaccuracies in John’s article.
I disputed that.
John then corrected his statement to
Every chapter topic in WIGP comes from PFAL
I responded that it was not the same thing, It is not. There are many topics in the class that are not chapter headings I think the word he was searching for there is Many, that would be a factually accurate description.
American Heritage Dictionary - Cite This Source
top•ic (tŏp'ĭk) Pronunciation Key
n.
1. The subject of a speech, essay, thesis, or discourse.
2. A subject of discussion or conversation.
3. A subdivision of a theme, thesis, or outline. See Synonyms at subject.
4. Linguistics A word or phrase in a sentence, usually providing information from previous discourse or shared knowledge, that the rest of the sentence elaborates or comments on. Also called theme.
By definition one could have a topic (the subject of a speech, essay, thesis or discourse.) and not have it be a chapter topic from the book. Thus Every one of his topics covered was not covered in PFAL
Many or Most that would be a factually accurate description. WIGP was always promoted as an expansion of PFAL no piracy there it is an extension.
If you remember from POP the following
"I think my greatest regret is the Advanced Class. I never did a good job of teaching it on film. Now it is up to one of you to get it done; I won't be here to do it. page 39
In the process of work on the Advanced Class it came to light that there was first a need to correct a large bit of the Foundational as well as Intermediate classes. Chris views the class as just that getting the job done, an extension of the original not a new class so to speak, which if one believes what he wrote was at the request of VPW. It's hard to pirate what you have been asked, or at least been approved to do. That puts to rest the claim that WIGP is PFAL piracy another error.
Gregory has already handled some of the other errors in the article so I won’t belabor the points. While at first glance I can see why some would think it to be the same but having sat through it is apparent that much is not the same. And certainly not every topic comes from PFAL although much does. One such topic which is a chapter topic as well is Rights, Privileges and Abilities of the Sons of God. There is not companion chapter in PFAL while there was a chapter - Knowing your Sonship rights, absent were the topics Abilities and Privileges. Additionally while still on the subject of Sonship rights ,so that would qualify as a duplicate subject as per Johns point of view an addition was made as not five as we had previously learned but reflected into the class was the fact that there were more as many pointed out over the years prior. The result was five (as in main Categories) but not necessarily limited to five, as it's clear from scripture that there are more. Christian Riches Now does also not appear in PFAL titles anywhere if you use John’s second definition of what he meant Chapter topics. I understand Johns point; there is much that is the same I'd fall short of saying EVERY though. I don't believe that is an accurate statement. If one would like a better explanation from the horse’s mouth so to speak I would refer you to GWT (Gartmore Weekly Tape) #199 there is a considerable explanation of the class on the tape by Chris as to why he did it and some of the content.
Wrong! the whole reason that there was a WIGP Class to begin with was because he did assess his teachings and found that there were problems with them. And since that time there has been ongoing work to correct them especially in the field of believing.
Now:
Agreed but these events have not changed and they were never at one time correct,and in this day and age a website is a easy thing to update if one was interested in maintaining truth in their words.Actually I do! having read his rather lengthy paper on A Biblical Perspective on Computers, Electronic Learning and Cyber - Realities I do think Chris has a definite agenda and I was being quite fair in my assessment, Although I don't necessarily support all of his viewsbut they are his and he has a right to them.
Never say Never but I would not hold your breath waiting for a website.
Agreed as I said earlier he confirmed the same to me I'll accept that, time will tell if it holds true. My intent was to do just that via the IM system but that intent has now changed since his invitation to discuss it in open format.
I'm not the only GreaseSpotter to question his writings as evident from his own site he has had some dialog with Research Geek on at least one of John’s articles. I just have to wonder why someone that was in comparison with most of us exway people (involved with the Way for less than a New York minute) so to speak has such an interest in the Way. Yeah I read the site so many have been so hurt. Like that never happened anywhere else why only the Way? What about the Moonies, JW’s. Krishna’s ,Catholics, or even his own denomination? No, not a peep there, only on the Way! I guess he missed that hurt or if he did come across any it did not inspire him to pick up a pen and write even a few words. If the concern is so many hurt I wager that all combined there is far more total among those groups and all the others than the Way. So why focus on only the Way? It is no secret at least to me that John’s denomination was a major force behind the movement against the Way for many years, as well as the deprogramming movement.
On a personal level in our area we had many run ins with Lutheran church members simply because we rented a house by one of their churches. We ended up having several police inspections at our home due to them. As well as a investigation by the KBI which turned up nothing, Zero much to their dismay. There were many meetings concerning the way at the church and I believe that John is still continuing in that line of work. Yes I do believe that his interest is driven by his denomination and their dislike for The Way. I do question why he fails to look at the hurt caused by his own church and their doctrines like worship of a three headed God. And yes I do look for agendas when considering a plethora of articles with error. Some people want to see negatives so they accept anything at face value I prefer truth. Which could be pro or con, but at least truth? Nope it is no secret that his denomination has a vendetta against The Way and apparently now any of its offshoots (as some would term them.) One would be less than wise not to filter any propaganda through a truth filter before taking it at face value.
* typo edit*
Edited by WhiteDoveLink to comment
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socks
He's all gone now...
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WhiteDove
Like Arnold He'll Be Back........
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WhiteDove
If I may Ariel the address you posted above which I also posted way back on page 2 is the address for Word Promotions Inc. It is not his address just for the record.
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