Here's an interesting quote from one of Sunesis' links:
Another New Testament verse may have bearing on Genesis 6. In I Corinthians 11:10, Paul instructs that a woman should cover her head as a sign of subjection to her husband, and also "because of the angels." This observation has intrigued commentators through the years. Why this sudden reference to angels? Could it be a reference to what happened in Genesis 6 where angels succumbed to the inducements and physical charm of the women of Earth? Obviously, Paul believed that an uncovered woman was a temptation even to angels. William Barclay mentions an old rabbinic tradition which alleges that it was the beauty of the women's long hair that attracted and tempted the angels in Genesis. (6)
In Corinthians Paul talks about it being a shame for a woman to have her head uncovered. The article I was reading put forth the notion that the Jewish people at one time believed that it was the beauty of a woman's hair that so attracted the angels who eventually copulated with them and gave birth to the Nephilim.
So, if that is what Paul was taught, if that is what he believed - that a woman's hair was so beautiful it could seduce angels - then it would make sense that he would believe a modest woman would keep her hair covered. It takes a sentence in a verse that seems totally out of place, and suddenly makes sense of it.
Sunesis,
If I am reading right, then theoretically these nephilim are still alive and walking the earth today, no? Where are they? Who are they?
In Corinthians Paul talks about it being a shame for a woman to have her head uncovered.
Why is it that whenever someone quotes this verse they overlook the verse following the whole passage that states "But if any man seem to be contentious, we have no such custom, neither the churches of God." Seems to me that Paul is saying -- If you're going to argue over the length of a woman's hair or over her head being covered then know this -- It's no longer applicable in this present time.
Larry, I wasn't forgetting or leaving it out, per se, I was simply offering an explanation for how it all came about and why Paul might have mentioned it.
And I am not entirely certain that is what he is referring to in the next sentence anyway - because he seems to jump and then jump back again.
Larry, I wasn't forgetting or leaving it out, per se, I was simply offering an explanation for how it all came about and why Paul might have mentioned it.
Oh. Ok.
And I am not entirely certain that is what he is referring to in the next sentence anyway - because he seems to jump and then jump back again.
That whole section is a head scratcher (no pun intended). It seems to me that he's using that custom to make a broader point (remembering that the Corinthians were a mess when it came to customs) -- and that being -- "You guys focus on such trivial things when what really matters is that God is the head of us all. Why can't you all get along? Your contentions are more shameful than a woman not covering her head."
Well, I don't believe it's about a haircut, that's for sure.
It is about following Christ as stated at the beginning of the chapter.
I don't think it has anything to do with a womans physical hair attracting 'angels'.
Especially in a bad sense.
I don't think it's jumping around, covering any physical details, but spiritual realities.
Corinthians is written to admonish the carnal fleshly to think more spiritually.
I would think he is not talking about physical appearance.
But rather the realities of what we are made of and what we can do with 'it'.
And by the way we are angels, invisible as the spirit.
What we see physically is not who we are.
Who we are cannot be seen.
It is only by fruit, manifestations and more that the effects of who we are are seen.
The angels or mighty men or Sons of God spoken of in the story of the flood are just like us.
There will be no more wide spread flood as in the days of Noah.
It happens on an individual basis.
I also believe that the flood was good for all.
Even the ones that 'perished' lived.
The windows of Heaven were opened not just Hell.
Hell is part of Heaven.
It is the consuming fire within.
Today it happens on an individual case or person as the Lord wills.
Matthew
32Now learn a parable of the fig tree; When his branch is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves, ye know that summer is nigh: 33So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors. 34Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled. 35Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away. 36But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only. 37But as the days of Noe were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. 38For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark, 39And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. 40Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left. 41Two women shall be grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken, and the other left. 42Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come. 43But know this, that if the goodman of the house had known in what watch the thief would come, he would have watched, and would not have suffered his house to be broken up. 44Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh.
Luke
22And he said unto the disciples, The days will come, when ye shall desire to see one of the days of the Son of man, and ye shall not see it. 23And they shall say to you, See here; or, see there: go not after them, nor follow them. 24For as the lightning, that lighteneth out of the one part under heaven, shineth unto the other part under heaven; so shall also the Son of man be in his day. 25But first must he suffer many things, and be rejected of this generation. 26And as it was in the days of Noe, so shall it be also in the days of the Son of man. 27They did eat, they drank, they married wives, they were given in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark, and the flood came, and destroyed them all. 28Likewise also as it was in the days of Lot; they did eat, they drank, they bought, they sold, they planted, they builded; 29But the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all. 30Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed. 31In that day, he which shall be upon the housetop, and his stuff in the house, let him not come down to take it away: and he that is in the field, let him likewise not return back. 32Remember Lot’s wife. 33Whosoever shall seek to save his life shall lose it; and whosoever shall lose his life shall preserve it. 34I tell you, in that night there shall be two men in one bed; the one shall be taken, and the other shall be left. 35Two women shall be grinding together; the one shall be taken, and the other left. 36Two men shall be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left. 37And they answered and said unto him, Where, Lord? And he said unto them, Wheresoever the body is, thither will the eagles be gathered together.
-------------------
This coming is from within where God resides as well as in the air that we breath and surrounds every soul.
People will not be disappearing before our eyes. These things will happen within themselves.
--------------------
We are to be followers of Christ, whether it's called Christ or not, makes no difference. It's what we are hearing and doing. Regardless all will experience the 'Flood'. And the we will have our eyes open to the "windows" of Heaven.
This week's Torah portion includes admonitions against worshipping strange gods. In my more literal days, I would have viewed this as worshipping God by any other name than JWHW, the God of Abraham, etc. These days I have a very different point of view on what it means to worship strange gods. I am wondering how others view this. Anyone care to take a crack at it?
The Bible being a book of One God, I suppose it does mean what you originally thought, Abigail...
Personally, I would fall into the 'soft' polytheist camp, where different deities would reflect something too big for us humans to grasp, in ways that we can see, the Universal truth, the All...has different names...in a way that makes sense to our flesh and blood minds in the midst of all the bustle of life.
As I see it ,different deities often have the same goals for their people--inspiration, healing, strength, protection, joy, community, personal growth, help in hard times...
A strange god in that sense would be one that does not impact your life, one you have no relationship with.
This is what I like about doctrinal, good points, good discussion!
Abi, to answer your question you asked me, I would have to say, I don't know, but I have my theories, or "speculations" as I call them. It may be totally off the wall, or whatever, but I'll tell you what I have kind of concluded.
In Gen. 6:4 we are told there were some "after that." Or after the flood.
When Moses' spies go into the promised land after wandering, they come back and report there were giants in the land. Remember, this was the "promised land" to Israel. Ok, so Satan's purpose of corrupting the human DNA line was thwarted, so now he thinks, let's plant some in the promised land so God's people can't have it. Of course, the spies were terrified and didn't want to go there just yet. Israel wanders some more until its people and army are ready to pull this off. Whether they were literal "giants" or a bunch with corrupt DNA - who knows.
You will note in the OT, there are certain people and animals, yes, animals, Israel is called upon to wipe out. If you look at the names and trace them, they are descended from this nephilim prodigy. Goliath and Bashur were some of the remnants.
It became Israel's divine mission to get rid of this corruption that was still around and had planted itself in the promised land.
God is very stern that they were not to mingle with this people.
Eventually, of course, they do, and when the prophet finds out, he goes into deep lamentation. I don't have my bible, I forget exactly where that is. But he is devastated - oh my - what have you done??
I believe most of them were wiped out. But, you did have them mingle with men when Israel failed and mingled with them. And, of course, people say, see, God is a genocidal maniac. I believe, God knew something we didn't. Because Israel was also told to welcome the stranger. So why is one welcomed and the other destroyed?
I believe you see them pop up today - what we would call psychopaths, serial killers - men who are driven to kill, cannabilize and torture for the "fun of it." It is their nature.
I read an article once by the guy who started the FBI profiling section. He said you just cannot describe these people. He said the only way you could comprehend them, is, its almost like an alien in a human body. There is just something missing in their brains - a conscience. It goes way beyond what we in TWI would have considered "possession."
I think many of the incredible wonders of the world today - Stonehenge, temples, pyramids are pre-Noah's flood structures that still stand today. I asked Patrick Heron, after reading his book, what got you started? He said, when he visited Balbek in Turkey and saw the massive 50 ton stone block up there in the air on top of other stones, he thought, my, you'd almost have to be superhuman to do that. That piqued his interest - what if?
I think the similarity in the gods people had all over the earth, the serpent or dragon, found from China to South America. I believe at one time, these fallen angels who left their habitation did rule the people - people worshipped them as "God." The sumerians, Babylonians, egyptians, etc., left us pictures of them on their temple walls.
They purposely left the abode God had prepared them in the heavenlies or other dimensions(s?) - whatever, it caused violence to people, animals, and the earth. God is emphatic on not worshipping anyone but him.
Anyway, my 2 cents. I guess, from all the stuff I've read, this is just the jist of how the story goes.
I think the similarity in the gods people had all over the earth, the serpent or dragon, found from China to South America. I believe at one time, these fallen angels who left their habitation did rule the people - people worshipped them as "God." The sumerians, Babylonians, egyptians, etc., left us pictures of them on their temple walls.
They purposely left the abode God had prepared them in the heavenlies or other dimensions(s?) - whatever, it caused violence to people, animals, and the earth. God is emphatic on not worshipping anyone but him.
Anyway, my 2 cents. I guess, from all the stuff I've read, this is just the jist of how the story goes.
And a good .02 cents it is...
This would explain a great deal.. Like the fact that pyramids are found in so many ancient cultures, as well as structures that resemble Stonehenge, and the cave paintings and myths and "god" structure that is found all over the world.
In the bible the immediate big difference between God and the other gods is form. God is spirit the others have a physical form. After that difference comes the "benefits" or abilities of the God. Certainly if they manipulated DNA and made new creatures they would be seen as very powerful. Also if they could and did manipulate DNA then causing a good crop to grow or not would be of little consequence to them. God does not normally intervein so directly in earthly matters. So His power would have seemed infinitesimal to early man. They could see these gods and they could see the results of their gene splicing.
And I don't think you do think that, but possible.
The Corinthian message really does fit with the context you folks are speaking of.
Angels are being spoken of here, and I thought I'd clear up at least part of the references.
I do not believe angels are attracted to women with long hair. imo of course...
This is not the message of that section in Corinthians as my seeing it.
One may notice the use of the hair thing as just casually and surface meaning.
It's much deeper then that I believe, yet still very simple.
"because of the angels"-this section could be compared to pre-flood days
in a general sense, but the women spoken of here doesn't line up with "the daughters of men".....directly..although remotely related, as it all is...every piece of this giant puzzle.
So anyways, I apologize if I side tracked your line of thought and exploration into these matters.
Cman, you didn't derail anything. I figure most of the threads down here have something of a life of their own and go where the posters take them. I have just had a very busy weekend - county fair friday night, baseball game saturday night, fishing this afternoon. Family stuff. :)
The angel/nephilim thing caught my curiosity, for sure. But that doesn't mean there aren't other interesting things to discuss in all of th is. I think most verses have many layers and many truthes to them.
And by the way we are angels, invisible as the spirit.
What we see physically is not who we are.
Who we are cannot be seen.
It is only by fruit, manifestations and more that the effects of who we are are seen.
I don't know if we are angles, but I believe we are some form of spiritual creature first, and humans second. What you say about the physical is also what kabbalah teaches. That this reality is illusion and there is a greater reality. But I am not really there, I see this reality first and only glimps the other here and there.
I also believe that the flood was good for all.
Even the ones that 'perished' lived.
The windows of Heaven were opened not just Hell.
Hell is part of Heaven.
It is the consuming fire within.
I would agree that in the end, all things work for good, even though we may not be able to see the good in the moment.
We are to be followers of Christ, whether it's called Christ or not, makes no difference. It's what we are hearing and doing. Regardless all will experience the 'Flood'. And the we will have our eyes open to the "windows" of Heaven.
Agreed.
The Bible being a book of One God, I suppose it does mean what you originally thought, Abigail...
Or perhaps that is one of many meanings. Who knows. . .
Personally, I would fall into the 'soft' polytheist camp, where different deities would reflect something too big for us humans to grasp, in ways that we can see, the Universal truth, the All...has different names...in a way that makes sense to our flesh and blood minds in the midst of all the bustle of life.
Or perhaps the different dieties are really different aspects of one diety, but because it is too big to grasp it is sometimes easier to see separate ones. Either way, I think in the end we are all looking for pretty similar things and it matters not whether we call it one or many.
As I see it ,different deities often have the same goals for their people--inspiration, healing, strength, protection, joy, community, personal growth, help in hard times...
A strange god in that sense would be one that does not impact your life, one you have no relationship with.
This I find somewhat interesting. It occured to me at one time, perhaps one of my mistakes was looking for God within Christianity, in that that would be a "strange" god for me. Either way, for now I have found a place where I am content.
In Gen. 6:4 we are told there were some "after that." Or after the flood.
Yes, I have seen that - which is what prompted my question.
When Moses' spies go into the promised land after wandering, they come back and report there were giants in the land. Remember, this was the "promised land" to Israel. Ok, so Satan's purpose of corrupting the human DNA line was thwarted, so now he thinks, let's plant some in the promised land so God's people can't have it. Of course, the spies were terrified and didn't want to go there just yet. Israel wanders some more until its people and army are ready to pull this off. Whether they were literal "giants" or a bunch with corrupt DNA - who knows.
I saw this connection too. It got me thinking, if they were around in Moses day, then odds are reall good they would be walking around now too.
I believe most of them were wiped out. But, you did have them mingle with men when Israel failed and mingled with them. And, of course, people say, see, God is a genocidal maniac. I believe, God knew something we didn't. Because Israel was also told to welcome the stranger. So why is one welcomed and the other destroyed?
Well your explanation actually seems to make more sense than any other I've heard.
I believe you see them pop up today - what we would call psychopaths, serial killers - men who are driven to kill, cannabilize and torture for the "fun of it." It is their nature.
Hmmm, interesting idea. Perhaps some of the more charismatic and rotten politicians too - lol. Though I really don't want to ever get to a place where I am once again accusing or guessing at who is "possessed" so to speak and who is not. lol
I think the similarity in the gods people had all over the earth, the serpent or dragon, found from China to South America. I believe at one time, these fallen angels who left their habitation did rule the people - people worshipped them as "God." The sumerians, Babylonians, egyptians, etc., left us pictures of them on their temple walls.
yeah, I did check out the pictures in the link you posted. Pretty interesting!
They purposely left the abode God had prepared them in the heavenlies or other dimensions(s?) - whatever, it caused violence to people, animals, and the earth. God is emphatic on not worshipping anyone but him.
Anyway, my 2 cents. I guess, from all the stuff I've read, this is just the jist of how the story goes.
Yes Eyes, I agree, there does seem to be a few "common god" denominators all over the ancient earth.
I also find it interesting, people look at these ancient drawings, say on temple walls or in egypt and take everything literally - until - there's some weird creature, and then say, of course, that's just figurative.
I think the ancients knew much more than we know.
I have also seen many Christians now reading Enoch - which the remaining copies were hidden for centuries, and learning about Nephilim. I think, there is a reason God is opening this stuff up now to so many. 50 or a hundred years ago, it wasn't needed to know, it was not the right "Kairos" or particular time yet. Now, for some reason it is.
Cman, I like your posts, always food for thought!
Abi, you are right. We are told not to judge. When I think of all the time TWI spent looking for debil spurts behind every rock or in every believer - oy! We are never to judge who is God's child and who isn't either. Unfortunately, way too many "christians" love to do just that.
I think another big difference between us and spirit is blood. Blood is sacred to God - for some reason. He doesn't say why. As I've posted before, it cleanses and contains life. Christ's perfect blood was required to be shed. It covers us, cleanses sin, etc.
That's why I think so many ancient religions - blood was such an important part - spilling it, sacrificing it to the "gods." Although I do not believe these practices were of the true God. Many were bloodthirty, cruel and horrific, but their "gods" sure loved it and required it. If it was sacred to God, spilling it was a way of profaning it and the true God. Thus, in the OT God is also emphatic about his people not taking part in those rituals and sacrifices to gods.
I believe there were many people in ancient times, who were not of Israel, but in their own cultures walked with God, a famous one I can think of is Socrates. Chinese, Arab, American Indian - God worked with them too. I think at the resurrection, they will say, oh yes - this was who I was looking for!
Yes Eyes, I agree, there does seem to be a few "common god" denominators all over the ancient earth.
I also find it interesting, people look at these ancient drawings, say on temple walls or in egypt and take everything literally - until - there's some weird creature, and then say, of course, that's just figurative.
I think the ancients knew much more than we know.
I have also seen many Christians now reading Enoch - which the remaining copies were hidden for centuries, and learning about Nephilim. I think, there is a reason God is opening this stuff up now to so many. 50 or a hundred years ago, it wasn't needed to know, it was not the right "Kairos" or particular time yet. Now, for some reason it is.
I believe there were many people in ancient times, who were not of Israel, but in their own cultures walked with God, a famous one I can think of is Socrates. Chinese, Arab, American Indian - God worked with them too. I think at the resurrection, they will say, oh yes - this was who I was looking for!
I agree the ancients did know something more, or different than what we now know. In my research for my book I found many ancient cultures that seemed to be more in tune with God than we are today. Their societies practiced and exhibited an abundant life of rich prosperity. Unlike the Canaanites they were not corrupt in their riches on the contrary many ancient cultures operated many of the basic principals that we as a society have to learn in "special" classes, things like charity, and the care of the elderly and disabled and community child rearing was a big thing in many cultures as well. All of these principals are spoken of in the bible as signs of a righteous man or a healthy Godly society.
Somehow that knowledge was lost or perverted by "other gods" and those that worshipped them. Including the book of Enoch and its many lost secrets of the ancient world and of Angels.
You are so right about what they selectively decide is literal and what is figurative. I ran into that as well in my research when I came across some ancient humans that had been misclassified.
I'm beat I'll pick this up tomorrow. Good night everyone!
You are so right about what they selectively decide is literal and what is figurative. I ran into that as well in my research when I came across some ancient humans that had been misclassified.
I'm beat I'll pick this up tomorrow. Good night everyone!
I think another big difference between us and spirit is blood. Blood is sacred to God - for some reason. He doesn't say why. As I've posted before, it cleanses and contains life. Christ's perfect blood was required to be shed. It covers us, cleanses sin, etc.
That's why I think so many ancient religions - blood was such an important part - spilling it, sacrificing it to the "gods." Although I do not believe these practices were of the true God. Many were bloodthirty, cruel and horrific, but their "gods" sure loved it and required it. If it was sacred to God, spilling it was a way of profaning it and the true God. Thus, in the OT God is also emphatic about his people not taking part in those rituals and sacrifices to gods.
I find it interesting that in the Jewish tradition it seems clear that eating and drinking blood was not to be done because "life was in the blood", unlike in other surrounding contemporaneous cultures. Then along comes Jesus. His blood is spilled like Jewish sacraficial tradition, but before that he says take eat my body and drink my blood. It doesn't seem to fit with the OT law, even if it is only symbolic.
On the other hand, it is thought that there were earlier pagan traditions of consuming one's god. For example, I believe I read that this was perhaps a Dionysian tradition.
I find it interesting that in the Jewish tradition it seems clear that eating and drinking blood was not to be done because "life was in the blood", unlike in other surrounding contemporaneous cultures. Then along comes Jesus. His blood is spilled like Jewish sacraficial tradition, but before that he says take eat my body and drink my blood. It doesn't seem to fit with the OT law, even if it is only symbolic.
On the other hand, it is thought that there were earlier pagan traditions of consuming one's god. For example, I believe I read that this was perhaps a Dionysian tradition.
IIRC,
that happened when Dionysus was syncretized with Zagreus.
Zagreus was one of those "ripped to pieces and eaten" guys.
*checks*
Hm, I remembered better than I thought.
Zagreus, Dionysus, and Bacchus (Roman name for Dionysus) are all the same character, more or less.
10And whatsoever man there be of the house of Israel, or of the strangers that sojourn among you, that eateth any manner of blood; I will even set my face against that soul that eateth blood, and will cut him off from among his people. 11For the life of the flesh is in the blood: and I have given it to you upon the altar to make an atonement for your souls: for it is the blood that maketh an atonement for the soul.
Interestingly enough is this in Revelations-
13And one of the elders answered, saying unto me, What are these which are arrayed in white robes? and whence came they? 14And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb. 15Therefore are they before the throne of God, and serve him day and night in his temple: and he that sitteth on the throne shall dwell among them. 16They shall hunger no more, neither thirst any more; neither shall the sun light on them, nor any heat. 17For the Lamb which is in the midst of the throne shall feed them, and shall lead them unto living fountains of waters: and God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes.
I think it's figurative and allegorical or some other fancy word...lol...
But it is about life more then about blood imo.
And I'd say Jesus was giving life that is in his blood figuratively.
Cause really life is in the spirit i would think.
Perhaps the "Law" was saying to not be fleshly minded.
Life of the 'flesh' in the blood.
So many are stuck on the blood part they miss the flesh and life part.
So take that fleshly life out and have some meat.
Just doing a word search on blood reveals it's spiritual factors.
Especially in Hebrews.
So many wash their 'robes' in the blood of the Lamb.
Have to it seems, cause it's a dirty job I reckon.
I have always found the notion of Jesus Christ as our Passover a bit odd. Here is why:
It seemed to me, if Jesus was coming for our salvation. If his death and ressurection were for atonement for our sins, then he should be equated with the goats of Yom Kippur, which is the day of atonement.
During the days when there was a temple in Jerusalem, among other things (and these things are documented in the Bible) the following took place:
1. The high priest drew lots from a lottery box over two goats. One was selected "for the Lord," and one "for Azazzel (the scapegoat)." The High Priest tied a red band to the goat "for Azazzel."
2. The high priest made a confession over the goat on behalf of himself and his household, pronouncing the Tetragrammaton (YHWH or JHWY). The people prostrated themselves when they heard. He then slaughtered the bull as a sin-offering and received its blood in a bowl.
3. The high leaned his hands on the goat "for Azazel" and confessed the sins of the entire people of Israel. The people prostrated themselves when he pronounced the Tetragrammaton. While he made a general confession, individuals in the crowd at the Temple would confess privately. The high priest then sent the goat off "to the wilderness." In practice, to prevent its return to human habitation, the goat was led to a cliff outside Jerusalem and pushed off its edge.
There were other rituals and animal sacrifices as well, but these strike me as the primary ones, in terms of atonement for sins.
It always seemed to me the body and blood of Jesus would more rightly be equated with the two goats of Yom Kippur than with the lamb of passover. Perhaps Linda could shed some light on this.
hmmm...yeah Abigail, I'm not familiar enough with all the things that were to be done accordingly. Plus there is probably some way brain in me somewhere still...lol...
the point being of course to remove this sin blockage to get to life imo
as far as Jesus is concerned i think he broke every law in the book
in order to kill it's fleshly life and bring in the spirit of the law
(Jesus, who is Really Joshua in the correct Hebrew i think the
word Jesus cuts off some sound thinking, get tired of hearing it sometimes,
sidetracks me a bit cuz it is so abused, the word Jesus that is)
so that we don't get hung up on 'sin' or carnal/fleshly stuff
and pick up on the spirit without fear of 'judgement'
judgement has been such a fleshly fear swinging axe
cutting off any real thinking, fear of being wrong
to give the law life there has to be spiritualy minded people
willing and unafraid to look deeper into the deep things of God
just like Joshua or Jesus or anyone cause what one can do, so can another
so that we don't get hung up on 'sin' or carnal/fleshly stuff
and pick up on the spirit without fear of 'judgement'
judgement has been such a fleshly fear swinging axe
cutting off any real thinking, fear of being wrong
to give the law life there has to be spiritualy minded people
willing and unafraid to look deeper into the deep things of God
just like Joshua or Jesus or anyone cause what one can do, so can another
Amen to that. I still struggle with the whole "jesus as a savior" thing, at least as it was taught to me via TWI and how some other Christians seem to view it. Almost as a license to do whatever they want, regardless of who they hurt and step on. But, I agree whole heartedly with what he taught, especially regarding 'sin', 'judgement', etc.
Likewise, there is great depth to the law when one digs into them.
Okay, this week's study encompasses Deut 11 - 16. The blessing and the cursing . . .
Again we have the admonition about worshipping strange gods. I think we covered a bit about who some of those gods are, though I am sure not nearly all of them. So now I am thinking, how does one know they are worshipping the right god? And what exactly does it mean to worship anyway?
Is prayer worship? Is obedience to certain scriptures worship? What constitutes worship?
Recommended Posts
Top Posters In This Topic
19
5
8
6
Popular Days
Aug 3
15
Aug 2
12
Aug 5
9
Aug 4
7
Top Posters In This Topic
Abigail 19 posts
Sunesis 5 posts
cman 8 posts
Eyesopen 6 posts
Popular Days
Aug 3 2007
15 posts
Aug 2 2007
12 posts
Aug 5 2007
9 posts
Aug 4 2007
7 posts
anotherDan
LOL eyes! I don't write to good, but I edit well! :B)
Thank you wrds, that's it. Humility is a graceful ornament sometimes worn by the great.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Abigail
Here's an interesting quote from one of Sunesis' links:
Link to comment
Share on other sites
cman
I'll submit that the woman is to have a 'covering' as in long hair to indicate a following.
Following the wisdom and spirit.
For it is a shame for a man to have long hair-a following.
If a man is looking for followers it is a shame.
The man already has the position, abuse of it is a shame.
It's the woman, the spirit that is to be followed. this is the glory of the woman.
Both man and woman IN the same person of Christ within.
Nothing to do with Jesus. Jesus is not God, this is true.
But that Jesus revived it's living reality, God within,
as did Enoch and more as well as Abraham.
Consider Samson and his 'hair'.
It was his strength to let the spirit work.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Abigail
Cman, maybe I didn't explain myself well.
In Corinthians Paul talks about it being a shame for a woman to have her head uncovered. The article I was reading put forth the notion that the Jewish people at one time believed that it was the beauty of a woman's hair that so attracted the angels who eventually copulated with them and gave birth to the Nephilim.
So, if that is what Paul was taught, if that is what he believed - that a woman's hair was so beautiful it could seduce angels - then it would make sense that he would believe a modest woman would keep her hair covered. It takes a sentence in a verse that seems totally out of place, and suddenly makes sense of it.
Sunesis,
If I am reading right, then theoretically these nephilim are still alive and walking the earth today, no? Where are they? Who are they?
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Larry N Moore
Why is it that whenever someone quotes this verse they overlook the verse following the whole passage that states "But if any man seem to be contentious, we have no such custom, neither the churches of God." Seems to me that Paul is saying -- If you're going to argue over the length of a woman's hair or over her head being covered then know this -- It's no longer applicable in this present time.
Edited by Larry N MooreLink to comment
Share on other sites
Abigail
Larry, I wasn't forgetting or leaving it out, per se, I was simply offering an explanation for how it all came about and why Paul might have mentioned it.
And I am not entirely certain that is what he is referring to in the next sentence anyway - because he seems to jump and then jump back again.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Larry N Moore
Oh. Ok.
That whole section is a head scratcher (no pun intended). It seems to me that he's using that custom to make a broader point (remembering that the Corinthians were a mess when it came to customs) -- and that being -- "You guys focus on such trivial things when what really matters is that God is the head of us all. Why can't you all get along? Your contentions are more shameful than a woman not covering her head."
Link to comment
Share on other sites
cman
Well, I don't believe it's about a haircut, that's for sure.
It is about following Christ as stated at the beginning of the chapter.
I don't think it has anything to do with a womans physical hair attracting 'angels'.
Especially in a bad sense.
I don't think it's jumping around, covering any physical details, but spiritual realities.
Corinthians is written to admonish the carnal fleshly to think more spiritually.
I would think he is not talking about physical appearance.
But rather the realities of what we are made of and what we can do with 'it'.
And by the way we are angels, invisible as the spirit.
What we see physically is not who we are.
Who we are cannot be seen.
It is only by fruit, manifestations and more that the effects of who we are are seen.
The angels or mighty men or Sons of God spoken of in the story of the flood are just like us.
There will be no more wide spread flood as in the days of Noah.
It happens on an individual basis.
I also believe that the flood was good for all.
Even the ones that 'perished' lived.
The windows of Heaven were opened not just Hell.
Hell is part of Heaven.
It is the consuming fire within.
Today it happens on an individual case or person as the Lord wills.
Matthew
32Now learn a parable of the fig tree; When his branch is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves, ye know that summer is nigh: 33So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors. 34Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled. 35Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away. 36But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only. 37But as the days of Noe were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. 38For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark, 39And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. 40Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left. 41Two women shall be grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken, and the other left. 42Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come. 43But know this, that if the goodman of the house had known in what watch the thief would come, he would have watched, and would not have suffered his house to be broken up. 44Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh.
Luke
22And he said unto the disciples, The days will come, when ye shall desire to see one of the days of the Son of man, and ye shall not see it. 23And they shall say to you, See here; or, see there: go not after them, nor follow them. 24For as the lightning, that lighteneth out of the one part under heaven, shineth unto the other part under heaven; so shall also the Son of man be in his day. 25But first must he suffer many things, and be rejected of this generation. 26And as it was in the days of Noe, so shall it be also in the days of the Son of man. 27They did eat, they drank, they married wives, they were given in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark, and the flood came, and destroyed them all. 28Likewise also as it was in the days of Lot; they did eat, they drank, they bought, they sold, they planted, they builded; 29But the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all. 30Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed. 31In that day, he which shall be upon the housetop, and his stuff in the house, let him not come down to take it away: and he that is in the field, let him likewise not return back. 32Remember Lot’s wife. 33Whosoever shall seek to save his life shall lose it; and whosoever shall lose his life shall preserve it. 34I tell you, in that night there shall be two men in one bed; the one shall be taken, and the other shall be left. 35Two women shall be grinding together; the one shall be taken, and the other left. 36Two men shall be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left. 37And they answered and said unto him, Where, Lord? And he said unto them, Wheresoever the body is, thither will the eagles be gathered together.
-------------------
This coming is from within where God resides as well as in the air that we breath and surrounds every soul.
People will not be disappearing before our eyes. These things will happen within themselves.
--------------------
We are to be followers of Christ, whether it's called Christ or not, makes no difference. It's what we are hearing and doing. Regardless all will experience the 'Flood'. And the we will have our eyes open to the "windows" of Heaven.
Edited by cmanLink to comment
Share on other sites
Bramble
The Bible being a book of One God, I suppose it does mean what you originally thought, Abigail...
Personally, I would fall into the 'soft' polytheist camp, where different deities would reflect something too big for us humans to grasp, in ways that we can see, the Universal truth, the All...has different names...in a way that makes sense to our flesh and blood minds in the midst of all the bustle of life.
As I see it ,different deities often have the same goals for their people--inspiration, healing, strength, protection, joy, community, personal growth, help in hard times...
A strange god in that sense would be one that does not impact your life, one you have no relationship with.
Edited by BrambleLink to comment
Share on other sites
Sunesis
This is what I like about doctrinal, good points, good discussion!
Abi, to answer your question you asked me, I would have to say, I don't know, but I have my theories, or "speculations" as I call them. It may be totally off the wall, or whatever, but I'll tell you what I have kind of concluded.
In Gen. 6:4 we are told there were some "after that." Or after the flood.
When Moses' spies go into the promised land after wandering, they come back and report there were giants in the land. Remember, this was the "promised land" to Israel. Ok, so Satan's purpose of corrupting the human DNA line was thwarted, so now he thinks, let's plant some in the promised land so God's people can't have it. Of course, the spies were terrified and didn't want to go there just yet. Israel wanders some more until its people and army are ready to pull this off. Whether they were literal "giants" or a bunch with corrupt DNA - who knows.
You will note in the OT, there are certain people and animals, yes, animals, Israel is called upon to wipe out. If you look at the names and trace them, they are descended from this nephilim prodigy. Goliath and Bashur were some of the remnants.
It became Israel's divine mission to get rid of this corruption that was still around and had planted itself in the promised land.
God is very stern that they were not to mingle with this people.
Eventually, of course, they do, and when the prophet finds out, he goes into deep lamentation. I don't have my bible, I forget exactly where that is. But he is devastated - oh my - what have you done??
I believe most of them were wiped out. But, you did have them mingle with men when Israel failed and mingled with them. And, of course, people say, see, God is a genocidal maniac. I believe, God knew something we didn't. Because Israel was also told to welcome the stranger. So why is one welcomed and the other destroyed?
I believe you see them pop up today - what we would call psychopaths, serial killers - men who are driven to kill, cannabilize and torture for the "fun of it." It is their nature.
I read an article once by the guy who started the FBI profiling section. He said you just cannot describe these people. He said the only way you could comprehend them, is, its almost like an alien in a human body. There is just something missing in their brains - a conscience. It goes way beyond what we in TWI would have considered "possession."
I think many of the incredible wonders of the world today - Stonehenge, temples, pyramids are pre-Noah's flood structures that still stand today. I asked Patrick Heron, after reading his book, what got you started? He said, when he visited Balbek in Turkey and saw the massive 50 ton stone block up there in the air on top of other stones, he thought, my, you'd almost have to be superhuman to do that. That piqued his interest - what if?
I think the similarity in the gods people had all over the earth, the serpent or dragon, found from China to South America. I believe at one time, these fallen angels who left their habitation did rule the people - people worshipped them as "God." The sumerians, Babylonians, egyptians, etc., left us pictures of them on their temple walls.
They purposely left the abode God had prepared them in the heavenlies or other dimensions(s?) - whatever, it caused violence to people, animals, and the earth. God is emphatic on not worshipping anyone but him.
Anyway, my 2 cents. I guess, from all the stuff I've read, this is just the jist of how the story goes.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Eyesopen
And a good .02 cents it is...
This would explain a great deal.. Like the fact that pyramids are found in so many ancient cultures, as well as structures that resemble Stonehenge, and the cave paintings and myths and "god" structure that is found all over the world.
In the bible the immediate big difference between God and the other gods is form. God is spirit the others have a physical form. After that difference comes the "benefits" or abilities of the God. Certainly if they manipulated DNA and made new creatures they would be seen as very powerful. Also if they could and did manipulate DNA then causing a good crop to grow or not would be of little consequence to them. God does not normally intervein so directly in earthly matters. So His power would have seemed infinitesimal to early man. They could see these gods and they could see the results of their gene splicing.
This is quite plausable.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
cman
Abigail, I'm not trying to take this off subject.
And I don't think you do think that, but possible.
The Corinthian message really does fit with the context you folks are speaking of.
Angels are being spoken of here, and I thought I'd clear up at least part of the references.
I do not believe angels are attracted to women with long hair. imo of course...
This is not the message of that section in Corinthians as my seeing it.
One may notice the use of the hair thing as just casually and surface meaning.
It's much deeper then that I believe, yet still very simple.
"because of the angels"-this section could be compared to pre-flood days
in a general sense, but the women spoken of here doesn't line up with "the daughters of men".....directly..although remotely related, as it all is...every piece of this giant puzzle.
So anyways, I apologize if I side tracked your line of thought and exploration into these matters.
As Always,
Peace to you and yours.....
Edited by cmanLink to comment
Share on other sites
Abigail
Cman, you didn't derail anything. I figure most of the threads down here have something of a life of their own and go where the posters take them. I have just had a very busy weekend - county fair friday night, baseball game saturday night, fishing this afternoon. Family stuff. :)
The angel/nephilim thing caught my curiosity, for sure. But that doesn't mean there aren't other interesting things to discuss in all of th is. I think most verses have many layers and many truthes to them.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Abigail
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Sunesis
Yes Eyes, I agree, there does seem to be a few "common god" denominators all over the ancient earth.
I also find it interesting, people look at these ancient drawings, say on temple walls or in egypt and take everything literally - until - there's some weird creature, and then say, of course, that's just figurative.
I think the ancients knew much more than we know.
I have also seen many Christians now reading Enoch - which the remaining copies were hidden for centuries, and learning about Nephilim. I think, there is a reason God is opening this stuff up now to so many. 50 or a hundred years ago, it wasn't needed to know, it was not the right "Kairos" or particular time yet. Now, for some reason it is.
Cman, I like your posts, always food for thought!
Abi, you are right. We are told not to judge. When I think of all the time TWI spent looking for debil spurts behind every rock or in every believer - oy! We are never to judge who is God's child and who isn't either. Unfortunately, way too many "christians" love to do just that.
I think another big difference between us and spirit is blood. Blood is sacred to God - for some reason. He doesn't say why. As I've posted before, it cleanses and contains life. Christ's perfect blood was required to be shed. It covers us, cleanses sin, etc.
That's why I think so many ancient religions - blood was such an important part - spilling it, sacrificing it to the "gods." Although I do not believe these practices were of the true God. Many were bloodthirty, cruel and horrific, but their "gods" sure loved it and required it. If it was sacred to God, spilling it was a way of profaning it and the true God. Thus, in the OT God is also emphatic about his people not taking part in those rituals and sacrifices to gods.
I believe there were many people in ancient times, who were not of Israel, but in their own cultures walked with God, a famous one I can think of is Socrates. Chinese, Arab, American Indian - God worked with them too. I think at the resurrection, they will say, oh yes - this was who I was looking for!
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Eyesopen
I agree the ancients did know something more, or different than what we now know. In my research for my book I found many ancient cultures that seemed to be more in tune with God than we are today. Their societies practiced and exhibited an abundant life of rich prosperity. Unlike the Canaanites they were not corrupt in their riches on the contrary many ancient cultures operated many of the basic principals that we as a society have to learn in "special" classes, things like charity, and the care of the elderly and disabled and community child rearing was a big thing in many cultures as well. All of these principals are spoken of in the bible as signs of a righteous man or a healthy Godly society.
Somehow that knowledge was lost or perverted by "other gods" and those that worshipped them. Including the book of Enoch and its many lost secrets of the ancient world and of Angels.
You are so right about what they selectively decide is literal and what is figurative. I ran into that as well in my research when I came across some ancient humans that had been misclassified.
I'm beat I'll pick this up tomorrow. Good night everyone!
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Abigail
Please do!
Link to comment
Share on other sites
lindyhopper
I find it interesting that in the Jewish tradition it seems clear that eating and drinking blood was not to be done because "life was in the blood", unlike in other surrounding contemporaneous cultures. Then along comes Jesus. His blood is spilled like Jewish sacraficial tradition, but before that he says take eat my body and drink my blood. It doesn't seem to fit with the OT law, even if it is only symbolic.
On the other hand, it is thought that there were earlier pagan traditions of consuming one's god. For example, I believe I read that this was perhaps a Dionysian tradition.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
WordWolf
IIRC,
that happened when Dionysus was syncretized with Zagreus.
Zagreus was one of those "ripped to pieces and eaten" guys.
*checks*
Hm, I remembered better than I thought.
Zagreus, Dionysus, and Bacchus (Roman name for Dionysus) are all the same character, more or less.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zagreus
http://www.themystica.com/mythical-folk/ar...es/zagreus.html
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orphism_%28religion%29
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dionysian_Mysteries
(That last link is a big article, but the section with the word "sparagmos" is relevant.
That refers to the "ripped to pieces and eaten" practice.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maenads
Link to comment
Share on other sites
cman
Good points Lindy.
here's the life in the blood thing
Lev 17
10And whatsoever man there be of the house of Israel, or of the strangers that sojourn among you, that eateth any manner of blood; I will even set my face against that soul that eateth blood, and will cut him off from among his people. 11For the life of the flesh is in the blood: and I have given it to you upon the altar to make an atonement for your souls: for it is the blood that maketh an atonement for the soul.
Interestingly enough is this in Revelations-
13And one of the elders answered, saying unto me, What are these which are arrayed in white robes? and whence came they? 14And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb. 15Therefore are they before the throne of God, and serve him day and night in his temple: and he that sitteth on the throne shall dwell among them. 16They shall hunger no more, neither thirst any more; neither shall the sun light on them, nor any heat. 17For the Lamb which is in the midst of the throne shall feed them, and shall lead them unto living fountains of waters: and God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes.
I think it's figurative and allegorical or some other fancy word...lol...
But it is about life more then about blood imo.
And I'd say Jesus was giving life that is in his blood figuratively.
Cause really life is in the spirit i would think.
Perhaps the "Law" was saying to not be fleshly minded.
Life of the 'flesh' in the blood.
So many are stuck on the blood part they miss the flesh and life part.
So take that fleshly life out and have some meat.
Just doing a word search on blood reveals it's spiritual factors.
Especially in Hebrews.
So many wash their 'robes' in the blood of the Lamb.
Have to it seems, cause it's a dirty job I reckon.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Abigail
I have always found the notion of Jesus Christ as our Passover a bit odd. Here is why:
It seemed to me, if Jesus was coming for our salvation. If his death and ressurection were for atonement for our sins, then he should be equated with the goats of Yom Kippur, which is the day of atonement.
During the days when there was a temple in Jerusalem, among other things (and these things are documented in the Bible) the following took place:
1. The high priest drew lots from a lottery box over two goats. One was selected "for the Lord," and one "for Azazzel (the scapegoat)." The High Priest tied a red band to the goat "for Azazzel."
2. The high priest made a confession over the goat on behalf of himself and his household, pronouncing the Tetragrammaton (YHWH or JHWY). The people prostrated themselves when they heard. He then slaughtered the bull as a sin-offering and received its blood in a bowl.
3. The high leaned his hands on the goat "for Azazel" and confessed the sins of the entire people of Israel. The people prostrated themselves when he pronounced the Tetragrammaton. While he made a general confession, individuals in the crowd at the Temple would confess privately. The high priest then sent the goat off "to the wilderness." In practice, to prevent its return to human habitation, the goat was led to a cliff outside Jerusalem and pushed off its edge.
There were other rituals and animal sacrifices as well, but these strike me as the primary ones, in terms of atonement for sins.
It always seemed to me the body and blood of Jesus would more rightly be equated with the two goats of Yom Kippur than with the lamb of passover. Perhaps Linda could shed some light on this.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
cman
hmmm...yeah Abigail, I'm not familiar enough with all the things that were to be done accordingly. Plus there is probably some way brain in me somewhere still...lol...
the point being of course to remove this sin blockage to get to life imo
as far as Jesus is concerned i think he broke every law in the book
in order to kill it's fleshly life and bring in the spirit of the law
(Jesus, who is Really Joshua in the correct Hebrew i think the
word Jesus cuts off some sound thinking, get tired of hearing it sometimes,
sidetracks me a bit cuz it is so abused, the word Jesus that is)
so that we don't get hung up on 'sin' or carnal/fleshly stuff
and pick up on the spirit without fear of 'judgement'
judgement has been such a fleshly fear swinging axe
cutting off any real thinking, fear of being wrong
to give the law life there has to be spiritualy minded people
willing and unafraid to look deeper into the deep things of God
just like Joshua or Jesus or anyone cause what one can do, so can another
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Abigail
Amen to that. I still struggle with the whole "jesus as a savior" thing, at least as it was taught to me via TWI and how some other Christians seem to view it. Almost as a license to do whatever they want, regardless of who they hurt and step on. But, I agree whole heartedly with what he taught, especially regarding 'sin', 'judgement', etc.
Likewise, there is great depth to the law when one digs into them.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Abigail
Okay, this week's study encompasses Deut 11 - 16. The blessing and the cursing . . .
Again we have the admonition about worshipping strange gods. I think we covered a bit about who some of those gods are, though I am sure not nearly all of them. So now I am thinking, how does one know they are worshipping the right god? And what exactly does it mean to worship anyway?
Is prayer worship? Is obedience to certain scriptures worship? What constitutes worship?
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.