well before i address cat's last post (holy moley)
--
i did want to say to eyes ~
Dear Exie, I see in you a profound gentleness and fierce determination mixed with incredible strength of character. I think that you would be the type of person that could bring a room to silence upon entering.
now i know why i've stayed on these forums all these years !!!!! ;) smooch hug smooch ;)
--
By the way--
Women on staff at The Way International were highly encouraged to attend birthing classes taught by nurses on TWI staff rather than at the local hospital. These nurses NEVER COVERED this very essential material regarding sexually abused patients with the pregnant women on staff.
I wonder why?
The material was good enough to impart to Rawlins' "unbeliever" patients.
Why not distribute the same information to the Corps and staff?
Catcup...my midwife used to call me every day after the baby was born....some days all I could do was hyperventillate into the phone.....and she would say *alright..what has he done NOW*???? lol
Comments like.....*No cathy, I don`t think Mark is a COMPLETE a$$ hole*...or *nooooo I don`t think that right now is the time (just after the birth of our 7th child lol) to consider leaving him*....:) invariably she would get me laughing....if she couldn`t ...without me asking.....she would drive the hour and a half to my house make me a cup of soothing tea, and rub my back while I tearfully blurted out my woes....I didn`t know why I was so neurotic after my babies were born...I didn`t know why the germaphobia would set in and incapacitate me...I felt like I was hanging on to sanity by the skin of my teeth.
SHE was an awsome professional...no doubt skilled in recognizing the ppd ...that you mentioned.......She went way above and beyond the call of duty in caring for me.....I do not know what I would have done without her....she is also the one that badgered me (in a good way) to finally get the pap smear that detected my cervical cancer in time to get it treated.
A trained professional to spot the severe reactions from abuse....what a blessing verses the professional that unknowingly further traumatizes an already fragile patient.
Cat, I am so glad to have another piece of the puzzle...why my reactions were so strong, why my ppd might have been so severe. It really really helps to know that maybe it wasn`t all just insanity due to hormones being out of whack.
Lol ex..you are so gutsy :)
WG...I laughed so hard at your mom`s comment about the window washer...that my husband had to come see what was wrong....he belly laughed too for the longest time...we definatly can identify with your mothers comment :)
Eyes, that was an awfully nice thing to say....thank you....as a matter of fact I have been referred to as *mama grizzly* a time or two because NOBODY messes with my cubs...lol
The picture of yoda by my name is because that is what my kids call me....they say that I am small...diminuative and harmless looking....but push the wrong buttons....mess with somebody in my presence ...and I am a force to be reckoned with...lol I guess that I am pretty intimidating when I finally get wound up....
The thing is...with others ....it is easy to be strong...to see the best in thm......but me...how I feel about me.....it`s like some of us were talking about a line from the movie pretty woman .... It`s easier to believe the lies....
I have no trouble standing up for others.....it is myself that I have difficulty seeing any good in.
Eyes, that was an awfully nice thing to say....thank you....as a matter of fact I have been referred to as *mama grizzly* a time or two because NOBODY messes with my cubs...lol
The picture of yoda by my name is because that is what my kids call me....they say that I am small...diminuative and harmless looking....but push the wrong buttons....mess with somebody in my presence ...and I am a force to be reckoned with...lol I guess that I am pretty intimidating when I finally get wound up....
The thing is...with others ....it is easy to be strong...to see the best in thm......but me...how I feel about me.....it`s like some of us were talking about a line from the movie pretty woman .... It`s easier to believe the lies....
I have no trouble standing up for others.....it is myself that I have difficulty seeing any good in.
Well then I guess those that love you will have to stand up for you until you can see what we see!
i did want to say to eyes ~
now i know why i've stayed on these forums all these years !!!!! ;) smooch hug smooch ;)
Just saying what I see...and I am glad that you stuck around 'cause I have learned quite a bit from you and hope to learn more.
SHE was an awsome professional...no doubt skilled in recognizing the ppd ...that you mentioned.......She went way above and beyond the call of duty in caring for me.....
Nope, she didn't go above and beyond the call of duty, believe it or not. That's what a good, caring, properly trained professional is supposed to do!
A properly skilled, educated, and licensed midwife is a darn good way to go. I hate to say it, but sometimes midwives have more training in the area we are discussing than the regular obgyns.
I do not know what I would have done without her....she is also the one that badgered me (in a good way) to finally get the pap smear that detected my cervical cancer in time to get it treated.
Unfortunately, many doctors won't do the "badgering." It is true that we need to take responsibility for being proactive about our own health care. The doctors therefore will put it out there as a reccommendation, but I have found that follow up is not necessarily a strong suit with some. Doctors do, especially working for huge hospitals, limit the time they spend with each patient. They must impart the info and move on. Many midwives are independent and can therefore take more time to tailor their care to the individual patient. Doctors sometimes cannot practice medicine the way they would like to because of the constraints put upon them by the huge corporations they work for.
A trained professional to spot the severe reactions from abuse....what a blessing verses the professional that unknowingly further traumatizes an already fragile patient.
Very, very true. That is why it is very important for nurses and other medical professionals to keep up with their continuing education units and get this extra training. That's why medicine is a practice. You have to keep doing it to be good at it, and you have to keep up with current information. Otherwise, you and your patients are left in the dark.
And by the way, yes, you did hit the jackpot with that midwife. She was right there on top of everything, just like she was supposed to be. Those people are absolutely golden.
Have you seen any information on the the intergenerational effects of this? Do women who have been abused unintentionally pass this on to their daughters?
I have never been sexually abused, but I suspected my mother was (not by my father, possibly by her father). She passed away last year, so she can never tell us, but she had many characteristics of someone who had suffered serious long term sexual abuse. The emotions surrounding control you described feel creepily familiar in ways I cannot verbalize. I sense I "inherited" my fears from her based on her reactions and responses to events, conversations, etc.
Even though I love children and would have loved to have been a mother, the birth and delivery process seemed like something I could never allow. I skipped many years of annual physicals (even though I had good health insurance) because of those creepy feelings. Now I have a wonderful woman doc and get my exams every year.
Keep up your very important work. I hope you write a book someday. I will buy 4 copies - one for each of my mother's daughters. Only one sister managed to overcome the creepiness and had children later in life. They are young enough to be my grandchildren and I spoil them as if they were.
Have you seen any information on the the intergenerational effects of this? Do women who have been abused unintentionally pass this on to their daughters?
There is information out there on this in the medical journals and probably in some of the books you can find at Borders on the subject. My advice would be take the time to peruse the aisle concerning women's issues and check the chapters. You may find some helpful information that way. The best way though would be go to your local library and look up the information in The new England Journal of Medicine, Social Science Review, or some of the Psychological Journals out there. They would have the most up to date and accurate information out there on the subject.
The old addage that "children learn what they live" is true is many aspects. Many things are passed on to our children unintentionally because our behavior, especially when very young, is the model for their own. The desire to "not rock the boat" and the desire to do anything to please a person, the inability to say no to people who make imposing requests, some of these cultural and social habits are picked up by children. And if not ever put in their proper context, send the wrong message.
Damn it Cat I feel like you are smacking me in the head with a ball bat with every post you write....I`ll be DAMNED if you didn`t just describe me to a *T*
The desire to not rock the boat...the desire to do anything to please....inability to say no....hmmmmm
Ok....so I guess once recognising this as unhealthy behavior....we can stop.... how do we stop from passing this crap on to the kiddoes?
Alright this may sound like a strange comparison so bear with me...
In light of parents passing on their own "tauma reactions" to their children....
I have a cat (please don't roll your eyes) she is a darling of a cat. But her mother had been badly abused. I rescued her from a burlap sack that was going to be pitched into the river. Anyway momma cat is long since gone, but her daughter...my little Arora is still with me. She is by far the most skiddish cat that I have ever owned, with the exception of her mother. I understood why mom was so skiddish...she had been horribly abused and would only come to me and my niece. But Roar what was her problem? I have never harmed that cat...none of my cats. I was at a loss.
Then one day while observing her with a litter of kittens another person (my roommate) entered my bedroom where she had given birth. She immediately began to shuffle the kittens back under the bed. She was fanatical about it. I thought she was going to give herself a stroke it was that frantic. I even helped her but of course the kittens had tasted the "outside" world of the room and would not remain confined. Finally to save my poor cat the anurism that she was certainly driving herself towards and I told my roommie to leave the room. At which time she began to calm down.
But after that anytime that he would pass my room she would once again begin to panic. All the while talking to her children. Eventually the kittens began to recognize his step and would dart for cover at the sound. She had effectively passed on her phobia. The kittens needed special attention by me as they grew or they would have all been to traumatized to give away.
I don't dare get her fixed. She finds completion in having children in fact she would go absolutely nuts if she could no longer have them. But my other cat Marishka raises them for the most part so that the condition no longer continues. It's funny that my other cat noticed the problem and actually made Roar back away from the babies until they were old enough to "think" for themselves.
So I can see how a human mother could train her children "trauma response", without really having much of a true conscous thought about it. And also thinking that they are actually helping their children.
Damn it Cat I feel like you are smacking me in the head with a ball bat with every post you write....I`ll be DAMNED if you didn`t just describe me to a *T*
The desire to not rock the boat...the desire to do anything to please....inability to say no....hmmmmm
Ok....so I guess once recognising this as unhealthy behavior....we can stop.... how do we stop from passing this crap on to the kiddoes?
Sorry, Rascal, I don't mean to smack ya
Recognizing those behaviors are a problem is the first step.
Beginning to challenge and correct them in yourself is another.
Instill into your children a healthy dose of self esteem:
Show them how important it is to speak up if something is not right
Show them how it is important to stand up for what they know is right
Show them they have the right to deny a request that is not in their best interest or will harm someone else
Show them their opinions, concerns, and feelings matter to you
Show them that they have the power to make a difference in the world
From what I see kiddo, you're working on it pretty well.
BTW, Martial arts have enormous benefits in these areas.
Lol..thanks Cat...I knew that I had these traits...I din`t understand why....I just thought I was nuts...doomed to a life of struggling to not let the anxiety and self esteem drag me under.
To recognise WHY I am this way...that I wasn`t born damaged...I don`t know how I can explain how freeing this is to me.
All I can say is thank you...thank you for being part of the healing and answeres....I can`t explain how timely that this is...I can only tell you that the information that you and others have presented on these threads...has dove tailed precisely into what I was being prepared for...can I say that I think that it was God??.
I can`t explain it...I can only hope that you get a glimpse of the good that has been accomplished of people being part of the hands and feet of God....in at least ONE life here.
Nope eyes..not a stretch...I get it...that is pretty close.
Agreed martial arts is really really good for removing the feelings of helplessness.
I`d love to tell a story about that...but isn`t applicable to this thread.
This thread sounds like the daily discussion in my waiting room. In the USA and most of the western world, the blessings and lessons of a wholesome birth experience has been robbed from women. I truly believe that if we could give birth in the way God intended, our entire value on life, and confidence in ourselves as females, and sense of "family", would change the path of the world. We midwives have a saying - "A peaceful Earth begins with Birth".
Am I too dramatic here? Well, this is what I do for a living. I've been delivering babies for 25 years ... in a different way than the OB-IV-mechanized-medicated-Csectioned-alienated method which rules modern maternity.
Yesterday, for example, there was a baby girl born at my little house. She still has no name because she is the fourth daughter for this family, and they are "plum out of names" (as the dad put it). I have attended the births of their other three girls as well, all of whom were present when this one entered the world yesterday. Mostly my clients have their babies in their own homes, but this family drove to my place in Montana, from Wyoming where midwives are illegal.
The whole family arrived with pillows and food and baby clothes and diapers, hoping for a boy of course, but grateful for whatever God would give them. One of my helpers made lasagna and salad for them, as the kids watched TV, and the parents set up their birthing room with flowers and music and a bright colored quilt. A good dinner during labor is so much nicer than an IV in your arm. The laboring mom washed the dishes, while the dad read a bedtime story to the three girls and tucked them into sleeping bags spread out on the floor. Baby's vitals were good as the contractions got stronger. The mom knew I would not do a vaginal exam until she asked for one. A few hours later, with broken water and some pretty powerful pains, she finally said "check me". Dilation was ten centimeters. She was sitting on the bed. Her husband sat behind her, leaning on the head of the bed, with his knees up on both sides of her, so she could brace herself to push. Soon we saw a little bit of the baby's head, beautiful dark hair. The dad asked me to pray (He knew from experience that I do this just before each baby comes out). I prayed for a wiggle-y pink baby, and for the mother's strength. At the word, "Amen", the mom began to cry, and then gave one more push. The infant presented with one little hand pressed over an ear, as though she were greeting us all with a wave of "hello". Everything was quiet except for some soft music and the squeal of the 4-year-old "big" sister who stood by the bed. My apprentice said "Welcome, baby", and I said "God bless you, child". The dad said, "It's another pretty girl", and then he cut the cord. We wrapped the baby, and gave her to the oldest sister (age 6) to hold while the mom squatted on the floor to expel the placenta. The 2-year-old watched wide-eyed, and asked, "Is there another baby, mommy?" We all laughed, and then the whole family snuggled up on the bed, under their own quilt, to make phone calls to the grandparents.
This mom believes fully in herself as a strong woman and a good mother. This dad honors his wife's power, and cherishes his four home-born daughters. These girls are not afraid of their own female bodies, and they see childbirth as a fun day like Christmas when a woman works really hard and then everyone gets a gift in the end. Fear is not a part of this. It's all about LIFE.
Who took this joy away from American women? Take a guess. Religion. Christianity. Remember the witch trials? Those were the midwives. They were said to be "of the devil". When I was in TWI, I sensed this same judgment on myself from the leaders there. Now, please understand, I am not a man-hater or a political feminist. But I believe that the religious (male) leaders a couple of centuries ago realized the power and honor held by the midwives, and were compelled to destroy it. Birth is almost synonymous with the word, "miracle". Power in birthing is undeniable. That's about the time in history when men pirated the role of the midwives, and soon the laboring women were removed from their homes, and sent to hospitals, where males - who will never experience birth themselves - took over. But they didn't get it, they couldn't comprehend the resulting satisfaction and self esteem that women end up with, once they've birthed a baby. So they drugged us and cut us and infected us, and destroyed the God-given life's-passage, which is childbirth. Today one out of every three babies in our country is "born" by surgery, because "we can't do it by ourselves - poor us". And who gets the glory? Not God. Not the mother.
Birth belongs at home. To go to the hospital for birth is like to go to the hospital for love-making. It is NOT medical. It is NOT technical. It is passion and spirit and awesome and holy. I'm sorry that so many of us have been ripped off and fooled. This is a big deal to me. I've pretty much given my life to this purpose.
Thanks, Catcup, for an opportunity to speak my peace. And for some nice photos, you can check out my website: www.mountainmidwives.com
" To go to the hospital for birth is like to go to the hospital for love-making. "
I think that's a GSC classic!
I have known this in myself for some time, but have only this moment verbalized it. As badly as we wanted a child, I know that I was so absolutely terrified of the birth process that I just couldn't retain a pregnancy. Never made it past the second missed cycle. There were a few medical problems that were taken care of by surgery, but the real cause of infertility was my fear of submitting a less than perfect performance as I gave birth.
The other factor was living in a small university town in Ohio, where midwives AND THEIR PATIENTS were actually persecuted. This has happened in many states. I remember one woman who in fact I think lived in Ohio at the time who chose home birth. There were complications, she was taken to the local ER and made to wait (she couldn't deliver the placenta) an inordinate amount of time once she revealed the home birth.
I suspect the real reason allopaths etc don't like home birth is economic.
Kind of on the topic--I had c sections, and years later I had two hernia surgeries related to the c sections. One was a surgery that involved a very long incision, the other was much smaller.
I now have a mesh in my gut which will make any further surgery ever needed in that area much more complicated--wasn't real thrilled about that, but it was that or more hernias down the road, since I seem to make weak scars.
My doctor wondered if, as the c section population grows and ages, whether there will be more hernia surgeries.
The whole family arrived with pillows and food and baby clothes and diapers, hoping for a boy of course, but grateful for whatever God would give them. One of my helpers made lasagna and salad for them, as the kids watched TV, and the parents set up their birthing room with flowers and music and a bright colored quilt. A good dinner during labor is so much nicer than an IV in your arm. The laboring mom washed the dishes, while the dad read a bedtime story to the three girls and tucked them into sleeping bags spread out on the floor. Baby's vitals were good as the contractions got stronger. The mom knew I would not do a vaginal exam until she asked for one. A few hours later, with broken water and some pretty powerful pains, she finally said "check me". Dilation was ten centimeters. She was sitting on the bed. Her husband sat behind her, leaning on the head of the bed, with his knees up on both sides of her, so she could brace herself to push. Soon we saw a little bit of the baby's head, beautiful dark hair. The dad asked me to pray (He knew from experience that I do this just before each baby comes out). I prayed for a wiggle-y pink baby, and for the mother's strength. At the word, "Amen", the mom began to cry, and then gave one more push. The infant presented with one little hand pressed over an ear, as though she were greeting us all with a wave of "hello". Everything was quiet except for some soft music and the squeal of the 4-year-old "big" sister who stood by the bed. My apprentice said "Welcome, baby", and I said "God bless you, child". The dad said, "It's another pretty girl", and then he cut the cord. We wrapped the baby, and gave her to the oldest sister (age 6) to hold while the mom squatted on the floor to expel the placenta. The 2-year-old watched wide-eyed, and asked, "Is there another baby, mommy?" We all laughed, and then the whole family snuggled up on the bed, under their own quilt, to make phone calls to the grandparents.
THAT is the way birth is supposed to be.
This mom believes fully in herself as a strong woman and a good mother. This dad honors his wife's power, and cherishes his four home-born daughters. These girls are not afraid of their own female bodies, and they see childbirth as a fun day like Christmas when a woman works really hard and then everyone gets a gift in the end. Fear is not a part of this. It's all about LIFE.
THAT is the way the family should be.
Who took this joy away from American women? Take a guess. Religion. Christianity. Remember the witch trials? Those were the midwives. They were said to be "of the devil". When I was in TWI, I sensed this same judgment on myself from the leaders there. Now, please understand, I am not a man-hater or a political feminist. But I believe that the religious (male) leaders a couple of centuries ago realized the power and honor held by the midwives, and were compelled to destroy it. Birth is almost synonymous with the word, "miracle". Power in birthing is undeniable. That's about the time in history when men pirated the role of the midwives, and soon the laboring women were removed from their homes, and sent to hospitals, where males - who will never experience birth themselves - took over. But they didn't get it, they couldn't comprehend the resulting satisfaction and self esteem that women end up with, once they've birthed a baby. So they drugged us and cut us and infected us, and destroyed the God-given life's-passage, which is childbirth. Today one out of every three babies in our country is "born" by surgery, because "we can't do it by ourselves - poor us". And who gets the glory? Not God. Not the mother.
THAT is exactly how the woman's power over her own birth and her authorioty over her own body was robbed in America.
Birth belongs at home. To go to the hospital for birth is like to go to the hospital for love-making. It is NOT medical. It is NOT technical. It is passion and spirit and awesome and holy. I'm sorry that so many of us have been ripped off and fooled. This is a big deal to me. I've pretty much given my life to this purpose.
I agree. We need more women like you. It's nice to see one of the Golden people here at the cafe.
Thanks, Catcup, for an opportunity to speak my peace. And for some nice photos, you can check out my website: www.mountainmidwives.com
You're very welcome. Awsome website, Shifra! Great work!
This thread sounds like the daily discussion in my waiting room. In the USA and most of the western world, the blessings and lessons of a wholesome birth experience has been robbed from women. I truly believe that if we could give birth in the way God intended, our entire value on life, and confidence in ourselves as females, and sense of "family", would change the path of the world. We midwives have a saying - "A peaceful Earth begins with Birth".
Am I too dramatic here? Well, this is what I do for a living. I've been delivering babies for 25 years ... in a different way than the OB-IV-mechanized-medicated-Csectioned-alienated method which rules modern maternity.
Yesterday, for example, there was a baby girl born at my little house. She still has no name because she is the fourth daughter for this family, and they are "plum out of names" (as the dad put it). I have attended the births of their other three girls as well, all of whom were present when this one entered the world yesterday. Mostly my clients have their babies in their own homes, but this family drove to my place in Montana, from Wyoming where midwives are illegal.
The whole family arrived with pillows and food and baby clothes and diapers, hoping for a boy of course, but grateful for whatever God would give them. One of my helpers made lasagna and salad for them, as the kids watched TV, and the parents set up their birthing room with flowers and music and a bright colored quilt. A good dinner during labor is so much nicer than an IV in your arm. The laboring mom washed the dishes, while the dad read a bedtime story to the three girls and tucked them into sleeping bags spread out on the floor. Baby's vitals were good as the contractions got stronger. The mom knew I would not do a vaginal exam until she asked for one. A few hours later, with broken water and some pretty powerful pains, she finally said "check me". Dilation was ten centimeters. She was sitting on the bed. Her husband sat behind her, leaning on the head of the bed, with his knees up on both sides of her, so she could brace herself to push. Soon we saw a little bit of the baby's head, beautiful dark hair. The dad asked me to pray (He knew from experience that I do this just before each baby comes out). I prayed for a wiggle-y pink baby, and for the mother's strength. At the word, "Amen", the mom began to cry, and then gave one more push. The infant presented with one little hand pressed over an ear, as though she were greeting us all with a wave of "hello". Everything was quiet except for some soft music and the squeal of the 4-year-old "big" sister who stood by the bed. My apprentice said "Welcome, baby", and I said "God bless you, child". The dad said, "It's another pretty girl", and then he cut the cord. We wrapped the baby, and gave her to the oldest sister (age 6) to hold while the mom squatted on the floor to expel the placenta. The 2-year-old watched wide-eyed, and asked, "Is there another baby, mommy?" We all laughed, and then the whole family snuggled up on the bed, under their own quilt, to make phone calls to the grandparents.
This mom believes fully in herself as a strong woman and a good mother. This dad honors his wife's power, and cherishes his four home-born daughters. These girls are not afraid of their own female bodies, and they see childbirth as a fun day like Christmas when a woman works really hard and then everyone gets a gift in the end. Fear is not a part of this. It's all about LIFE.
Who took this joy away from American women? Take a guess. Religion. Christianity. Remember the witch trials? Those were the midwives. They were said to be "of the devil". When I was in TWI, I sensed this same judgment on myself from the leaders there. Now, please understand, I am not a man-hater or a political feminist. But I believe that the religious (male) leaders a couple of centuries ago realized the power and honor held by the midwives, and were compelled to destroy it. Birth is almost synonymous with the word, "miracle". Power in birthing is undeniable. That's about the time in history when men pirated the role of the midwives, and soon the laboring women were removed from their homes, and sent to hospitals, where males - who will never experience birth themselves - took over. But they didn't get it, they couldn't comprehend the resulting satisfaction and self esteem that women end up with, once they've birthed a baby. So they drugged us and cut us and infected us, and destroyed the God-given life's-passage, which is childbirth. Today one out of every three babies in our country is "born" by surgery, because "we can't do it by ourselves - poor us". And who gets the glory? Not God. Not the mother.
Birth belongs at home. To go to the hospital for birth is like to go to the hospital for love-making. It is NOT medical. It is NOT technical. It is passion and spirit and awesome and holy. I'm sorry that so many of us have been ripped off and fooled. This is a big deal to me. I've pretty much given my life to this purpose.
Thanks, Catcup, for an opportunity to speak my peace. And for some nice photos, you can check out my website: www.mountainmidwives.com
Great stuff, Shifra. It made me cry. So glad your're out there doing what you do.
I really wanted to have home births for my two children but the insurance only the covered Dr/hospital route so I went along with it because of financial considerations.
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excathedra
well before i address cat's last post (holy moley)
--
i did want to say to eyes ~
now i know why i've stayed on these forums all these years !!!!! ;) smooch hug smooch ;)--
that STINKS
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excathedra
i went to my regular doctor not too long ago
and this young guy walks in and says he's doing whatever they do when they're training
he said, can i ask you a few questions
i said NO
so he left
my regular doctor laughed her a$$ off
even though she's the one providing them the experience
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Dot Matrix
Because of rape
I have/had a problem with the dentist and claustrophobia.
I absolutely freaked at the dentist. I almost climbed out the window... Once, I went up to the receptionist and asked her to sit with me
I cannot do elevators, I can't go into a small bathroom without a window...
I always have the need to escape.
I had these problems for YEARS, after SOM prayed for me I could handle the dentist last time -- but the other day I still could not do an elevator
I guess this just go on the other thread
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Dot Matrix
Wrong thread again
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rascal
Catcup...my midwife used to call me every day after the baby was born....some days all I could do was hyperventillate into the phone.....and she would say *alright..what has he done NOW*???? lol
Comments like.....*No cathy, I don`t think Mark is a COMPLETE a$$ hole*...or *nooooo I don`t think that right now is the time (just after the birth of our 7th child lol) to consider leaving him*....:) invariably she would get me laughing....if she couldn`t ...without me asking.....she would drive the hour and a half to my house make me a cup of soothing tea, and rub my back while I tearfully blurted out my woes....I didn`t know why I was so neurotic after my babies were born...I didn`t know why the germaphobia would set in and incapacitate me...I felt like I was hanging on to sanity by the skin of my teeth.
SHE was an awsome professional...no doubt skilled in recognizing the ppd ...that you mentioned.......She went way above and beyond the call of duty in caring for me.....I do not know what I would have done without her....she is also the one that badgered me (in a good way) to finally get the pap smear that detected my cervical cancer in time to get it treated.
A trained professional to spot the severe reactions from abuse....what a blessing verses the professional that unknowingly further traumatizes an already fragile patient.
Cat, I am so glad to have another piece of the puzzle...why my reactions were so strong, why my ppd might have been so severe. It really really helps to know that maybe it wasn`t all just insanity due to hormones being out of whack.
Lol ex..you are so gutsy :)
WG...I laughed so hard at your mom`s comment about the window washer...that my husband had to come see what was wrong....he belly laughed too for the longest time...we definatly can identify with your mothers comment :)
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rascal
Eyes, that was an awfully nice thing to say....thank you....as a matter of fact I have been referred to as *mama grizzly* a time or two because NOBODY messes with my cubs...lol
The picture of yoda by my name is because that is what my kids call me....they say that I am small...diminuative and harmless looking....but push the wrong buttons....mess with somebody in my presence ...and I am a force to be reckoned with...lol I guess that I am pretty intimidating when I finally get wound up....
The thing is...with others ....it is easy to be strong...to see the best in thm......but me...how I feel about me.....it`s like some of us were talking about a line from the movie pretty woman .... It`s easier to believe the lies....
I have no trouble standing up for others.....it is myself that I have difficulty seeing any good in.
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Eyesopen
Well then I guess those that love you will have to stand up for you until you can see what we see!
Just saying what I see...and I am glad that you stuck around 'cause I have learned quite a bit from you and hope to learn more.
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Catcup
Nope, she didn't go above and beyond the call of duty, believe it or not. That's what a good, caring, properly trained professional is supposed to do!
A properly skilled, educated, and licensed midwife is a darn good way to go. I hate to say it, but sometimes midwives have more training in the area we are discussing than the regular obgyns.
Unfortunately, many doctors won't do the "badgering." It is true that we need to take responsibility for being proactive about our own health care. The doctors therefore will put it out there as a reccommendation, but I have found that follow up is not necessarily a strong suit with some. Doctors do, especially working for huge hospitals, limit the time they spend with each patient. They must impart the info and move on. Many midwives are independent and can therefore take more time to tailor their care to the individual patient. Doctors sometimes cannot practice medicine the way they would like to because of the constraints put upon them by the huge corporations they work for.
Very, very true. That is why it is very important for nurses and other medical professionals to keep up with their continuing education units and get this extra training. That's why medicine is a practice. You have to keep doing it to be good at it, and you have to keep up with current information. Otherwise, you and your patients are left in the dark.
And by the way, yes, you did hit the jackpot with that midwife. She was right there on top of everything, just like she was supposed to be. Those people are absolutely golden.
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Scout Finch02
Amazing work, Catcup.
Have you seen any information on the the intergenerational effects of this? Do women who have been abused unintentionally pass this on to their daughters?
I have never been sexually abused, but I suspected my mother was (not by my father, possibly by her father). She passed away last year, so she can never tell us, but she had many characteristics of someone who had suffered serious long term sexual abuse. The emotions surrounding control you described feel creepily familiar in ways I cannot verbalize. I sense I "inherited" my fears from her based on her reactions and responses to events, conversations, etc.
Even though I love children and would have loved to have been a mother, the birth and delivery process seemed like something I could never allow. I skipped many years of annual physicals (even though I had good health insurance) because of those creepy feelings. Now I have a wonderful woman doc and get my exams every year.
Keep up your very important work. I hope you write a book someday. I will buy 4 copies - one for each of my mother's daughters. Only one sister managed to overcome the creepiness and had children later in life. They are young enough to be my grandchildren and I spoil them as if they were.
Thanks everyone for your honesty and courage.
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Catcup
There is information out there on this in the medical journals and probably in some of the books you can find at Borders on the subject. My advice would be take the time to peruse the aisle concerning women's issues and check the chapters. You may find some helpful information that way. The best way though would be go to your local library and look up the information in The new England Journal of Medicine, Social Science Review, or some of the Psychological Journals out there. They would have the most up to date and accurate information out there on the subject.
The old addage that "children learn what they live" is true is many aspects. Many things are passed on to our children unintentionally because our behavior, especially when very young, is the model for their own. The desire to "not rock the boat" and the desire to do anything to please a person, the inability to say no to people who make imposing requests, some of these cultural and social habits are picked up by children. And if not ever put in their proper context, send the wrong message.
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rascal
Damn it Cat I feel like you are smacking me in the head with a ball bat with every post you write....I`ll be DAMNED if you didn`t just describe me to a *T*
The desire to not rock the boat...the desire to do anything to please....inability to say no....hmmmmm
Ok....so I guess once recognising this as unhealthy behavior....we can stop.... how do we stop from passing this crap on to the kiddoes?
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Eyesopen
Alright this may sound like a strange comparison so bear with me...
In light of parents passing on their own "tauma reactions" to their children....
I have a cat (please don't roll your eyes) she is a darling of a cat. But her mother had been badly abused. I rescued her from a burlap sack that was going to be pitched into the river. Anyway momma cat is long since gone, but her daughter...my little Arora is still with me. She is by far the most skiddish cat that I have ever owned, with the exception of her mother. I understood why mom was so skiddish...she had been horribly abused and would only come to me and my niece. But Roar what was her problem? I have never harmed that cat...none of my cats. I was at a loss.
Then one day while observing her with a litter of kittens another person (my roommate) entered my bedroom where she had given birth. She immediately began to shuffle the kittens back under the bed. She was fanatical about it. I thought she was going to give herself a stroke it was that frantic. I even helped her but of course the kittens had tasted the "outside" world of the room and would not remain confined. Finally to save my poor cat the anurism that she was certainly driving herself towards and I told my roommie to leave the room. At which time she began to calm down.
But after that anytime that he would pass my room she would once again begin to panic. All the while talking to her children. Eventually the kittens began to recognize his step and would dart for cover at the sound. She had effectively passed on her phobia. The kittens needed special attention by me as they grew or they would have all been to traumatized to give away.
I don't dare get her fixed. She finds completion in having children in fact she would go absolutely nuts if she could no longer have them. But my other cat Marishka raises them for the most part so that the condition no longer continues. It's funny that my other cat noticed the problem and actually made Roar back away from the babies until they were old enough to "think" for themselves.
So I can see how a human mother could train her children "trauma response", without really having much of a true conscous thought about it. And also thinking that they are actually helping their children.
Was that too much of a stretch?
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Catcup
Sorry, Rascal, I don't mean to smack ya
Recognizing those behaviors are a problem is the first step.
Beginning to challenge and correct them in yourself is another.
Instill into your children a healthy dose of self esteem:
Show them how important it is to speak up if something is not right
Show them how it is important to stand up for what they know is right
Show them they have the right to deny a request that is not in their best interest or will harm someone else
Show them their opinions, concerns, and feelings matter to you
Show them that they have the power to make a difference in the world
From what I see kiddo, you're working on it pretty well.
BTW, Martial arts have enormous benefits in these areas.
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rascal
Lol..thanks Cat...I knew that I had these traits...I din`t understand why....I just thought I was nuts...doomed to a life of struggling to not let the anxiety and self esteem drag me under.
To recognise WHY I am this way...that I wasn`t born damaged...I don`t know how I can explain how freeing this is to me.
All I can say is thank you...thank you for being part of the healing and answeres....I can`t explain how timely that this is...I can only tell you that the information that you and others have presented on these threads...has dove tailed precisely into what I was being prepared for...can I say that I think that it was God??.
I can`t explain it...I can only hope that you get a glimpse of the good that has been accomplished of people being part of the hands and feet of God....in at least ONE life here.
Nope eyes..not a stretch...I get it...that is pretty close.
Agreed martial arts is really really good for removing the feelings of helplessness.
I`d love to tell a story about that...but isn`t applicable to this thread.
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Abigail
Very interesting observation, Eyes!
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Shifra
This thread sounds like the daily discussion in my waiting room. In the USA and most of the western world, the blessings and lessons of a wholesome birth experience has been robbed from women. I truly believe that if we could give birth in the way God intended, our entire value on life, and confidence in ourselves as females, and sense of "family", would change the path of the world. We midwives have a saying - "A peaceful Earth begins with Birth".
Am I too dramatic here? Well, this is what I do for a living. I've been delivering babies for 25 years ... in a different way than the OB-IV-mechanized-medicated-Csectioned-alienated method which rules modern maternity.
Yesterday, for example, there was a baby girl born at my little house. She still has no name because she is the fourth daughter for this family, and they are "plum out of names" (as the dad put it). I have attended the births of their other three girls as well, all of whom were present when this one entered the world yesterday. Mostly my clients have their babies in their own homes, but this family drove to my place in Montana, from Wyoming where midwives are illegal.
The whole family arrived with pillows and food and baby clothes and diapers, hoping for a boy of course, but grateful for whatever God would give them. One of my helpers made lasagna and salad for them, as the kids watched TV, and the parents set up their birthing room with flowers and music and a bright colored quilt. A good dinner during labor is so much nicer than an IV in your arm. The laboring mom washed the dishes, while the dad read a bedtime story to the three girls and tucked them into sleeping bags spread out on the floor. Baby's vitals were good as the contractions got stronger. The mom knew I would not do a vaginal exam until she asked for one. A few hours later, with broken water and some pretty powerful pains, she finally said "check me". Dilation was ten centimeters. She was sitting on the bed. Her husband sat behind her, leaning on the head of the bed, with his knees up on both sides of her, so she could brace herself to push. Soon we saw a little bit of the baby's head, beautiful dark hair. The dad asked me to pray (He knew from experience that I do this just before each baby comes out). I prayed for a wiggle-y pink baby, and for the mother's strength. At the word, "Amen", the mom began to cry, and then gave one more push. The infant presented with one little hand pressed over an ear, as though she were greeting us all with a wave of "hello". Everything was quiet except for some soft music and the squeal of the 4-year-old "big" sister who stood by the bed. My apprentice said "Welcome, baby", and I said "God bless you, child". The dad said, "It's another pretty girl", and then he cut the cord. We wrapped the baby, and gave her to the oldest sister (age 6) to hold while the mom squatted on the floor to expel the placenta. The 2-year-old watched wide-eyed, and asked, "Is there another baby, mommy?" We all laughed, and then the whole family snuggled up on the bed, under their own quilt, to make phone calls to the grandparents.
This mom believes fully in herself as a strong woman and a good mother. This dad honors his wife's power, and cherishes his four home-born daughters. These girls are not afraid of their own female bodies, and they see childbirth as a fun day like Christmas when a woman works really hard and then everyone gets a gift in the end. Fear is not a part of this. It's all about LIFE.
Who took this joy away from American women? Take a guess. Religion. Christianity. Remember the witch trials? Those were the midwives. They were said to be "of the devil". When I was in TWI, I sensed this same judgment on myself from the leaders there. Now, please understand, I am not a man-hater or a political feminist. But I believe that the religious (male) leaders a couple of centuries ago realized the power and honor held by the midwives, and were compelled to destroy it. Birth is almost synonymous with the word, "miracle". Power in birthing is undeniable. That's about the time in history when men pirated the role of the midwives, and soon the laboring women were removed from their homes, and sent to hospitals, where males - who will never experience birth themselves - took over. But they didn't get it, they couldn't comprehend the resulting satisfaction and self esteem that women end up with, once they've birthed a baby. So they drugged us and cut us and infected us, and destroyed the God-given life's-passage, which is childbirth. Today one out of every three babies in our country is "born" by surgery, because "we can't do it by ourselves - poor us". And who gets the glory? Not God. Not the mother.
Birth belongs at home. To go to the hospital for birth is like to go to the hospital for love-making. It is NOT medical. It is NOT technical. It is passion and spirit and awesome and holy. I'm sorry that so many of us have been ripped off and fooled. This is a big deal to me. I've pretty much given my life to this purpose.
Thanks, Catcup, for an opportunity to speak my peace. And for some nice photos, you can check out my website: www.mountainmidwives.com
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Watered Garden
Shifra said:
" To go to the hospital for birth is like to go to the hospital for love-making. "
I think that's a GSC classic!
I have known this in myself for some time, but have only this moment verbalized it. As badly as we wanted a child, I know that I was so absolutely terrified of the birth process that I just couldn't retain a pregnancy. Never made it past the second missed cycle. There were a few medical problems that were taken care of by surgery, but the real cause of infertility was my fear of submitting a less than perfect performance as I gave birth.
The other factor was living in a small university town in Ohio, where midwives AND THEIR PATIENTS were actually persecuted. This has happened in many states. I remember one woman who in fact I think lived in Ohio at the time who chose home birth. There were complications, she was taken to the local ER and made to wait (she couldn't deliver the placenta) an inordinate amount of time once she revealed the home birth.
I suspect the real reason allopaths etc don't like home birth is economic.
WG
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Bramble
Kind of on the topic--I had c sections, and years later I had two hernia surgeries related to the c sections. One was a surgery that involved a very long incision, the other was much smaller.
I now have a mesh in my gut which will make any further surgery ever needed in that area much more complicated--wasn't real thrilled about that, but it was that or more hernias down the road, since I seem to make weak scars.
My doctor wondered if, as the c section population grows and ages, whether there will be more hernia surgeries.
Hernias= not fun.
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Catcup
THAT is the way birth is supposed to be.
THAT is the way the family should be.
THAT is exactly how the woman's power over her own birth and her authorioty over her own body was robbed in America.
I agree. We need more women like you. It's nice to see one of the Golden people here at the cafe.
You're very welcome. Awsome website, Shifra! Great work!
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wrdsandwrks
Great stuff, Shifra. It made me cry. So glad your're out there doing what you do.
I really wanted to have home births for my two children but the insurance only the covered Dr/hospital route so I went along with it because of financial considerations.
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TheEvan
Shifra, that was a beautiful and powerful post. Thanks for the inspiration. It brought tears to my eyes.
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waysider
Oh had I a golden thread
And a needle so fine
I'd weave a magic strand
Of rainbow design
In it, I'd weave the bravery
Of women giving birth
In it, I'd weave the innocence
Of children all over the Earth.--------------Pete Seeger
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Shifra
Thank you. I just got home from another birth. This one is a sweet little boy, born way out in the country. God has surely blessed me with this work.
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