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lindyhopper

How hard would it be for you to leave, right now?

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I have family in, as some of you know, and I think at times they want to leave. It's just a guess though.

How hard would it be for you to be Johny Jump Out?

Even with a spouse or relatives in.

What would it take?

Why not now?

How hard would it be, or was it for you?

What would be the price you'd pay?

What would be the last straw?

insurgent, troubled wine, wayward, I would especially like your thoughts.

Lindy

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I recently left, but I don't have family in. I have a boyfriend in. We have had a lot of conflict because of it.

I remember a past post of someone mentioning a possibility that some innies want to leave but don't because of family members. In the same light, those family memebers want to leave but don't because of family also. Maybe some family should just communicate how they really feel. It might spark some great things for them all. It would be quite ironic if everyone wanted to leave but didn't because of each other. It doesn't hurt to just mention your curiosities.

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Lindy,

this is a very brief answer to your question as I am pressed for time, but if it sparks any other questions, please feel free to ask away. (I'll tell as much as I can without sacrificing my family to the WAYGB)

I will tell you that my spouse knows that I do not wish to attend TWI functions and that I disagree with many, many things (policies, leadership styles, doctrines, etc). My spouse also knows that I would leave tomorrow and I would love for our whole family to leave the organiztion. I participate as little as possible to keep suspicion off of me/us. Not one person in twi suspects how I feel.

My spouse does not see things the same way I do and pleaded with me to not leave twi and put that kind of burden on our relationship. (My spouse, I think, deep down knows it's an abusive organization. My spouse knows first-hand that they have been very, very abusive in the past to individuals.) Because of this pleading and since both of us know (but one won't admit it) that twi will stop at nothing to break up our marriage and our family if I were to leave, I have decided to stay.

I truly believe that my spouse is looking for reasons to leave but struggling with the "justification" issues and fear that so many innies deal with. They know something's terribly wrong, but they see the good and it's really hard to reconcile the two. If I can build enough of a case on the abuse, wrong doctrine and hypocracy I can get my entire family out. I think that's what they are waiting for.

I've started on my case, but it's in spurts. One, to not draw attention to my dissension and two, to not overwhelm my family and three, I just don't have the time to dig into the errors like I would prefer.

Offering info from GSpot is not an option. It would provide no strength to my case. It has to be first hand, current abuse and it has to be doctrinal errors. There's plenty of this right here, but, with using information from the internet will not provide any support because of the ingrained devilishness teachings of twi.

It appears as though my short answer isn't so short after all. icon_rolleyes.gif:rolleyes:-->

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I did chuckle when you said it would be short, as I looked at the paragraphs you wrote. icon_biggrin.gif:D-->

I have respect for you and your decision. I don't think I could leave either if my spouce didn't want to.

This is the concern I have with one of my siblings. I think at times that his eyes betray his twi loyalty, but I know his spouce would probably never leave. Nor do I think he would ever bring it up to her. Of course this is all speculation on my part.

When I look at my parents I see that both of them don't seem happy. Actaully, right now I see the one that I would have thought would never want to leave as the one that may have the greater yearning for freedom.

At this point I don't think me bringing up controversial topics about twi or religion would be a good idea right now. Since my marriage and now our baby-to-be, things between us all have gotten a lot better.

Hopefully, I will serve as an example to them of a happy, successful, healthy escapee, without grease spots (check my undies).

It is nice to see that someone honors their commitment to their spouce more than any other commitment.

Thanks

Lindy

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quote:
Hopefully, I will serve as an example to them of a happy, successful, healthy escapee, without grease spots (check my undies).

Lindy, ewwww...... I always thought the grease spots were on the road, not in your shorts. icon_eek.gif

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After reading the Subtle Power of Spiritual Abuse book and particularly thinking about the last few chapters about how or when to make a break or stay for awhile to make a difference I decided not to be hasty and make an emotional decision. Not because emotions are wrong or anything like that but just because I wanted to do what I could to help (if that were even possible) and give myself time to process my options.

By staying in for a little while now, i have been able to listen to their teachings for once and actually be objective (like VPW said to be from day one btw) and was surpised at how milky they really were.

As far as it being hard to leave; it depends on your ties I guess. I have a family so that is part of the consideration.

My course of direction was to look at the doctrine. At first I approached it from a let's prove them wrong on one point but Goey advised me to just approach studying from a neutral point of view and then I would be able to see both sides and letthe research do the talking. That has been helpful. Part of the twisted scriptures thread I started is just some of the things they have taught that i noticed on this little quest. I am entertaining writing a research paper on my findings or at least a good thread.

Perhaps I am overly concerned about what some way believers may say about me or what not but I refuse to be labeled a heretic or possesed or let them push me into saying "i don't want the word anymore" -- this is their tactic so that they can wash their hands of you. I prefer to either just leave quietly or with a quiet discussion where I expose the biblical blindness on certain key issues.

But I frankly could care less about writing the "bod" about my "concerns". TWI has had 70 years now to clarify certain doctrines and they HAVE NOT DONE IT. What fool would actually think he could write them a research paper that they would give them credit for and implement??? Look what happened to hope and john and napklinlady and MANY MANY OTHERS.

I do care about people I have known for all these years and i would prefer to handle myself wisely to at least give myself an opportunity to discuss certain issues. Not with leadership (check out theemerson quotes about the paid preacher) mind you but with my friends.

I don't think I will put this off for long though. I already have no interest in their teaching direction of collateral rehash. My spouse has been giving them every opportunity to make a positive impact but they are coming up empty.

I guess, i am trying to proceed to the nearest emergency exit in a calm an orderly manner...

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Welcome, Mr. Thomas Crown.

I think I can speak for the majority of us here, we certianly would be interested to hear your thoughts and ideas regarding exiting the ministry.

It seems that there are a few here that are in a precarious situation with families intrests in mind or whatever makes the situation so delicate and any input will be welcome.

Having been out for about 10 years I am not up on the latest info about twi, but we still share the common experience of being in twi.

Congratulations on taking the step of actually posting here, I know it took guts. Feel free to express what you think and feel here, doing so will help you make an informed decision at the right time.

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Wecome Mr Thomas Crown!!!!!!!!

Like many of us here, it wasn't such an easy decision to leave TWI.

But I'm certainly glad I did!

Honestly I'm glad I got invoved in TWI, I learned a lot, but I'm glad I'm out now.

I consider my TWI experience a stepping stone in spritual growth.

Today I can see why many consider TWI a cult, I can see where I made mistakes while in, but by God's grace and mercy I'm free from the way Intl. and today follow the way Jesus Christ.

I look forward to your questions, thoughts and inquiries. If there's any way I can help you just let me know. God Bless.

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Welcome Mr. Crown!!

Could I buy you a latte or do you prefer expresso?

The memo was not read in our area either and many people do not know about the memo except through conversations with others.

Please post on.

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I never heard about this memo either. I didn't even hear that the ministry's position on debt changed either. I think what you hear depends on what area you are in (like-minded my @$$!!). I left in December 2002, maybe I missed this. Although I do know someone who asked their FC about the policy on debt, and they were told there never was a policy on debt (liar, liar, pants on fire).

TWI thinks that people don't talk. At the ACS, that's all people did--compared notes. Maybe more will start smartening up to realize that there is something stinking in NK, and it might be Rozi.

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Ive been out for 2 years.

I cannot tell you how so very wrong the twisted doctrine is that is taught in the way..I think the responsibilities have to fall on the heart who his searching for truth, even those who are in are doing alot of heart searching..It takes guts to face what Truth is.Its takes Stamina to rightly cut the doctrines.Ive been fighting this stuff in my own life..

One question to those still in..

What defines Gods love and what is light. Your discerning heart for Truth is the only thing that will cause you to stop the subtle abuse. I never knew about these websites while I was in...I cried when I found this place..I WAS SO LIED TO...I still see healing, signs, miracles and Wonders.....

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Mr. Thomas,

You have brought up the question that delves into the area I just can't seem to stay away from. Debt.

We too asked about debt in Sept of 2001. We were given permission to get a mortgage. I didn't understand how my BC could give me permission to sin. That is when I was first told that debt is not sin. I was amazed and suggested that all of twi should hear that statement because that is not what had been taught.

We then asked for a definition of debt so we could tell for ourselves what method of buying a house or car or anything else would be considered not debt.

We were told debt is anything you owe. We pointed out that we owe God our very lives and we owe the tithe according to CSBP. Then we were told that anything you owe financially is debt and anything you owe spiritually is not debt and is ok.

We went home and discussed this new standard to see if we could apply it to the Word and our lives and have it fit adn work. Our son was quick to point out the hole in the logic. "What about way corps sponsership?" he asked. "That is both!".

So we were back to square one. We looked in the Bible for ourselves. We looked at every outside biblical resource we could find and they all equate debt with sin. So we applied a point of logic and said, "If sin equals debt then debt must equal sin." By turning it around, we could see God's heart on the subject.

Sin is not taking on an obligation. If so marriage is sin. Sin is not fulfilling your obligation. Since sin = debt, then, debt is not taking on an obligation. Taking on an obligation is fine. Debt is not fulfilling your obligation.

A lawyer once asked us why our ministry would allow us to rent someone else's house if they were against debt. We explained that rent is payment for the use of someone else's asset. It is ok to pay for the use of something. (That is how our BC had explained it to us).

He said, "Then what is wrong with a mortgage? All you are doing is paying someone for the use of their money? What difference does it make to God whether what you use is a house, water, electricity or money?"

Oh there is so much more. TWI's level of evil in the financial category is HUGE! This subject makes me so mad at what they have done to God's people!

btw the rest of our research is at

http://www.waychrist.com/featured_writers/debt.htm

Napkinlady

Fold TWI, Fold!

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Why doesn't twi have these "debt policies" in writing? Why doesn't twi state their shifting stance on debt on a Sunday teaching tape? Why are things read at a hh fellowship?

Could it be.......twi DOES NOT want to be held to a standard that would clearly point to their shifting in policies?

Twi TAUGHT and TEACHES wrong doctrine!! They attempt to conceal this wrong doctrine with more lies and cover-up.

How much more obvious can it be??? icon_biggrin.gif:D-->

Fresh

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[This message was edited by Mr. Thomas Crown on February 28, 2003 at 10:10.]

[This message was edited by Mr. Thomas Crown on February 28, 2003 at 10:10.]

[This message was edited by Mr. Thomas Crown on August 07, 2003 at 10:46.]

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[This message was edited by Mr. Thomas Crown on February 28, 2003 at 10:19.]

[This message was edited by Mr. Thomas Crown on February 28, 2003 at 10:19.]

[This message was edited by Mr. Thomas Crown on August 07, 2003 at 10:46.]

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Mr Crown,

Welcome and thank you for sharing your insights.

I have been out since 90. Many of the things that twi has done (and continues to do) is mind boggeling.

It is amazing what you discover when you start thinking for yourself and/or actually see what Gods word actually says about a subject. Instead of the word of someone else.

IMO, if you need advice concerning debt. Find a CERTIFIED financial advisor. There are trained and certified professionals that can help people with most problems.

twi has never trained anybody in areas of personnal finances, marriage, child raising etc...

If someone in twi offers advice, ask to see there certification. If they do not hold certification, their advice is most likely not worth the time to listen to it.

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Thomas Crown,

Thank you for sharing your thoughts here. Very enlighteing.

Let me address one minor thing.

quote:
Note: Recently our area was informed that we can no longer take collections of various types of $ (i.e. fellowship fund for cards, flowers, etc.) as a result of TWI being non-profit. Evidently, things like this could be looked at as paying "Dues" to the ministry which is of course not allowed for a no-profit organization. Also there were grumblings from within the ministry that many times people felt they had to contribute to these "funds" or be looked down upon.

This is really very stupid. If the fellowship takes place at someone's private home, and TWI is not footing the bills there, then technically, TWI has no official corporate presence there. (Also they have no authority to tell folks what to do - it is not their property.) For example, if someone got hurt at TWI fellowship in a private home, TWI would most likely have no liability in the matter but the the homeowner might.

Only if a corporate representative of TWI oficially collects the money in the form of ABS or the money goes through TWI's corporate accounts would this be an issue at all.

A fellowship meeting taking place in a private home where TWI does not pay rent or own the property is not an extension of the corporation.

It could not possibly be considered paying dues unless it was required in order to receive a certain tangible benefit and if the money went to the corporation prior to being distributed.

Non-profit corporations are indeed allowed to collect dues. But they have to record these dues collections in the books. By collecting dues, it would then have members. Dues paying members must be allowed to review the corporate books. - Which TWI would not allow. TWI is simply afraid that they may have to open their books.

However, after a home fellowship there is nothing to prevent folks from taking up a voluntary collection for flowers or cards as long as it is not sponsored or required by the corporation. The TWI coporation has no authority in a private home to tell folks what they can or cannot do.

Goey

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Crown:

Thanks for your contributions to this thread. Much of it as been discussed in bits and pieces by other "innies" who post here, but you have distilled current doctrines and practices down nicely.

Even though the face melting abuses of the past seem to have died down, the error that supported them still remains.

Oakspear icon_cool.gif

"We...know how cruel the truth often is, and we wonder whether delusion is not more consoling"

Henri Poincare

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I find it hard to believe that twi could possibly be encouraging anyone to read "Christians Should Be Prosperous".

That booklet blows their stance on debt completely out of the water.

If CSBP is true, then every person in twi who collects a salary or wages of any kind is in debt.

See page 19

"You haven't given anything to God until after you have first paid what you owe Him. God says that one-tenth is a debt we owe and it is the most sacred of them all. After you have paid your honest debt to God, then whatever you give is true giving..."

Also on page 19

"I am in debt. Should I pay my honest debt first before I start giving my tithe?"

"Which is your most honest debt? It is your debt to God. Pay it first and you will find that your other debts will be easier to pay. Nine-tenths with God's blessing will go further than ten-tenths without God's blessing.

also on page 10

"Liberal in what? Paying only a portion of your debt to God? You oweHim the tithe."

How are they going to reconcile this teaching with the no-debt condition to taking the advanced class?

Interesting the next section answers the question about how one can pay a tithe to God and the author answers that you can't but you can give to men. I wonder how that fits in with owe no man anything if we owe the tithe?

No logic, no reason, no truth.

Napkinlady

Fold TWI, Fold!

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Thomas Crown - please come back with more of your insight!

You've hit so many of the valid questions most people who are still in TWI have - but might be afraid to ask.

I hope you continue to ask questions, but I doubt you will ever get a straight answer.

Hope R. color>size>face>

I get by with a little help from my friends... size>

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