I am glad that I bothered to argue this point here on "forgiveness". I have received numerous pms, mostly from women and a couple of guys who have been blessed to hear my point of view on the subject. They won't post on the subject though, because they are afraid of being jumped by Rascal and others. So, I don't mind being argued with if the fruit of the argument results in people learning that it is okay to forgive and move on. You see, the contrast that they see is very glaring, and helps them to see that compassion, love, and forgiveness, is the preferable High Road to deliverance. They also see that forgiveness is not synonymous with "excusing the wrong doers and giving them a pass". So to me, it was worth the time spent here on this thread...
I haven`t *jumped* anybody Jonny, that is silly. I have simply discussed an opposing point of view. (Please prepare for sarcasm and nastiness NOW :) ) I understand, I get it now .... that to oppose Jonny Lingos beliefs, equals being *jumped on* . Please forgive me. Goodness, how strong and noble to have the courage to stand up and fight the battle against the oh so evil rascal and greasespotters who dare to express something not sanctified by twi...I stand in awe of you, and bow down to your superiority oh great one.
I realize now how little pats on the back in private messages from anonymous posters lacking the courage and moral conviction to speak for themselves are sometimes all that is needed to make one feel sanctimonious and right. Why be bothered to honestly discuss and consider an opposing view point?
We all know from the example set by our leaders in twi that as long as folks stroke the ego sufficiently, as long as we have people to agree with every pontification, that is always a sure sign proving ones worthiness, Godlines, and rightiousness :) (end of sarcasm :) )
Seriously sometimes it is really really tough to re examine what we believe, and why we believe it. It takes real courage. It is much easier to go with the flow and tell people what they want to hear.
Seriously sometimes it is really really tough to re examine what we believe, and why we believe it. It takes real courage. It is much easier to go with the flow and tell people what they want to hear.
It seems to me that Jonny hasn't told you what you want to hear, just what he feels you need to hear. He has tried to give you a scriptural basis for his beliefs, for which you called him sanctimonious and self-righteous. That may not be "jumping on" him, but it's not a fair rejoinder, either. I agree with him that you should forgive. (Note that I DIDN'T say "forget" or "not warn others of the danger.") You choose not to. S'okay by me. We'll agree on some things, disagree on others.
George, I don`t think the problem here is Jonny`s beliefs. The problem is when folks insist that anybody who DOESN`T subscribe to their beliefs is evil or wrong.
There has been quite a lot of scripture posted supporting both sides of the issue. People are free to chose one way or the other.
No not wimpiness Dooj....and even if I don`t get it...shoot, that in no way means that I think that your point lacks value or merit. It just means that I don`t understand...yet :)
Like I said...I have no problem with people expressing their view. I DO have a problem when they point their finger and say that if you don`t subscribe to it, you are wrong or evil. I DO have a problem when they apply a few scriptures, while ignoring others to add legitimacy... God`s stamp of approval per say to their pov.
We saw enough deceitful use of scriptures in twi to know better.
We're exway here. We all remember how shocking anything that wasn't like minded with TWI doctrine was, especially if it came out of a believer's mouth. Conflict of any sort is BAD, conformity to the one true doctrine is GOOD and to be expected. Anything not pleasing, positive and a witness to the greatness of the one true word/ministry was like an insult to God, open door to devil spirits etc.
Negative people were possessed.
We should be surprised that there are those in the exway community still hold to that type of thinking? That they should see Greasepotters who no longer believe TWI doctrine as given by the great mog VPW in a negative light, as spiritually dangerous, slurring the greatest truth since the first century truth with lies and negatives?
I guess I haven't been out as long as some of you. It is still very clear in my memory.
George, I don`t think the problem here is Jonny`s beliefs. The problem is when folks insist that anybody who DOESN`T subscribe to their beliefs is evil or wrong.
There has been quite a lot of scripture posted supporting both sides of the issue. People are free to chose one way or the other.
That's one of the biggest questions today people have concerning Christianity, i.e. Don't I get to determine what's right for me? The newspapers and TV bombard our sensibilities as we witness more and more corruption and vice going on in the world. Now we have people bombarding us with the sins of Church leaders, both past, present, and even dead ones. We are constantly being bombarded with these messages, but now we are hearing a completely conflicting message - (remarkably by one who has bomarded people with their personal message of corruption and vice in TWI) PEOPLE ARE FREE TO CHOSE ONE WAY OR THE OTHER. That's the message now - the message of moral relativism (that nothing is absolutely right or wrong - it just depends on the situation) that no one has the right to say what is morally wrong, bad or evil.
The bible certainly teaches us that there are moral absolutes - things that are always right and wrong no matter what. Now maybe there are people who want to defend the worst crimes, but even basic common sense tells us that murder, rape, adultry, theft, fraud and similar crimes are always wrong. But the question for most people is: Who defines morality? If there were no God, then each of us would be the highest form of life. Being the highest form of life then we have the right to determine for ourselves our own morality. On the otherhand, if God exists, then the definition of morality belongs to Him, not to us.
For example, God did not tell us not to murder just because He wanted to make up some arbitrary rule. The reason He told us not to murder is because He is the giver of life and He would never take the life of an innocent person. Likewise God is truthful and honest, and therefore He requires us to be honest and truthful ourselves. Isn't it remarkable how few people are offended when we demand that they don't commit murder but are horribly offended when we require them to be truthful and honest. I know what most of you are probably thinking - "at least I haven't killed anybody". But how many people can truly say that we have never hated someone, or destroyed someone's reputation with our words, or have never been jealous or envious of someone? Yet these words and actions springing from our selfishness are just as murderous, "as is the act of taking someone's life" as they fall far short from the love of God that He expects us to exhibit.
I believe some people have totally gotten the wrong idea - that some people are here just to justify the sins of a dead minister or some other TWI leader. They claim "some people" are here just to "shut the victims up" but the truth is, "these victims" are very outspoken! No. Don't be fooled. They flaunt and parade their morality over others, and that's the reason they won't "shut up" and are very outspoken. They use "Christian morality" as their springboard to justify themselves, all the while condeming and crushing others they don't like in order to get rid of them or simply wish would 'go away'. They want you to forget all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God (Romans 3:22). Jesus Christ was a very morale person, but is that how he used morality - to condemn and crush others - to prove to everyone: JUST HOW GREAT AND WONDERFUL A REAL MORAL CHRISTIAN GUY HE WAS?
Now maybe that is the jesus some people want to follow - but not me. Oh, don't misunderstand. My Christ was indeed a moral guy, but he used his morality to lift others up out of the muck and the mire they got themselves into - not crush them and push them down further in it! Of course, when it comes to Jesus Christ, you are completely free to chose one or the other.
There is no one definitive Christian doctrine. Aren't there about 100,000 different Christian doctrines? Or more?
Everybody chooses. Why would someone choose to believe a doctrine they are uncomfortable with --because others tell them they must? Usually there is some type of negative cosequence for choosing wrong.
Some just choose differently than you did. Which human is smart enough to figure out which Christian doctrine is best for all Christians? Which one is really THE truth?
Does your God have consequences for the believers that pick the wrong one??
Well WTH, you don`t have to take *my* word for it... the bible gave one sure fire way to tell :) Fruit!!! No kidding! Not speaking in tongues, not research ability, not teaching, not witnessing, tithing...all those things so venerated in twi...but fruit of the spirit. Joy,peace, meekness, longsuffering, love :)
Jesus said we would know and identify one another by the fruit we manifest.
According to scriptures...twi leaders certainly couldn`t pass examination. The fruit of our leaders lives define them as *of the flesh* and as galatians says *without inheritance in the kingdom of God*
Bramble, I think that right there is the consequences of chosing wrongly. Had we known to look for that *fruit* and understood it`s significance, we might have known much earlier how far out of whack twi leaders were.
I personally don`t think that these men ever even WERE christian, according to the biblical definition. I don`t know that people who follow their teachings are today. Whether Christianity is the one real religion or whatever, I think it unfair to judge the earnest, genuine christians, whom actually walk the talk, by these pretenders whom simply wore/wear the label but ignored every basic tenant for the practice of this faith.
There is a reason that wierwille steered us away from those verses and even today people trying to dismiss their sinificance and importance. They don`t like what the bible says about the actions of their leaders, so if they can just shut us up, with demands of forgivnes, to be followed by the required silence, of having forgiven,one can safely return to the illusion of spirituality and Godliness of our twi induced perceptions.
I think I asked you something like this before, but it stands to be asked again:
Just exactly HOW do you examine the fruit in someone else's life to judge it's absence or presence, and how much is there?
When you do measure the fruit in someone else's life, what instrument do you use, and where do you get it calibrated? Also, what's the best brand to buy, and approximately how much does it cost? I'm also interested in what units it's measured in? Like inches, feet and yards are units of measure for distance, but in what units do you measure someone else's joy or peace or meekness or longsuffering or love?
And also, (I'M just dying to know) do have any fruit files on anyone else besides VPW? ...like especially anyone here?
You know that if you read galatians 5 mike, it says it al right there....honest.
It tells exactly what the fruit are in a man of the flesh..and exactly what the fruit of a man of the spirit are. That fruit is manifest because of what we are on the inside.
I know that you venerate wierwille....but that passage tells precisely who and what a drunken fornicating, adulterer is...with no wiggle room. It also says he has no inheritance in the kingdom of God (what ever THAT means)
Fruit of the spirit isn`t what you`d think either from what we were taught...it isn`t speaking in tongues or being researchers, or witnessing, or tithing, or how many we bring to fellowship, in short, all of the things that twi measured spirituality by. Those things are works, and never even made the list.
And no, I don`t keep files on anybody here, thats pretty stupid....What folks do is their business. I do speak of what I have seen, and what I have heard concerning the evil practiced in twi by these people...and how this has impacted my life.
How much time have you put into I Corinthians 3 as it relates to these matters in Galatians? There's quite a long passage there from verse 5 to verse 17.
We were taught to use ALL of the scriptures that relate. How many of the others besides Galatians do you use? If you have not extensively worked this area in Corinthians ALONG WITH Galatians, then you only have part of the story to begin with, let alone what you end up with.
If you can't look at I Cor. 3:17 and feel safe, then this is uncharted seas for you and we have a lot of work to do.
Just to test everyone's acumen here, how is this a warm and soothing verse? "If any man defile the temple of God, him shall God destroy; for the temple of God is holy, which temple ye are."
Really, rascal, if you can show me why this is a warm and soothing verse, then I'll know you worked the preceding verses in conjunction with what you preach on Galatians.
It REALLY IS a warm and soothing verse, HONEST. I can show you how if you want to see it. There's a little translation problem.
***
I look at the fruit IN MY OWN LIFE that resulted from the teaching I received (and still receive) from VPW and I know that the teaching is from God by that fruit I see IN MY OWN LIFE.
I can’t look into your life and see your fruit at all. It’s in your heart and it’s not visible to me. God made it pretty private, didn’t He? Same for VPW’s fruit. I can’t look at that private fruit either, but I can look at his teaching and the fruit IN MY OWN LIFE and be very thankful to God. I can look a your teaching, and I can say “No thanks.”
I look to Galatians to understand more about MY OWN LIFE, not someone else's. I learn about the fruit IN MY OWN LIFE there and I learn about sin IN MY OWN LIFE there. I don't go there so much to study others' lives. That's too private a thing to see clearly.
***
We all got some things wrong in twi, and we all suffered some things, but I know we can look at the good we got and see good fruit again result from it. If we choose to look at the bad forever we’ll feel badly forever about it.
But there WAS good that happened, and we owe it to each other to remind us of that. Those who continually insist on being resentful and negative in the face of growing and abounding good will reap negative fruit.aWe who are Jesus Christ men and women can look to the best that happened to us and we can learn to forgive.
The Christ in us yearns to love supernaturally above and beyond reason.
No, my post was completely in response to you, friend.
Sometimes I wonder if all this "Battle of the Scriptures" really gets anyone anywhere...
I've watched this thread for a while now. I've seen good arguments made on both sides - using scripture.
Isn't it possible - just possible - that life isn't as black and white as we were lead to believe? Perhaps there are bigger answers out there that involve tolerance and understanding of the other person.... Meeting a person where they're at and allowing them to be who and what they are while you are who and what you are....
Maybe the best change comes naturally....and not with a lot of striving and contention.
Just thinking - hence all the "maybe."
You know Dooj, As long as folks insist on proclaiming their personal beliefs and desires as God`s will, and insist that others comply, complete with scriptural gymnastics to lend legitimacy to their argument...shrug then I guess that there is going to be a problem.
Most of us have moved on beyond being manipulated and bullied into obedience and silence
Mike, I kind of figured that you weren`t really interested in my perspective. I know that you are a whiz at ignoring that which doesn`t support your pet theories. I know that you can come up with reams of scriptures as to why it is ok to ignore galatians, or any other scripture that doesn`t support your premiss. I am not interested, because I have read it all before.
Dove, suit yourself. If you don`t want to read what I wrote to you, and insist on applying it to someone else...Why bother to read my posts at all? Why just read them to try to twist them into saying something that I am not?
19Now the doings (practices) of the flesh are clear (obvious): they are
: immorality, I believe this applies to wiewille
:impurity, Absolutely...
:indecency...ditto
20Idolatry, sorcery, enmity, strife, jealousy, anger (ill temper), selfishness, divisions (dissensions), party spirit (factions, sects with peculiar opinions, heresies),
21Envy, drunkenness, carousing, and the like. I warn you beforehand, just as I did previously, that those who do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.
Ham, this is where the doctrine, the knowledge of twi led us. All of the focus on speaking in tongues, on knowledge of the scriptures, on operation of principles, the application of immutable laws, the perfectly in order physicals.
If galatians is to be believed, I think that wierwille missed the boat spiritually and led a lot of people down the toilet with him.
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J0nny Ling0
I am glad that I bothered to argue this point here on "forgiveness". I have received numerous pms, mostly from women and a couple of guys who have been blessed to hear my point of view on the subject. They won't post on the subject though, because they are afraid of being jumped by Rascal and others. So, I don't mind being argued with if the fruit of the argument results in people learning that it is okay to forgive and move on. You see, the contrast that they see is very glaring, and helps them to see that compassion, love, and forgiveness, is the preferable High Road to deliverance. They also see that forgiveness is not synonymous with "excusing the wrong doers and giving them a pass". So to me, it was worth the time spent here on this thread...
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rascal
I haven`t *jumped* anybody Jonny, that is silly. I have simply discussed an opposing point of view. (Please prepare for sarcasm and nastiness NOW :) ) I understand, I get it now .... that to oppose Jonny Lingos beliefs, equals being *jumped on* . Please forgive me. Goodness, how strong and noble to have the courage to stand up and fight the battle against the oh so evil rascal and greasespotters who dare to express something not sanctified by twi...I stand in awe of you, and bow down to your superiority oh great one.
I realize now how little pats on the back in private messages from anonymous posters lacking the courage and moral conviction to speak for themselves are sometimes all that is needed to make one feel sanctimonious and right. Why be bothered to honestly discuss and consider an opposing view point?
We all know from the example set by our leaders in twi that as long as folks stroke the ego sufficiently, as long as we have people to agree with every pontification, that is always a sure sign proving ones worthiness, Godlines, and rightiousness :) (end of sarcasm :) )
Seriously sometimes it is really really tough to re examine what we believe, and why we believe it. It takes real courage. It is much easier to go with the flow and tell people what they want to hear.
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GeorgeStGeorge
It seems to me that Jonny hasn't told you what you want to hear, just what he feels you need to hear. He has tried to give you a scriptural basis for his beliefs, for which you called him sanctimonious and self-righteous. That may not be "jumping on" him, but it's not a fair rejoinder, either. I agree with him that you should forgive. (Note that I DIDN'T say "forget" or "not warn others of the danger.") You choose not to. S'okay by me. We'll agree on some things, disagree on others.
George
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rascal
George, I don`t think the problem here is Jonny`s beliefs. The problem is when folks insist that anybody who DOESN`T subscribe to their beliefs is evil or wrong.
There has been quite a lot of scripture posted supporting both sides of the issue. People are free to chose one way or the other.
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rascal
No not wimpiness Dooj....and even if I don`t get it...shoot, that in no way means that I think that your point lacks value or merit. It just means that I don`t understand...yet :)
Like I said...I have no problem with people expressing their view. I DO have a problem when they point their finger and say that if you don`t subscribe to it, you are wrong or evil. I DO have a problem when they apply a few scriptures, while ignoring others to add legitimacy... God`s stamp of approval per say to their pov.
We saw enough deceitful use of scriptures in twi to know better.
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Bramble
We're exway here. We all remember how shocking anything that wasn't like minded with TWI doctrine was, especially if it came out of a believer's mouth. Conflict of any sort is BAD, conformity to the one true doctrine is GOOD and to be expected. Anything not pleasing, positive and a witness to the greatness of the one true word/ministry was like an insult to God, open door to devil spirits etc.
Negative people were possessed.
We should be surprised that there are those in the exway community still hold to that type of thinking? That they should see Greasepotters who no longer believe TWI doctrine as given by the great mog VPW in a negative light, as spiritually dangerous, slurring the greatest truth since the first century truth with lies and negatives?
I guess I haven't been out as long as some of you. It is still very clear in my memory.
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rascal
Good point Bramble. I guess I don`t need to take things so darned seriously....lol
Y`all have a great night :)
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What The Hey
That's one of the biggest questions today people have concerning Christianity, i.e. Don't I get to determine what's right for me? The newspapers and TV bombard our sensibilities as we witness more and more corruption and vice going on in the world. Now we have people bombarding us with the sins of Church leaders, both past, present, and even dead ones. We are constantly being bombarded with these messages, but now we are hearing a completely conflicting message - (remarkably by one who has bomarded people with their personal message of corruption and vice in TWI) PEOPLE ARE FREE TO CHOSE ONE WAY OR THE OTHER. That's the message now - the message of moral relativism (that nothing is absolutely right or wrong - it just depends on the situation) that no one has the right to say what is morally wrong, bad or evil.
The bible certainly teaches us that there are moral absolutes - things that are always right and wrong no matter what. Now maybe there are people who want to defend the worst crimes, but even basic common sense tells us that murder, rape, adultry, theft, fraud and similar crimes are always wrong. But the question for most people is: Who defines morality? If there were no God, then each of us would be the highest form of life. Being the highest form of life then we have the right to determine for ourselves our own morality. On the otherhand, if God exists, then the definition of morality belongs to Him, not to us.
For example, God did not tell us not to murder just because He wanted to make up some arbitrary rule. The reason He told us not to murder is because He is the giver of life and He would never take the life of an innocent person. Likewise God is truthful and honest, and therefore He requires us to be honest and truthful ourselves. Isn't it remarkable how few people are offended when we demand that they don't commit murder but are horribly offended when we require them to be truthful and honest. I know what most of you are probably thinking - "at least I haven't killed anybody". But how many people can truly say that we have never hated someone, or destroyed someone's reputation with our words, or have never been jealous or envious of someone? Yet these words and actions springing from our selfishness are just as murderous, "as is the act of taking someone's life" as they fall far short from the love of God that He expects us to exhibit.
I believe some people have totally gotten the wrong idea - that some people are here just to justify the sins of a dead minister or some other TWI leader. They claim "some people" are here just to "shut the victims up" but the truth is, "these victims" are very outspoken! No. Don't be fooled. They flaunt and parade their morality over others, and that's the reason they won't "shut up" and are very outspoken. They use "Christian morality" as their springboard to justify themselves, all the while condeming and crushing others they don't like in order to get rid of them or simply wish would 'go away'. They want you to forget all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God (Romans 3:22). Jesus Christ was a very morale person, but is that how he used morality - to condemn and crush others - to prove to everyone: JUST HOW GREAT AND WONDERFUL A REAL MORAL CHRISTIAN GUY HE WAS?
Now maybe that is the jesus some people want to follow - but not me. Oh, don't misunderstand. My Christ was indeed a moral guy, but he used his morality to lift others up out of the muck and the mire they got themselves into - not crush them and push them down further in it! Of course, when it comes to Jesus Christ, you are completely free to chose one or the other.
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Bramble
There is no one definitive Christian doctrine. Aren't there about 100,000 different Christian doctrines? Or more?
Everybody chooses. Why would someone choose to believe a doctrine they are uncomfortable with --because others tell them they must? Usually there is some type of negative cosequence for choosing wrong.
Some just choose differently than you did. Which human is smart enough to figure out which Christian doctrine is best for all Christians? Which one is really THE truth?
Does your God have consequences for the believers that pick the wrong one??
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rascal
Well WTH, you don`t have to take *my* word for it... the bible gave one sure fire way to tell :) Fruit!!! No kidding! Not speaking in tongues, not research ability, not teaching, not witnessing, tithing...all those things so venerated in twi...but fruit of the spirit. Joy,peace, meekness, longsuffering, love :)
Jesus said we would know and identify one another by the fruit we manifest.
According to scriptures...twi leaders certainly couldn`t pass examination. The fruit of our leaders lives define them as *of the flesh* and as galatians says *without inheritance in the kingdom of God*
Bramble, I think that right there is the consequences of chosing wrongly. Had we known to look for that *fruit* and understood it`s significance, we might have known much earlier how far out of whack twi leaders were.
I personally don`t think that these men ever even WERE christian, according to the biblical definition. I don`t know that people who follow their teachings are today. Whether Christianity is the one real religion or whatever, I think it unfair to judge the earnest, genuine christians, whom actually walk the talk, by these pretenders whom simply wore/wear the label but ignored every basic tenant for the practice of this faith.
There is a reason that wierwille steered us away from those verses and even today people trying to dismiss their sinificance and importance. They don`t like what the bible says about the actions of their leaders, so if they can just shut us up, with demands of forgivnes, to be followed by the required silence, of having forgiven,one can safely return to the illusion of spirituality and Godliness of our twi induced perceptions.
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Mike
rascal,
I think I asked you something like this before, but it stands to be asked again:
Just exactly HOW do you examine the fruit in someone else's life to judge it's absence or presence, and how much is there?
When you do measure the fruit in someone else's life, what instrument do you use, and where do you get it calibrated? Also, what's the best brand to buy, and approximately how much does it cost? I'm also interested in what units it's measured in? Like inches, feet and yards are units of measure for distance, but in what units do you measure someone else's joy or peace or meekness or longsuffering or love?
And also, (I'M just dying to know) do have any fruit files on anyone else besides VPW? ...like especially anyone here?
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rascal
You know that if you read galatians 5 mike, it says it al right there....honest.
It tells exactly what the fruit are in a man of the flesh..and exactly what the fruit of a man of the spirit are. That fruit is manifest because of what we are on the inside.
I know that you venerate wierwille....but that passage tells precisely who and what a drunken fornicating, adulterer is...with no wiggle room. It also says he has no inheritance in the kingdom of God (what ever THAT means)
Fruit of the spirit isn`t what you`d think either from what we were taught...it isn`t speaking in tongues or being researchers, or witnessing, or tithing, or how many we bring to fellowship, in short, all of the things that twi measured spirituality by. Those things are works, and never even made the list.
And no, I don`t keep files on anybody here, thats pretty stupid....What folks do is their business. I do speak of what I have seen, and what I have heard concerning the evil practiced in twi by these people...and how this has impacted my life.
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Mike
How much time have you put into I Corinthians 3 as it relates to these matters in Galatians? There's quite a long passage there from verse 5 to verse 17.
We were taught to use ALL of the scriptures that relate. How many of the others besides Galatians do you use? If you have not extensively worked this area in Corinthians ALONG WITH Galatians, then you only have part of the story to begin with, let alone what you end up with.
If you can't look at I Cor. 3:17 and feel safe, then this is uncharted seas for you and we have a lot of work to do.
Just to test everyone's acumen here, how is this a warm and soothing verse? "If any man defile the temple of God, him shall God destroy; for the temple of God is holy, which temple ye are."
Really, rascal, if you can show me why this is a warm and soothing verse, then I'll know you worked the preceding verses in conjunction with what you preach on Galatians.
It REALLY IS a warm and soothing verse, HONEST. I can show you how if you want to see it. There's a little translation problem.
***
I look at the fruit IN MY OWN LIFE that resulted from the teaching I received (and still receive) from VPW and I know that the teaching is from God by that fruit I see IN MY OWN LIFE.
I can’t look into your life and see your fruit at all. It’s in your heart and it’s not visible to me. God made it pretty private, didn’t He? Same for VPW’s fruit. I can’t look at that private fruit either, but I can look at his teaching and the fruit IN MY OWN LIFE and be very thankful to God. I can look a your teaching, and I can say “No thanks.”
I look to Galatians to understand more about MY OWN LIFE, not someone else's. I learn about the fruit IN MY OWN LIFE there and I learn about sin IN MY OWN LIFE there. I don't go there so much to study others' lives. That's too private a thing to see clearly.
***
We all got some things wrong in twi, and we all suffered some things, but I know we can look at the good we got and see good fruit again result from it. If we choose to look at the bad forever we’ll feel badly forever about it.
But there WAS good that happened, and we owe it to each other to remind us of that. Those who continually insist on being resentful and negative in the face of growing and abounding good will reap negative fruit.aWe who are Jesus Christ men and women can look to the best that happened to us and we can learn to forgive.
The Christ in us yearns to love supernaturally above and beyond reason.
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GarthP2000
It . . . . . is . . . . . alive!! :o :ph34r:
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WhiteDove
Well I guess we are all named Dooj then arn't we
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waysider
FRUIT!!
Ok, so let's digress for a moment to talk about fruit.
Did Wierwille have "love"? There's no way to know.
Did he have "joy"? Again, I don't know.
(If he did, he certainly did not exhibit it.)
"Peace"? Don't know.
(He didn't seem to display it when he was off-stage.)
"Longsuffering"? Well if he did, you wouldn't know it from the way he carried on, ranting and raving at the least little thing that he deem incorrect.
"Gentleness"? That's the "encouraging" fruit. I think it should be obvious where he stood on that one.
How about "goodness" or "faith", which he said was actually "believing".
Then, of course, there is "meekness" and "temperance", which VPW told us was the exercising of "self control".
It should be obvious how he rated on those two.
So, did he have fruit of the spirit in his life? I don't know.
If he did, you surely wouldn't have known it by the example he set.
And isn't that what he was supposed to do?, set an example for his devotees?
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Ham
I think James answered that little question too.
Why spoil a ministry of "faith" with a few good works..
in fact.. I remember loy discouraging good works.. designated them "second-rate causes"..
hmm.
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Ham
Can you imagine "twig" circa 1998 or so..
"your abs seems to be off mark this week.."
"oh, I bought some poor guy a coupla meals.."
Next line, fill in the blank..
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doojable
I don't think that would make many folks very happy....
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rascal
Mike, I kind of figured that you weren`t really interested in my perspective. I know that you are a whiz at ignoring that which doesn`t support your pet theories. I know that you can come up with reams of scriptures as to why it is ok to ignore galatians, or any other scripture that doesn`t support your premiss. I am not interested, because I have read it all before.
Dove, suit yourself. If you don`t want to read what I wrote to you, and insist on applying it to someone else...Why bother to read my posts at all? Why just read them to try to twist them into saying something that I am not?
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rascal
On the OTHER side of the coin Waysider....
19Now the doings (practices) of the flesh are clear (obvious): they are
: immorality, I believe this applies to wiewille
:impurity, Absolutely...
:indecency...ditto
20Idolatry, sorcery, enmity, strife, jealousy, anger (ill temper), selfishness, divisions (dissensions), party spirit (factions, sects with peculiar opinions, heresies),
21Envy, drunkenness, carousing, and the like. I warn you beforehand, just as I did previously, that those who do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.
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Ham
and loy, and *almost* every other bot/bod member..
a half a dozen branch coordinators I knew..
several limb leaders and later coordinators..
and more than a handful of "garden variety" "believers"..
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rascal
Ham, this is where the doctrine, the knowledge of twi led us. All of the focus on speaking in tongues, on knowledge of the scriptures, on operation of principles, the application of immutable laws, the perfectly in order physicals.
If galatians is to be believed, I think that wierwille missed the boat spiritually and led a lot of people down the toilet with him.
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Ham
The whole friggin tree was laced with poison..
maybe not overnight, but it did die from the roots up..
well, maybe as far as longevity of a church, or similar organization is concerned, one might say it died overnight.
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