You're not the first to suggest this, but you did it in the nicest way. I gotta give you credit.
So, what would I say my problem is to a shrink?
I most certainly DO have problems, but I've found that the more I apply PFAL material to my life (as opposed to merely studying it) then my problems get more manageable. Everyone's got problems, it's how manageable are they. I feel pretty good when just reading PFAL too. But the deeper I read it and apply it the better my life it. I do blow it in the application, but that's life.
So, I'm not going to shell out $100 to say I have a PFAL addiction. That's like saying I have a food addiction, but I'm in pretty good shape, not overweight at all, gulp, at least not in the summertime. I have lots of typing time in the wet winters.
Are you making the case that my problem is too much typing or an internet addiction? ...cause that's been suggested too. I would think I should be in a fairly long line of posters you'd want to suggest that to.
How about this: "Doc, you gotta help me. I just can't fit in with the rest of the crowd. I just want to focus on the positives of that time and I can't quit. It's robbing me of personal relationships with others who are bitter about that time of their lives."
Just kidding.
How about this, let's just you and me try to keep up this more friendly way of chatting and see if we can get to the bottom of some other things. In the process you may decide to back off of this suggestion, or find another way to slip it to me.
You wrote: “You don`t have to believe mike, you have closed your ears and your heart to the anguish suffered at the man of the flesh that you venerate.”
No, I close my ears and heart to SOME THINGS, but not that.
Here’s what I do close off too: the WAY it’s presented, WHERE it’s presented (like in public or private), and the intent behind it. When I don’t see those lined up right, I’m locked tighter than a safe. I close my mind to that.
Anyone want to search out all the places here where I’ve testified that I have a closed mind? I can remember about three or four.
***
And you’re also wrong about me not being hurt.
You wrote: “It certainly wasn`t insignificant if YOU were the one who was drugged and raped...or it was YOUR family member who died from following vic`s doctrine and instructions...”
It took me years to heal from the wounds of several TVTs and twi people. I still deal with it to this day, although I HAVE improved greatly. In 1998, before receiving any of this this healing, I had gradually reached a point where a few of my e-mails to clergy and leadership reached a negative-VPW pitch comparable to the most ardent and eloquent of posters I sometimes call “complainers” here.
And, I might add, because I CAN relate to those who hurt, IN PRIVATE it's a totally different situation with them there than in public here. I can discuss some things with them there in a totally different way. I can offer this to you, to talk by phone and show you. I’ve had private communications with many women here who previously were infuriated with me. Abigail is one, and she allowed it to be posted how it all went down. I don’t call them complainers when I’ve talked to them personally and it’s different. Others here can verify that I'm quite civil and personable, not an attack dog like so many Corps became.
***
You wrote: “I can recognize that we are either of the flesh or of the spirit....our fruit as described in galatians identifies which and what the consequences are.”
Can you recognize how Paul reports in Romans 7 that BOTH are present at once within a man?
***
You wrote: “This isn`t a forum FOR us to share eloquent and intense teachings on God and his son, that would be inapropriate.... It is a forum to discuss what happened to us in twi.”
What happened to me in twi was largely good; intensely good too. Thousands of others also experienced this.
Besides, you don’t have to use this forum (but you probably could) to show me your comparable fruit, comparable to the results PFAL brings me. There are other ways to do it, but “do it” MUST be done to get MY attention.
I feel very safe in the meantime assuming that your ability to bless is FAR less than Dr’s, so Dr’s direction (with destination: printed-PFAL, not personal vpw) is what’s got my attention.
***
You wrote: “Mike It dies NOT apply to me.... *I* am not hurting people in the name of God. I am not lying stealing killing and destroying, using my reputation as God`s leader to intimidate and scriptures as my weapons to enforce compliance to my will... ...Not even CLOSE!!!!!”
If PFAL is God-breathed, then you are hurting people, and I’ll promise to help you heal from it all when you finally realize it.
If PFAL is not God-breathed, then I’m not hurting anyone any more than Kenyon, Bullinger, Stiles, or Leonard did.
No thanks Mike, I have seen first hand the results of pfal belief. Vic wierwille himself...martindale...so many many whom bought into his schpeal eventually became the most viscious and cruel people it has ever been my misfortune to meet.
Genuine spiritually healthy doctrine and practice just doesn`t do this to people. It doesn`t lead them to become monsters, predators preying on the innocent.
The only proof I need at the end is to open my interlinear and show that the word "one" is added to the King James version of John and is not in any of the Greek manuscripts.
Verse in John?
Raf's thread and the majority of posters there have a pre-commitment (which they often deny) to find errors in PFAL. They don't work the principles we were taught when reading it, but instead work principles designed to find and even manufacture error. I've posted there and argued this ad infinitum in other threads.
It's all in the Greek, Mike.
I use an entirely different method of looking at the collaterals. I get different results. It's all in the method.
What would that be? One eye closed and the other squinted so tight that you can count your eyelashes?
I Cor. 3:17
“If any man defile the temple of God, him shall God destroy; for the temple of God is holy, which temple ye are.”
Notice the italics in there. If we remove the word “temple” then we have:
“If any man defile the temple of God, him shall God destroy; for the temple of God is holy, which ye are.”
I mentioned earlier in this thread that this verse seems to almost contradict itself. Do you see it? In the first half of the verse we’re warned that we might be destroyed if we do the wrong thing. In the second half we’re “comforted” to hear that we’re holy. How skitzo is THAT?
If you want to put “temple” back in, fine. It may even be implied by the Greek grammar technicalities that are beyond me. But it still is an odd verse, isn’t it?
Hedging are we?
If you check the context, back even to the beginning of the chapter, you’ll find many soothing references that line up with us being either the temple or holy. But then verse 17a rears it’s ugly religious condemning head. The way our culture has conditioned us (especially RCs) to dread hell and God’s condemnation, this first half of verse 17 overpowers the entire passage, if not the entire chapter!
I think there is a reason no grads here have picked up on this, and a reason IT SEEMS hardly any of you EVEN READ this verse in the good old days.
I think the reason this passage is such a stranger to most of you is because of verse 17a and it’s negatives. I think most posters on this thread shoved that entire passage under the rug 25 and 35 years ago because of the chills of verse 17a.
You know why people tried to ignore it? Cause deep down that Holy Spirit thing was convicting away, asking each and every one of us what we were building?
I know when I first saw it I just HAD to ask my twig, branch, and limp leaders RIGHT AWAY! They didn't have answers, so I eventually brought it to Walter. He settled it in no time flat. He and others had seen it and worked it.
And so what did they say? (breathless!)
It wouldn't be, "SCRATCH IT OUT!" would it?
Another reason I’ve been delaying my exposition here on this verse is to give everyone a chance to speak up if they had worked that difficult verse and it’s context.
So, this is the last call.
Anyone who can explain the pain of verse 17a and how it does NOT contradict itself and the chapter, SPEAK UP NOW.
DRUMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMM ROLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLL
Naw, I'm waiting for you...I want to see what you come up with?
Yes. It should be clear from the context. Are you familiar with the PFAL teaching on the four crucified?
***
You wrote regarding the posting here that supposedly identifies errors in PFAL: “It's all in the Greek, Mike.”
Pshaw!
What about Orientalisms and Ohioisms? What about Figures of speech? Could it be that you are exaggerating the value of your Greek learning? What about the Aramaic? What do you think of those who think the originals were in Aramaic and then translated into Greek a little later? Does that bother you?
***
I had mentioned that I use an entirely different method of looking at the collaterals. I get different results. It's all in the method.
You responded with: “What would that be? One eye closed and the other squinted so tight that you can count your eyelashes?”
Is there any reason you want to be rough with me like that? Did I offend you or something?
Hey, I like to talk serious here, but if you want to get into a pizzing contest I might think about doing a Zorba the Greek tap dance number on top of your table in between all your drinks there, and kick over one into your lap only at the very end.
But then again, maybe you can still learn something from my being more civil with you, so I’ll refrain. Besides, I’d rather teach the audience the Word than show off my theatrical skills.
***
Ok, let’s start again.
You responded with: “What would that be? One eye closed and the other squinted so tight that you can count your eyelashes?”
What I do is one eye squinted so tight that I can count my eyelashes, and the OTHER closed.
Huh?
Wait a minute!
Doooooooooouuuuughhhhhhhhhh!
See what you made me do!
The method I use is the same thing we were taught in PFAL to do with ancient manuscripts and available texts. There are many elements to this method. I mentioned a few in passing above.
Here’s a specific example:
When a contradiction is encountered in PFAL, the method Raf & Co. (sorry Raf, you’ve been immortalized in my nomenclature now) is to pop a Champagne bottle after a little sorting through it’s validity. The method we were taught and I employ is to sort thorough it A LOT and forget about the Champagne.
My goal is to see when and where and how it fits, holding the assumption that SOMEHOW it must fit. We were taught that if it doesn’t fit after all known methods are employed you let it sit and wait. Dr taught us that sometimes he had a verse sitting in waiting for 15 years before God showed him how to handle it.
The "SOMEHOW it must fit" probably got your gourd, but it's the assumption you use when dealing with scripture manuscript discrepancies. I'm not looking to prove that PFAL is God-breathed; I am now to the point that I ASSUME it's God-breathed. The proof took place decades ago and is done.
Assumptions are necessary and unavoidable in every endeavor. It's good to be aware of them and to choose them carefully. I did that long ago. It's done.
There are other differences in our methods, but time is short.
***
When I withdrew the italics approach you wrote: “Hedging are we?”
No. I said several times that the self contradiction is minor compared to the contextual violation.
***
I mentioned that I think most posters on this thread shoved that entire passage under the rug 25 and 35 years ago because of the chills of verse 17a.
You responded with: “You know why people tried to ignore it? Cause deep down that Holy Spirit thing was convicting away, asking each and every one of us what we were building?”
Speak for yourself, John. I was building something different than you were.
convicting conschmicting
The LAST thing in life I needed was to be convicted of my sin. The RCs are WAY ahead of you and all Protestants in threatening people into heaven. I had nightmares of hell as early as the 3nd grade. There were vestiges of RC condemnation that cropped up in my head as late as two years ago. Probably STILL some in there.
I was building a relationship with the Father and His Son. And the way verse 3:17a was fixed for me helped me all the more. I don’t want a god who’s a mere fire escape from hell. And I don’t think God wants me to view him that way either. I want a Father like Jesus had! I dont want a god who would destroy me if I sin like 17aKJV threatens. The god you are describing seems pretty common, traditional, and miserable. The old man the bird and the hippie. If you want to convince me of THAT value and validity you’ll have to get in line... a LONG line... yawn
No thanks Mike, I have seen first hand the results of pfal belief. Vic wierwille himself...martindale...so many many whom bought into his schpeal eventually became the most viscious and cruel people it has ever been my misfortune to meet.
Genuine spiritually healthy doctrine and practice just doesn`t do this to people. It doesn`t lead them to become monsters, predators preying on the innocent.
rascal,
On THIS we agree. I have spent 5 years here observing and trying to show others over and over that the doctrine most grads, especially the heaviest complainers, was NOT from the PFAL teachings but from a host of evolving and multiplying TVTs, or Twi Verbal Traditions.
When it came to the tough treatment the Corps received, the original intent of that treatment was training. We all were told that going into the Corps was a heavy commitment and that training was supposed to be tough, like boot camp only more on the mental and spiritual side than on the physical, although that was included too.
When I heard of the what the Corps was all about I said "I'm not ready; that's not for me; not yet anyway." I was content to learn and live OUTSIDE the Corps program and thought of it even as a calling. I admired how quickly others felt they WERE ready, but now we know a lot of them weren't.
Imitation is thought of as the highest form of flattery, but I think it's also the worst form of learning. Sometimes good for starters, but not always.
I saw lots of VPW imitators in the Corps. Cheap imitations they were. They were able to get the tough love down right away, imitating the earlier successes in the boot camp tough training approach. But as the older leaders started dying off and Dr retiring from the scene, the younger tough-love imitators dealt a lot of damage.
Tough love is something I saw Jesus Christ use, but when necessary and with Word of Wisdom. He first had to master tender love to qualify for the more rare times more intense situations where tough love was necessary. I think Dr did pretty well in learning the same wisdom, but not-so the younger leaders. They skipped over that part, and got the counterfeit in place.
I found that many joined the Corps with no plan for what to do if that track was not best for them. A lot of impetuous decisions were made and people found themselves in a program not suited for them but they HAD to stay. It was either the Corps or nothing, so they had to do whatever to stay in.
The gut-retchingness of the decision to leave the was self manufactured by many into being equivalent to leaving God. They just built a entire system in their minds that wasn’t the Word, and the young leaders enforced all this with no wisdom whatsoever. All the while, from 1975 to 1985 Dr was gradually mounting up a campaign to call them back to the pure doctrine of the collaterals and love, culminating with his very last teaching in one last desperate appeal to top leadership to get it right and come back to the revelation and forget (or at least temper) all the slogans and program TVT doctrine generators.
If people had kept it all more simple and just had listened a lot would have been different.
None of the abuses complained about here are to be found (Oh, some TRY!) in the collaterals and articles. They all come from both leadership and Corps program followers building a huge set of broken cisterns farther and farther removed from printed PFAL.
I have seen dozens of Corps people over the past ten years who clearly put Dr’s publicly spoken words over his printed words. I have seen tens of Corps people tell me that what Dr told them IN PRIVATE overshadowed what was in the collaterals, and they told me this with a flair of pride in their voice.
Did Dr do wrong. Sure! Was he the subhuman monster portrayed by some here? Not at all. Should we hang on his every spoken word and policy and program and think it’s God-breathed? No, not at all. But the printed material is quite different.
So, we agree on this: “Genuine spiritually healthy doctrine and practice just doesn`t do this to people. It doesn`t lead them to become monsters, predators preying on the innocent.”
In studying the collaterals I don’t get the slightest tug in that direction. From the young Corps leaders I did get that tug, and a lot. But the collaterals are pure.
On THIS we agree. I have spent 5 years here observing and trying to show others over and over that the doctrine most grads, especially the heaviest complainers, was NOT from the PFAL teachings but from a host of evolving and multiplying TVTs, or Twi Verbal Traditions.
When it came to the tough treatment the Corps received, the original intent of that treatment was training. We all were told that going into the Corps was a heavy commitment and that training was supposed to be tough, like boot camp only more on the mental and spiritual side than on the physical, although that was included too.
When I heard of the what the Corps was all about I said "I'm not ready; that's not for me; not yet anyway." I was content to learn and live OUTSIDE the Corps program and thought of it even as a calling. I admired how quickly others felt they WERE ready, but now we know a lot of them weren't.
Imitation is thought of as the highest form of flattery, but I think it's also the worst form of learning. Sometimes good for starters, but not always.
I saw lots of VPW imitators in the Corps. Cheap imitations they were. They were able to get the tough love down right away, imitating the earlier successes in the boot camp tough training approach. But as the older leaders started dying off and Dr retiring from the scene, the younger tough-love imitators dealt a lot of damage.
Tough love is something I saw Jesus Christ use, but when necessary and with Word of Wisdom. He first had to master tender love to qualify for the more rare times more intense situations where tough love was necessary. I think Dr did pretty well in learning the same wisdom, but not-so the younger leaders. They skipped over that part, and got the counterfeit in place.
I found that many joined the Corps with no plan for what to do if that track was not best for them. A lot of impetuous decisions were made and people found themselves in a program not suited for them but they HAD to stay. It was either the Corps or nothing, so they had to do whatever to stay in.
The gut-retchingness of the decision to leave the was self manufactured by many into being equivalent to leaving God. They just built a entire system in their minds that wasn’t the Word, and the young leaders enforced all this with no wisdom whatsoever. All the while, from 1975 to 1985 Dr was gradually mounting up a campaign to call them back to the pure doctrine of the collaterals and love, culminating with his very last teaching in one last desperate appeal to top leadership to get it right and come back to the revelation and forget (or at least temper) all the slogans and program TVT doctrine generators.
If people had kept it all more simple and just had listened a lot would have been different.
None of the abuses complained about here are to be found (Oh, some TRY!) in the collaterals and articles. They all come from both leadership and Corps program followers building a huge set of broken cisterns farther and farther removed from printed PFAL.
I have seen dozens of Corps people over the past ten years who clearly put Dr’s publicly spoken words over his printed words. I have seen tens of Corps people tell me that what Dr told them IN PRIVATE overshadowed what was in the collaterals, and they told me this with a flair of pride in their voice.
Did Dr do wrong. Sure! Was he the subhuman monster portrayed by some here? Not at all. Should we hang on his every spoken word and policy and program and think it’s God-breathed? No, not at all. But the printed material is quite different.
So, we agree on this: “Genuine spiritually healthy doctrine and practice just doesn`t do this to people. It doesn`t lead them to become monsters, predators preying on the innocent.”
In studying the collaterals I don’t get the slightest tug in that direction. From the young Corps leaders I did get that tug, and a lot. But the collaterals are pure.
PFAL WAS THE EBOLA VIRUS AND WE WERE THE HOST!!!!!
THE WAY INTERNATIONAL IS A TOXIN ,THAT DESTROYS PEOPLES LIVES AND FAMILIES AN MUST BE CONTAINED AND
You people crack me up sometimes. I wonder how difficult it would be to find a Ham post where the those same “ingredients” are praised. Kenyon, Bullinger, Leonard, Etc.
I know of many others here who will praise the content of those men’s writings, or symphonize with other posters who do the same, and lament that these wonderful teachers were plagiarized.
So, Ham, did Kenyon serve bad stew? Bullinger? Leonard? I’m trying to get you in trouble with posters who love those teachers.
No, vic served BAD Kenyon, Bullinger, Leonard stew. Just toss in some Bullinger, Leonard, etc, and a few hundred acts of adultery or so, a few druggings, unbridled arrogance, idolatry, hatred, going on rages over rather insignificant matters, pornography.. thefts (the supposed main ingredients), bribery, both giving and taking, wrath, witchcraft (especially if you consider the drugged ladies, so the man-o-gawd could be SPIRITUALLY relieved, and at his best). Add the few times around the campfire, when he could just play being a nice guy, the "gentle giant" who brought all of this, and more.
Kinda have to look at the big picture.. the main ingredients were only incidental.
Bullinger, Stiles.. Kenyon.. their reputation was probably better off, that he DIDN'T cite them..
Maybe that's why they call this place a "vomitorium".
Read the ingredients for what you've just consumed.. you're gonna vomit..
just "too negative" I guess..
When I learned how to read, I once read the ingredients on a package of bologna.. they put some pretty nasty stuff in it in those days.. I never ate it again.
Mike, I understand your premiss. I understand that your belief system is in complete disagreement with scriptural instructions that that every warning God gives in the scripture concerning false prophets, every measuring stick we are given where by to judge a persons spirituality...all soundly condemn wierwille AND his doctrine...and warn us away from creeps like that.
To use his doctrine to reason why a person is required to shut up about the crimes, the wrongs committed, to silence the evidence of the very fruit where by we are to judge this man and his ministry.
This thread is about forgivness, not about why vic and his class are great.
People here have often communicated to me that maybe I need to switch to decaf and calm down a little. Yesterday waysider did it in a most polite and gentle manner. May I suggest the same to you?
You seem a little artificially worked up in your focus on rooting out all evil. Relax a little. The worst of twi is long past, like I posted above about twi being destroyed twice already.
The winds of trend used to blow in twi’s direction and hoards of people went that direction. As we see now, many who came to the class did so for not-the-best reasons and many activities eventually evolved into not-so-good practices.
Those winds are blowing in the opposite direction now. The only people who are going to “sign up” with twi nowadays are people who are bound to go down some OTHER hole if twi were to be utterly removed from the face of the earth. The only people who are going to “sign up” with me are those who are willing to brave hurricane force winds of trend blowing them AWAY from the collaterals.
I think you can relax your “shouting from the rooftops” exposing the evil with which you have taken on as a personal duty to root out all vestiges thereof.
Your dedication is beginning to remind me (and some several others here) of the same Corps mentality that we all had enough of long ago. Your focus seems a little like a 1985 Corps Clergy who changed her playbook but held on to her tactics.
Relax a little. We’ve all been set free of the twi shackles.
After reading your post #1 on the new thread you just started I think I should take back about 60% of what I just posted above. I can now understand your angst much more. If there's anything I could do to help I would. God bless you.
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waysider
Mike
Have you sought out professional help?
I don't mean that to sound facetious.
You got conned just like the rest of us.
There's no shame in that.
Lots and lots of very bright people were fooled, also.
Maybe someone who is trained to deal with these things can help you.
I'm sure someone could direct you to the proper sources of help.
You could PM them in private and no one would have to know.
waysider
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Mike
waysider,
Thanks, but no thanks.
You're not the first to suggest this, but you did it in the nicest way. I gotta give you credit.
So, what would I say my problem is to a shrink?
I most certainly DO have problems, but I've found that the more I apply PFAL material to my life (as opposed to merely studying it) then my problems get more manageable. Everyone's got problems, it's how manageable are they. I feel pretty good when just reading PFAL too. But the deeper I read it and apply it the better my life it. I do blow it in the application, but that's life.
So, I'm not going to shell out $100 to say I have a PFAL addiction. That's like saying I have a food addiction, but I'm in pretty good shape, not overweight at all, gulp, at least not in the summertime. I have lots of typing time in the wet winters.
Are you making the case that my problem is too much typing or an internet addiction? ...cause that's been suggested too. I would think I should be in a fairly long line of posters you'd want to suggest that to.
How about this: "Doc, you gotta help me. I just can't fit in with the rest of the crowd. I just want to focus on the positives of that time and I can't quit. It's robbing me of personal relationships with others who are bitter about that time of their lives."
Just kidding.
How about this, let's just you and me try to keep up this more friendly way of chatting and see if we can get to the bottom of some other things. In the process you may decide to back off of this suggestion, or find another way to slip it to me.
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Mike
rascal,
You wrote: “You don`t have to believe mike, you have closed your ears and your heart to the anguish suffered at the man of the flesh that you venerate.”
No, I close my ears and heart to SOME THINGS, but not that.
Here’s what I do close off too: the WAY it’s presented, WHERE it’s presented (like in public or private), and the intent behind it. When I don’t see those lined up right, I’m locked tighter than a safe. I close my mind to that.
Anyone want to search out all the places here where I’ve testified that I have a closed mind? I can remember about three or four.
***
And you’re also wrong about me not being hurt.
You wrote: “It certainly wasn`t insignificant if YOU were the one who was drugged and raped...or it was YOUR family member who died from following vic`s doctrine and instructions...”
It took me years to heal from the wounds of several TVTs and twi people. I still deal with it to this day, although I HAVE improved greatly. In 1998, before receiving any of this this healing, I had gradually reached a point where a few of my e-mails to clergy and leadership reached a negative-VPW pitch comparable to the most ardent and eloquent of posters I sometimes call “complainers” here.
And, I might add, because I CAN relate to those who hurt, IN PRIVATE it's a totally different situation with them there than in public here. I can discuss some things with them there in a totally different way. I can offer this to you, to talk by phone and show you. I’ve had private communications with many women here who previously were infuriated with me. Abigail is one, and she allowed it to be posted how it all went down. I don’t call them complainers when I’ve talked to them personally and it’s different. Others here can verify that I'm quite civil and personable, not an attack dog like so many Corps became.
***
You wrote: “I can recognize that we are either of the flesh or of the spirit....our fruit as described in galatians identifies which and what the consequences are.”
Can you recognize how Paul reports in Romans 7 that BOTH are present at once within a man?
***
You wrote: “This isn`t a forum FOR us to share eloquent and intense teachings on God and his son, that would be inapropriate.... It is a forum to discuss what happened to us in twi.”
What happened to me in twi was largely good; intensely good too. Thousands of others also experienced this.
Besides, you don’t have to use this forum (but you probably could) to show me your comparable fruit, comparable to the results PFAL brings me. There are other ways to do it, but “do it” MUST be done to get MY attention.
I feel very safe in the meantime assuming that your ability to bless is FAR less than Dr’s, so Dr’s direction (with destination: printed-PFAL, not personal vpw) is what’s got my attention.
***
You wrote: “Mike It dies NOT apply to me.... *I* am not hurting people in the name of God. I am not lying stealing killing and destroying, using my reputation as God`s leader to intimidate and scriptures as my weapons to enforce compliance to my will... ...Not even CLOSE!!!!!”
If PFAL is God-breathed, then you are hurting people, and I’ll promise to help you heal from it all when you finally realize it.
If PFAL is not God-breathed, then I’m not hurting anyone any more than Kenyon, Bullinger, Stiles, or Leonard did.
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rascal
You know....even if per chance I were to arbitrarily *forgive* these scum, without the pre requisit of repentance, and asking...
It wouldn`t change my responsibility to shout their evil from the roof tops....AND ...
It wouldn`t help these guys a bit....They`d STILL be men *of the flesh* AND *without inheritance in the kingdom of heaven*, according to galatians..
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rascal
No thanks Mike, I have seen first hand the results of pfal belief. Vic wierwille himself...martindale...so many many whom bought into his schpeal eventually became the most viscious and cruel people it has ever been my misfortune to meet.
Genuine spiritually healthy doctrine and practice just doesn`t do this to people. It doesn`t lead them to become monsters, predators preying on the innocent.
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brideofjc
DRUMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMM ROLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLL
Naw, I'm waiting for you...I want to see what you come up with?
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Mike
brideofjc,
You wrote: “Verse in John?”
Yes. It should be clear from the context. Are you familiar with the PFAL teaching on the four crucified?
***
You wrote regarding the posting here that supposedly identifies errors in PFAL: “It's all in the Greek, Mike.”
Pshaw!
What about Orientalisms and Ohioisms? What about Figures of speech? Could it be that you are exaggerating the value of your Greek learning? What about the Aramaic? What do you think of those who think the originals were in Aramaic and then translated into Greek a little later? Does that bother you?
***
I had mentioned that I use an entirely different method of looking at the collaterals. I get different results. It's all in the method.
You responded with: “What would that be? One eye closed and the other squinted so tight that you can count your eyelashes?”
Is there any reason you want to be rough with me like that? Did I offend you or something?
Hey, I like to talk serious here, but if you want to get into a pizzing contest I might think about doing a Zorba the Greek tap dance number on top of your table in between all your drinks there, and kick over one into your lap only at the very end.
But then again, maybe you can still learn something from my being more civil with you, so I’ll refrain. Besides, I’d rather teach the audience the Word than show off my theatrical skills.
***
Ok, let’s start again.
You responded with: “What would that be? One eye closed and the other squinted so tight that you can count your eyelashes?”
What I do is one eye squinted so tight that I can count my eyelashes, and the OTHER closed.
Huh?
Wait a minute!
Doooooooooouuuuughhhhhhhhhh!
See what you made me do!
The method I use is the same thing we were taught in PFAL to do with ancient manuscripts and available texts. There are many elements to this method. I mentioned a few in passing above.
Here’s a specific example:
When a contradiction is encountered in PFAL, the method Raf & Co. (sorry Raf, you’ve been immortalized in my nomenclature now) is to pop a Champagne bottle after a little sorting through it’s validity. The method we were taught and I employ is to sort thorough it A LOT and forget about the Champagne.
My goal is to see when and where and how it fits, holding the assumption that SOMEHOW it must fit. We were taught that if it doesn’t fit after all known methods are employed you let it sit and wait. Dr taught us that sometimes he had a verse sitting in waiting for 15 years before God showed him how to handle it.
The "SOMEHOW it must fit" probably got your gourd, but it's the assumption you use when dealing with scripture manuscript discrepancies. I'm not looking to prove that PFAL is God-breathed; I am now to the point that I ASSUME it's God-breathed. The proof took place decades ago and is done.
Assumptions are necessary and unavoidable in every endeavor. It's good to be aware of them and to choose them carefully. I did that long ago. It's done.
There are other differences in our methods, but time is short.
***
When I withdrew the italics approach you wrote: “Hedging are we?”
No. I said several times that the self contradiction is minor compared to the contextual violation.
***
I mentioned that I think most posters on this thread shoved that entire passage under the rug 25 and 35 years ago because of the chills of verse 17a.
You responded with: “You know why people tried to ignore it? Cause deep down that Holy Spirit thing was convicting away, asking each and every one of us what we were building?”
Speak for yourself, John. I was building something different than you were.
convicting conschmicting
The LAST thing in life I needed was to be convicted of my sin. The RCs are WAY ahead of you and all Protestants in threatening people into heaven. I had nightmares of hell as early as the 3nd grade. There were vestiges of RC condemnation that cropped up in my head as late as two years ago. Probably STILL some in there.
I was building a relationship with the Father and His Son. And the way verse 3:17a was fixed for me helped me all the more. I don’t want a god who’s a mere fire escape from hell. And I don’t think God wants me to view him that way either. I want a Father like Jesus had! I dont want a god who would destroy me if I sin like 17aKJV threatens. The god you are describing seems pretty common, traditional, and miserable. The old man the bird and the hippie. If you want to convince me of THAT value and validity you’ll have to get in line... a LONG line... yawn
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Mike
rascal,
On THIS we agree. I have spent 5 years here observing and trying to show others over and over that the doctrine most grads, especially the heaviest complainers, was NOT from the PFAL teachings but from a host of evolving and multiplying TVTs, or Twi Verbal Traditions.
When it came to the tough treatment the Corps received, the original intent of that treatment was training. We all were told that going into the Corps was a heavy commitment and that training was supposed to be tough, like boot camp only more on the mental and spiritual side than on the physical, although that was included too.
When I heard of the what the Corps was all about I said "I'm not ready; that's not for me; not yet anyway." I was content to learn and live OUTSIDE the Corps program and thought of it even as a calling. I admired how quickly others felt they WERE ready, but now we know a lot of them weren't.
Imitation is thought of as the highest form of flattery, but I think it's also the worst form of learning. Sometimes good for starters, but not always.
I saw lots of VPW imitators in the Corps. Cheap imitations they were. They were able to get the tough love down right away, imitating the earlier successes in the boot camp tough training approach. But as the older leaders started dying off and Dr retiring from the scene, the younger tough-love imitators dealt a lot of damage.
Tough love is something I saw Jesus Christ use, but when necessary and with Word of Wisdom. He first had to master tender love to qualify for the more rare times more intense situations where tough love was necessary. I think Dr did pretty well in learning the same wisdom, but not-so the younger leaders. They skipped over that part, and got the counterfeit in place.
I found that many joined the Corps with no plan for what to do if that track was not best for them. A lot of impetuous decisions were made and people found themselves in a program not suited for them but they HAD to stay. It was either the Corps or nothing, so they had to do whatever to stay in.
The gut-retchingness of the decision to leave the was self manufactured by many into being equivalent to leaving God. They just built a entire system in their minds that wasn’t the Word, and the young leaders enforced all this with no wisdom whatsoever. All the while, from 1975 to 1985 Dr was gradually mounting up a campaign to call them back to the pure doctrine of the collaterals and love, culminating with his very last teaching in one last desperate appeal to top leadership to get it right and come back to the revelation and forget (or at least temper) all the slogans and program TVT doctrine generators.
If people had kept it all more simple and just had listened a lot would have been different.
None of the abuses complained about here are to be found (Oh, some TRY!) in the collaterals and articles. They all come from both leadership and Corps program followers building a huge set of broken cisterns farther and farther removed from printed PFAL.
I have seen dozens of Corps people over the past ten years who clearly put Dr’s publicly spoken words over his printed words. I have seen tens of Corps people tell me that what Dr told them IN PRIVATE overshadowed what was in the collaterals, and they told me this with a flair of pride in their voice.
Did Dr do wrong. Sure! Was he the subhuman monster portrayed by some here? Not at all. Should we hang on his every spoken word and policy and program and think it’s God-breathed? No, not at all. But the printed material is quite different.
So, we agree on this: “Genuine spiritually healthy doctrine and practice just doesn`t do this to people. It doesn`t lead them to become monsters, predators preying on the innocent.”
In studying the collaterals I don’t get the slightest tug in that direction. From the young Corps leaders I did get that tug, and a lot. But the collaterals are pure.
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cheranne
PFAL WAS THE EBOLA VIRUS AND WE WERE THE HOST!!!!!
THE WAY INTERNATIONAL IS A TOXIN ,THAT DESTROYS PEOPLES LIVES AND FAMILIES AN MUST BE CONTAINED AND
DESTROYED
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Mike
I think TWI was destroyed in 1986, and again in 2000.
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cman
What are these results from pfal in your life Mike?
All I see is an antagonistic atheist.
Never anything about God or Christ.
Just some books and material that you 'claim' to live by.
But it's just your dream, that will not come true.
No doubt in person these things would not be evident.
But your typed words are evidence of real problems.
That can be remedied.
Though you don't want it, or think you will get anything different then your pfal and the rest.
Or some new found "gems" in those works.
You will Mike, you will, a promise and promises in spite of yourself.
Your time, as it is, is almost gone, and you will not be the same, nor your unspoken ideas and results.
God Bless, there is mercy and Grace to get to, and the road to it is white hot.
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Ham
No, vic served BAD Kenyon, Bullinger, Leonard stew. Just toss in some Bullinger, Leonard, etc, and a few hundred acts of adultery or so, a few druggings, unbridled arrogance, idolatry, hatred, going on rages over rather insignificant matters, pornography.. thefts (the supposed main ingredients), bribery, both giving and taking, wrath, witchcraft (especially if you consider the drugged ladies, so the man-o-gawd could be SPIRITUALLY relieved, and at his best). Add the few times around the campfire, when he could just play being a nice guy, the "gentle giant" who brought all of this, and more.
Kinda have to look at the big picture.. the main ingredients were only incidental.
Bullinger, Stiles.. Kenyon.. their reputation was probably better off, that he DIDN'T cite them..
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cman
o we are 'you people' now...
hmmmm-interesting
what does that make you in your mind, mike?
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Ham
sorry.. hit the add reply button to quick.. edited to add comments..
:)
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Ham
There is saint's blood in that stew..
and they've hauled it off, and they are serving it to others even today...
bad karma seems to follow it, wherever it is served.
Look what it did to CES..
We will see what it does to the "other" ministry. And I think we are starting to see.
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Ham
Maybe that's why they call this place a "vomitorium".
Read the ingredients for what you've just consumed.. you're gonna vomit..
just "too negative" I guess..
When I learned how to read, I once read the ingredients on a package of bologna.. they put some pretty nasty stuff in it in those days.. I never ate it again.
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Ham
Over on that "other" site, they are probably serving it with champagne..
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Ham
They say Kesey could cook up some really good venison stew..
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rascal
Mike, I understand your premiss. I understand that your belief system is in complete disagreement with scriptural instructions that that every warning God gives in the scripture concerning false prophets, every measuring stick we are given where by to judge a persons spirituality...all soundly condemn wierwille AND his doctrine...and warn us away from creeps like that.
To use his doctrine to reason why a person is required to shut up about the crimes, the wrongs committed, to silence the evidence of the very fruit where by we are to judge this man and his ministry.
This thread is about forgivness, not about why vic and his class are great.
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oldiesman
I found this link on GS page above. It's pretty good:
Why Forgive?
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Mike
rascal,
People here have often communicated to me that maybe I need to switch to decaf and calm down a little. Yesterday waysider did it in a most polite and gentle manner. May I suggest the same to you?
You seem a little artificially worked up in your focus on rooting out all evil. Relax a little. The worst of twi is long past, like I posted above about twi being destroyed twice already.
The winds of trend used to blow in twi’s direction and hoards of people went that direction. As we see now, many who came to the class did so for not-the-best reasons and many activities eventually evolved into not-so-good practices.
Those winds are blowing in the opposite direction now. The only people who are going to “sign up” with twi nowadays are people who are bound to go down some OTHER hole if twi were to be utterly removed from the face of the earth. The only people who are going to “sign up” with me are those who are willing to brave hurricane force winds of trend blowing them AWAY from the collaterals.
I think you can relax your “shouting from the rooftops” exposing the evil with which you have taken on as a personal duty to root out all vestiges thereof.
Your dedication is beginning to remind me (and some several others here) of the same Corps mentality that we all had enough of long ago. Your focus seems a little like a 1985 Corps Clergy who changed her playbook but held on to her tactics.
Relax a little. We’ve all been set free of the twi shackles.
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Mike
rascal,
After reading your post #1 on the new thread you just started I think I should take back about 60% of what I just posted above. I can now understand your angst much more. If there's anything I could do to help I would. God bless you.
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rascal
That was nice Mike, thank you.
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