CMan I apologize if I have caused you one milimicron of a nanosecond of the slightest displeasure. I will no longer post on this thread. I was trying to learn something but apparently that's not a good idea.
Once again, my apologies to all. I apparently mistook a sermon for a discussion.
rhino, that was my feeling and why my prickles went up right away. seems like someone new will regularly pop in to teach us some lesson that we're obviously missing from the bible. I actually come here for a different reason entirely. they're free to sermonize I guess but I don't feel thankful in the least for it and I find it a bit insulting to assume anyone here has missed their valuable lesson delivered in a few easy paragraphs. I'm perfectly ok with people asking legit questions or just coming in to join a discussion, but I'm really not here so random people can try to save my soul. I will work out my own salvation and learn from the examples I see of both right and wrong.
cman, she suggested we look at our experiences from another perspective (hers), and it came off as preachy. I followed her statements through to a conclusion that I find horrifying, that God hurts people, or hurts or kills those they love, to teach them something. I'm simply not interested in a God like that, I find the concept repulsive. yeah, I was rude in telling her to keep her God to herself if that's what she believes, and she's free to preach a hateful God all she likes because she's free to view God as she likes, but I might be offended at the expectation that I should consider believing what she thinks because it will be good for me. there's a good reason I don't visit the doctrinal thread much and why I do most of my reading and posting in About the Way.
Cman, if you look on about page 7 of the Open Forum, there is a thread on the video class "Secrets of the Vine" by Dr. Bruce Wilkinson, who is also the author of "The Prayer of Jabez" that deals with much the same thing as CC9 was proclaiming. That is why I asked him/her if s/he had taken this class or read the book. I disagree with the POV expressed in both instances, but at least the class stated it clearly. When I asked for clarification and simplification, I got jumped on by both of you.
If CC9 doesn't want to discuss anything in any style other than his/her own, that's fine. But I am not getting anything out of it, other than, as Potato suggested, that God does things to people that are painful in order to teach them something or heal them of the disease HE gave them in the first place.
Have I learned anything by being diabetic? Why I most certainly have, but from doctors, nurses and PA-C's not from God. I am learning a LOT of self-discipline regarding what I eat, which is damn little of anything these days, so I guess you could say God is teaching me self-discipline, not through His Word or through revelation, but through a glucometer.
In fact, if God wants me to learn a lesson, I find He uses His Word or another person rather than sickness, disease, death, or diabetes for that matter.
For that matter, I don't believe the hapless soul in John 9 was born blind simply so Jesus could heal him. He was born blind, bad news, and Jesus healed him because he was doing the will of Him who sent him.
And I survived a class 4 hurricane myself, and saw miracle after miracle in the aftermath. God worked mightily in that situation to protect His kids. Did God invent and send H. Hugo to devastate the area so we could learn about ourselves from it? I don't think so. I think the freakin' devil sent the freakin' hurricane, and God protected His people and provided their every need because, well, because He's God.
My goal in life is to know God. I realize I'll never know everything while I'm in this life. But I haven't seen anything yet to suggest that God beats the crap out of people so they will learn about Him or themselves or whatever.
But didn't you say God does all things ... so God caused the "naturally occuring event".
You seem to feel when people disagree with you, they are upset so you take that as ... well I won't discuss this becasue you are upset, and I take it as .. you won't discuss it becasue you disagree.
I agree people should agree with me, because I am right ... but I usually take the time to try to correct their ill conceived ideas.
But I don't see much progress here, we still don't know why God allows evil to exist. Why didn't he just make us perfect and happy all the time?
Bill,
When someone tells me that my communications to them are long and tortuous and in that I still didn't answer them it's tells me it's time to take a break. You can take that any way you want, it doesn't mean the way you take it is truth. I already said in other posts it's not about whether people believe me or not, maybe it is for you but I'm not you. I just say what I know and you decide, you can take it or leave it since it's not important that you or anyone else agree with me.
You said..."so God caused the "nautally occuring event". You don't need me to answer that for you in your mind when you can clearly read it for yourself and I'll pose it to you in a question ...Did God CAUSE the event that led to boils all over Job's body? Did God cause the blind mand to be blind from birth? And was that because he or his parents sinned like the disciples asked and many are asking here? What was the purpose of the boils all over Job and what was the purose of the blind man being born blind?
I believe God who says "I the lord do ALL THINGS" if you or others don't believe him just say it. You don't need to take me to task on that, take God to task on it. I don't believe it just because it's written I believe it because I know it in my own experience with God. I can accept you don't believe or others don't believe God how is it you cannot accept that I do believe it, but instead ask me to prove it to you somehow as if I could?!
Could the blind man cause them who demanded of him an answer to how he came to see make them see the answer? Though the blind man answered them it sure didn't stop them from demanding an answer though did it? And when they were suffenciently frustrated with him they threw him out. Why? You answer that for yourself but as for me it's because they could not hear or see except God cause them to. If you don't "agree" with what I beleive just say so. I believe God who says I open eyes and close them. If you don't beleive him take him to task on it, he's the only one who can cause us to hear or see or believe truth or beleive lies.
If you believed God as you say you do you would know him and you would beleive those who believe him and know him. If you don't beleive God you won't beleive me either because what I say I know and that not of myself but of Him by his Spirit.
I don't know what kind of progress you're trying to make here. You say there's not much progress because you still don't know why God allows evil to exist. I say I BELIEVE HIM who says....I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things. See now that I, even I, am he, and there is no god with me: I kill, and I make alive; I wound, and I heal: neither is there any that can deliver out of my hand.
If you don't believe HIM or me who does beleive him then just say it! If you must take someone to task for it take God to task for it because only HE can cause you to see what he says! Only God can open eyes and release us from bondage it's what the Christ does...I the LORD have called thee in righteousness, and will hold thine hand, and will keep thee, and give thee for a covenant of the people, for a light of the Gentiles;
To open the blind eyes, to bring out the prisoners from the prison, and them that sit in darkness out of the prison house.
I have visited here because I rejoice in the works of God as you all testify how your eyes have been opened and you have been released from the bondage of your former prision. If you don't ascrible the glory of that to God just say it...and some have. But I DO. If you want to blame others for being suckered in to that organization and then take the glory by your own reasonings and wisdom for leaving thereby elevating yourself from your brothers and sisters who are too stupid to leave who aren't able like yourselves to figure out "this ISN'T the way" go for it, I could care less. But as for me I believe God opens eyes and ears and understanding and that God places us in bondage and that God releases us. I believe it's for his own glory and honor and because of his love that he does all things. If you don't believe it just say it, but don't expect me to prove these things to you, beause my only proof is my belief in God and my own witness of the Spirit in my life and some have stated they don't believe he does these things. And I don't take them to task on their beleifs I just ask if they have considered these things. That's for them to answer for themselves and it's the sole purpose of me asking.
As to your last question..."Why didn't he just make us perfect and happy all the time?" So why are there trials and tribulations and parched and dry gound where people thirst and suffer and cry for releif and help instead of happy all the time? When Jeshurun waxes fat he kicks because he is waxed fat and he forsakes the God who made him and he lightly esteems the Rock of his salvation provoking God to jeaslousy while he sacrafices to devils and not to God. Of the Rock that begot Jeshurun he is unmindful and forgets the God who formed him.
You don't have to believe God here and if you don't just say so. But if not you will continue to be placed in this situation over and over again until you can see (and that by the hand of God) God and the truth in all he says and all he does.
And what situation is that? The one where you sacrifice to things OTHER than God. The sacrifics you made were to the way international and not to God. Even the people here have said it, they don't have a problem with God just the Way international and since they've left they feel freer to seek God or know God because they beleived what men told them to do as a way of pleasing God. Well it was to the way international that all their sacrifices were made in the name of God before they left. But don't let this fall on relgions, some people make all their sacrfices to jobs, or spouses, or material things, or drugs, or physical appearance, or health, or even family,or attaing great wisdom. These are the things they beleive they will find peace and happiness in and people will make sacrifices time and time again to attain happiness in these things.
But who will sacrifice a thing like just believing God? If men ask for belief, men will grant it to men, but if God asks for belief will men believe him? Will men believe all the things God says about his own self? Though men want to believe and even believe they believe they CANNOT believe unless God cause them to believe, what don't you know that even your faith is a gift from God and not of yourselves? The man who spoke to Christ knew it when he said Lord I believe HELP my UNBELIEF. That man CONSIDERED that his belief NEEDED to come from God!
First be comforted in... Fear not, thou worm Jacob, and ye men of Israel; I will help thee, saith the LORD, and thy redeemer, the Holy One of Israel.
Then understand who does these things...Behold, I will make thee a new sharp threshing instrument having teeth: thou shalt thresh the mountains, and beat them small, and shalt make the hills as chaff. Thou shalt fan them, and the wind shall carry them away, and the whirlwind shall scatter them: and thou shalt rejoice in the LORD, and shalt glory in the Holy One of Israel.
Then is the result of the process...When the poor and needy seek water, and there is none, and their tongue faileth for thirst, I the LORD will hear them, I the God of Israel will not forsake them. I will open rivers in high places, and fountains in the midst of the valleys: I will make the wilderness a pool of water, and the dry land springs of water. I will plant in the wilderness the cedar, the dangtah tree, and the myrtle, and the oil tree; I will set in the desert the fir tree, and the pine, and the box tree together:
Why? This is the purpose....That they may see, and know, and consider, and understand together, that the hand of the LORD hath done this, and the Holy One of Israel hath created it.
Though I tell you this until the day you experience it and that by the Spirit of God who causes you to see it and hear it and undertand it...you will not beleive it or know it to be true.
If simply reading the bible and believing what you read and understanding english is all that was necessary to find truth...ALL MEN who read and understand english would already have come to the truth and there wouldn't be 5000 denonimations and religions who all claim their foundation is the bible even though they are at odds with each other and what God says.
It's not that the bible is god, I believe and know the GOD of the bible. Have you considered there is a difference? Matthew, Mark, Luke, John, Paul ect...these are men who you call "the bible" and rightly so for they are and were the epistles of God written in the flesh who's words you now read. They are the living word in the flesh, and theres' no mystery to that for God said that was the new covenant, he would take his laws and write them IN YOUR HEART. Do you supposes these men knew at the time they would forever be known as the "bible"? Did they have a road map doctrine to read as they lived with Christ? Men READ them! Their lives and their account of their lives as to what they witnessed and did IS what you call the new testiment of the bible. Clay touched on this himself in some of his more recent posts in this thread.
... I don't believe it just because it's written I believe it because I know it in my own experience with God. I can accept you don't believe or others don't believe God how is it you cannot accept that I do believe it,
If you don't "agree" with what I beleive just say so. I believe God who says I open eyes and close them. If you don't beleive him take him to task on it, he's the only one who can cause us to hear or see or believe truth or beleive lies.
If you believed God as you say you do you would know him and you would beleive those who believe him and know him. If you don't beleive God you won't beleive me either because what I say I know and that not of myself but of Him by his Spirit.
I don't know what kind of progress you're trying to make here. You say there's not much progress because you still don't know why God allows evil to exist. I say I BELIEVE HIM who says....I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil:
If you don't believe HIM or me who does beleive him then just say it! If you must take someone to task for it take God to task for it because only HE can cause you to see what he says! Only God can open eyes and release us from bondage
If you don't believe it just say it, but don't expect me to prove these things to you, beause my only proof is my belief in God and my own witness of the Spirit in my life
You don't have to believe God here and if you don't just say so. But if not you will continue to be placed in this situation over and over again until you can see (and that by the hand of God) God and the truth in all he says and all he does.
ThoughI tell you this until the day you experience it and that by the Spirit of God who causes you to see it and hear it and undertand it...you will not beleive it or know it to be true.
OK, these show why didactic is a good word for your preachings. You repeatedly give two options ... believe like you think, or admit I just don't believe in God. I really don't think I was ever so close minded.
If you want to blame others for being suckered in to that organization and then take the glory by your own reasonings and wisdom for leaving thereby elevating yourself from your brothers and sisters who are too stupid to leave who aren't able like yourselves to figure out "this ISN'T the way" go for it, I could care less.
Actually I said I decided to get in and decided to get out. That was in response to you saying we had decided to get in, but God delivered us out.
As to your last question..."Why didn't he just make us perfect and happy all the time?"
This is a basic philosophical question ... the problem of evil .. if God is all good, why does he allow evil to exist? I'm not convinced your answer, that God IS evil, is satisfactory.
Do you think the Devil is God's messenger? Or did he fall from grace by free will? I think biblically ... it is something like "darkness was found in Lucifer" ... like it wasn't exactly created there. But whether you strictly adhere to the Bible or not, it is a difficult question.
No she wasn't, it was about the results no matter what negative thing comes your way.
The things seen by way of your own perspective not hers.
(snip)
see, cman, I didn't at all get that from CC9's posts. I admit I couldn't read past the first 3 or 4, but the following snips from the first few seemed to make his/her position very clear regarding his/her opinion on where bondage, sickness, death and what have you comes from. if he/she later clarified his/her position to what you stated above, I missed it.
I was wondering if anyone here has considered who it was that placed them in the bondage of this particular religion and who it was that also delivered them from it? I hear alot of hurt and pain concerning having been in this religion but I hear very little comments on who it is that placed them in it or who it was that delivered them from it.
I'd like you all to considered that it is God who does all things. I'm wondering if you have considered that you were exactly where God wanted you, both before during and after.
(snip)
Certainly you all know that Israel was placed, sent even, to Egpyt and then delivered from it.
(snip)
(snip)
I believe God does all things. I believe he sets up kings and takes them down, I believe he creates vessels of honor and vessels of dishonor and that each are for the purposes of Gods will.
(snip)
My original questions was to cause you to consider that the experience and the delivering from it (for who ever needed to be delivered from a great and wonderful thing?) was so that you might know that it is HE who loved you and brought you to it and through it that your eyes might behold him, and your witness of His works would declare his name and might thoughout all the earth.
(snip)
Those people who believe that way will turn back from him when they are first introduced to the reality that He also creates vipers, and sends them among the people to bite them that they might die (as in Moses time in the wilderness) unless they look upon that very viper as having come from God (as in the viper constructed and lifted up on the pole by Moses).
(snip)
I don't hear priase to God who delivered you from the bondage he first placed you in. I hear now that you're free, anger at that viper that bit you.
and this last post of this morning seems to make it even more clear... and on top of that, if we believe God we will believe CC9 because he/she is speaking by the spirit, otherwise God will just keep teaching us the same lesson.
Bill,
(snip)
You said..."so God caused the "nautally occuring event". You don't need me to answer that for you in your mind when you can clearly read it for yourself and I'll pose it to you in a question ...Did God CAUSE the event that led to boils all over Job's body? Did God cause the blind mand to be blind from birth? And was that because he or his parents sinned like the disciples asked and many are asking here? What was the purpose of the boils all over Job and what was the purose of the blind man being born blind?
I believe God who says "I the lord do ALL THINGS" if you or others don't believe him just say it. You don't need to take me to task on that, take God to task on it. I don't believe it just because it's written I believe it because I know it in my own experience with God. I can accept you don't believe or others don't believe God how is it you cannot accept that I do believe it, but instead ask me to prove it to you somehow as if I could?!
(snip)
If you believed God as you say you do you would know him and you would beleive those who believe him and know him. If you don't beleive God you won't beleive me either because what I say I know and that not of myself but of Him by his Spirit.
(snip)
You don't have to believe God here and if you don't just say so. But if not you will continue to be placed in this situation over and over again until you can see (and that by the hand of God) God and the truth in all he says and all he does.
I believe God, but I don't believe this particular interpretation of the bible.
If you added up all the hours the posters here have spent reading the Bible, doing word studies, taking class after class after class and generally squeezing Greek words until they turn blue, it would probably total somewhere in the gazillions.
Is it possible we have missed that golden kernel of TRUTH that we pursued so diligently?
Yes, it is possible.
But, speaking only for myself, I would have to say "I don't think so."
Why?
Because I don't really believe there is some magical, mystical, "end-all" piece of wisdom waiting to be discovered.
Wierwille used this elusive method like a carrot on a stick to keep us coming back for more----and more--- and more.
VP was quite fond of using thinly cloaked sarcasm to belittle anyone who disagreed with him.
Even as early as the PLAF class you can see evidence of this.
Remember the part where he teaches about "apatheia"?
(I have to paraphrase some of this stuff because it's been over 35 years since I first took the class.)
He talks about how a man hears "The Word" but still chooses not to believe.
"If a man chooses to be STUPID!", he says, "let him be STUPID!"
Of course, what he is really implying is that if you disagree with what he is saying, "you are STUPID!"
Now, you don't really want to be STUPID!, do you?
For me, it is really quite simple.
I believe God was telling the TRUTH when he told us He is light and that there is no darkness at all in Him.
I believe He was telling the TRUTH when He declared Himself to be "love".
I DON'T believe He causes misery and suffering to befall our lives, though I think it pleases Him to see us learn valuable lessons from bad situations.
I'm content to try to treat my fellow man with kindness, respect and fairness.
I try to glean some knowledge and wisdom from the curve balls that life hurls my way.
Beyond that, it's just an exercise in philosophy as far as I'm concerned.
i think she meant that if you don't believe what she is saying
then that is fine, no problem, what you believe is not wrong either
you are free to believe whatever you want to
she never accused you or anyone of being wrong
just pointing out our own selves
who we are is not wrong
believing anything will boil down to truth eventually
cause all is of God
Clay,
That's just what I'm saying. What I write is for consideration. What is being considered is what we believe. It's not whether what you believe is right or whether what I believe is right but simply WHAT DO YOU BELIEVE? And I point out that hardships cause us to look at that. To look at what we believe honesty, to take stock of ourselves in truth. And also if you have questions about it through hardships God has answers some of which we believe and some we don't.
I started with asking some to consider they were placed in bondage and delivered from bondage. Some disagreed (don't believe that) some do who knows. After that I was asked if I believe it, my answer is YES I do. After that it was demanded of me why or how I could believe that by those who don't beleive it. Some wanted me to clarify evil, some satan, some asked for doctrine. It got side tracked into other areas which happens often.
Some have expressed what they learned about other men...ie liars, decievers, dishonest. I just shifted that a moment and ask what did you learn about yourselves and or about God in all of this? The answers are as various as there are people. What we learn is what we learn. I ascribe it to the glory of God others don't. One thing is for sure we all ascribe it to the things we believe.
If you say you don't believe that I say, OK! It's said for consideration.
yes, we all do. in this thread I've been accused of speaking in anger and hate when all I felt was annoyance, which is understandable because CC9 doesn't know me. I can't understand a God who hates his people enough to put them in positions to be raped, beaten, killed. to me that's the devil, or just random stuff that happens in life because this world sucks. it's not the work of a benevolent, loving God. CC9 can keep his/her God, it's fine. I've never understood the logistical gymnastics people go through to make Jesus God and the son of God at the same time, or to make God kill people because he so loved the world, etc. that he has to teach them a lesson to make them repent. whatever. some people need that, I guess.
even the Corinthians I think it was were saying 'let us do evil that good may come'.
Looking that up can shed a bit of light for some.
I'm at work right now and no time.
Misunderstanding the reality and illusion of evil and how it happens. and why.
Misunderstanding what you are trying your best to communicate.
Then there is to the pure all things are pure.
Just takes a bit of the spirit showing us how this is true.
Best hang on to love, cause it's a hell of a ride.
Let's let peace rule, we are all going to know.
And continue to grow in wisdom.
In this life and the one to come.
Which has come, is coming and will come.
-
one more thing
we as humans misunderstand or mistake intents
this must be taken into consideration with all
I hear ya clay,
These days I can really appreciate and understand more fully this saying....What then? notwithstanding, every way, whether in pretence, or in truth, Christ is preached; and I therein do rejoice, yea, and will rejoice.
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cman
Well shoot why is anyone saying anything or listening?
We ARE witnessing our own words as well as others?
I think perhaps a dictionary or thesaurus might be useful for that word.
First hand accounts is witnessing as well as just speaking with one another about stuff.
And why do you want to put anyone down with that comment?
This is you witnessing yourself.
Perhaps read the whole thread again.
I see questions asked and questions answered.
But the answers do not suit some, or are not understood.
But why try to to make it what it is not?
I'm going to talk as well as anyone else wants to.
And listen to what someone says, and ask for clarification if I don't get it.
Welcome to Life.
Seems you are at least listening to this witness and witnesses.
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Watered Garden
CMan I apologize if I have caused you one milimicron of a nanosecond of the slightest displeasure. I will no longer post on this thread. I was trying to learn something but apparently that's not a good idea.
Once again, my apologies to all. I apparently mistook a sermon for a discussion.
WG
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cman
You asked questions and was involved WG.
Why do you call it a sermon?
Just because we are talking about God?
Isn't that rather ridiculous?
Disagree all you want, call it a sermon.
It's insulting to you.
This is just what cattcar9 was saying.
Events and things let us view ourselves.
If we look.
And possibly change.
You will anyway.
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TheHighWay
You know, I really was trying to follow this thread with an open mind, but I think Waysider has it right:
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Watered Garden
Yup.
WG
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rhino
Didactic ... good word.
It did seem CC9 was preaching ... if we don't accept her truth, she will shake the dust off her feet and go to the next door. (or is CC9 a he?)
Ding Dong.
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potato
rhino, that was my feeling and why my prickles went up right away. seems like someone new will regularly pop in to teach us some lesson that we're obviously missing from the bible. I actually come here for a different reason entirely. they're free to sermonize I guess but I don't feel thankful in the least for it and I find it a bit insulting to assume anyone here has missed their valuable lesson delivered in a few easy paragraphs. I'm perfectly ok with people asking legit questions or just coming in to join a discussion, but I'm really not here so random people can try to save my soul. I will work out my own salvation and learn from the examples I see of both right and wrong.
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cman
She did not try to change anyone.
She stated and explained another view.
In every post she behaved well and did not push a soul into anything.
But some know what she was saying.
And what works in some hearts,
may not be the same working as the one who was speaking.
But there is ONE SPIRIT.
And her words stirred the spirit of some.
To know ourselves and our spirit.
Whether we agree exactly with what she said or not.
That don't matter.
What matters is PROGRESS.
This happens with many all the time.
-----------
Thanks for posting cattcar9.
I'm ready for more.
And whenever you are, I'll be around.
Love, cman
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potato
cman, she suggested we look at our experiences from another perspective (hers), and it came off as preachy. I followed her statements through to a conclusion that I find horrifying, that God hurts people, or hurts or kills those they love, to teach them something. I'm simply not interested in a God like that, I find the concept repulsive. yeah, I was rude in telling her to keep her God to herself if that's what she believes, and she's free to preach a hateful God all she likes because she's free to view God as she likes, but I might be offended at the expectation that I should consider believing what she thinks because it will be good for me. there's a good reason I don't visit the doctrinal thread much and why I do most of my reading and posting in About the Way.
(edited for grammatical error)
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Watered Garden
Cman, if you look on about page 7 of the Open Forum, there is a thread on the video class "Secrets of the Vine" by Dr. Bruce Wilkinson, who is also the author of "The Prayer of Jabez" that deals with much the same thing as CC9 was proclaiming. That is why I asked him/her if s/he had taken this class or read the book. I disagree with the POV expressed in both instances, but at least the class stated it clearly. When I asked for clarification and simplification, I got jumped on by both of you.
If CC9 doesn't want to discuss anything in any style other than his/her own, that's fine. But I am not getting anything out of it, other than, as Potato suggested, that God does things to people that are painful in order to teach them something or heal them of the disease HE gave them in the first place.
Have I learned anything by being diabetic? Why I most certainly have, but from doctors, nurses and PA-C's not from God. I am learning a LOT of self-discipline regarding what I eat, which is damn little of anything these days, so I guess you could say God is teaching me self-discipline, not through His Word or through revelation, but through a glucometer.
In fact, if God wants me to learn a lesson, I find He uses His Word or another person rather than sickness, disease, death, or diabetes for that matter.
For that matter, I don't believe the hapless soul in John 9 was born blind simply so Jesus could heal him. He was born blind, bad news, and Jesus healed him because he was doing the will of Him who sent him.
And I survived a class 4 hurricane myself, and saw miracle after miracle in the aftermath. God worked mightily in that situation to protect His kids. Did God invent and send H. Hugo to devastate the area so we could learn about ourselves from it? I don't think so. I think the freakin' devil sent the freakin' hurricane, and God protected His people and provided their every need because, well, because He's God.
My goal in life is to know God. I realize I'll never know everything while I'm in this life. But I haven't seen anything yet to suggest that God beats the crap out of people so they will learn about Him or themselves or whatever.
WG
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cman
potato,
No she wasn't, it was about the results no matter what negative thing comes your way.
The things seen by way of your own perspective not hers.
In the beginning was God, He is the source but not the cause.
Those vary, although at the root you can see God.
Where it started.
Looking at troubles and things in a more godly light.
Rather then good and evil, god and the devil.
Which are both in us.
We bring out the good and godly in the face of evil.
Everyone has stories of the bad.
I do, you do everyone.
What are we to do about it?
Then we begin to to be free of those things.
Don't blame the snake for biting.
It is what it was designed to do.
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cattcar9
Bill,
When someone tells me that my communications to them are long and tortuous and in that I still didn't answer them it's tells me it's time to take a break. You can take that any way you want, it doesn't mean the way you take it is truth. I already said in other posts it's not about whether people believe me or not, maybe it is for you but I'm not you. I just say what I know and you decide, you can take it or leave it since it's not important that you or anyone else agree with me.
You said..."so God caused the "nautally occuring event". You don't need me to answer that for you in your mind when you can clearly read it for yourself and I'll pose it to you in a question ...Did God CAUSE the event that led to boils all over Job's body? Did God cause the blind mand to be blind from birth? And was that because he or his parents sinned like the disciples asked and many are asking here? What was the purpose of the boils all over Job and what was the purose of the blind man being born blind?
I believe God who says "I the lord do ALL THINGS" if you or others don't believe him just say it. You don't need to take me to task on that, take God to task on it. I don't believe it just because it's written I believe it because I know it in my own experience with God. I can accept you don't believe or others don't believe God how is it you cannot accept that I do believe it, but instead ask me to prove it to you somehow as if I could?!
Could the blind man cause them who demanded of him an answer to how he came to see make them see the answer? Though the blind man answered them it sure didn't stop them from demanding an answer though did it? And when they were suffenciently frustrated with him they threw him out. Why? You answer that for yourself but as for me it's because they could not hear or see except God cause them to. If you don't "agree" with what I beleive just say so. I believe God who says I open eyes and close them. If you don't beleive him take him to task on it, he's the only one who can cause us to hear or see or believe truth or beleive lies.
If you believed God as you say you do you would know him and you would beleive those who believe him and know him. If you don't beleive God you won't beleive me either because what I say I know and that not of myself but of Him by his Spirit.
I don't know what kind of progress you're trying to make here. You say there's not much progress because you still don't know why God allows evil to exist. I say I BELIEVE HIM who says....I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things. See now that I, even I, am he, and there is no god with me: I kill, and I make alive; I wound, and I heal: neither is there any that can deliver out of my hand.
If you don't believe HIM or me who does beleive him then just say it! If you must take someone to task for it take God to task for it because only HE can cause you to see what he says! Only God can open eyes and release us from bondage it's what the Christ does...I the LORD have called thee in righteousness, and will hold thine hand, and will keep thee, and give thee for a covenant of the people, for a light of the Gentiles;
To open the blind eyes, to bring out the prisoners from the prison, and them that sit in darkness out of the prison house.
I have visited here because I rejoice in the works of God as you all testify how your eyes have been opened and you have been released from the bondage of your former prision. If you don't ascrible the glory of that to God just say it...and some have. But I DO. If you want to blame others for being suckered in to that organization and then take the glory by your own reasonings and wisdom for leaving thereby elevating yourself from your brothers and sisters who are too stupid to leave who aren't able like yourselves to figure out "this ISN'T the way" go for it, I could care less. But as for me I believe God opens eyes and ears and understanding and that God places us in bondage and that God releases us. I believe it's for his own glory and honor and because of his love that he does all things. If you don't believe it just say it, but don't expect me to prove these things to you, beause my only proof is my belief in God and my own witness of the Spirit in my life and some have stated they don't believe he does these things. And I don't take them to task on their beleifs I just ask if they have considered these things. That's for them to answer for themselves and it's the sole purpose of me asking.
As to your last question..."Why didn't he just make us perfect and happy all the time?" So why are there trials and tribulations and parched and dry gound where people thirst and suffer and cry for releif and help instead of happy all the time? When Jeshurun waxes fat he kicks because he is waxed fat and he forsakes the God who made him and he lightly esteems the Rock of his salvation provoking God to jeaslousy while he sacrafices to devils and not to God. Of the Rock that begot Jeshurun he is unmindful and forgets the God who formed him.
You don't have to believe God here and if you don't just say so. But if not you will continue to be placed in this situation over and over again until you can see (and that by the hand of God) God and the truth in all he says and all he does.
And what situation is that? The one where you sacrifice to things OTHER than God. The sacrifics you made were to the way international and not to God. Even the people here have said it, they don't have a problem with God just the Way international and since they've left they feel freer to seek God or know God because they beleived what men told them to do as a way of pleasing God. Well it was to the way international that all their sacrifices were made in the name of God before they left. But don't let this fall on relgions, some people make all their sacrfices to jobs, or spouses, or material things, or drugs, or physical appearance, or health, or even family,or attaing great wisdom. These are the things they beleive they will find peace and happiness in and people will make sacrifices time and time again to attain happiness in these things.
But who will sacrifice a thing like just believing God? If men ask for belief, men will grant it to men, but if God asks for belief will men believe him? Will men believe all the things God says about his own self? Though men want to believe and even believe they believe they CANNOT believe unless God cause them to believe, what don't you know that even your faith is a gift from God and not of yourselves? The man who spoke to Christ knew it when he said Lord I believe HELP my UNBELIEF. That man CONSIDERED that his belief NEEDED to come from God!
First be comforted in... Fear not, thou worm Jacob, and ye men of Israel; I will help thee, saith the LORD, and thy redeemer, the Holy One of Israel.
Then understand who does these things...Behold, I will make thee a new sharp threshing instrument having teeth: thou shalt thresh the mountains, and beat them small, and shalt make the hills as chaff. Thou shalt fan them, and the wind shall carry them away, and the whirlwind shall scatter them: and thou shalt rejoice in the LORD, and shalt glory in the Holy One of Israel.
Then is the result of the process...When the poor and needy seek water, and there is none, and their tongue faileth for thirst, I the LORD will hear them, I the God of Israel will not forsake them. I will open rivers in high places, and fountains in the midst of the valleys: I will make the wilderness a pool of water, and the dry land springs of water. I will plant in the wilderness the cedar, the dangtah tree, and the myrtle, and the oil tree; I will set in the desert the fir tree, and the pine, and the box tree together:
Why? This is the purpose....That they may see, and know, and consider, and understand together, that the hand of the LORD hath done this, and the Holy One of Israel hath created it.
Though I tell you this until the day you experience it and that by the Spirit of God who causes you to see it and hear it and undertand it...you will not beleive it or know it to be true.
If simply reading the bible and believing what you read and understanding english is all that was necessary to find truth...ALL MEN who read and understand english would already have come to the truth and there wouldn't be 5000 denonimations and religions who all claim their foundation is the bible even though they are at odds with each other and what God says.
It's not that the bible is god, I believe and know the GOD of the bible. Have you considered there is a difference? Matthew, Mark, Luke, John, Paul ect...these are men who you call "the bible" and rightly so for they are and were the epistles of God written in the flesh who's words you now read. They are the living word in the flesh, and theres' no mystery to that for God said that was the new covenant, he would take his laws and write them IN YOUR HEART. Do you supposes these men knew at the time they would forever be known as the "bible"? Did they have a road map doctrine to read as they lived with Christ? Men READ them! Their lives and their account of their lives as to what they witnessed and did IS what you call the new testiment of the bible. Clay touched on this himself in some of his more recent posts in this thread.
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rhino
OK, these show why didactic is a good word for your preachings. You repeatedly give two options ... believe like you think, or admit I just don't believe in God. I really don't think I was ever so close minded.
Actually I said I decided to get in and decided to get out. That was in response to you saying we had decided to get in, but God delivered us out.This is a basic philosophical question ... the problem of evil .. if God is all good, why does he allow evil to exist? I'm not convinced your answer, that God IS evil, is satisfactory.
Do you think the Devil is God's messenger? Or did he fall from grace by free will? I think biblically ... it is something like "darkness was found in Lucifer" ... like it wasn't exactly created there. But whether you strictly adhere to the Bible or not, it is a difficult question.
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potato
see, cman, I didn't at all get that from CC9's posts. I admit I couldn't read past the first 3 or 4, but the following snips from the first few seemed to make his/her position very clear regarding his/her opinion on where bondage, sickness, death and what have you comes from. if he/she later clarified his/her position to what you stated above, I missed it.
and this last post of this morning seems to make it even more clear... and on top of that, if we believe God we will believe CC9 because he/she is speaking by the spirit, otherwise God will just keep teaching us the same lesson.
I believe God, but I don't believe this particular interpretation of the bible.
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waysider
Ya know
If you added up all the hours the posters here have spent reading the Bible, doing word studies, taking class after class after class and generally squeezing Greek words until they turn blue, it would probably total somewhere in the gazillions.
Is it possible we have missed that golden kernel of TRUTH that we pursued so diligently?
Yes, it is possible.
But, speaking only for myself, I would have to say "I don't think so."
Why?
Because I don't really believe there is some magical, mystical, "end-all" piece of wisdom waiting to be discovered.
Wierwille used this elusive method like a carrot on a stick to keep us coming back for more----and more--- and more.
VP was quite fond of using thinly cloaked sarcasm to belittle anyone who disagreed with him.
Even as early as the PLAF class you can see evidence of this.
Remember the part where he teaches about "apatheia"?
(I have to paraphrase some of this stuff because it's been over 35 years since I first took the class.)
He talks about how a man hears "The Word" but still chooses not to believe.
"If a man chooses to be STUPID!", he says, "let him be STUPID!"
Of course, what he is really implying is that if you disagree with what he is saying, "you are STUPID!"
Now, you don't really want to be STUPID!, do you?
For me, it is really quite simple.
I believe God was telling the TRUTH when he told us He is light and that there is no darkness at all in Him.
I believe He was telling the TRUTH when He declared Himself to be "love".
I DON'T believe He causes misery and suffering to befall our lives, though I think it pleases Him to see us learn valuable lessons from bad situations.
I'm content to try to treat my fellow man with kindness, respect and fairness.
I try to glean some knowledge and wisdom from the curve balls that life hurls my way.
Beyond that, it's just an exercise in philosophy as far as I'm concerned.
But, hey, maybe that's just me.
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potato
that is beautiful!
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JeffSjo
One of my favorite reads about truth is the book of 1John. I think it reads best when I consider myself as a little child reading a simple writing.
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TheHighWay
Ditto!!
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cman
potato and others who care to listen....
God doing something includes being the cause of it indirectly though knowing.
As we do things and cause things to happen also.
And where is this God acting from.
Where is his base of operations?
We are in him and he in us.
Nothing is separated from man.
Light and darkness anmd God and the Devil.
It is the God of the Hebrews and the God of all.
Can you see how as it says that -
Light shined out of darkness? Corinthians somewhwere I think.
And also there is no darkness in him?
He is both and all.
A one way view is limited to one way.
Just a word study on these key words can open our eyes.
darkness
light
life
living
death
dieing
dead
sickness and related words
And to see how these things were done, handled and the outcome.
Everyone has all those words I listed.
One could find out more of what we are inside.
Even have an inside out party.
To see that God and the Devil are not separate entities from ourselves.
Neither is anything, cause it's all been put in us and with us.
As a side note also-
if God is spirit then what is the word for spirit?
in him we live and move and have our being
without him we would not be
But what would God be?
God's doing....
It's actually already been done-
if one can think that wide and broad
-----
rhino,
i think she meant that if you don't believe what she is saying
then that is fine, no problem, what you believe is not wrong either
you are free to believe whatever you want to
she never accused you or anyone of being wrong
just pointing out our own selves
who we are is not wrong
believing anything will boil down to truth eventually
cause all is of God
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cattcar9
Clay,
That's just what I'm saying. What I write is for consideration. What is being considered is what we believe. It's not whether what you believe is right or whether what I believe is right but simply WHAT DO YOU BELIEVE? And I point out that hardships cause us to look at that. To look at what we believe honesty, to take stock of ourselves in truth. And also if you have questions about it through hardships God has answers some of which we believe and some we don't.
I started with asking some to consider they were placed in bondage and delivered from bondage. Some disagreed (don't believe that) some do who knows. After that I was asked if I believe it, my answer is YES I do. After that it was demanded of me why or how I could believe that by those who don't beleive it. Some wanted me to clarify evil, some satan, some asked for doctrine. It got side tracked into other areas which happens often.
Some have expressed what they learned about other men...ie liars, decievers, dishonest. I just shifted that a moment and ask what did you learn about yourselves and or about God in all of this? The answers are as various as there are people. What we learn is what we learn. I ascribe it to the glory of God others don't. One thing is for sure we all ascribe it to the things we believe.
If you say you don't believe that I say, OK! It's said for consideration.
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cman
Yeah, catt,
even the Corinthians I think it was were saying 'let us do evil that good may come'.
Looking that up can shed a bit of light for some.
I'm at work right now and no time.
Misunderstanding the reality and illusion of evil and how it happens. and why.
Misunderstanding what you are trying your best to communicate.
Then there is to the pure all things are pure.
Just takes a bit of the spirit showing us how this is true.
Best hang on to love, cause it's a hell of a ride.
Let's let peace rule, we are all going to know.
And continue to grow in wisdom.
In this life and the one to come.
Which has come, is coming and will come.
-
one more thing
we as humans misunderstand or mistake intents
this must be taken into consideration with all
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potato
yes, we all do. in this thread I've been accused of speaking in anger and hate when all I felt was annoyance, which is understandable because CC9 doesn't know me. I can't understand a God who hates his people enough to put them in positions to be raped, beaten, killed. to me that's the devil, or just random stuff that happens in life because this world sucks. it's not the work of a benevolent, loving God. CC9 can keep his/her God, it's fine. I've never understood the logistical gymnastics people go through to make Jesus God and the son of God at the same time, or to make God kill people because he so loved the world, etc. that he has to teach them a lesson to make them repent. whatever. some people need that, I guess.
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cman
People kill people.
Whatever you think about God will change.
Guaranteed.
A promise of Light.
A promise of being enlightened.
A promise of transformation.
And a few thousands more.
These will be kept.
No one can out will this power.
It's greater then us yet it is us.
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cattcar9
I hear ya clay,
These days I can really appreciate and understand more fully this saying....What then? notwithstanding, every way, whether in pretence, or in truth, Christ is preached; and I therein do rejoice, yea, and will rejoice.
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