Hope, Power for Abundant Living is what this whole web site is about. It's the only thing we all have in common. Ironically, none of us would be here if we hadn't taken a class called Power for Abundant Living.
So, Garth, do you mean that some ex-TWI people use "mind-control" as an excuse for the hardship they experienced in the Way? Maybe I just don't understand what you're saying. Do you think we got hurt because we didn't take responsibility for our own decisions? To some degree that may be true, but I know abuse really did happen - still happens in there - and we need to be compassionate to those who were abused and come here to GS to talk about it. I think when we claim that "mind control" is an exaggeration of TWI abuse, that's when it feels like we're calling each other liars, just to get attention. Some of us were controlled and hurt more than others. Some stories truly are unbelievable. But when an unbelievable thing happens to you, it helps to have somebody believe it. -Pat
Hope, close. I think there is a point where people could check with people kind of like in real time and get some of the mud first hand from people that were abused. The images we built concerning certain people were easily checked against what they did to people we talked to. Now had I gotten out years ago where would I find people I knew that were abused so I could see the other side? Nameless posters posting accounts might be found hard to swallow when compared to real life experience.
But when reports by several nameless posters are consistent with one another and collaborating and a person refuses to accept them; then the images one has have become more important than the honest testimonies being placed in plain view before God and every one. Think about it, with all the information that is available why would some one have to hold onto the picture perfect *image* they carry and dispute what they are reading over the rights of some one to tell their story and not revel who they are? Because the image is more important than the facts!
Seaspray.........PFIL was the stepping stone for many to do godly things and for many to become tyrants. It is the same foundation that LCM built his abusive king of the kingdom doctrine and practice. Take this to another thread or take it outside!
And finally Pat S....................................... are you sure there was a complete recovery from that head-on with that pick-up :D--> :D--> :D--> ROTFLMAO....asking Garth what he thinks about brain-washing!!!!!!!!!! :P--> just mention brain washing and watch him go -->
No, we didn't get hurt because we "didn't take responsibility for our own actions". We got hurt because of jerk-off individuals heaping abuse on us in the name of God's Word and wanted us to accept it anyway.
That, however, is not 'mind control', any more than if someone punched you, is that 'mind control' simply because *they* are the ones responsible for punching you, rather than you yourself.
See what I mean by people bandying about of terms like 'mind control' w/o really realizing what the he** it actually means and entails?
I have said time and again that the abuse did occur. And there are those here who can readily attest to that. Where I have my doubts and disagreements refer to what is and is not 'mind control'. Yes Virginia, there is a distinction between the two. And I can (and have many a time) agreed with the accounts of the abuse w/o agreeing with the concept of 'mind control'.
Well at least I have the gonads to take that topic on, rather than taking the easy route of "Ohh well, let's just leave it to the experts, and they'll tell me what I went thru. Yes, Dr. Singer, I was brainwashed, ... I was brainwashed, ... you have the doctorate, I don't, so I'll take your word for it, ... I was brainwashed."
....! And they are the ones telling us to think for ourselves?!?
In the late 80's this "I want proof" was one of the favorite responses when people were coming forth with their stories of bad treatment by Way leadership,adultery and wasting of money among the leadership of the Way.
Also, people would say "How do you know?" "Have you personally talked with that person?" If you said you hadn't talked to the person...you were reproved. If you said you had talked to the person then some people who did not want to know the truth...suddenly they did not want to talk with you about it anymore and you were labeled a number of convenient Way jargon words including "your possessed."
At times, it was a no win situation because the people you were talking to did not want to know the real answer or truth.....they only wanted the person to stop talking about it.
The adultry topic (that it was practiced by leadership and believed not to be wrong) was one of the favorite denials by those "in" wanting "proof."
Paul did not need "proof" when he confronted the Corinthian church in 1Corinthian 5:1... "It is commonly reported that there is fornication among you...."
The simple answer is that a certain number of people in various areas of life do not want to know the truth about certain situations because the truth is 1) to painful 2) crushing blow to your mental strength because of having to admit possibly being wrong 3) you have invested to many years to change now 4) believe that if enough time goes by it will go away.
Of course, none of these four reasons (among others) line up with what the Bible says.
Yeah Grizz, you're right. Sorry about the pop-off.
Thinking about it further, I guess that the 'mind control' answer sounds plausible in some respects, especially to people who is looking for an explanation for what happened, as well as a 'stick' to use in retaliation for the abuses that they suffered while in these respective groups.
Picky ol' me, however, just sees some 'splinters' in that 'stick'. :D--> And how that 'stick' might break, and that we need a better stick perhaps.
And I think that this all fits in with the point that Hope brought up; in making known the abuses in TWI as best we can.
P.S., and stop trying to pick a fight with Seaspray. :D--> That's my job.
Let me clue you in on something. VPW has been dead for 18 years, he hasn't been president of twi in over 20 years. PFAL has not been available in twi for almost 10 years. There are lots and lots of people here at Gspot and still in twi that have NEVER TAKEN PFAL and weren't even born when vpw died.
Are you stuck in some sort of a "Groundhog's Day" scenario? Are you reliving daily the same old thing? If so, you need to read what other people here at Gspot and other Xway sites are saying. What you remember about twi, vpw, pfal, twig (oh, they haven't been called twigs in 10 years) wow (gone-gone-gone, been gone since 95) the corps (still going but weird as all get out) ARE NOT THE TWI YOU REMEMBER.
Starting in the mid 90s that was even one of lcm's slogans "This ain't your fathers twi."
So, back to Hope's point...even if YOU had a grand ole time in twi, there were people that were being hurt, abused and manipulated. Just cause you were off in lalalala land....doesn't mean everybody took that same cruise.
I broke my ankle while in residence in the corps...you didn't see it...does that mean you are going to tell me it didn't happen? It happened whether or not you or anyone else saw it. Lots of people over the years were hurt in ways much more serious than that, just because I didn't see it doesn't mean that it didn't happen, it just means I was looking at something else.
And by the way, I'll bet there's a boatload more PFAL grads here than WAP. What could be the total of new WAP grads? 200? 500? That's probably being generous.
But you're right. Just between us, I did forget about that. Thanks for pointing it out.
either would be better than what I am thinking right now.
this is difficult.
ok a thief will work with money, child molestors surround their life with children in a most dedicated way.
men who rape have certain profiles they are attracted to ...
preditors yes preditors lived in The Way,
It was a system that asked for alot of trust and loyalty to people and God....
good christian folks were taught not to think evil, to forgive and to never ever hurt someones
ministry, allow complete stranger in your home to educate them and bless them .
Walk by the spirit
love one another...
again the list is endless..
What i witnessed was the class became more important than safety much more important...
You can turn it all around and say well you fool how could I have been so trusting?
Well at the time it was unbelief to question the manner things were done.
My problem .
Youth inexperience in life and being involved in this great plan to move the word blinded a lot of young innocent people to the reality of evil.
I do not think I was a victim of twi because I took pfal and chose to believe it content and made foolish decisions that messed up my life.
That I will take responsibility for,, cough hack and grr in hindsight but..I did think and do that.
The sexual abuse is not the same, rape is against the law of our land and Gods law.
Twi said it was above the law of the land and some people were special and innocent because of WHO did the doing of it...
I will not take responsibility for that ever or allow anyone eles to.
Im not talking about sex between adults who are confused in a state of cult and its problems and later regret the problems it made for them that is not rape..
Im saying out and out rape .
out and out thiefs
criminals who look for those they can and will hurt, those who didnt ask for prayer ok?
in fact never needed prayer because life was very good for them in the cult...
Twi made a haven for them and in my case out right protected them .
some had very close ties to the top and hear tell it came down from the top... leadership.
They kept them for a reason.. I do not pretend to know what it all means as far as why but they did .
Brain washed yes to a degree Garth convinced beyond your own self will to accept the unacceptable by our nations standards and laws because somehow
the way knew a higher plan and purpose that mattered more.
Was it about them "getting healed" no it was not .
In the past? do not bring that up again he/she has been forgiven ...
DOYOU want to be guilty of ruining a man of God ministry huh, do you have any idea how serious That charge is??/
worse than rape you know.
These type of criminals know how to work a system that has very little concern for the people they are selling out to God, remember that the sold out IDEA ??? hmmm well lets look at who sold out to what a little more closely..hmmm
no you probably do not and that is why it went on for years and got worse....
It was at times pure intimidation and the weapon was the word of God.....and the sale of pfal and just how important it was to the way ministry...
I can tell you it way far more important than people getting seriously hurt and abused ask the victims or better yet ask the abusers they will tell just how easy it was for them to make a place in the group and stay commited .... move up to high levels of leadership and decide what was best for everyone eles..who would be allowed to do what with whom and just how it was to be.
I made this point of those who made up stories about what they were told happened and believed it to be truth .... I count them just as guilty to this day. They also allow it to continue by blinding their eyes and ears to being honest about the circumstances that prevailed....
But they will say now I didnt know so it wasnt me.
Maybe some didnt know because they didnt want to know...
Many others only think they know and filled in the blanks to help their own position..on someone eles . enemys were made in twi and the easy way to shut some one up was to start talking about them in a very negative way accusing them of outright lies sometimes but also laying out little ideas that the ignorant would run with and soon the very one who may have been honest and on to the truth of a situation was the focus of the gossip and so torn up they would go away or go into denial about what they knew .
But the focus would be off the one who was clever enough with his own agenda to keep it going.
I do not know it or make this up, this was twi for me...
I am glad I am out whew
but I have learned to understand ploys are used by very clever criminals and anything can and will be done for them to be allowed the type of open access they had into peoples lifes in twi.
Even run the pfal class, which is where it all started.
Everyone had a good laugh with the nut case thread hah boy was't he/she a nutty one hahah
I tell some were far more serious than nutty they were and are down right evil preditors...
Twi made a home for them and opened up the door for them which became a serious playing field.
If God protected you from evil be thankful do not judge me as having some kind of lesser spiritual ability or in the depth knowing revelation .
I am reallly angry now and maybe this is a good thing because for all your advanced class **** and waycorps training this was big leadership I am saying and way productions oh how the way corps girls swooned for his abiltiy...to sing those precious songs... everyone loved him.
FOr all your dam training you loved him he was in your group and God protected you HMMM???
Well me and my God took him out and put His sorry *** in jail and gave him a record for life hahah
I still like my God better than yours anyday , He truly loves me and hears me more than any twi person ever did...
all twi people did was kick me out and start another class to feel good about what they accomplished for one another.
I am your freaking hero .
Jesus Christ is mine.
For all you people that want the details so you can talk and compare notes and decide whether it is true or not or who is was or was not.
Watch some reality tv or a soap opera show.
Funny how I lost the ability to give a cr@p what you freaking think isnt it?
I truly heard enough, and paid for loving you enough to think you could also love me more than who was the big shots in the way ministry.
you didnt then and you wont now.
But you will just spend a few more years talking and wondering about it . and possibly slandering me for the saying of it.
Garth, dear ... If it wasn't mind-control, then why is it so hard to get my own thoughts back. Oh boy - I know I'm asking for a lot of heckling with that question. And no more jokes about my head-on, Griz !! As I recall, you were right there praying for me that day. The catscan said I was OK, remember? It's TWI that messed with my mind, not the wreck. Seriously, Garth, I'm still shaking off a lot of screwed up thinking leftover from the Way. Isn't that the same as mind control? From my experience, that's what I'd call it. And you didn't have my experience. Isn't that what Hope is talking about here? -Pat
I don't know when you left twi, or under what circumstances but there are at least 3000 grads of that gawd awful WAP class running around, problably more like 5000. Any pfal grad still with twi has taken wap...twi doesn't let "just anyone" attend their fellowships. People can't just hang out at fellowship for a year before taking wap, in order for their fellowships to be "clean and sactified" twi followers need to be "in the household."
Anyway, my point with all this isn't how many pfal grads vs how many wap grads there are. I was just addressing your response to Hope's request not to turn this thread into a pfal expose. No matter which set of classes people have taken the issue here is the fact that people were hurt in twi whether or not other people saw the hurts being inflicted.
I have a friend that I was in the corps with...sometimes we go years without talking to each other or seeing each other. Whenever we get together part of our time is always spent reminising about our in residence corps experiences. Without exception she will bring up some event and remember it as clear as if it had happened yesterday but I won't remember anything of the sort occuring, and vice versa. She always says "we did?" or "I was there?"... I am likely to tell her it was my evil twin that she remembers doing something or the other.
To dismiss someone elses experiences as not happening, or to accuse them of lying or embellishment is simply another form of denial for some people, Kind of like when you play with a cat or kitten....have you ever seen a cat hide it's head while playing? It totally believes that since it can't see you....you can't see it...never mind the fact that its entire body is sticking out from behind the sofa.
You have got to know that I'm a big fan of yours. I like your stuff. Been reading you since back in the day of Waydale. Don't remember it all, but I was getting the point.
LCM got that right about it not being dear old dad's twi. "Harshness of twi 2" is an understatement. Sounds to me more like "How to turn your own home into a concentration camp".
Vic dead? You got to be kidding. Must have missed it.
Seaspray - Radar is correct about the number of WAP grads who are around. It started running for grads only in 1995. At that time, the number was a bit higher than it is today, and all grads HAD to take it to remain in good TWI standing. So 5000 WAP grads isn't that far off.
A long while back I did a poll asking when people left TWI. There were over 100 responses. About 50% left between 1985 - 1989 with a few who left before VPW died in 1985, the other 50% left after "the fog years" - that's about 1989 to the present. There were also a few brave souls who admitted they were still in.
Remember that GS isn't a Christian forum. It is a forum about The Way International. The whole site is not about PFAL alone - nor is this thread.
Radar - "not everybody took the same cruise" :D--> !! Yeah - some of us were sailing around in the Bermuda Triangle for years!
Hope R. color>size>face>
"And I'm on my way, I don't know where I'm going.I'm on my way, takin' my time but I don't know where." P. Simonsize>
didn't mean anything pointed at you- you brought up some valid points that, IMO, needed to be addressed. that is: the credibility issue and that there is plenty of info available.
quote:The simple answer is that a certain number of people in various areas of life do not want to know the truth about certain situations because the truth is 1) to painful 2) crushing blow to your mental strength because of having to admit possibly being wrong 3) you have invested to many years to change now 4) believe that if enough time goes by it will go away.
Of course, none of these four reasons (among others) line up with what the Bible says.
Paradise Den, I think most ex-TWI folks dont want to address the evils because they want to move on with their life and not focus on the past sins of people. This isn't necessarily denying evil, its just moving on. Is that such a crime?
They don't want to deal with it because they really don't have to. Can you blame them? Why redress the past sins of others (dead long ago) when nothing can be done about it now? And maybe because there is some biblical precedent for not gossiping, not wallowing and incubating, feeding on evil works; not focusing on judging others, etc.
Just as you and me are entitled to focus on what we do, others are entitled to focus on what they want. In short, I don't judge ex-TWI folks who may not want to address this stuff; they are no less of a christian or a person than I am just because they have a different opinion and lifestyle.
Everybody, please, lets skip the formality and drop the uppercase 'S'. All except Rafael (all without exception, with distinction, or without distinction) 1969, of course, and he may address me as Mr. Seaspray. Radar, if you're going to shorten my handle to 'ss', we've got to find a blinking nazi death's head to go with it.
Radar you reminded me that there is a class of people who took WAP and did not take PFAL. These folks are victims of twi too. Anyone who sat through WAP, PFAL grad or not, was a victim.
The GreaseSpot is great. It reminds me of a mini ROA without the music and the WOW burgers. Though I must confess that I do find myself humming old Joyful Noise tunes sometimes when I'm visiting. And every now and then I go to the kitchen and make myself a WOW burger just for the fun of it.
My wife and daughter think I'm a little nuts and always ask me why we can't just call them hamburgers like everyone else. When they do this I jump up with a closed fist in the air and yell, "It's the Word, the Word, and nothing but the Word". They respond with, "Chapter and verse, please". At that point we're stuck and I just say, " Heck with it, let's have an ice cream cone."
I will venture to say that all here, whether reading, writing, or both, are born from above. Most are grads of Power for Abundant Living. If we all are a product of all our yesterdays, that yesterday that we spoke in tongues and knew what it meant is a yesterday we all have in common.
OM-- I don't think anyone is saying don't move on, you must stay and wallow in the past. I think Hope's point is folks who want to deny that anything untoward happened to anybody else cuz it DIDN'T happen to them. You know, maybe a bit like what you may have been say, about a year ago or so. Please do not take this as a rant about you--I believe you have become more willing to consider things as time has gone by. But there are a certain number who certainly match the description in Hope's opening post.
I came to Trancechat and then Waydale as a lurker originally, did not believe the stuff on there initially. Once I found out about someone on J Juedes site who I knew, my ignorance candy-shell began to crack and splinter into pieces. I had a very hard 2 or 3 days while the impact of it all hit me...I had been so clueless and naive. All the old, odd things began to add up. People I knew from the past told me of the sexcapades, women I knew for a long time told me of being groped and propositioned on the coach, etc. I do not feel that I have wallowed in the past, I feel that I know exactly why I am moving on today--because our past was not some fairy tale but people were used and the truth was NOT the standard of twi. I feel those are important things to know if one is going to truly move ahead and live a life of integrity before God and one another......YMMV
I've been dealing with ex-wayfers since 1988 who simply deny abuse happened because they didn't see it. I can't completely blame them, but it does get frustrating.
What gets me more frustrated is when TWI doctrines are shown to be erronious and folks still deny that VPW was wrong cause he was their MOG. They'll disagree with the Bible and back up what VP said!
Hey Jerry B,
thanks for bringing out the PFAL review. I was re-reading that today and finding some folks who posted back then who remind me of some folks who currently post.
It was fun reading again, I even saw some of my old posts, glad you saved it. I think every PFAL grad should read it.
I'm working on a topical index so specific issues will be easier to find. I hope to have it done by the weekend. It's turning out to be a somewhat valuable resource as there's a PFAL class being run here by an offshoot fellowship of staunch Wierwillite Corps grads and one of the newer fellowship members has come to me with her questions. We're going to get together this weekend with her Corps fiancee to discuss it in more depth. won't THAT be fun!:)-->
And I agree, the similarity to some of the posters there with current GS Wierwillites is interesting. Kind of funny, but also sad.
Back to the topic at hand....Speaking of some of those "old, odd" things that Alfakat mentioned, I remember being told that VP suggested to the married men in the Corps that they buy and read Penthouse magazine to help marriages. Can you imagine any other Christian leader suggesting that their married seminary students introduce porn into their marriages? I wonder if VP ever sent a letter to the Penthouse Forum? ;)-->
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seaspray
Hope, Power for Abundant Living is what this whole web site is about. It's the only thing we all have in common. Ironically, none of us would be here if we hadn't taken a class called Power for Abundant Living.
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GarthP2000
"Ironically, none of us would be here if we hadn't taken a class called Power for Abundant Living."
Nahh, we'd be out doing more 'godless', more 'bogus' things, ... like living our lives and achieving our dreams, maybe??
Bummer dude!
Prophet Emeritus of THE,
and Wandering CyberUU Hippie,
Garth P.
www.gapstudioweb.com
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Schwaigers
So, Garth, do you mean that some ex-TWI people use "mind-control" as an excuse for the hardship they experienced in the Way? Maybe I just don't understand what you're saying. Do you think we got hurt because we didn't take responsibility for our own decisions? To some degree that may be true, but I know abuse really did happen - still happens in there - and we need to be compassionate to those who were abused and come here to GS to talk about it. I think when we claim that "mind control" is an exaggeration of TWI abuse, that's when it feels like we're calling each other liars, just to get attention. Some of us were controlled and hurt more than others. Some stories truly are unbelievable. But when an unbelievable thing happens to you, it helps to have somebody believe it. -Pat
schwaiger@direcway.com
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Grizzy
Hope, close. I think there is a point where people could check with people kind of like in real time and get some of the mud first hand from people that were abused. The images we built concerning certain people were easily checked against what they did to people we talked to. Now had I gotten out years ago where would I find people I knew that were abused so I could see the other side? Nameless posters posting accounts might be found hard to swallow when compared to real life experience.
But when reports by several nameless posters are consistent with one another and collaborating and a person refuses to accept them; then the images one has have become more important than the honest testimonies being placed in plain view before God and every one. Think about it, with all the information that is available why would some one have to hold onto the picture perfect *image* they carry and dispute what they are reading over the rights of some one to tell their story and not revel who they are? Because the image is more important than the facts!
Seaspray.........PFIL was the stepping stone for many to do godly things and for many to become tyrants. It is the same foundation that LCM built his abusive king of the kingdom doctrine and practice. Take this to another thread or take it outside!
And finally Pat S....................................... are you sure there was a complete recovery from that head-on with that pick-up
:D--> 
:D--> 
:D--> ROTFLMAO....asking Garth what he thinks about brain-washing!!!!!!!!!! 
:P--> just mention brain washing and watch him go 
-->
Grizzy COLOR>SIZE>
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GarthP2000
Pat,
No, we didn't get hurt because we "didn't take responsibility for our own actions". We got hurt because of jerk-off individuals heaping abuse on us in the name of God's Word and wanted us to accept it anyway.
That, however, is not 'mind control', any more than if someone punched you, is that 'mind control' simply because *they* are the ones responsible for punching you, rather than you yourself.
See what I mean by people bandying about of terms like 'mind control' w/o really realizing what the he** it actually means and entails?
I have said time and again that the abuse did occur. And there are those here who can readily attest to that. Where I have my doubts and disagreements refer to what is and is not 'mind control'. Yes Virginia, there is a distinction between the two. And I can (and have many a time) agreed with the accounts of the abuse w/o agreeing with the concept of 'mind control'.
Thinking minds can do that ya know.
Prophet Emeritus of THE,
and Wandering CyberUU Hippie,
Garth P.
www.gapstudioweb.com
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GarthP2000
Grizz,
Well at least I have the gonads to take that topic on, rather than taking the easy route of "Ohh well, let's just leave it to the experts, and they'll tell me what I went thru. Yes, Dr. Singer, I was brainwashed, ... I was brainwashed, ... you have the doctorate, I don't, so I'll take your word for it, ... I was brainwashed."
Prophet Emeritus of THE,
and Wandering CyberUU Hippie,
Garth P.
www.gapstudioweb.com
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seaspray
Grizzy,
Take what to another thread? Take what outside?
Are you trying to tell me what to do? Why don't you take it outside?
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Grizzy
We agree more on this subject than disagree and I thought you knew that.......
Grizzy COLOR>SIZE>
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Paradiseden
In the late 80's this "I want proof" was one of the favorite responses when people were coming forth with their stories of bad treatment by Way leadership,adultery and wasting of money among the leadership of the Way.
Also, people would say "How do you know?" "Have you personally talked with that person?" If you said you hadn't talked to the person...you were reproved. If you said you had talked to the person then some people who did not want to know the truth...suddenly they did not want to talk with you about it anymore and you were labeled a number of convenient Way jargon words including "your possessed."
At times, it was a no win situation because the people you were talking to did not want to know the real answer or truth.....they only wanted the person to stop talking about it.
The adultry topic (that it was practiced by leadership and believed not to be wrong) was one of the favorite denials by those "in" wanting "proof."
Paul did not need "proof" when he confronted the Corinthian church in 1Corinthian 5:1... "It is commonly reported that there is fornication among you...."
The simple answer is that a certain number of people in various areas of life do not want to know the truth about certain situations because the truth is 1) to painful 2) crushing blow to your mental strength because of having to admit possibly being wrong 3) you have invested to many years to change now 4) believe that if enough time goes by it will go away.
Of course, none of these four reasons (among others) line up with what the Bible says.
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GarthP2000
Yeah Grizz, you're right. Sorry about the pop-off.
Thinking about it further, I guess that the 'mind control' answer sounds plausible in some respects, especially to people who is looking for an explanation for what happened, as well as a 'stick' to use in retaliation for the abuses that they suffered while in these respective groups.
Picky ol' me, however, just sees some 'splinters' in that 'stick'.
:D--> And how that 'stick' might break, and that we need a better stick perhaps.
And I think that this all fits in with the point that Hope brought up; in making known the abuses in TWI as best we can.
P.S., and stop trying to pick a fight with Seaspray.
:D--> That's my job.
Prophet Emeritus of THE,
and Wandering CyberUU Hippie,
Garth P.
www.gapstudioweb.com
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Radar OReilly
Seaspray honey,
Let me clue you in on something. VPW has been dead for 18 years, he hasn't been president of twi in over 20 years. PFAL has not been available in twi for almost 10 years. There are lots and lots of people here at Gspot and still in twi that have NEVER TAKEN PFAL and weren't even born when vpw died.
Are you stuck in some sort of a "Groundhog's Day" scenario? Are you reliving daily the same old thing? If so, you need to read what other people here at Gspot and other Xway sites are saying. What you remember about twi, vpw, pfal, twig (oh, they haven't been called twigs in 10 years) wow (gone-gone-gone, been gone since 95) the corps (still going but weird as all get out) ARE NOT THE TWI YOU REMEMBER.
Starting in the mid 90s that was even one of lcm's slogans "This ain't your fathers twi."
So, back to Hope's point...even if YOU had a grand ole time in twi, there were people that were being hurt, abused and manipulated. Just cause you were off in lalalala land....doesn't mean everybody took that same cruise.
I broke my ankle while in residence in the corps...you didn't see it...does that mean you are going to tell me it didn't happen? It happened whether or not you or anyone else saw it. Lots of people over the years were hurt in ways much more serious than that, just because I didn't see it doesn't mean that it didn't happen, it just means I was looking at something else.
ROR
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seaspray
Radar, sweetheart, did you read my post?
And by the way, I'll bet there's a boatload more PFAL grads here than WAP. What could be the total of new WAP grads? 200? 500? That's probably being generous.
But you're right. Just between us, I did forget about that. Thanks for pointing it out.
You read the second post. Party on.
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mj412
Hope this thread is somthing..
maybe I can learn to trust from it.
or just not care anymore...
either would be better than what I am thinking right now.
this is difficult.
ok a thief will work with money, child molestors surround their life with children in a most dedicated way.
men who rape have certain profiles they are attracted to ...
preditors yes preditors lived in The Way,
It was a system that asked for alot of trust and loyalty to people and God....
good christian folks were taught not to think evil, to forgive and to never ever hurt someones
ministry, allow complete stranger in your home to educate them and bless them .
Walk by the spirit
love one another...
again the list is endless..
What i witnessed was the class became more important than safety much more important...
You can turn it all around and say well you fool how could I have been so trusting?
Well at the time it was unbelief to question the manner things were done.
My problem .
Youth inexperience in life and being involved in this great plan to move the word blinded a lot of young innocent people to the reality of evil.
I do not think I was a victim of twi because I took pfal and chose to believe it content and made foolish decisions that messed up my life.
That I will take responsibility for,, cough hack and grr in hindsight but..I did think and do that.
The sexual abuse is not the same, rape is against the law of our land and Gods law.
Twi said it was above the law of the land and some people were special and innocent because of WHO did the doing of it...
I will not take responsibility for that ever or allow anyone eles to.
Im not talking about sex between adults who are confused in a state of cult and its problems and later regret the problems it made for them that is not rape..
Im saying out and out rape .
out and out thiefs
criminals who look for those they can and will hurt, those who didnt ask for prayer ok?
in fact never needed prayer because life was very good for them in the cult...
Twi made a haven for them and in my case out right protected them .
some had very close ties to the top and hear tell it came down from the top... leadership.
They kept them for a reason.. I do not pretend to know what it all means as far as why but they did .
Brain washed yes to a degree Garth convinced beyond your own self will to accept the unacceptable by our nations standards and laws because somehow
the way knew a higher plan and purpose that mattered more.
Was it about them "getting healed" no it was not .
In the past? do not bring that up again he/she has been forgiven ...
DOYOU want to be guilty of ruining a man of God ministry huh, do you have any idea how serious That charge is??/
worse than rape you know.
These type of criminals know how to work a system that has very little concern for the people they are selling out to God, remember that the sold out IDEA ??? hmmm well lets look at who sold out to what a little more closely..hmmm
no you probably do not and that is why it went on for years and got worse....
It was at times pure intimidation and the weapon was the word of God.....and the sale of pfal and just how important it was to the way ministry...
I can tell you it way far more important than people getting seriously hurt and abused ask the victims or better yet ask the abusers they will tell just how easy it was for them to make a place in the group and stay commited .... move up to high levels of leadership and decide what was best for everyone eles..who would be allowed to do what with whom and just how it was to be.
I made this point of those who made up stories about what they were told happened and believed it to be truth .... I count them just as guilty to this day. They also allow it to continue by blinding their eyes and ears to being honest about the circumstances that prevailed....
But they will say now I didnt know so it wasnt me.
Maybe some didnt know because they didnt want to know...
Many others only think they know and filled in the blanks to help their own position..on someone eles . enemys were made in twi and the easy way to shut some one up was to start talking about them in a very negative way accusing them of outright lies sometimes but also laying out little ideas that the ignorant would run with and soon the very one who may have been honest and on to the truth of a situation was the focus of the gossip and so torn up they would go away or go into denial about what they knew .
But the focus would be off the one who was clever enough with his own agenda to keep it going.
I do not know it or make this up, this was twi for me...
I am glad I am out whew
but I have learned to understand ploys are used by very clever criminals and anything can and will be done for them to be allowed the type of open access they had into peoples lifes in twi.
Even run the pfal class, which is where it all started.
Everyone had a good laugh with the nut case thread hah boy was't he/she a nutty one hahah
I tell some were far more serious than nutty they were and are down right evil preditors...
Twi made a home for them and opened up the door for them which became a serious playing field.
If God protected you from evil be thankful do not judge me as having some kind of lesser spiritual ability or in the depth knowing revelation .
I am reallly angry now and maybe this is a good thing because for all your advanced class **** and waycorps training this was big leadership I am saying and way productions oh how the way corps girls swooned for his abiltiy...to sing those precious songs... everyone loved him.
FOr all your dam training you loved him he was in your group and God protected you HMMM???
Well me and my God took him out and put His sorry *** in jail and gave him a record for life hahah
I still like my God better than yours anyday , He truly loves me and hears me more than any twi person ever did...
all twi people did was kick me out and start another class to feel good about what they accomplished for one another.
I am your freaking hero .
Jesus Christ is mine.
For all you people that want the details so you can talk and compare notes and decide whether it is true or not or who is was or was not.
Watch some reality tv or a soap opera show.
Funny how I lost the ability to give a cr@p what you freaking think isnt it?
I truly heard enough, and paid for loving you enough to think you could also love me more than who was the big shots in the way ministry.
you didnt then and you wont now.
But you will just spend a few more years talking and wondering about it . and possibly slandering me for the saying of it.
I guess we all do what we can.
Im proud of myself.
I know who delivered me from evil.
you seem to want to know who did the evil.
funny how it goes like that huh?
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Schwaigers
Garth, dear ... If it wasn't mind-control, then why is it so hard to get my own thoughts back. Oh boy - I know I'm asking for a lot of heckling with that question. And no more jokes about my head-on, Griz !! As I recall, you were right there praying for me that day. The catscan said I was OK, remember? It's TWI that messed with my mind, not the wreck. Seriously, Garth, I'm still shaking off a lot of screwed up thinking leftover from the Way. Isn't that the same as mind control? From my experience, that's what I'd call it. And you didn't have my experience. Isn't that what Hope is talking about here? -Pat
schwaiger@direcway.com
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Radar OReilly
SS,
I don't know when you left twi, or under what circumstances but there are at least 3000 grads of that gawd awful WAP class running around, problably more like 5000. Any pfal grad still with twi has taken wap...twi doesn't let "just anyone" attend their fellowships. People can't just hang out at fellowship for a year before taking wap, in order for their fellowships to be "clean and sactified" twi followers need to be "in the household."
Anyway, my point with all this isn't how many pfal grads vs how many wap grads there are. I was just addressing your response to Hope's request not to turn this thread into a pfal expose. No matter which set of classes people have taken the issue here is the fact that people were hurt in twi whether or not other people saw the hurts being inflicted.
I have a friend that I was in the corps with...sometimes we go years without talking to each other or seeing each other. Whenever we get together part of our time is always spent reminising about our in residence corps experiences. Without exception she will bring up some event and remember it as clear as if it had happened yesterday but I won't remember anything of the sort occuring, and vice versa. She always says "we did?" or "I was there?"... I am likely to tell her it was my evil twin that she remembers doing something or the other.
To dismiss someone elses experiences as not happening, or to accuse them of lying or embellishment is simply another form of denial for some people, Kind of like when you play with a cat or kitten....have you ever seen a cat hide it's head while playing? It totally believes that since it can't see you....you can't see it...never mind the fact that its entire body is sticking out from behind the sofa.
ROR
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seaspray
Radar,
You have got to know that I'm a big fan of yours. I like your stuff. Been reading you since back in the day of Waydale. Don't remember it all, but I was getting the point.
LCM got that right about it not being dear old dad's twi. "Harshness of twi 2" is an understatement. Sounds to me more like "How to turn your own home into a concentration camp".
Vic dead? You got to be kidding. Must have missed it.
Stay in touch. I'd like to talk with you.
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Hope R.
Seaspray - Radar is correct about the number of WAP grads who are around. It started running for grads only in 1995. At that time, the number was a bit higher than it is today, and all grads HAD to take it to remain in good TWI standing. So 5000 WAP grads isn't that far off.
A long while back I did a poll asking when people left TWI. There were over 100 responses. About 50% left between 1985 - 1989 with a few who left before VPW died in 1985, the other 50% left after "the fog years" - that's about 1989 to the present. There were also a few brave souls who admitted they were still in.
Remember that GS isn't a Christian forum. It is a forum about The Way International. The whole site is not about PFAL alone - nor is this thread.
Radar - "not everybody took the same cruise"
:D--> !! Yeah - some of us were sailing around in the Bermuda Triangle for years!
Hope R. color>size>face>
"And I'm on my way, I don't know where I'm going.I'm on my way, takin' my time but I don't know where." P. Simonsize>
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masterherbalist
jbarrax:
didn't mean anything pointed at you- you brought up some valid points that, IMO, needed to be addressed. that is: the credibility issue and that there is plenty of info available.
:>)
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oldiesman
Paradise Den, I think most ex-TWI folks dont want to address the evils because they want to move on with their life and not focus on the past sins of people. This isn't necessarily denying evil, its just moving on. Is that such a crime?
They don't want to deal with it because they really don't have to. Can you blame them? Why redress the past sins of others (dead long ago) when nothing can be done about it now? And maybe because there is some biblical precedent for not gossiping, not wallowing and incubating, feeding on evil works; not focusing on judging others, etc.
Just as you and me are entitled to focus on what we do, others are entitled to focus on what they want. In short, I don't judge ex-TWI folks who may not want to address this stuff; they are no less of a christian or a person than I am just because they have a different opinion and lifestyle.
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mj412
When I "move on" I take the wisdom I learned .
I like the idea of growing , not just moving.
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seaspray
Everybody, please, lets skip the formality and drop the uppercase 'S'. All except Rafael (all without exception, with distinction, or without distinction) 1969, of course, and he may address me as Mr. Seaspray. Radar, if you're going to shorten my handle to 'ss', we've got to find a blinking nazi death's head to go with it.
Radar you reminded me that there is a class of people who took WAP and did not take PFAL. These folks are victims of twi too. Anyone who sat through WAP, PFAL grad or not, was a victim.
The GreaseSpot is great. It reminds me of a mini ROA without the music and the WOW burgers. Though I must confess that I do find myself humming old Joyful Noise tunes sometimes when I'm visiting. And every now and then I go to the kitchen and make myself a WOW burger just for the fun of it.
My wife and daughter think I'm a little nuts and always ask me why we can't just call them hamburgers like everyone else. When they do this I jump up with a closed fist in the air and yell, "It's the Word, the Word, and nothing but the Word". They respond with, "Chapter and verse, please". At that point we're stuck and I just say, " Heck with it, let's have an ice cream cone."
I will venture to say that all here, whether reading, writing, or both, are born from above. Most are grads of Power for Abundant Living. If we all are a product of all our yesterdays, that yesterday that we spoke in tongues and knew what it meant is a yesterday we all have in common.
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alfakat
OM-- I don't think anyone is saying don't move on, you must stay and wallow in the past. I think Hope's point is folks who want to deny that anything untoward happened to anybody else cuz it DIDN'T happen to them. You know, maybe a bit like what you may have been say, about a year ago or so. Please do not take this as a rant about you--I believe you have become more willing to consider things as time has gone by. But there are a certain number who certainly match the description in Hope's opening post.
I came to Trancechat and then Waydale as a lurker originally, did not believe the stuff on there initially. Once I found out about someone on J Juedes site who I knew, my ignorance candy-shell began to crack and splinter into pieces. I had a very hard 2 or 3 days while the impact of it all hit me...I had been so clueless and naive. All the old, odd things began to add up. People I knew from the past told me of the sexcapades, women I knew for a long time told me of being groped and propositioned on the coach, etc. I do not feel that I have wallowed in the past, I feel that I know exactly why I am moving on today--because our past was not some fairy tale but people were used and the truth was NOT the standard of twi. I feel those are important things to know if one is going to truly move ahead and live a life of integrity before God and one another......YMMV
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Outin88!
Hope, I definately feel your pain on this.
I've been dealing with ex-wayfers since 1988 who simply deny abuse happened because they didn't see it. I can't completely blame them, but it does get frustrating.
What gets me more frustrated is when TWI doctrines are shown to be erronious and folks still deny that VPW was wrong cause he was their MOG. They'll disagree with the Bible and back up what VP said!
Hey Jerry B,
thanks for bringing out the PFAL review. I was re-reading that today and finding some folks who posted back then who remind me of some folks who currently post.
It was fun reading again, I even saw some of my old posts, glad you saved it. I think every PFAL grad should read it.
God bless.
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Jbarrax
You're welcome Outin88!
I'm working on a topical index so specific issues will be easier to find. I hope to have it done by the weekend. It's turning out to be a somewhat valuable resource as there's a PFAL class being run here by an offshoot fellowship of staunch Wierwillite Corps grads and one of the newer fellowship members has come to me with her questions. We're going to get together this weekend with her Corps fiancee to discuss it in more depth. won't THAT be fun!
:)-->
And I agree, the similarity to some of the posters there with current GS Wierwillites is interesting. Kind of funny, but also sad.
Back to the topic at hand....Speaking of some of those "old, odd" things that Alfakat mentioned, I remember being told that VP suggested to the married men in the Corps that they buy and read Penthouse magazine to help marriages. Can you imagine any other Christian leader suggesting that their married seminary students introduce porn into their marriages? I wonder if VP ever sent a letter to the Penthouse Forum?
;)-->
Peace
JerryB
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