I am just so glad that people are exposing the predators, bringing their abuses to light, so that everyone can see what these folks really were....what was undernieth the thin veneer of their christian label....that this wasn`t just a momentary lapse of judgement in an otherwise exemplary life.
I, too, just listened to this interview. I personally know Kristen. It's a devastating story. It's unfortunate beyond belief. There were many hurt in the same way, some who knew about it but denied it, and some like me who were oblivious and blind and not targeted - for whatever reason I don't know for sure. The sadness I feel about that blindness is something I've borne for a long time. Sometimes I think that had I known, I somehow could've prevented the abuses. But a social worker once told me that siblings of abused children often feel that same guilt but the reality is they couldn't have prevented it...who knows...
For clarification: I can personally attest to the fact that the lockbox teaching about these sexual activities was not taught to everyone who ended up as a leader. The broad concept of the "lockbox," however, was applied whenever an issue was supposed to be kept "in house," for instance when VP had confrontations with research people who disagreed with him and they left or he kicked them out of the Corps, etc.
Thanks Penworks, I believe you that not all leaders were privy to lock box. I think wierwille needed the legitimacy of upstanding people to stand behind. He needed people of unquestionable character to be what the general public saw. I think that folks were carefully monitored as to who could *handle it*
Most of us who met these genuine Christians, believed that twi was a spiritually wholsom group...the enthusiasm, the love was unmistakable.
Some of the most incredibly kind people I met were in twi.
I have read where *lock box* was used to silence parents of children whom were sexually abused, and prevent them from seeking legal justice. Only to find out later the predator had been moved to another state and the believers never warned.
The leadership set up of TWI made a happy home for predators, I think. Once in a leadership position, they could manipulate and shut up people or discredit them. Lockbox and 'so the ministry not be blamed' were tailored for predators. No checks and balances.
My biggest concern with ex way groups isn't really the doctrine-- I don't really care if poeple want to believe in no trinity or the dead are dead or believing equals receivng. I worry about the set up of their community--the ex way corps are their leaders--and have they made any processes for handling greivances or issues with leaders? Is it always the leader's word against yours?
hello all you lovely ladies!........to quote bramble!......."have they made any processes for handling greivances or issues with leaders? Is it always the leader's word against yours?".......WHO KNOWS??..........i say that because just like "rev"clapp told nathan friedly that there is "no link" between cff and twi, all the splinter group "leaders" work double-overtime and utilize doulbe and triple talk to totally "free themselves" of their connection at the hip to vic and twi!........ever notice that??.......ALL OF THEM!.......you never hear them brag about what corps they graduated from, or about what year they were "ordained" by twi, or by whom!......rood, schoenheit, clapp, nessle, seed, carr, burke, finnegan, and the list goes on and on.........check out their websites......check out their CV'S (resumes) as our friend twinky would call them......ever see vic or twi mentioned???...........and, the vast majority of these wonderful "christian leaders" have a twi past just as dirty as vic's.....and every one of them knows the facts about their father-in-the-word's extra-curricular ministering activities, the booze, and the rest of vic's "wonderful works of god".........most of them were owned lock, stock and barrel by twi's company store!...and, the underpinnings of all their great doctrinal and practical truth are laced with vic's deadly mog stew!......that's one of my major beefs with ALL of them......a bunch of chicken poop pimps, faithfully carrying on the ministry of their father in the word!!.....bastard sons all of them...........rascal has 'em all nailed.......men of the flesh..........liars........chief painters of the whited sepulchre himself who lies in his grave built with the abs of the faithful under that stupid fountain!............ok......that's the end of that rant.........felt good though...........thanks for that question bramble!............peace.
hello all you lovely ladies!........to quote bramble!......."have they made any processes for handling greivances or issues with leaders? Is it always the leader's word against yours?".......WHO KNOWS??..........i say that because just like "rev"clapp told nathan friedly that there is "no link" between cff and twi, all the splinter group "leaders" work double-overtime and utilize doulbe and triple talk to totally "free themselves" of their connection at the hip to vic and twi!........ever notice that??.......ALL OF THEM!.......you never hear them brag about what corps they graduated from, or about what year they were "ordained" by twi, or by whom!......rood, schoenheit, clapp, nessle, seed, carr, burke, finnegan, and the list goes on and on.........check out their websites......check out their CV'S (resumes) as our friend twinky would call them......ever see vic or twi mentioned???...........and, the vast majority of these wonderful "christian leaders" have a twi past just as dirty as vic's.....and every one of them knows the facts about their father-in-the-word's extra-curricular ministering activities, the booze, and the rest of vic's "wonderful works of god".........most of them were owned lock, stock and barrel by twi's company store!...and, the underpinnings of all their great doctrinal and practical truth are laced with vic's deadly mog stew!......that's one of my major beefs with ALL of them......a bunch of chicken poop pimps, faithfully carrying on the ministry of their father in the word!!.....bastard sons all of them...........rascal has 'em all nailed.......men of the flesh..........liars........chief painters of the whited sepulchre himself who lies in his grave built with the abs of the faithful under that stupid fountain!............ok......that's the end of that rant.........felt good though...........thanks for that question bramble!............peace.
Has anyone seen Research Geek lately?
That previously prolific poster was pretty public with his cff affiliation, wasn't he?
Great point Bramble and Don. I justdon`t know if a group CAN be spiritually healthy in their doctrine if they don`t get completely away from folks that think, believe, speak the same tightly controlled thoughts and beliefs that we ourselves hold to be truth.
Folks can believe what they want, that isn`t my point. Its been my experience that God still looks after us and works as best he can within the parameters that we allow.
It is of concern though if a doctrine that was compiled by a man of the flesh is still regarded as the end all be all truth and being used to ensnare, to place people into bondage....under the control of another.
Do you think this is the difference in what people experienced in twi?
In the hands of the people who were of the spirit, the doctrine learned was realitively innocuous, because they did what they did right or wrong, was done with the love of God in their hearts....people saw that and were blessed?
By the same token, in the hands of a person of the flesh...the doctrine, it became a dangerous tool to hurt, to bully, to take that which wasn`t theirs.
Could it be that what was so right in twi wasn`t the doctrine at all, but the people of the spirit, who were walking with the love of God?
Could that be the reason for the diverse experiences?
I have seen the the same thing in my friend in the mormon church, and another in the catholic church.
In spite of the intentions of the leaders of the splinter tgroups, I think as Bramble said, the doctrine and practice can make a haven for predators and abuse. :(
Rascal, I do think there were people/leaders in TWI who were so far removed from being predators that either they never even noticed loop holes they could use against people, or it took many years of witnessing such before they learned to act against people--and those would be the ones who would quickly repent and change when they became aware of the bad affects of their actions.
But once aware such loop holes existed, one would think the good hearted would work to change aspects of the leadership structure to protect people. Heck denominational Protestant Christianity has processes to protect people against abusive leaders, why can't exway groups?
I don't see the point of pretending that it just would never be a problem when exways KNOW it can be a problem. To not bother to do so seems odd--perhaps pride is at the basis--we have the TRUTH so we'll be blessed, bad stuf won't happen here...
If that is the case--for all I know CFF etc all have such processes in place.
But I do think it odd that TWI corps automatically become the new leaders in a new group. Makes me wonder if the congregation is automatically following leadership as they were so taught in TWI.
You know, Nobody wishes more than me that vp, twi, pfal had been what we believed them to be :(
Bramble, I imagine that you are correct. My husband, myself, the people that we interacted with...were completely naieve and oblivious to the more sinister implications or applications of the doctrine. People could hear the same doctrine and arrive at completely different conclusions.
I absolutely assumed that pre marital sex, drugs, etc were completely out of bounds...never dreamed untill 5 years in that everyone didn`t think that.
I talked with a woman at length one time who was so naieve in her outlook, so completely pure in her heart to serve God, that when she entered the way corpes, she never DREAMED that she was being groomed for lcm...
She was in *special* work crew, *special* twig ...where things were said, where the doctrines of the king, and all parts of the body being equal, and serving the man of God, taking care of his needs (she was completely unaware that this had sexual connotations) so that he could better minister to the rest of the body....what a special, noble calling.
She did NOT know untill she was handed up to craig by her tc on a silver platter and he point blank told her that he wanted her in a threesom :(
She was completely unprepared mentally, or emotionally because in spite of being indoctrinated...she never understood the deeper implications of what they were saying.
When she refused....she was taken under guard and required to pack and escorted off the property. By the time the poor girl made it back to her home state everyone had been called and told she was possessed. Nobody, nobody she knew would even speak to her to hear her side of the story :(
She darn near didn`t survive.
Polar Bear, thank you, thank you very much. I don`t know if it is bravery or just being really, really mad at the betrayal
I don't know if this applies or not...so it may in fact be,
But I think it will apply at some level - so here goes...
Yesterday I got a call from my tearful older daughter. She wanted "to talk to her Mommy," as she put it. All I could get out of her was something about her boyfriend and this other girl (I'll call her "G") who had recently ended a relationship with an abusive young man.
I won't go into details - there was some of the usual drama that is typical for High School - but one line stood out - "G" was angry because my daughter stood up for herself and reported "G's" boyfriend for making a verbal threat. (He said he would hurt her and kill her boyfriend.) This guy went on to "pants" "G's" sister in the locker room. For that second act in combination with the first act, he got sent to another school.
So, "G" blamed my daughter for breaking them up. She said that she was half of the reason that her boyfriend got in trouble.
I STOPPED THE CONVERSATION RIGHT THERE.
I explained the following:
"G's" boyfriend made the bad decisions.
It is never wrong to defend yourself.
It is wrong to allow an abuser to keep on abusing.
We then went on to discuss victim mentality and how the abused often blame anyone that try to help them. We talked about how secrecy and cover-ups allow this to continue. We talked about the manipulation and control that abusers are skilled at using to spin their web.
Gladly, my daughter already knew this - but girls around her were trying to make her feel bad for speaking up for herself. All I needed to do was put the whole thing in perspective for her.
I'd say that one of the first things to do when getting involved with any organization is to not only see if "they have made any processes for handling grievances or issues with leaders," but also to see if these processes are all talk. Ask enough questions to see if the process is real or just on paper.
It applies Dooj. Congratulations to your daughter for having good sense. A tribute no doubt to the strong Mom who raised her to be confidant to do the right thing, even when uncomfortable.
The boundaries are firmly in place for that kiddo.
I think that Kirsten Skedgills remarks about people who were lacking in guidance, or had those boundary lines erased by abuse...is directly applicable here....as to why some were strong and stood up, and some were intimidated into compliance and silence :(
I agree that any off shoot of twi needs to have stops in place to protect people.
In the case of the ces debacle, it didn`t seem like people had any choice once the wife of a leader pronounced them posessed or whatever. People had no recourse there.
Well yes...that is always an option. But if one has not had the guidance growing up, if one has had those boundaries erased by abuse. One of the results can be a lack in the confidence in ones own perceptions and judgements to stand up for ones self.
It is my belief that people were targeted (as with perdators every where) who wouldn`t have the confidence to refuse or to speak up when accosted.
Couple that with no accountability by the organizations leaders, a discouragement to go to law enforcement, a lack of being believed because one has been declared possessed....a fear of leaving God`s hand of blessing and protection if thrown out...It kind of boxes one in.
If you don`t think that you can get away, that it is required by God....the boundaries are every bit as real as physical obsticles.
I think that in using God, in using scripture as the weapon to ensure compliance and silence, this makes these guys even more slimey than your garden variety pervert.
It is so hard to go against what you have been taught that God requires.
Great post, Don't Worry – rant on brother!!! I agree – any former TWI-leadership has no business starting their own thing – cuz they still have all the kaka in their system! It reminds me of a long ago newsletter from John Lynn – where he said something like "We've escaped from Egypt and we've got all the gold!"
Certain TWI doctrines and mindset reinforce either a predator or prey mentality – but either way the process as a whole creates a controlled environment that facilitates predators. It's sort of along the lines of a canned hunt – where a hunter is guaranteed a kill by the host pre-capturing the animal and releasing it into an area where the hunter can take a shot. It's as easy as shooting fish in a barrel.
Predatory mindset: All the women of the kingdom belong to the king. Unto the pure all things are pure. Anything done in the love of God is okay. The integrity of the Word is always at stake [not your integrity]. You can renew your mind so well that something is no longer sin to you. You and God make a majority.
Prey mindset: Lock Box. Don't murmur – especially against leadership. The love of God thinketh no evil. Blind Obedience. Questioning leadership may be due to influence by devil spirits and if not kept in check can lead to out-and-out possession. Remember who taught you the Word. If you walk out on this ministry – where else are you going to go?
You know, I can see how that applied in TWI. However, for the most part, the folks in these offshoots have already walked from one organization. The hold of "God won't spit in your direction" doesn't really apply - or shouldn't apply IMHO.
I'm not judging - or at least trying not to judge. BUT when I left TWI and then got involved in a small and insignificant offshoot, walking away from them was a lot easier. For one, I already had experiential knowledge that I wasn't going to start drooling in a rubber room somewhere and horns weren't going to sprout. No one was going to die because I left a man-made organization in my quest for spiritual knowledge.
I do understand boundaries being broken down and erased. But not everyone in TWI or in the offshoots had those issues.
It seems to me that the strong can be examples for those who don't see their way clear.
Isn't that why the friends of an abused woman circle the wagons around her? She kicks and screams, gets angry and even accuses the people wanting to protect her of hurting her. If they are smart they don't listen - they just do what they know is right. They are strong for her because she doesn't have the resources to be strong for herself.
The problem is that for some strange reason when the subject of God enters the picture everyone wants to take a hands-off approach. "It's their walk," and all that sort of BS.
Life has continuity. Life is fluid. The lessons we learn in one area we are to take to the other areas of our lives. I've seen it in what I teach. I've seen it in teaching kids in general. It's a big mistake IMHO to draw walls around the lessons we learn. (This is my "God room" with it's lessons, this is my "Family room" with it's lessons.... etc.)
I think that the concern about off shoots would be that they THINK that they have fixed the problems of twi....ie left egypt with the gold....but yet the same doctrine that allowed the abuse, that enabled the bully or predator access to prey, are still firmly in place.
While a good hearted christian, a man of the spirit can operate within the parameters without harming. One who is of the flesh...yes even if he doesn`t believe that this is the case....still has the tools provided by the doctrine at their disposal to ensnare and enslave.
It is my belief that it takes stepping away from hearing what you want from people that agree with you (not you dooj, but off shoots) to gain a healthy perspective and perhaps recognize the damaging docctrine and practice.
I don`t believe most of the people in the off shoots, no matter how good their intentions have takien this necessary step.
Rascal - I'm going to assume that you're willing to make a distinction between the leaders and the followers (UGH! I don't like that term - but it seems to apply) of these offshoots.
I agree wholeheartedly that these offshoots were started too quickly. They sought to strike while the iron was hot to get the most of the "Great Escape from TWI."
Paul took 14 years to change his habits, his patterns, to learn and grow. He didn't go from being a member of the Sanhedrin (I think he was a member - someone correct me if I'm wrong) to being the Apostle Paul overnight.
DOOJ, that is PRECISELY what I am talking about. You are just saying it different.
The people in off shoots may have the best of intentions, they may very well and probably are spirit filled christians doing their best to live an exemplary life.....The question is...is doctrine that allowed abuse, are the practices that enabled evil to flourish and destroy so many still in place, ready for the next nut job or predator that comes along. Are men of the flesh still able to masquerade as men of the spirit, the defining fruit in their lives still ignored or excused?
VP was a sexual predator, he educated and then placed predators in charge of peoples lives. People were hurt and had no recourse.
Is there a set of checks and balances to prevent predators and bullies from harming people in God`s name in the off shoots who have relied on twi leaders and doctrines as their rules of faith and practice?
Paul was the perfect example, I think that you are dead on topic dooj. Thanks for your thoughts :)
Is there a set of checks and balances to prevent predators and bullies from harming people in God`s name in the off shoots who have relied on twi leaders and doctrines as their rules of faith and practice?
I'm not willing to join an offshoot to do the research. ;)
I sincerely hope that any leader of any organization takes their responsibility seriously and makes doggone (sorry T-Bone ) sure that there is a GOOD way to insure that predatory behavior will be dealt with soundly and immediately.
I think that one thing twi taught well was...HOW TO START YOUR OWN CULT...think about it...most of us here know the essential framework and "start-up" methods. It's not that hard. With a little work, you could end up with a tax exempt organization, preaching the "whatever" and collecting money through classes, tapes, and "abs"...
A lot of these guys with the splinter groups opted to use their "twi popularity" to get the ball rolling for themselves...Have any of these clowns ever held a real job? So Gawd called them to Christian ministry?...First, give yourself a name and then hoist your flag...and don't forget to open a bank account.
Of course, the bottom line to any person's life is not the blather that seeps out of their pork chop hole...but it's their behavior and their heart. I have nothing against Christians who organize for worthy purposes but I find them suspect when their experience and background come from an abusive cult...all these splinter groups remind me of some lyrics from a Jerry Garcia song...
..."Don't lend your hand to raise no flag upon a ship of fools"...
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rascal
I am just so glad that people are exposing the predators, bringing their abuses to light, so that everyone can see what these folks really were....what was undernieth the thin veneer of their christian label....that this wasn`t just a momentary lapse of judgement in an otherwise exemplary life.
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penworks
I, too, just listened to this interview. I personally know Kristen. It's a devastating story. It's unfortunate beyond belief. There were many hurt in the same way, some who knew about it but denied it, and some like me who were oblivious and blind and not targeted - for whatever reason I don't know for sure. The sadness I feel about that blindness is something I've borne for a long time. Sometimes I think that had I known, I somehow could've prevented the abuses. But a social worker once told me that siblings of abused children often feel that same guilt but the reality is they couldn't have prevented it...who knows...
For clarification: I can personally attest to the fact that the lockbox teaching about these sexual activities was not taught to everyone who ended up as a leader. The broad concept of the "lockbox," however, was applied whenever an issue was supposed to be kept "in house," for instance when VP had confrontations with research people who disagreed with him and they left or he kicked them out of the Corps, etc.
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rascal
Thanks Penworks, I believe you that not all leaders were privy to lock box. I think wierwille needed the legitimacy of upstanding people to stand behind. He needed people of unquestionable character to be what the general public saw. I think that folks were carefully monitored as to who could *handle it*
Most of us who met these genuine Christians, believed that twi was a spiritually wholsom group...the enthusiasm, the love was unmistakable.
Some of the most incredibly kind people I met were in twi.
I have read where *lock box* was used to silence parents of children whom were sexually abused, and prevent them from seeking legal justice. Only to find out later the predator had been moved to another state and the believers never warned.
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excathedra
sad
that's the only word i can come up with
it's never ever flattering to be used
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Bramble
The leadership set up of TWI made a happy home for predators, I think. Once in a leadership position, they could manipulate and shut up people or discredit them. Lockbox and 'so the ministry not be blamed' were tailored for predators. No checks and balances.
My biggest concern with ex way groups isn't really the doctrine-- I don't really care if poeple want to believe in no trinity or the dead are dead or believing equals receivng. I worry about the set up of their community--the ex way corps are their leaders--and have they made any processes for handling greivances or issues with leaders? Is it always the leader's word against yours?
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DontWorryBeHappy
hello all you lovely ladies!........to quote bramble!......."have they made any processes for handling greivances or issues with leaders? Is it always the leader's word against yours?".......WHO KNOWS??..........i say that because just like "rev"clapp told nathan friedly that there is "no link" between cff and twi, all the splinter group "leaders" work double-overtime and utilize doulbe and triple talk to totally "free themselves" of their connection at the hip to vic and twi!........ever notice that??.......ALL OF THEM!.......you never hear them brag about what corps they graduated from, or about what year they were "ordained" by twi, or by whom!......rood, schoenheit, clapp, nessle, seed, carr, burke, finnegan, and the list goes on and on.........check out their websites......check out their CV'S (resumes) as our friend twinky would call them......ever see vic or twi mentioned???...........and, the vast majority of these wonderful "christian leaders" have a twi past just as dirty as vic's.....and every one of them knows the facts about their father-in-the-word's extra-curricular ministering activities, the booze, and the rest of vic's "wonderful works of god".........most of them were owned lock, stock and barrel by twi's company store!...and, the underpinnings of all their great doctrinal and practical truth are laced with vic's deadly mog stew!......that's one of my major beefs with ALL of them......a bunch of chicken poop pimps, faithfully carrying on the ministry of their father in the word!!.....bastard sons all of them...........rascal has 'em all nailed.......men of the flesh..........liars........chief painters of the whited sepulchre himself who lies in his grave built with the abs of the faithful under that stupid fountain!............ok......that's the end of that rant.........felt good though...........thanks for that question bramble!............peace.
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Mike
Has anyone seen Research Geek lately?
That previously prolific poster was pretty public with his cff affiliation, wasn't he?
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rascal
Great point Bramble and Don. I justdon`t know if a group CAN be spiritually healthy in their doctrine if they don`t get completely away from folks that think, believe, speak the same tightly controlled thoughts and beliefs that we ourselves hold to be truth.
Folks can believe what they want, that isn`t my point. Its been my experience that God still looks after us and works as best he can within the parameters that we allow.
It is of concern though if a doctrine that was compiled by a man of the flesh is still regarded as the end all be all truth and being used to ensnare, to place people into bondage....under the control of another.
Do you think this is the difference in what people experienced in twi?
In the hands of the people who were of the spirit, the doctrine learned was realitively innocuous, because they did what they did right or wrong, was done with the love of God in their hearts....people saw that and were blessed?
By the same token, in the hands of a person of the flesh...the doctrine, it became a dangerous tool to hurt, to bully, to take that which wasn`t theirs.
Could it be that what was so right in twi wasn`t the doctrine at all, but the people of the spirit, who were walking with the love of God?
Could that be the reason for the diverse experiences?
I have seen the the same thing in my friend in the mormon church, and another in the catholic church.
In spite of the intentions of the leaders of the splinter tgroups, I think as Bramble said, the doctrine and practice can make a haven for predators and abuse. :(
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polar bear
I applaude you Rascal.
Thanks for speaking up.
That does indeed take courage
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Bramble
Rascal, I do think there were people/leaders in TWI who were so far removed from being predators that either they never even noticed loop holes they could use against people, or it took many years of witnessing such before they learned to act against people--and those would be the ones who would quickly repent and change when they became aware of the bad affects of their actions.
But once aware such loop holes existed, one would think the good hearted would work to change aspects of the leadership structure to protect people. Heck denominational Protestant Christianity has processes to protect people against abusive leaders, why can't exway groups?
I don't see the point of pretending that it just would never be a problem when exways KNOW it can be a problem. To not bother to do so seems odd--perhaps pride is at the basis--we have the TRUTH so we'll be blessed, bad stuf won't happen here...
If that is the case--for all I know CFF etc all have such processes in place.
But I do think it odd that TWI corps automatically become the new leaders in a new group. Makes me wonder if the congregation is automatically following leadership as they were so taught in TWI.
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rascal
Lol Don, glad that you feel better :)
You know, Nobody wishes more than me that vp, twi, pfal had been what we believed them to be :(
Bramble, I imagine that you are correct. My husband, myself, the people that we interacted with...were completely naieve and oblivious to the more sinister implications or applications of the doctrine. People could hear the same doctrine and arrive at completely different conclusions.
I absolutely assumed that pre marital sex, drugs, etc were completely out of bounds...never dreamed untill 5 years in that everyone didn`t think that.
I talked with a woman at length one time who was so naieve in her outlook, so completely pure in her heart to serve God, that when she entered the way corpes, she never DREAMED that she was being groomed for lcm...
She was in *special* work crew, *special* twig ...where things were said, where the doctrines of the king, and all parts of the body being equal, and serving the man of God, taking care of his needs (she was completely unaware that this had sexual connotations) so that he could better minister to the rest of the body....what a special, noble calling.
She did NOT know untill she was handed up to craig by her tc on a silver platter and he point blank told her that he wanted her in a threesom :(
She was completely unprepared mentally, or emotionally because in spite of being indoctrinated...she never understood the deeper implications of what they were saying.
When she refused....she was taken under guard and required to pack and escorted off the property. By the time the poor girl made it back to her home state everyone had been called and told she was possessed. Nobody, nobody she knew would even speak to her to hear her side of the story :(
She darn near didn`t survive.
Polar Bear, thank you, thank you very much. I don`t know if it is bravery or just being really, really mad at the betrayal
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doojable
I don't know if this applies or not...so it may in fact be,
But I think it will apply at some level - so here goes...
Yesterday I got a call from my tearful older daughter. She wanted "to talk to her Mommy," as she put it. All I could get out of her was something about her boyfriend and this other girl (I'll call her "G") who had recently ended a relationship with an abusive young man.
I won't go into details - there was some of the usual drama that is typical for High School - but one line stood out - "G" was angry because my daughter stood up for herself and reported "G's" boyfriend for making a verbal threat. (He said he would hurt her and kill her boyfriend.) This guy went on to "pants" "G's" sister in the locker room. For that second act in combination with the first act, he got sent to another school.
So, "G" blamed my daughter for breaking them up. She said that she was half of the reason that her boyfriend got in trouble.
I STOPPED THE CONVERSATION RIGHT THERE.
I explained the following:
"G's" boyfriend made the bad decisions.
It is never wrong to defend yourself.
It is wrong to allow an abuser to keep on abusing.
We then went on to discuss victim mentality and how the abused often blame anyone that try to help them. We talked about how secrecy and cover-ups allow this to continue. We talked about the manipulation and control that abusers are skilled at using to spin their web.
Gladly, my daughter already knew this - but girls around her were trying to make her feel bad for speaking up for herself. All I needed to do was put the whole thing in perspective for her.
I'd say that one of the first things to do when getting involved with any organization is to not only see if "they have made any processes for handling grievances or issues with leaders," but also to see if these processes are all talk. Ask enough questions to see if the process is real or just on paper.
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rascal
It applies Dooj. Congratulations to your daughter for having good sense. A tribute no doubt to the strong Mom who raised her to be confidant to do the right thing, even when uncomfortable.
The boundaries are firmly in place for that kiddo.
I think that Kirsten Skedgills remarks about people who were lacking in guidance, or had those boundary lines erased by abuse...is directly applicable here....as to why some were strong and stood up, and some were intimidated into compliance and silence :(
I agree that any off shoot of twi needs to have stops in place to protect people.
In the case of the ces debacle, it didn`t seem like people had any choice once the wife of a leader pronounced them posessed or whatever. People had no recourse there.
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doojable
There is always one recourse - WALK!
You have to be willing to walk away from the table, the deal, the organization.
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rascal
Well yes...that is always an option. But if one has not had the guidance growing up, if one has had those boundaries erased by abuse. One of the results can be a lack in the confidence in ones own perceptions and judgements to stand up for ones self.
It is my belief that people were targeted (as with perdators every where) who wouldn`t have the confidence to refuse or to speak up when accosted.
Couple that with no accountability by the organizations leaders, a discouragement to go to law enforcement, a lack of being believed because one has been declared possessed....a fear of leaving God`s hand of blessing and protection if thrown out...It kind of boxes one in.
If you don`t think that you can get away, that it is required by God....the boundaries are every bit as real as physical obsticles.
I think that in using God, in using scripture as the weapon to ensure compliance and silence, this makes these guys even more slimey than your garden variety pervert.
It is so hard to go against what you have been taught that God requires.
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T-Bone
Great post, Don't Worry – rant on brother!!! I agree – any former TWI-leadership has no business starting their own thing – cuz they still have all the kaka in their system! It reminds me of a long ago newsletter from John Lynn – where he said something like "We've escaped from Egypt and we've got all the gold!"
Certain TWI doctrines and mindset reinforce either a predator or prey mentality – but either way the process as a whole creates a controlled environment that facilitates predators. It's sort of along the lines of a canned hunt – where a hunter is guaranteed a kill by the host pre-capturing the animal and releasing it into an area where the hunter can take a shot. It's as easy as shooting fish in a barrel.
Predatory mindset: All the women of the kingdom belong to the king. Unto the pure all things are pure. Anything done in the love of God is okay. The integrity of the Word is always at stake [not your integrity]. You can renew your mind so well that something is no longer sin to you. You and God make a majority.
Prey mindset: Lock Box. Don't murmur – especially against leadership. The love of God thinketh no evil. Blind Obedience. Questioning leadership may be due to influence by devil spirits and if not kept in check can lead to out-and-out possession. Remember who taught you the Word. If you walk out on this ministry – where else are you going to go?
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doojable
Rascal,
You know, I can see how that applied in TWI. However, for the most part, the folks in these offshoots have already walked from one organization. The hold of "God won't spit in your direction" doesn't really apply - or shouldn't apply IMHO.
I'm not judging - or at least trying not to judge. BUT when I left TWI and then got involved in a small and insignificant offshoot, walking away from them was a lot easier. For one, I already had experiential knowledge that I wasn't going to start drooling in a rubber room somewhere and horns weren't going to sprout. No one was going to die because I left a man-made organization in my quest for spiritual knowledge.
I do understand boundaries being broken down and erased. But not everyone in TWI or in the offshoots had those issues.
It seems to me that the strong can be examples for those who don't see their way clear.
Isn't that why the friends of an abused woman circle the wagons around her? She kicks and screams, gets angry and even accuses the people wanting to protect her of hurting her. If they are smart they don't listen - they just do what they know is right. They are strong for her because she doesn't have the resources to be strong for herself.
The problem is that for some strange reason when the subject of God enters the picture everyone wants to take a hands-off approach. "It's their walk," and all that sort of BS.
Life has continuity. Life is fluid. The lessons we learn in one area we are to take to the other areas of our lives. I've seen it in what I teach. I've seen it in teaching kids in general. It's a big mistake IMHO to draw walls around the lessons we learn. (This is my "God room" with it's lessons, this is my "Family room" with it's lessons.... etc.)
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rascal
Dooj, great points......
I think that the concern about off shoots would be that they THINK that they have fixed the problems of twi....ie left egypt with the gold....but yet the same doctrine that allowed the abuse, that enabled the bully or predator access to prey, are still firmly in place.
While a good hearted christian, a man of the spirit can operate within the parameters without harming. One who is of the flesh...yes even if he doesn`t believe that this is the case....still has the tools provided by the doctrine at their disposal to ensnare and enslave.
It is my belief that it takes stepping away from hearing what you want from people that agree with you (not you dooj, but off shoots) to gain a healthy perspective and perhaps recognize the damaging docctrine and practice.
I don`t believe most of the people in the off shoots, no matter how good their intentions have takien this necessary step.
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doojable
Rascal - I'm going to assume that you're willing to make a distinction between the leaders and the followers (UGH! I don't like that term - but it seems to apply) of these offshoots.
I agree wholeheartedly that these offshoots were started too quickly. They sought to strike while the iron was hot to get the most of the "Great Escape from TWI."
Paul took 14 years to change his habits, his patterns, to learn and grow. He didn't go from being a member of the Sanhedrin (I think he was a member - someone correct me if I'm wrong) to being the Apostle Paul overnight.
Anyway, back to the topic at hand...
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rascal
DOOJ, that is PRECISELY what I am talking about. You are just saying it different.
The people in off shoots may have the best of intentions, they may very well and probably are spirit filled christians doing their best to live an exemplary life.....The question is...is doctrine that allowed abuse, are the practices that enabled evil to flourish and destroy so many still in place, ready for the next nut job or predator that comes along. Are men of the flesh still able to masquerade as men of the spirit, the defining fruit in their lives still ignored or excused?
VP was a sexual predator, he educated and then placed predators in charge of peoples lives. People were hurt and had no recourse.
Is there a set of checks and balances to prevent predators and bullies from harming people in God`s name in the off shoots who have relied on twi leaders and doctrines as their rules of faith and practice?
Paul was the perfect example, I think that you are dead on topic dooj. Thanks for your thoughts :)
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doojable
I'm not willing to join an offshoot to do the research. ;)
I sincerely hope that any leader of any organization takes their responsibility seriously and makes doggone (sorry T-Bone
) sure that there is a GOOD way to insure that predatory behavior will be dealt with soundly and immediately.
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excathedra
ohmygod i don't know what to say
i'm still laughing my azz off and haven't gotten past don39's post
ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha
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GrouchoMarxJr
I think that one thing twi taught well was...HOW TO START YOUR OWN CULT...think about it...most of us here know the essential framework and "start-up" methods. It's not that hard. With a little work, you could end up with a tax exempt organization, preaching the "whatever" and collecting money through classes, tapes, and "abs"...
A lot of these guys with the splinter groups opted to use their "twi popularity" to get the ball rolling for themselves...Have any of these clowns ever held a real job? So Gawd called them to Christian ministry?...First, give yourself a name and then hoist your flag...and don't forget to open a bank account.
Of course, the bottom line to any person's life is not the blather that seeps out of their pork chop hole...but it's their behavior and their heart. I have nothing against Christians who organize for worthy purposes but I find them suspect when their experience and background come from an abusive cult...all these splinter groups remind me of some lyrics from a Jerry Garcia song...
..."Don't lend your hand to raise no flag upon a ship of fools"...
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doojable
...Not to mention that they didn't even give themselves a name... they took the title and reputation that they had gained in the first cult...
So they say that they left Egypt, but in reality they really just brought Egypt along for the ride.
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