At our church study group, when I ask about those "pop-up" topics, I usually don't give a reason either. Just that I am curious about something.
The answers do vary. Depends sometimes on how I ask. Also depends on who happens to be at the group at the time. Because there are some people who think that they know so........ much! And there are others who just want to learn together.
Like you described of your church, I would say that mine is also a good church. The pastor in his teachings focuses on Bible themes (as opposed to current event themes). I appreciate that his particular style can include presenting balanced summaries of how scholars may disagree on the topic. If he can resolve it, he will explain why he feels this way or that. But if he cannot resolve it, he is very comfortable saying "I don't know".
After experiencing TWI, or an offshoot; "I don't know" can be very good words to hear.
The one thing that I find most alarming is that too many Christians expect the minister to spoon feed them and tell them what to think. What is even more
alarming is when you try to "raise the bar" they scream and fuss because you expect them to think for themselves. I have found unfortunately that too
many are still too attached to Mama and when given the Word even in cereal or fruit form, balk intensely and try to spit it out. What is even more alarming
than all of the above? The ministers who have come to expect that they must spoon feed their congregations and have ceased to care.
So study on their own? You will find some, but not a lot.
I don't know…maybe it's just me…some of this reminds me of the elitist attitude I saw in the Corps.
To which do you refer? The Christians who wish to be spoon fed or the ministers who minister it?
Actually, I was referring to the mentality behind this post:
The one thing that I find most alarming is that too many Christians expect the minister to spoon feed them and tell them what to think. What is even more
alarming is when you try to "raise the bar" they scream and fuss because you expect them to think for themselves. I have found unfortunately that too
many are still too attached to Mama and when given the Word even in cereal or fruit form, balk intensely and try to spit it out. What is even more alarming
than all of the above? The ministers who have come to expect that they must spoon feed their congregations and have ceased to care.
So study on their own? You will find some, but not a lot.
There's assumptions here that I thought go along the same line of thinking prevalent in TWI leadership – elitism; Leadership by those who are supposedly superior in some way. Elitism is what perpetuates that "learned helplessness" of typical TWI followers. They're encouraged to look to leadership for answers - as if responding to a commercial by the spiritually elite, We're super achievers! You need us to spoon-feed you the Word. It's a system that breeds dependency. And it happens in other groups too.
That's one of the reasons I've said on other threads – folks who were involved with TWI really have no business starting their own ministry. Besides regurgitating some of the skewed doctrines of TWI – they often stick with some of the faulty thought processes. So vp was essential to a follower's belief system morphs into now our leadership is essential to a follower's belief system…Usually the elitist gives off an air of superiority, tries to bully people into kowtowing to their way of thinking, and generally comes off as a know-it-all.
...But like I said earlier - maybe it's just me...It's only my opinion...and I could be wrong.
Actually, I was referring to the mentality behind this post:
There's assumptions here that I thought go along the same line of thinking prevalent in TWI leadership – elitism; Leadership by those who are supposedly superior in some way. Elitism is what perpetuates that "learned helplessness" of typical TWI followers. They're encouraged to look to leadership for answers - as if responding to a commercial by the spiritually elite, We're super achievers! You need us to spoon-feed you the Word. It's a system that breeds dependency. And it happens in other groups too.
That's one of the reasons I've said on other threads – folks who were involved with TWI really have no business starting their own ministry. Besides regurgitating some of the skewed doctrines of TWI – they often stick with some of the faulty thought processes. So vp was essential to a follower's belief system morphs into now our leadership is essential to a follower's belief system…Usually the elitist gives off an air of superiority, tries to bully people into kowtowing to their way of thinking, and generally comes off as a know-it-all.
...But like I said earlier - maybe it's just me...It's only my opinion...and I could be wrong.
The mentality behind this post is that of someone who has seen just that....therefore, I posted!
Having been in churches now for the last 12 years and seeing church goers who still can't find the Gospels after sitting there for 25 years, kind of tells you something, T-Bone!
So save your FLAMES for another poster. I only wrote that which I've seen.
Some of it is as you say a "learned helplessness", brought on by such leadership that waters down the Word to get the moustached infants to eat. Then there's other
church goers that no matter how hard the minister tries to get them to study, to try and raise the bar...they sit and balk like mules with an attitude of "you can't make me learn if I don't want to!"
But if you disagreed with one of my posts, just say so. When were you ever shy?
If I was a member of one of those churches and aware of the low opinion these ministers have of folks who are not into studying – I'd probably balk like a mule too.
If I was a member of one of those churches and aware of the low opinion these ministers have of folks who are not into studying – I'd probably balk like a mule too.
The opinion was mine, Tbone....first year seminary....rudest awakening I ever had....shocker really. What a difference from sitting on the receiving side of the pulpit to the giving side. My seminary profs spoke of it, and sitting on the student side thought that they were making it up or something....HAH! Unfortunately, they weren't!
Back in the church, for instance, a woman was a member for the last 25 years and one day comes up to me to ask me about... baptism.....the simplest aspect of it too, (had to force my mouth to stay shut, it wanted to fall on the floor). So whose fault? Past ministers that couldn't teach? She had no desire to read the Bible? Couldn't read very well? So where was the broken line of connectivity to the teaching experience? Unknown.
Then did I understand what the writer of Hebrews meant when he said that you should already be teachers, and yet I need to feed you milk and not meat.
It's not a low opinion Tbone, rather a sad one. The Reformation was meant to cure this very ill....and behold....the ministers afterwards slowly incorporated the very evil they sought to stamp out with the church that they left. Behold the fruit.
The opinion was mine, Tbone....first year seminary....rudest awakening I ever had....shocker really. What a difference from sitting on the receiving side of the pulpit to the giving side. My seminary profs spoke of it, and sitting on the student side thought that they were making it up or something....HAH! Unfortunately, they weren't!
Back in the church, for instance, a woman was a member for the last 25 years and one day comes up to me to ask me about... baptism.....the simplest aspect of it too, (had to force my mouth to stay shut, it wanted to fall on the floor). So whose fault? Past ministers that couldn't teach? She had no desire to read the Bible? Couldn't read very well? So where was the broken line of connectivity to the teaching experience? Unknown.
Then did I understand what the writer of Hebrews meant when he said that you should already be teachers, and yet I need to feed you milk and not meat.
It's not a low opinion Tbone, rather a sad one. The Reformation was meant to cure this very ill....and behold....the ministers afterwards slowly incorporated the very evil they sought to stamp out with the church that they left. Behold the fruit.
Bride - are you a full-time paid minister in a church?
THIS was the rudest awakening you've ever had?
I attend the church I do because it feeds my spiritual hunger. The preacher inspires me to go home and continue reading what he taught on in the service. My favorite services are when I feel excited to learn more of what he'd started in church.
I can't bring myself to attend every month yet, much less every week, but I always feel very welcomed and appreciated when I do get there.
I was in the way for 15 years. At one time I knew the order of the books of the bible very well. Today sometimes I fumble around when looking even for a church epistle. It never dawned on me I might be judged unworthy by someone sitting where they can see my clumsiness. You blew my mind there, Sister.
Did it ever occur to you that maybe the lady who asked you about baptism just felt comfortable asking YOU a question, thinking someone else might judge her lazy for not knowing all about it by now?
Did it ever occur to you that maybe the lady who asked you about baptism just felt comfortable asking YOU a question, thinking someone else might judge her lazy for not knowing all about it by now?
That was my concern as well.
I am more annoyed with know it all clergy who bask in their own superior sense of knowledge than I am with people who have genuine questions
Using Brides illustration there are many different interpretations of Baptism, , some like TWI dont place any weight or significance on it at all, others dip, some dunk, some sprinkle, some have it as a substantial part of their doctrine, some do it for infants, others say that doesnt count, some require months of preparation others will soak you the first chance they get. All of them who propound whatever view have it all 'backed up' with scripture of their own choosing
If someone has been through 25 years of preachers Is it any wonder that they have questions?
Bride - are you a full-time paid minister in a church?
THIS was the rudest awakening you've ever had?
In this category, Bowtwi, yes...first year seminary student....as I said didn't really believe what my profs told me...thinking that the spiritual hunger that I had was or should be in everyone else.
I attend the church I do because it feeds my spiritual hunger. The preacher inspires me to go home and continue reading what he taught on in the service. My favorite services are when I feel excited to learn more of what he'd started in church.
I can't bring myself to attend every month yet, much less every week, but I always feel very welcomed and appreciated when I do get there.
I was in the way for 15 years. At one time I knew the order of the books of the bible very well. Today sometimes I fumble around when looking even for a church epistle. It never dawned on me I might be judged unworthy by someone sitting where they can see my clumsiness. You blew my mind there, Sister.
I wasn't judging her per se, the question was asked privately, and I gladly answered her....but it got me thinking...if she could sit in a church for 25 years and somehow not know the most basic of christian doctrines....how many others were in similar conditions? What was their spiritual understandings? When you prepare sermons/teachings the thought can be overwhelming....how do you give meat....mush....milk....at the same time? How do you attempt to raise the bar for the unlearned without boring to tears the more advanced learners?
Did it ever occur to you that maybe the lady who asked you about baptism just felt comfortable asking YOU a question, thinking someone else might judge her lazy for not knowing all about it by now?
Don't get me wrong...she was a sweet sister with a heart of gold...it just blew me away as well...wondering how these things could even exist. I realize you cannot force people to learn....you can't make them read their bibles...you can't make them attend church...you can't make them pay attention when they are sitting there, just pray for them and hope somehow you can generate an interest in learning that doesn't daunt the unlearned and make them feel as if they will never get it, conversely, how do you hold the attention of the learned ones who are looking at you waiting for a new challenge?
I am more annoyed with know it all clergy who bask in their own superior sense of knowledge than I am with people who have genuine questions
Using Brides illustration there are many different interpretations of Baptism, , some like TWI dont place any weight or significance on it at all, others dip, some dunk, some sprinkle, some have it as a substantial part of their doctrine, some do it for infants, others say that doesnt count, some require months of preparation others will soak you the first chance they get. All of them who propound whatever view have it all 'backed up' with scripture of their own choosing
If someone has been through 25 years of preachers Is it any wonder that they have questions?
As I stated in my post Mstar...past ministers who couldn't teach/communicate?...assumed that everyone was understanding it?....remained aloof and no one would ask him/her any questions?....so where, again, the line of broken connectivity in the teaching experience? Unknown. That was one of the reasons for the Reformation, because the Catholic church had deliberately kept the bible in Latin and Greek for the NT and Hebrew for the OT, so the parishioners couldn't read it for themselves anyway. Therefore, they were kept in a state that required spoon feeding. But in today's society, a proliferation of bibles exist, you can even get free ones from the Gideons. So if I was encountering this problem where I was...what was in other churches?
So yeah, these were just some of the thoughts that ran through my mind. I think I had better stop....else I'll unload.
I can understand a genuine minister's concern for their church and promoting Bible study. But experience has proved many a Scripture to be true – like knowledge puffs up. In TWI, Bible-knowledge ruled! Funny, how vp could impress a crowd with his knowledge of Ephesians – the Greek words, the figures of speech, the cross-references – yet it seems love your neighbor as yourself didn't impress him much when it came to molesting women.
If I were a minister, how I would "raise the bar" is by asking folks [myself included, of course] what are you doing with what you know? I now view Bible study as a means to an end [connecting with God and honoring Him with what I do] rather than an end in itself [becoming a Bible know-it-all].
But in today's society, a proliferation of bibles exist, you can even get free ones from the Gideons. So if I was encountering this problem where I was...what was in other churches?
bride,
i think that what you may be seeing is the result of the laodicean church in our society...
there are many people who sit in churches, but are not spiritually hungry... people come to church for a variety of reasons, and it is sad but true that the majority of them are not there for spiritual truth... many false prophets are gone out into the world, and the "laodiceans" follow them to get their ears tickled and their egos stroked... just take a look at TBN, daystar, and some of the other "religious" channels... people are following all kinds of "men" instead of following the Lord Jesus Christ... the gospel has been watered down, and many pastors do not teach the simple truth (but rather their own twisted interpretation)... others teach a social gospel or substitute pop psychology for biblical doctrine...
i am not saying that any of this specifically applies to the one woman in your post, but i do think that there is a general trend for churches (both pastors and congregations) to increase in laodicean characteristics... and according to rev.3:20, the laodicean church is not even born again... but then this is probably why it will be so easy to set up a one world religion... because the laodicean church blends into the world...
I can understand a genuine minister's concern for their church and promoting Bible study. But experience has proved many a Scripture to be true – like knowledge puffs up. In TWI, Bible-knowledge ruled! Funny, how vp could impress a crowd with his knowledge of Ephesians – the Greek words, the figures of speech, the cross-references – yet it seems love your neighbor as yourself didn't impress him much when it came to molesting women.
If I were a minister, how I would "raise the bar" is by asking folks [myself included, of course] what are you doing with what you know? I now view Bible study as a means to an end [connecting with God and honoring Him with what I do] rather than an end in itself [becoming a Bible know-it-all].
I agree with you in that it should be the means to an end, i.e. walking in the Spirit and with power, and not just the acquisition of knowledge. What difference? We see it in the book of James: what good is it if I have the necessary things to help someone but only tell them, "Be warm and filled" etc. while they are still hungry and cold? We were spiritual babies in TWI and so were impressed with "knowledge," or an "implied knowledge." But knowledge is not true knowledge if it doesn't penetrate the heart.
But if people are sitting in churches year after year without imbibing the spiritual food to the end that growth occurs....does it make the server only a vain babbler? Hmmmm...maybe this could be another aspect that can be applied to our "now" of what Paul meant in Corinthians? Albeit, it remains with speaking in tongues, but the application could be implied. Food for thought
i think that what you may be seeing is the result of the laodicean church in our society...
there are many people who sit in churches, but are not spiritually hungry... people come to church for a variety of reasons, and it is sad but true that the majority of them are not there for spiritual truth... many false prophets are gone out into the world, and the "laodiceans" follow them to get their ears tickled and their egos stroked... just take a look at TBN, daystar, and some of the other "religious" channels... people are following all kinds of "men" instead of following the Lord Jesus Christ... the gospel has been watered down, and many pastors do not teach the simple truth (but rather their own twisted interpretation)... others teach a social gospel or substitute pop psychology for biblical doctrine...
i am not saying that any of this specifically applies to the one woman in your post, but i do think that there is a general trend for churches (both pastors and congregations) to increase in laodicean characteristics... and according to rev.3:20, the laodicean church is not even born again... but then this is probably why it will be so easy to set up a one world religion... because the laodicean church blends into the world...
shalom,
jen-o
I didn't really want to go there..... :( But since you did.... :( that is an ever present concern...you should have added Joel Olsteen(sp?) as well. You're absolutely right, unfortunately, that many churches have gone the way of wanting to blend into the world with their church building programs and their desire to be MEGA churches, rather than sitting at the feet of the HOLY ONE OF ISRAEL. There is nothing wrong in an of itself with any church program, such as running an ophanage or getting involved with the homeless, but when the physical needs of those who are suffering become more important than the spiritual food that one can offer to people, it becomes just another type of state run program with endless bureaucratic red tape to enable you to think that you are somehow making a difference. The only thing that will count in the end is whether or not you KNEW the Lord Jesus Christ. NOW IF HE calls you to set up a program, THEN DO IT, but somehow I think that HIS EMPHASIS will be on the SPIRITUAL first rather than just the physical. For in the end these bodies are but dust and will return to that state from whence they were taken.
But you're right Jen-0, I won't say all because that wouldn't be true, but many preach what will keep the money rolling in, rather than preach repentance or deliverance which will then enable the person to be set free, so that a true learning will begin to happen and a real relationship with the Lord. In two sermons that I delivered on spiritual deliverance, it was very obvious that we have an enemy....barely anyone there for the evening service and I remarked, "It is interesting that when I get ready to teach on this subject the numbers of people that fail to show up. But also remarkable are the ones who do come to church to hear this topic." Today, many church goers probably don't even know what a real relationship with the Lord is like and sad to say, they just might hear the words in Mt. 7. I hope not. Much prayer is needed and I hope you make that a top priority in your life.
that's kinda funny... cuz joel osteen was the first one i thought of... =:~o
but i really didn't want to post a list of names (not that i'm adverse to that.. because i think these folks (and their "teachings") should be exposed)... but this thread is about vpw, and i didn't really want to post some lengthy dissertation on the laodicean church (although vpw was a part of it)...
not sure why you "didn't really want to go there" (with sad face icons even)
i'm not trying to hijack the thread; and i do think vpw was essential to a follower's belief system (from twi's point of view anyway)
although i also think that many people today follow "the man" at the top of the organization instead of following the Lord Jesus... somehow folks think that these "men" are suppose to have some "better" connection, some "special" connection to God... and most of the time, it's the blind leading the blind... which results in the fact that many do not know the Lord...
those are some scary words in matthew 7...
i find them horrifying actually...
to think that people have a facade of "christianity" and know all the right things to say, but Jesus says: "Depart from Me, I never knew you."
that's kinda funny... cuz joel osteen was the first one i thought of... =:~o
but i really didn't want to post a list of names (not that i'm adverse to that.. because i think these folks (and their "teachings") should be exposed)... but this thread is about vpw, and i didn't really want to post some lengthy dissertation on the laodicean church (although vpw was a part of it)...
not sure why you "didn't really want to go there" (with sad face icons even)
i'm not trying to hijack the thread; and i do think vpw was essential to a follower's belief system (from twi's point of view anyway)
although i also think that many people today follow "the man" at the top of the organization instead of following the Lord Jesus... somehow folks think that these "men" are suppose to have some "better" connection, some "special" connection to God... and most of the time, it's the blind leading the blind... which results in the fact that many do not know the Lord...
those are some scary words in matthew 7...
i find them horrifying actually...
to think that people have a facade of "christianity" and know all the right things to say, but Jesus says: "Depart from Me, I never knew you."
oh that men would seek His face!
shalom,
jen-o
You mentioned that I might be witnessing part of the Laodicean church is the USA, and I really just didn't want to go there, but it is an ever present possibility as we move ever closer to the return of the Lord Jesus Christ.
This thread is about VPW, but how many people did he affect with his doctrine. One didn't necessarily had to have spent 20 years in TWI to be infected with it. One could have been a friend of a friend type thing, but very impressionable. He probably even incorporated aspects of Carnegie into it as well.
Thinking that someone else has a better or stronger connection to the Lord than another is not the best way to express it; however, that connection is rather like a muscle that needs to be regularly exercised.
I think Mt. 7 was meant to be horrifying - after all, it was written to the Jews and the concept of being cast out of the tribes and your name blotted out was just that indeed. It should be horrifying to us as well, seeing that we are grafted into the root stock of Israel.
i worded it this way because most people actually DO think in these terms...
i.e. people do think that certain "men" have a "better" connection, a "special" connection to God...
people thought it about vpw (and other "way" leaders) and those leaders themselves promoted that view...
people also think in these terms about other false teachers in the world today (benny hinn, joel osteen, etc. etc. etc.)
i think matthew 7:21-23 applies to anyonewho calls Jesus, 'Lord'...
i'm not sure it even applies to the jews since they do not recognize Jesus as Lord, and therefore do not call him Lord...
surely, you don't think that everything Jesus said was written only to the jews??
(i know that twi taught this kind of thing, and relegated Jesus to a backseat position)
shalom,
jen-o
But then isn't that was Simon Magus did? This was his power over the people, that he had some kind of super-connection to the spirit realm? I see what you are saying, Jen-o, however, I said what I said because anyone who so desires to have a rich and powerful connection to the Lord Jesus Christ, can have it if they will only spend the time to cultivate their relationship with HIM.
But this is the false acquisition of power and control over others that false teachers garner for themselves, and it works because of the ignorance of the Word of God in the churches. It is my sad opinion this is also representative of the "spirit of Nicolaitans and their deeds." In the Greek, the word Nico is from Nikay and Laitans stems from Laos, so both together equals: POWER OVER + PEOPLE. Would you agree?
I am not dispensational as TWI was and consequently shoved this doctrine down the throats of spiritual babies. However, Jesus was speaking to Jewish people, since that is who HE came to so that Scriptures could be fulfilled. HIS disciples were Jewish, (except I believe Judas, his family was from way down south of Judea) and hence were acutely aware of the shame that it would bring if your name was blotted out and you were cast out of the tribe. This was understood to not only be of the moment but for eternity as well and would follow you forever. This would be on par with blasphemy of the Holy Spirit, in that it would not be forgiven in this life and neither in the next. While it was written to the Jews, one must realize that we have been grafted into the root stock of Israel, therefore, you and I are Jews now and hence the Gospels are also written to us.
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wing
Thank you for your imput Twinky.
At our church study group, when I ask about those "pop-up" topics, I usually don't give a reason either. Just that I am curious about something.
The answers do vary. Depends sometimes on how I ask. Also depends on who happens to be at the group at the time. Because there are some people who think that they know so........ much! And there are others who just want to learn together.
Like you described of your church, I would say that mine is also a good church. The pastor in his teachings focuses on Bible themes (as opposed to current event themes). I appreciate that his particular style can include presenting balanced summaries of how scholars may disagree on the topic. If he can resolve it, he will explain why he feels this way or that. But if he cannot resolve it, he is very comfortable saying "I don't know".
After experiencing TWI, or an offshoot; "I don't know" can be very good words to hear.
wing
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T-Bone
I don't know…maybe it's just me…some of this reminds me of the elitist attitude I saw in the Corps.
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brideofjc
To which do you refer? The Christians who wish to be spoon fed or the ministers who minister it?
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T-Bone
Actually, I was referring to the mentality behind this post:
There's assumptions here that I thought go along the same line of thinking prevalent in TWI leadership – elitism; Leadership by those who are supposedly superior in some way. Elitism is what perpetuates that "learned helplessness" of typical TWI followers. They're encouraged to look to leadership for answers - as if responding to a commercial by the spiritually elite, We're super achievers! You need us to spoon-feed you the Word. It's a system that breeds dependency. And it happens in other groups too.
That's one of the reasons I've said on other threads – folks who were involved with TWI really have no business starting their own ministry. Besides regurgitating some of the skewed doctrines of TWI – they often stick with some of the faulty thought processes. So vp was essential to a follower's belief system morphs into now our leadership is essential to a follower's belief system…Usually the elitist gives off an air of superiority, tries to bully people into kowtowing to their way of thinking, and generally comes off as a know-it-all.
...But like I said earlier - maybe it's just me...It's only my opinion...and I could be wrong.
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brideofjc
The mentality behind this post is that of someone who has seen just that....therefore, I posted!
Having been in churches now for the last 12 years and seeing church goers who still can't find the Gospels after sitting there for 25 years, kind of tells you something, T-Bone!
So save your FLAMES for another poster. I only wrote that which I've seen.
Some of it is as you say a "learned helplessness", brought on by such leadership that waters down the Word to get the moustached infants to eat. Then there's other
church goers that no matter how hard the minister tries to get them to study, to try and raise the bar...they sit and balk like mules with an attitude of "you can't make me learn if I don't want to!"
But if you disagreed with one of my posts, just say so. When were you ever shy?
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T-Bone
If I was a member of one of those churches and aware of the low opinion these ministers have of folks who are not into studying – I'd probably balk like a mule too.
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brideofjc
The opinion was mine, Tbone....first year seminary....rudest awakening I ever had....shocker really. What a difference from sitting on the receiving side of the pulpit to the giving side. My seminary profs spoke of it, and sitting on the student side thought that they were making it up or something....HAH! Unfortunately, they weren't!
Back in the church, for instance, a woman was a member for the last 25 years and one day comes up to me to ask me about... baptism.....the simplest aspect of it too, (had to force my mouth to stay shut, it wanted to fall on the floor). So whose fault? Past ministers that couldn't teach? She had no desire to read the Bible? Couldn't read very well? So where was the broken line of connectivity to the teaching experience? Unknown.
Then did I understand what the writer of Hebrews meant when he said that you should already be teachers, and yet I need to feed you milk and not meat.
It's not a low opinion Tbone, rather a sad one. The Reformation was meant to cure this very ill....and behold....the ministers afterwards slowly incorporated the very evil they sought to stamp out with the church that they left. Behold the fruit.
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bowtwi
Bride - are you a full-time paid minister in a church?
THIS was the rudest awakening you've ever had?
I attend the church I do because it feeds my spiritual hunger. The preacher inspires me to go home and continue reading what he taught on in the service. My favorite services are when I feel excited to learn more of what he'd started in church.
I can't bring myself to attend every month yet, much less every week, but I always feel very welcomed and appreciated when I do get there.
I was in the way for 15 years. At one time I knew the order of the books of the bible very well. Today sometimes I fumble around when looking even for a church epistle. It never dawned on me I might be judged unworthy by someone sitting where they can see my clumsiness. You blew my mind there, Sister.
Did it ever occur to you that maybe the lady who asked you about baptism just felt comfortable asking YOU a question, thinking someone else might judge her lazy for not knowing all about it by now?
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mstar1
That was my concern as well.
I am more annoyed with know it all clergy who bask in their own superior sense of knowledge than I am with people who have genuine questions
Using Brides illustration there are many different interpretations of Baptism, , some like TWI dont place any weight or significance on it at all, others dip, some dunk, some sprinkle, some have it as a substantial part of their doctrine, some do it for infants, others say that doesnt count, some require months of preparation others will soak you the first chance they get. All of them who propound whatever view have it all 'backed up' with scripture of their own choosing
If someone has been through 25 years of preachers Is it any wonder that they have questions?
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brideofjc
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brideofjc
As I stated in my post Mstar...past ministers who couldn't teach/communicate?...assumed that everyone was understanding it?....remained aloof and no one would ask him/her any questions?....so where, again, the line of broken connectivity in the teaching experience? Unknown. That was one of the reasons for the Reformation, because the Catholic church had deliberately kept the bible in Latin and Greek for the NT and Hebrew for the OT, so the parishioners couldn't read it for themselves anyway. Therefore, they were kept in a state that required spoon feeding. But in today's society, a proliferation of bibles exist, you can even get free ones from the Gideons. So if I was encountering this problem where I was...what was in other churches?
So yeah, these were just some of the thoughts that ran through my mind. I think I had better stop....else I'll unload.
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excathedra
eeeeeewwwwwwwww
did someone mention deep study ?
i'm leaving
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brideofjc
:unsure:
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T-Bone
I can understand a genuine minister's concern for their church and promoting Bible study. But experience has proved many a Scripture to be true – like knowledge puffs up. In TWI, Bible-knowledge ruled! Funny, how vp could impress a crowd with his knowledge of Ephesians – the Greek words, the figures of speech, the cross-references – yet it seems love your neighbor as yourself didn't impress him much when it came to molesting women.
If I were a minister, how I would "raise the bar" is by asking folks [myself included, of course] what are you doing with what you know? I now view Bible study as a means to an end [connecting with God and honoring Him with what I do] rather than an end in itself [becoming a Bible know-it-all].
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jen-o
bride,
i think that what you may be seeing is the result of the laodicean church in our society...
there are many people who sit in churches, but are not spiritually hungry... people come to church for a variety of reasons, and it is sad but true that the majority of them are not there for spiritual truth... many false prophets are gone out into the world, and the "laodiceans" follow them to get their ears tickled and their egos stroked... just take a look at TBN, daystar, and some of the other "religious" channels... people are following all kinds of "men" instead of following the Lord Jesus Christ... the gospel has been watered down, and many pastors do not teach the simple truth (but rather their own twisted interpretation)... others teach a social gospel or substitute pop psychology for biblical doctrine...
i am not saying that any of this specifically applies to the one woman in your post, but i do think that there is a general trend for churches (both pastors and congregations) to increase in laodicean characteristics... and according to rev.3:20, the laodicean church is not even born again... but then this is probably why it will be so easy to set up a one world religion... because the laodicean church blends into the world...
shalom,
jen-o
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brideofjc
I agree with you in that it should be the means to an end, i.e. walking in the Spirit and with power, and not just the acquisition of knowledge. What difference? We see it in the book of James: what good is it if I have the necessary things to help someone but only tell them, "Be warm and filled" etc. while they are still hungry and cold? We were spiritual babies in TWI and so were impressed with "knowledge," or an "implied knowledge." But knowledge is not true knowledge if it doesn't penetrate the heart.
But if people are sitting in churches year after year without imbibing the spiritual food to the end that growth occurs....does it make the server only a vain babbler? Hmmmm...maybe this could be another aspect that can be applied to our "now" of what Paul meant in Corinthians? Albeit, it remains with speaking in tongues, but the application could be implied. Food for thought
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brideofjc
I didn't really want to go there..... :( But since you did.... :( that is an ever present concern...you should have added Joel Olsteen(sp?) as well. You're absolutely right, unfortunately, that many churches have gone the way of wanting to blend into the world with their church building programs and their desire to be MEGA churches, rather than sitting at the feet of the HOLY ONE OF ISRAEL. There is nothing wrong in an of itself with any church program, such as running an ophanage or getting involved with the homeless, but when the physical needs of those who are suffering become more important than the spiritual food that one can offer to people, it becomes just another type of state run program with endless bureaucratic red tape to enable you to think that you are somehow making a difference. The only thing that will count in the end is whether or not you KNEW the Lord Jesus Christ. NOW IF HE calls you to set up a program, THEN DO IT, but somehow I think that HIS EMPHASIS will be on the SPIRITUAL first rather than just the physical. For in the end these bodies are but dust and will return to that state from whence they were taken.
But you're right Jen-0, I won't say all because that wouldn't be true, but many preach what will keep the money rolling in, rather than preach repentance or deliverance which will then enable the person to be set free, so that a true learning will begin to happen and a real relationship with the Lord. In two sermons that I delivered on spiritual deliverance, it was very obvious that we have an enemy....barely anyone there for the evening service and I remarked, "It is interesting that when I get ready to teach on this subject the numbers of people that fail to show up. But also remarkable are the ones who do come to church to hear this topic." Today, many church goers probably don't even know what a real relationship with the Lord is like and sad to say, they just might hear the words in Mt. 7. I hope not. Much prayer is needed and I hope you make that a top priority in your life.
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jen-o
hey bride,
that's kinda funny... cuz joel osteen was the first one i thought of... =:~o
but i really didn't want to post a list of names (not that i'm adverse to that.. because i think these folks (and their "teachings") should be exposed)... but this thread is about vpw, and i didn't really want to post some lengthy dissertation on the laodicean church (although vpw was a part of it)...
not sure why you "didn't really want to go there" (with sad face icons even)
i'm not trying to hijack the thread; and i do think vpw was essential to a follower's belief system (from twi's point of view anyway)
although i also think that many people today follow "the man" at the top of the organization instead of following the Lord Jesus... somehow folks think that these "men" are suppose to have some "better" connection, some "special" connection to God... and most of the time, it's the blind leading the blind... which results in the fact that many do not know the Lord...
those are some scary words in matthew 7...
i find them horrifying actually...
to think that people have a facade of "christianity" and know all the right things to say, but Jesus says: "Depart from Me, I never knew you."
oh that men would seek His face!
shalom,
jen-o
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likeaneagle
you go Groucho!!
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brideofjc
You mentioned that I might be witnessing part of the Laodicean church is the USA, and I really just didn't want to go there, but it is an ever present possibility as we move ever closer to the return of the Lord Jesus Christ.
This thread is about VPW, but how many people did he affect with his doctrine. One didn't necessarily had to have spent 20 years in TWI to be infected with it. One could have been a friend of a friend type thing, but very impressionable. He probably even incorporated aspects of Carnegie into it as well.
Thinking that someone else has a better or stronger connection to the Lord than another is not the best way to express it; however, that connection is rather like a muscle that needs to be regularly exercised.
I think Mt. 7 was meant to be horrifying - after all, it was written to the Jews and the concept of being cast out of the tribes and your name blotted out was just that indeed. It should be horrifying to us as well, seeing that we are grafted into the root stock of Israel.
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jen-o
i worded it this way because most people actually DO think in these terms...
i.e. people do think that certain "men" have a "better" connection, a "special" connection to God...
people thought it about vpw (and other "way" leaders) and those leaders themselves promoted that view...
people also think in these terms about other false teachers in the world today (benny hinn, joel osteen, etc. etc. etc.)
i think matthew 7:21-23 applies to anyone who calls Jesus, 'Lord'...
i'm not sure it even applies to the jews since they do not recognize Jesus as Lord, and therefore do not call him Lord...
surely, you don't think that everything Jesus said was written only to the jews??
(i know that twi taught this kind of thing, and relegated Jesus to a backseat position)
shalom,
jen-o
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Ham
I dunno..
sometimes I think.. ya know, if he has all of the answers.. he's the one who has to reach ME.. not the other way around..
:)
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jen-o
hey, you cute little ham-ster, um squirrel (i'm still not sure bout this... LOL)
who does the "he" refer to? (Jesus or a pastor/minister?)
peace,
jen-o
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brideofjc
But then isn't that was Simon Magus did? This was his power over the people, that he had some kind of super-connection to the spirit realm? I see what you are saying, Jen-o, however, I said what I said because anyone who so desires to have a rich and powerful connection to the Lord Jesus Christ, can have it if they will only spend the time to cultivate their relationship with HIM.
But this is the false acquisition of power and control over others that false teachers garner for themselves, and it works because of the ignorance of the Word of God in the churches. It is my sad opinion this is also representative of the "spirit of Nicolaitans and their deeds." In the Greek, the word Nico is from Nikay and Laitans stems from Laos, so both together equals: POWER OVER + PEOPLE. Would you agree?
I am not dispensational as TWI was and consequently shoved this doctrine down the throats of spiritual babies. However, Jesus was speaking to Jewish people, since that is who HE came to so that Scriptures could be fulfilled. HIS disciples were Jewish, (except I believe Judas, his family was from way down south of Judea) and hence were acutely aware of the shame that it would bring if your name was blotted out and you were cast out of the tribe. This was understood to not only be of the moment but for eternity as well and would follow you forever. This would be on par with blasphemy of the Holy Spirit, in that it would not be forgiven in this life and neither in the next. While it was written to the Jews, one must realize that we have been grafted into the root stock of Israel, therefore, you and I are Jews now and hence the Gospels are also written to us.
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