Why is it really anyone's business, other than mine, whether I walk through "the pearly gates" or not when it's all over?
BECAUSE, we Christians love you! (there, I did an italics). Man, think about it! If I knew where someone I care for was wrong and headed down the wrong road and was going to crash because of something they ditnt know about that was there, I would want to warn them so they wouldnt get hurt! Because I CARE for my fellow human bean (being), I would want to help them avoid a disaster! What is so evil about that? I want every one to have Eternal Life! Really, why is it so wrong to want others to experience something as wonderful as Forever Lasting Life?
BECAUSE, we Christians love you! (there, I did an italics). Man, think about it! If I knew where someone I care for was wrong and headed down the wrong road and was going to crash because of something they ditnt know about that was there, I would want to warn them so they wouldnt get hurt! Because I CARE for my fellow human bean (being), I would want to help them avoid a disaster! What is so evil about that? I want every one to have Eternal Life! Really, why is it so wrong to want others to experience something as wonderful as Forever Lasting Life?
That's one way of looking at it. Another: I can't do someone else's push ups, even though they need to lose weight, I can't eat someone else's food, even though they're starving, I can't go to the bathroom for someone else....no matter how much I love them.
Whatever path they choose, hard as it may be, I have to let them learn their own lessons.
However, what I've found a the core of all that concern for my well being in most churches is really just a desire to spread their doctrine, inflate their numbers, and fill the churches coffers. I was just ears to fill their doctrine with, a warm body to increase their voting block, and a set of pockets for their collection plates.
Most churches have lost the human element and have become filled with paint by the number Christianity.
BECAUSE, we Christians love you! (there, I did an italics). Man, think about it! If I knew where someone I care for was wrong and headed down the wrong road and was going to crash because of something they ditnt know about that was there, I would want to warn them so they wouldnt get hurt! Because I CARE for my fellow human bean (being), I would want to help them avoid a disaster! What is so evil about that? I want every one to have Eternal Life! Really, why is it so wrong to want others to experience something as wonderful as Forever Lasting Life?
(snip)
...what guarantee can you offer me of eternal life? You can't. It can't be proven one way or the other. Last I checked, nobody's returned from the dead, to verify or refute an afterlife. Further, according to some religious doctrines, its possible to live a totally pious life and still "go into a blackhole."
Well, the good news is if you ever once for even a second believed in your HEART that Jesus was your Lord and that God raised him from the DEAD, you are going to be at the great gathering together whether you like it or not! And you will be thankful! And that's not VP, that's the Bible. And here is one one those smiley faces, if I can do it right. :)
Well, the good news is if you ever once for even a second believed in your HEART that Jesus was your Lord and that God raised him from the DEAD, you are going to be at the great gathering together whether you like it or not! And you will be thankful! And that's not VP, that's the Bible. And here is one one those smiley faces, if I can do it right. :)
Love ya bro! And God bless! :)
If you're basing that on what you learned in PFAL, I suggest you give some serious thought to VPW's credibility.
I'm not sure how you figure I told anyone how and what they should believe. If you read my post again, without any preconceived notions of what my personal belief system might be, you might just find I said the opposite. If Baha'i works for you, keep it. If Catholicism works for you, keep it. If Buddhism works for you, keep it. It's when you start telling people your system is the only "genuine" system and theirs is "inferior" that conflict rears its ugly head. Why is it really anyone's business, other than mine, whether I walk through "the pearly gates" or not when it's all over? I try to live my life, as best I can, by The Golden Rule. (Every major belief system has a version of it.) If that's not good enough, then so be it. Let the chips fall where they may.
I don't care what you believe, what I do care is when you use absolutes to tell someone how to judge another, while at the same time saying they can't use an absolute. It is hypocritical. When you tell someone it is okay for them to believe what they want, and . . . . "that's fine, as long as you don't use that belief to judge and rate others. That would be elitist" Wow! Well, if that is elitist....what is the correct way to judge and with what proper belief system. Enlighten me. Christianity says there is one way to God, through Jesus Christ John 14:6...if that is wrong and not the way it is and elitist...what is the right way? You must know if you are telling others not to judge by their Christian faith. Why is it your business to tell someone how to judge and use their faith?
People hate absolutes.....unless they are the ones using them.
A big part of our lives is consumed by death, thinking about it, talking about it, worrying about it, preparing for it.... So, what if you kept everything else about Christianity the same but removed the afterlife aspect? Wierwille said, "If we get to Heaven and find out it isn't there, we will have had the best time going." The thing is, we didn't "have "the best time going". If we had, there would be no reason for a forum such as this.
Many people have stated, though not on this particular thread, that one of the things about speaking in tongues that appeals to them is that "It's proof in the senses realm you're going to Heaven and all Hell can't stop you." It's even listed in the PFAL syllabus, in a somewhat round-about fashion, as being one of the benefits of speaking in tongues. But, what if you suddenly found out that might not be true? What if you were to find out that even Pagans speak in tongues and were doing so before Christ ever walked the Earth? What if speaking in tongues was, indeed, all the things listed in PFAL.....except proof of an afterlife. Death is a focal point, not only of Christianity, but many other religions as well. Maybe life, here and now, deserves more attention than the afterlife.
A big part of our lives is consumed by death, thinking about it, talking about it, worrying about it, preparing for it.... So, what if you kept everything else about Christianity the same but removed the afterlife aspect? Wierwille said, "If we get to Heaven and find out it isn't there, we will have had the best time going." The thing is, we didn't "have "the best time going". If we had, there would be no reason for a forum such as this.
Many people have stated, though not on this particular thread, that one of the things about speaking in tongues that appeals to them is that "It's proof in the senses realm you're going to Heaven and all Hell can't stop you." It's even listed in the PFAL syllabus, in a somewhat round-about fashion, as being one of the benefits of speaking in tongues. But, what if you suddenly found out that might not be true? What if you were to find out that even Pagans speak in tongues and were doing so before Christ ever walked the Earth? What if speaking in tongues was, indeed, all the things listed in PFAL.....except proof of an afterlife. Death is a focal point, not only of Christianity, but many other religions as well. Maybe life, here and now, deserves more attention than the afterlife.
The focus of TWI and the focus of Christianity are hardly the same thing. TWI is a pseudo-Christian cult. You made that transition without a break. TWI's focus equals Christianity and its focus? I disagree.
Death is not the focal point of Christianity. Jesus Christ is the focal point of Christianity....life is....He is life and people who really put their faith in Him, do it because of Him. According to scripture we are all unknowingly walking around dead in trespasses and sins without Him anyway. The dead don't walk, but maybe there is actually more to life and death here and now. That is something to consider and people who put their faith in Him for self-preservation, have missed the boat on salvation. It is the goodness of God which leads to repentance before Him. It is a desire for Him.
What if? What if angels could dance on the head of a pin? Why would I ignore the information I do have to genuinely consider from scripture.....and first speculate against it?
Life here does matter. It matters greatly. Have you ever really considered the ten commandments? They are so designed that those who obey them do not violate another persons life. Our lives have value and worth.
Jesus commanded us to love neighbors as ourselves. Someone actually asked Him, "who is my neighbor?". Jesus explained...everyone is your neighbor. That means I, as a Christian, must not only love everyone......but so much so, I should even be willing to give up my life for them. That is a pretty high bar. Should keep me busy trying to live life right in the here and now.
Why assume because someone believes in eternity they are less concerned with their life now? Because TWI equals Christianity?
What if? What if angels could dance on the head of a pin? Why would I ignore the information I do have to genuinely consider from scripture.....and first speculate against it?
But Geshia, isn't the bible one big what if?
What if man was fatally flawed from the get-go (original sin)?
What if he could be saved?
What if there was an afterlife?
What if the universe really were just? How would good be rewarded and bad be punished?
What if there was a purpose for all this?
What if evil had a face?
What if the good force in the universe wrote a book?
No proof exist on any of this one way or the other, its taken on faith. Its taken from a book that self references itself as truth. Is it truth? (shoulder shrug) Its been added to, had parts taken out, and doctrinized over the generations. Maybe it was truth once, but how can we guarantee that now?
Then you add to that charlatins like Saint Vic and JAL teaching out of this book something they know ain't truthful and you have the recipe for a major credibility problem.
If its truth for you, that's fine. I just continue to question....
If you're basing that on what you learned in PFAL, I suggest you give some serious thought to VPW's credibility
How many times do I have to say that I am not talking about PFAL VPW or things from TWI? It seems that some of you seem to be DENSE or something! I am talking about the very basic things the Bible speaks of concearning Jesus and God and Christianity! What about John 3:16? My Mama taught me that when I was little long before TWI.
For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish , but have everlasting life.
Man this place seems to have a one track mind! For your information there are hundreds if not thousands of Christian ministries who believe in eternal Life through Jesus our Lord and Savior! Thank you Geisha for making points I am not good enough to make. I guess here if you once were in TWI but remain a Christian you are to be disbeleived about being a Christian because you are forever soiled as a onetime TWI Christian. Maybe there are better places to go than back into having everything you say questioned like back when I was in TWI! What kind of breeding ground is this place?
If you're basing that on what you learned in PFAL, I suggest you give some serious thought to VPW's credibility
How many times do I have to say that I am not talking about PFAL VPW or things from TWI? It seems that some of you seem to be DENSE or something! I am talking about the very basic things the Bible speaks of concearning Jesus and God and Christianity! What about John 3:16? My Mama taught me that when I was little long before TWI.
For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish , but have everlasting life.
Man this place seems to have a one track mind! For your information there are hundreds if not thousands of Christian ministries who believe in eternal Life through Jesus our Lord and Savior! Thank you Geisha for making points I am not good enough to make. I guess here if you once were in TWI but remain a Christian you are to be disbeleived about being a Christian because you are forever soiled as a onetime TWI Christian. Maybe there are better places to go than back into having everything you say questioned like back when I was in TWI! What kind of breeding ground is this place?
And Waysider I even said this next quote before you asked if I based my thinking on what I learned in PFAL. I may not be good with words like you all but I can read and I know you can to so why ask that from me?
How many times do I have to say that I am not talking about PFAL VPW or things from TWI? It seems that some of you seem to be DENSE or something!
I think he's asking because Saint Vic's doctrine was once saved always saved and SIT was proof that the individual is saved.
If you're basing that on what you learned in PFAL, I suggest you give some serious thought to VPW's credibility.
Before you flew off the handle, maybe you should have looked at the first word in his post: he said "if"--suggesting possibility, but not absolution--not that you were.
And before you start talking about one track minds, don't you think you should reread you last post?
BECAUSE, we Christians love you! (there, I did an italics). Man, think about it! If I knew where someone I care for was wrong and headed down the wrong road and was going to crash because of something they ditnt know about that was there, I would want to warn them so they wouldnt get hurt! Because I CARE for my fellow human bean (being), I would want to help them avoid a disaster! What is so evil about that? I want every one to have Eternal Life! Really, why is it so wrong to want others to experience something as wonderful as Forever Lasting Life?
You don't think this is displaying a one track mind? To ram your beliefs down a persons throat and claim its love? To dog a person repeatedly, even though they've said no thanks.
I understand, you think its a great gift. But you also need to understand, God hasn't even kept promises in a realm I can see, yet you expect me to trust him with things I can't see.
"And Waysider I even said this next quote before you asked if I based my thinking on what I learned in PFAL. I may not be good with words like you all but I can read and I know you can to so why ask that from me?"
That's a fair question.
Let me back up a few quotes to put this in context.
You stated:
"Well, the good news is if you ever once for even a second believed in your HEART that Jesus was your Lord and that God raised him from the DEAD, you are going to be at the great gathering together whether you like it or not! And you will be thankful! And that's not VP, that's the Bible"
I responded with:
"If you're basing that on what you learned in PFAL, I suggest you give some serious thought to VPW's credibility."
What you are presenting here is not what it says in the Bible. What you are presenting is what VPW "implied" it says in the Bible. VPW said a good many things that have been proven to be grievouly in error. Therefore, it only makes sense to examine this statement from a perspective outside of VPW's interpretation. In other words, his credibility is flawed on many issues. What makes you think this isn't one of them?
I think that thou shalt be saved is pretty clear. And so are many other verses.Clear enough for me but I am not going to argue with you people any more about it becuase it is senseless. As Forest Gump said Have A Nice Day! :)
What if man was fatally flawed from the get-go (original sin)?
What if he could be saved?
What if there was an afterlife?
What if the universe really were just? How would good be rewarded and bad be punished?
What if there was a purpose for all this?
What if evil had a face?
What if the good force in the universe wrote a book?
No proof exist on any of this one way or the other, its taken on faith. Its taken from a book that self references itself as truth. Is it truth? (shoulder shrug) Its been added to, had parts taken out, and doctrinized over the generations. Maybe it was truth once, but how can we guarantee that now?
Then you add to that charlatins like Saint Vic and JAL teaching out of this book something they know ain't truthful and you have the recipe for a major credibility problem.
If its truth for you, that's fine. I just continue to question....
SoCrates
I wasn't proselytizing Socrates...and I wasn't extending an invitation for you to believe. Shocker huh? :) I was examining the differences between Christianity and TWI.
But, since you asked and I am home sick.......well sickish.......
I do think there is a good force in the universe. I do think evil has a face......and do you know why I think this way? Because I have seen evil, and I have seen good. Oddly enough, I have seen them both in myself. So, as a searching person, I began to wonder about this. . . . as one does. Why? Why is there evil and why is there good. What is the cause for this...everything that is...has some kind of cause, except for God. (Wink)
The first time I was stung by an injustice, I reacted with indignation. It frustrated and hurt. Why? What made something so unfair it hurt in my heart? The first time I was awed by nature or the first time my heart longed and called out to something I didn't understand......it proved the bible to me. I just didn't know it. We don't go to the bible to learn about life....we live it! We go for the answers to who and why.
You say it has been added to and had things taken out.....what things? What do you think we don't have in scripture that is missing? Even old Bart Erhlam once let it slip we have within 2,000 words of the original work. It was in a radio interview. He has since backtracked on his answer, but it was a classic. What we don't have...in no way effects doctrine. Meaning what we would practice from it.....have you actually really looked into these things? There are many great debates out there...really interesting thinking.
Or are you still justifiably po'ed. You have a very good reason for being angry, I empathize...but, not to be angry with God. Your experience in TWI could serve to make you even more inquisitive......if it is truth....why do some people use it and twist it for such evil. Scripture answers that question too. God actually promises you a little justice.
I wish I had it in me to disabuse you of a few things....I just don't anymore. Once you have examined the historical, the cosmological, the ontological, the teleological, the moral, and the existential arguments for the existence of God.....and really come to examine the cross that cries out from all of them......once you have looked at the evidence for the resurrection, the evidence of eyewitness, the archeological evidence we have.....get back to me on if there is enough "proof" for you.
I really don't believe given all we have....that any of us are going to be able to stand before God and say....you didn't show yourself. He came to dwell among us. How much more do you want? The greatest figure in human history? You have heard of Him. You may choose to say...I don't accept Him. That is the choice He gives us. What rings hollow is, I just don't know. You do know who He claimed to be. Look into it a little more before you decide you just can't know...but, if you don't want to , that is your choice.
Tony. . . . Heaven would not be heaven for those who do not want God. It would not be heaven for those who wish to be autonomous. It is heaven because we are with Him. God does not strong arm...or trick people into heaven. We come willingly to Him...we desire Him.....and faith is an ongoing and lifelong event.
TWI had a children's song...I still remember it...of course we all sang songs like children....but, it was Romans 10, 9&10 I believed it once and then...I've got a life that will never end...I've got Christ in me...whoopee!
That is a bunch of crap.
Don't you think God is deserving of an abiding faith? Able to keep His own? Don't you think our purchase price is worth more than a mouthed confession and a life of sin? Don't you think God deserves an honest and intelligent faith in Him? He told Job to stand up straight and answer Him.
People here are not Christian because they were once persuaded to believe something for awhile. That is not faith.
"How many times do I have to say that I am not talking about PFAL VPW or things from TWI? "
It's a merry go round here on that one, Tony. You're going 'round the first time. After a couple trips you'll see some of these impressions and conclusions made here on GS have become self-referencing. Circular reasoning circling on it'self. And yes, TWI becomes like a bad coffee stain on a shirt - some people are working on getting "it" out, others never will. Others never had it. But like a stain once you get it - stains love company (I guess).
I only speak for myself and my opinions - I can honestly say that while I was "in" the Way and joined as a full membersand poured a lot of my time and energy into it, I was still "me" and still pursuing a personal path of life, faith and all the stuffing that goes along with it. So I never felt particularly manipulated, deluded, brainwashed or wasted in the effort. I was thinking as I went - actually using my brain.
Someone wrote me recently that I'd known years ago and they paid me a compliment, although may not be aware of how much it meant - they wrote "you always seemed like you kept your own counsel". Another has contacted me and written "you helped me, when others wouldn't". Still another wrote me last year and said "thanks for the tapes you gave me years ago, still have them". (they were reel to reels of some Lightning Hopkins). That came before a guy dropped me a note saying he does a version of a song I'd written years ago in the Way. That blessed me.
It really depends on who someone really WAS and IS IMO.
if I were you - and I've posted on this thread too - I wouldn't defend or explain a 1,000 times how you really feel once you've done it if you feel the need to do it on any topic.
Others can define you as a Weirwille "apologist" over time, a sympathiser, someone who doesn't really know what you know and will tell you you won't until you do something else, or stop doing that and start doing - whatever. Seriously. We will be completely serious and write that with a 'straight face'.
Screw that. And screw me while you're at it. Speak your mind and be honest in what you post if you do. Expect to get loads and loads of good advice from well meaning people you've never met. It's what makes the internet so wonderful.
quote: But like a stain once you get it - stains love company (I guess).
Wasn't there a sing along the way song that made mention of 'sin stains'? And who can forget Satori's 'ectoplasm stains: I've tried soaking them out, I've tried scrubbing them out'.
Not trying to trivialize the post. Yeah, speak your mind. That's the ticket.
You say it has been added to and had things taken out.....what things? What do you think we don't have in scripture that is missing? Even old Bart Erhlam once let it slip we have within 2,000 words of the original work.
Within 2000 words of the original that we know of.
The only way to know what was in the original would be to have the original. Which we don't. So there's no way of knowing how much has been added, taken out, or doctrinized.
Within 2000 words of the original that we know of.
The only way to know what was in the original would be to have the original. Which we don't. So there's no way of knowing how much has been added, taken out, or doctrinized.
SoCrates
May I ask why you chose the name SoCrates? I would imagine it holds some significance for you?
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mstar1
There used to be something on the frontpage stating that this was not a specifically christian site. There are a lot of christians here, some people of other faiths, and some people who are agnostic o
WordWolf
[it's a site with many Christians that is not specifically a "Christian" site. All are welcome here, especially those with twi history, for whom this site is meant. (Them and people seeking informat
johniam
Well, good. I've progressed from a wierwille apologist to a whipping boy to a polarity responder. That's encouraging. However, I still prefer son of God.
tonyzamboni
BECAUSE, we Christians love you! (there, I did an italics). Man, think about it! If I knew where someone I care for was wrong and headed down the wrong road and was going to crash because of something they ditnt know about that was there, I would want to warn them so they wouldnt get hurt! Because I CARE for my fellow human bean (being), I would want to help them avoid a disaster! What is so evil about that? I want every one to have Eternal Life! Really, why is it so wrong to want others to experience something as wonderful as Forever Lasting Life?
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waysider
Norm MacDonald commenting on death.
CLICK
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So_crates
That's one way of looking at it. Another: I can't do someone else's push ups, even though they need to lose weight, I can't eat someone else's food, even though they're starving, I can't go to the bathroom for someone else....no matter how much I love them.
Whatever path they choose, hard as it may be, I have to let them learn their own lessons.
However, what I've found a the core of all that concern for my well being in most churches is really just a desire to spread their doctrine, inflate their numbers, and fill the churches coffers. I was just ears to fill their doctrine with, a warm body to increase their voting block, and a set of pockets for their collection plates.
Most churches have lost the human element and have become filled with paint by the number Christianity.
Thanks, but no thanks.
SoCrates
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excathedra
i think god will decide all in the end and i love everybody -- well almost lol
i don't care too much about things i can't control
like people's beliefs snort snort
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So_crates
SoCrates
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tonyzamboni
Well, the good news is if you ever once for even a second believed in your HEART that Jesus was your Lord and that God raised him from the DEAD, you are going to be at the great gathering together whether you like it or not! And you will be thankful! And that's not VP, that's the Bible. And here is one one those smiley faces, if I can do it right. :)
Love ya bro! And God bless! :)
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waysider
If you're basing that on what you learned in PFAL, I suggest you give some serious thought to VPW's credibility.
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geisha779
I don't care what you believe, what I do care is when you use absolutes to tell someone how to judge another, while at the same time saying they can't use an absolute. It is hypocritical. When you tell someone it is okay for them to believe what they want, and . . . . "that's fine, as long as you don't use that belief to judge and rate others. That would be elitist" Wow! Well, if that is elitist....what is the correct way to judge and with what proper belief system. Enlighten me. Christianity says there is one way to God, through Jesus Christ John 14:6...if that is wrong and not the way it is and elitist...what is the right way? You must know if you are telling others not to judge by their Christian faith. Why is it your business to tell someone how to judge and use their faith?
People hate absolutes.....unless they are the ones using them.
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waysider
A big part of our lives is consumed by death, thinking about it, talking about it, worrying about it, preparing for it.... So, what if you kept everything else about Christianity the same but removed the afterlife aspect? Wierwille said, "If we get to Heaven and find out it isn't there, we will have had the best time going." The thing is, we didn't "have "the best time going". If we had, there would be no reason for a forum such as this.
Many people have stated, though not on this particular thread, that one of the things about speaking in tongues that appeals to them is that "It's proof in the senses realm you're going to Heaven and all Hell can't stop you." It's even listed in the PFAL syllabus, in a somewhat round-about fashion, as being one of the benefits of speaking in tongues. But, what if you suddenly found out that might not be true? What if you were to find out that even Pagans speak in tongues and were doing so before Christ ever walked the Earth? What if speaking in tongues was, indeed, all the things listed in PFAL.....except proof of an afterlife. Death is a focal point, not only of Christianity, but many other religions as well. Maybe life, here and now, deserves more attention than the afterlife.
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geisha779
The focus of TWI and the focus of Christianity are hardly the same thing. TWI is a pseudo-Christian cult. You made that transition without a break. TWI's focus equals Christianity and its focus? I disagree.
Death is not the focal point of Christianity. Jesus Christ is the focal point of Christianity....life is....He is life and people who really put their faith in Him, do it because of Him. According to scripture we are all unknowingly walking around dead in trespasses and sins without Him anyway. The dead don't walk, but maybe there is actually more to life and death here and now. That is something to consider and people who put their faith in Him for self-preservation, have missed the boat on salvation. It is the goodness of God which leads to repentance before Him. It is a desire for Him.
What if? What if angels could dance on the head of a pin? Why would I ignore the information I do have to genuinely consider from scripture.....and first speculate against it?
Life here does matter. It matters greatly. Have you ever really considered the ten commandments? They are so designed that those who obey them do not violate another persons life. Our lives have value and worth.
Jesus commanded us to love neighbors as ourselves. Someone actually asked Him, "who is my neighbor?". Jesus explained...everyone is your neighbor. That means I, as a Christian, must not only love everyone......but so much so, I should even be willing to give up my life for them. That is a pretty high bar. Should keep me busy trying to live life right in the here and now.
Why assume because someone believes in eternity they are less concerned with their life now? Because TWI equals Christianity?
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So_crates
But Geshia, isn't the bible one big what if?
What if man was fatally flawed from the get-go (original sin)?
What if he could be saved?
What if there was an afterlife?
What if the universe really were just? How would good be rewarded and bad be punished?
What if there was a purpose for all this?
What if evil had a face?
What if the good force in the universe wrote a book?
No proof exist on any of this one way or the other, its taken on faith. Its taken from a book that self references itself as truth. Is it truth? (shoulder shrug) Its been added to, had parts taken out, and doctrinized over the generations. Maybe it was truth once, but how can we guarantee that now?
Then you add to that charlatins like Saint Vic and JAL teaching out of this book something they know ain't truthful and you have the recipe for a major credibility problem.
If its truth for you, that's fine. I just continue to question....
SoCrates
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tonyzamboni
How many times do I have to say that I am not talking about PFAL VPW or things from TWI? It seems that some of you seem to be DENSE or something! I am talking about the very basic things the Bible speaks of concearning Jesus and God and Christianity! What about John 3:16? My Mama taught me that when I was little long before TWI.
Man this place seems to have a one track mind! For your information there are hundreds if not thousands of Christian ministries who believe in eternal Life through Jesus our Lord and Savior! Thank you Geisha for making points I am not good enough to make. I guess here if you once were in TWI but remain a Christian you are to be disbeleived about being a Christian because you are forever soiled as a onetime TWI Christian. Maybe there are better places to go than back into having everything you say questioned like back when I was in TWI! What kind of breeding ground is this place?How many times do I have to say that I am not talking about PFAL VPW or things from TWI? It seems that some of you seem to be DENSE or something! I am talking about the very basic things the Bible speaks of concearning Jesus and God and Christianity! What about John 3:16? My Mama taught me that when I was little long before TWI.
Man this place seems to have a one track mind! For your information there are hundreds if not thousands of Christian ministries who believe in eternal Life through Jesus our Lord and Savior! Thank you Geisha for making points I am not good enough to make. I guess here if you once were in TWI but remain a Christian you are to be disbeleived about being a Christian because you are forever soiled as a onetime TWI Christian. Maybe there are better places to go than back into having everything you say questioned like back when I was in TWI! What kind of breeding ground is this place?And Waysider I even said this next quote before you asked if I based my thinking on what I learned in PFAL. I may not be good with words like you all but I can read and I know you can to so why ask that from me?
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So_crates
I think he's asking because Saint Vic's doctrine was once saved always saved and SIT was proof that the individual is saved.
Before you flew off the handle, maybe you should have looked at the first word in his post: he said "if"--suggesting possibility, but not absolution--not that you were.
And before you start talking about one track minds, don't you think you should reread you last post?
You don't think this is displaying a one track mind? To ram your beliefs down a persons throat and claim its love? To dog a person repeatedly, even though they've said no thanks.
I understand, you think its a great gift. But you also need to understand, God hasn't even kept promises in a realm I can see, yet you expect me to trust him with things I can't see.
SoCrates
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waysider
"And Waysider I even said this next quote before you asked if I based my thinking on what I learned in PFAL. I may not be good with words like you all but I can read and I know you can to so why ask that from me?"
That's a fair question.
Let me back up a few quotes to put this in context.
You stated:
"Well, the good news is if you ever once for even a second believed in your HEART that Jesus was your Lord and that God raised him from the DEAD, you are going to be at the great gathering together whether you like it or not! And you will be thankful! And that's not VP, that's the Bible"
I responded with:
"If you're basing that on what you learned in PFAL, I suggest you give some serious thought to VPW's credibility."
What you are presenting here is not what it says in the Bible. What you are presenting is what VPW "implied" it says in the Bible. VPW said a good many things that have been proven to be grievouly in error. Therefore, it only makes sense to examine this statement from a perspective outside of VPW's interpretation. In other words, his credibility is flawed on many issues. What makes you think this isn't one of them?
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tonyzamboni
I think that thou shalt be saved is pretty clear. And so are many other verses.Clear enough for me but I am not going to argue with you people any more about it becuase it is senseless. As Forest Gump said Have A Nice Day! :)
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Bolshevik
What??? . . . are we supposed to rely on the senses now?? . . . walking by sight I see . . .
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geisha779
I wasn't proselytizing Socrates...and I wasn't extending an invitation for you to believe. Shocker huh? :) I was examining the differences between Christianity and TWI.
But, since you asked and I am home sick.......well sickish.......
I do think there is a good force in the universe. I do think evil has a face......and do you know why I think this way? Because I have seen evil, and I have seen good. Oddly enough, I have seen them both in myself. So, as a searching person, I began to wonder about this. . . . as one does. Why? Why is there evil and why is there good. What is the cause for this...everything that is...has some kind of cause, except for God. (Wink)
The first time I was stung by an injustice, I reacted with indignation. It frustrated and hurt. Why? What made something so unfair it hurt in my heart? The first time I was awed by nature or the first time my heart longed and called out to something I didn't understand......it proved the bible to me. I just didn't know it. We don't go to the bible to learn about life....we live it! We go for the answers to who and why.
You say it has been added to and had things taken out.....what things? What do you think we don't have in scripture that is missing? Even old Bart Erhlam once let it slip we have within 2,000 words of the original work. It was in a radio interview. He has since backtracked on his answer, but it was a classic. What we don't have...in no way effects doctrine. Meaning what we would practice from it.....have you actually really looked into these things? There are many great debates out there...really interesting thinking.
Or are you still justifiably po'ed. You have a very good reason for being angry, I empathize...but, not to be angry with God. Your experience in TWI could serve to make you even more inquisitive......if it is truth....why do some people use it and twist it for such evil. Scripture answers that question too. God actually promises you a little justice.
I wish I had it in me to disabuse you of a few things....I just don't anymore. Once you have examined the historical, the cosmological, the ontological, the teleological, the moral, and the existential arguments for the existence of God.....and really come to examine the cross that cries out from all of them......once you have looked at the evidence for the resurrection, the evidence of eyewitness, the archeological evidence we have.....get back to me on if there is enough "proof" for you.
I really don't believe given all we have....that any of us are going to be able to stand before God and say....you didn't show yourself. He came to dwell among us. How much more do you want? The greatest figure in human history? You have heard of Him. You may choose to say...I don't accept Him. That is the choice He gives us. What rings hollow is, I just don't know. You do know who He claimed to be. Look into it a little more before you decide you just can't know...but, if you don't want to , that is your choice.
I still like ya!! :)
______________________________________________________
Tony. . . . Heaven would not be heaven for those who do not want God. It would not be heaven for those who wish to be autonomous. It is heaven because we are with Him. God does not strong arm...or trick people into heaven. We come willingly to Him...we desire Him.....and faith is an ongoing and lifelong event.
TWI had a children's song...I still remember it...of course we all sang songs like children....but, it was Romans 10, 9&10 I believed it once and then...I've got a life that will never end...I've got Christ in me...whoopee!
That is a bunch of crap.
Don't you think God is deserving of an abiding faith? Able to keep His own? Don't you think our purchase price is worth more than a mouthed confession and a life of sin? Don't you think God deserves an honest and intelligent faith in Him? He told Job to stand up straight and answer Him.
People here are not Christian because they were once persuaded to believe something for awhile. That is not faith.
__________________________________________________________
Geeze...that pain pill really kicked in!
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socks
"How many times do I have to say that I am not talking about PFAL VPW or things from TWI? "
It's a merry go round here on that one, Tony. You're going 'round the first time. After a couple trips you'll see some of these impressions and conclusions made here on GS have become self-referencing. Circular reasoning circling on it'self. And yes, TWI becomes like a bad coffee stain on a shirt - some people are working on getting "it" out, others never will. Others never had it. But like a stain once you get it - stains love company (I guess).
I only speak for myself and my opinions - I can honestly say that while I was "in" the Way and joined as a full membersand poured a lot of my time and energy into it, I was still "me" and still pursuing a personal path of life, faith and all the stuffing that goes along with it. So I never felt particularly manipulated, deluded, brainwashed or wasted in the effort. I was thinking as I went - actually using my brain.
Someone wrote me recently that I'd known years ago and they paid me a compliment, although may not be aware of how much it meant - they wrote "you always seemed like you kept your own counsel". Another has contacted me and written "you helped me, when others wouldn't". Still another wrote me last year and said "thanks for the tapes you gave me years ago, still have them". (they were reel to reels of some Lightning Hopkins). That came before a guy dropped me a note saying he does a version of a song I'd written years ago in the Way. That blessed me.
It really depends on who someone really WAS and IS IMO.
if I were you - and I've posted on this thread too - I wouldn't defend or explain a 1,000 times how you really feel once you've done it if you feel the need to do it on any topic.
Others can define you as a Weirwille "apologist" over time, a sympathiser,
someone who doesn't really know what you know and will tell you you won't until you do something else, or stop doing that and start doing - whatever. Seriously. We will be completely serious and write that with a 'straight face'.
Screw that. And screw me while you're at it.
Speak your mind and be honest in what you post if you do. Expect to get loads and loads of good advice from well meaning people you've never met. 
It's what makes the internet so wonderful.
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johniam
quote: But like a stain once you get it - stains love company (I guess).
Wasn't there a sing along the way song that made mention of 'sin stains'? And who can forget Satori's 'ectoplasm stains: I've tried soaking them out, I've tried scrubbing them out'.
Not trying to trivialize the post. Yeah, speak your mind. That's the ticket.
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So_crates
I always speak my mind, but I'm also aware 90% of communication is packaging your thoughts so your message will be considered.
Again, the purpose of communication is its result. If your not gettting the results you want that means you need to adjust the communication.
SoCrates
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Bolshevik
(and deciding if that's even possible)
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So_crates
Good point, Bolshevik. A major part of communication is knowing when to add your two cents and when to shut up.
SoCrates
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So_crates
Within 2000 words of the original that we know of.
The only way to know what was in the original would be to have the original. Which we don't. So there's no way of knowing how much has been added, taken out, or doctrinized.
SoCrates
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geisha779
May I ask why you chose the name SoCrates? I would imagine it holds some significance for you?
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