Why does Christianity have to be "seen of men" to be legitimate. If I take my family out to see a movie, or do other things that benefit them or my circle of friends, why isn't that good enough for God? I think I'M the one being bullied and even baited right now.
I am sorry if you think you are being bullied, I don't think that is any one person's intention. I can see where you might think it is a pile on though. . . .
Why does Christianity have to be "seen of men" to be legitimate. If I take my family out to see a movie, or do other things that benefit them or my circle of friends, why isn't that good enough for God? I think I'M the one being bullied and even baited right now.
That's a total strawman, John. No one said anything at all about taking your family out to a movie. Don't you ever get tired of the same old diversional song and dance?
Kit, I call it "the impulse to do good" and the spirit of God "working and willing" in a person. The will, the impulse, the responsiveness to extend oneself to another. I like your examples.
In The Way there's always been a "yeah, so what?" attitude towards "good works".
"Won't get you saved!" goes the line.
They need to grow up and stop thinking of themselves and what they get out of others "believing". Salvation and "works" - I get that. That's kind of Christianity 101 IMO. "Not by works, by faith" in Jesus Christ".
Doesn't mean the natural impulse of those saved shouldn't be - wouldn't be - to then do "good work". In fact, the Bible speaks to that quite a bit. In further fact the case is made that it's expected that once saved, living by God's grace and fully vested in the Kingdom of God that one has the wherewithal with which to do some real good towards others so we be good to everyone, and yeah, especially swell to others of the Faith.
I see it as God wants to do good stuff for everyone and He will. Whether we want to sit on our butts and watch from the sidelines and judge whether the plays are by the rule book or not is up to us.
Christians get in the game, get dirty and crack open a cold one at the end of the day. Let someone else keep score.
It's too much of a pain in the as s to sort out who gets what. Err on the side of expansive opportunity ("for God so loved the world that He gave") and there's bound to be some good to come out of it.
To note: Given how the Way's growth has all but ground to a halt and they can't seem to keep people around to save their life one could probably model a growth plan from their example by simply not doing what they do and doing anything else. So if they say "don't give to a good cause" you could start investing in Red Cross tomorrow and be better off. I mean honestly, they could probably get more people to "take the class" by getting dolphins to juggle doughnuts in the desert during a hail storm than anything they're doing.
Doesn't mean the natural impulse of those saved shouldn't be - wouldn't be - to then do "good work". In fact, the Bible speaks to that quite a bit. In further fact the case is made that it's expected that once saved, living by God's grace and fully vested in the Kingdom of God that one has the wherewithal with which to do some real good towards others so we be good to everyone, and yeah, especially swell to others of the Faith.
In The Way there's always been a "yeah, so what?" attitude towards "good works".
Makes me think of 2 things...
1) I once heard Donnie Fugit say that the Jesus freak movement was started by 2 guys who sat through the first 4 sessions of pfal and didn't finish the class. This was supposed to be a bad thing; that they should have stayed put in twi. I just looked up their wikipedia article and, it appears, they had a lot of impact in their time. Especially getting Christians from different groups to spend time together for week long festivals, and that Billy Graham himself was OK with this to an extent. I don't see that as a bad thing.
2) Here in STL there was a 'Church of the abundant life' visible from one of the highways in the 70s/80s. I was told it was started by a lady who was a pfal grad. I don't see that as a bad thing, either.
Here we have 2 examples of people who were exposed to pfal, then went in their own direction and did their own good works. Ralph D once said he thanked God for people like Billy Graham and Oral Roberts. Even LCM once said he didn't really mind people giving to causes like the Salvation Army as long as it wasn't done out of guilt. Eph. says we were saved unto good works. I don't think twi leaders were all oblivious to that. TWIs structure, in and of itself, was not a bad thing. Many good works for God were done in twi. So they charged money for a class. Big deal.
I just can't forget how blatantly viscious the response was at times going out witnessing. It was bizarre. Nobody hates like that without the devil's direct help. The devil is subtle. He got people emotional over the trinity, but that's people. The devil himself and his spirits? They took twi VERY seriously. There was SOMETHING in twis overall presentation that he did NOT want known. The mystery? SIT? ADAN? Not sure, but as long as twi was big enough to potentially get legitimacy and credibility, the attacks never stopped.
The Way was nothing more than another one of thousands of small time, cult-like organizations. PFAL was simply a pyramid scheme, based on the Word-Faith Movement. It's content was highly plagiarized and filled with academic inaccuracies.
Nobody seems to know what the topic IS. On the thread itself it says 'culture of selfishness', then it's about Christ's compassion. Instead of whining, why don't YOU get us "back on topic". You're like that little gold fish in 'the Cat in the Hat'. You think you're the voice of everybody's conscience. You think you're going to sweet talk the devil into changng his ways and turning his life around. Good luck with that.
In The Way there's always been a "yeah, so what?" attitude towards "good works".
Makes me think of 2 things...
1) I once heard Donnie Fugit say that the Jesus freak movement was started by 2 guys who sat through the first 4 sessions of pfal and didn't finish the class. This was supposed to be a bad thing; that they should have stayed put in twi. I just looked up their wikipedia article and, it appears, they had a lot of impact in their time. Especially getting Christians from different groups to spend time together for week long festivals, and that Billy Graham himself was OK with this to an extent. I don't see that as a bad thing.
2) Here in STL there was a 'Church of the abundant life' visible from one of the highways in the 70s/80s. I was told it was started by a lady who was a pfal grad. I don't see that as a bad thing, either.
Here we have 2 examples of people who were exposed to pfal, then went in their own direction and did their own good works. Ralph D once said he thanked God for people like Billy Graham and Oral Roberts. Even LCM once said he didn't really mind people giving to causes like the Salvation Army as long as it wasn't done out of guilt. Eph. says we were saved unto good works. I don't think twi leaders were all oblivious to that. TWIs structure, in and of itself, was not a bad thing. Many good works for God were done in twi. So they charged money for a class. Big deal.
I just can't forget how blatantly viscious the response was at times going out witnessing. It was bizarre. Nobody hates like that without the devil's direct help. The devil is subtle. He got people emotional over the trinity, but that's people. The devil himself and his spirits? They took twi VERY seriously. There was SOMETHING in twis overall presentation that he did NOT want known. The mystery? SIT? ADAN? Not sure, but as long as twi was big enough to potentially get legitimacy and credibility, the attacks never stopped.
John,
VP seduced people away from the Jesus Movement, true, but it wasn't started because two guys sat through the first 4 sessions of PFAL. Maybe you didn't mean to imply that, but that is what it sounds like you are saying. VP pulled them away from an already vibrant movement.
I hate to burst your bubble, but Dale Carnegie was teaching session one of PFAL long before VP and Napoleon Hill before that. The mystery? There are seven mysteries in the NT and the bible teachers I know teach ALL of them. Administrations? Dispensationalism has been around a long time, since the 1800's. John Darby? There are 5, 7, or 12 taught depending on who you are listening to at the moment. We know where he got RTHST and the only one who went after that with a vengeance was VP when he took another mans work. VP didn't teach anything new.
People can be cruel and hateful.....to Christian and atheists alike.....but the idea that the devil was out to get us because we had special knowledge....is a mindset we need to really examine and be delivered from IMHO.
Christians are actually killed for their beliefs today....and that seems a bit more harsh than someone slamming a door in our face...no? I am not speaking about PFAL grads...but Christians who believe Jesus is God, who believe the dead are alive....who may not embrace dispensationalism, and who may believe all 7 mysteries are of great importance. This reality....puts your theory to the test. Is the devil angry over the knowledge they have? It is often in direct opposition to what VP taught.
VP certainly put his bizarre twist on things, but it was nothing new. When broken down....much of what he taught you was anti-Christian. Maybe it was VP doing the devils work for him? After all, the devil disguises himself as an angel of light. VP did manage to axe Christ from Christianity. No mean feat.
Much of what you regurgitate from PFAL stands in direct opposition to Christianity....which is why I think you often come up against the Christians on this forum.
It was a cult John, and it fell apart when the charismatic leader died. . . . . this happens to many cults unless there is someone as equally charismatic to step in.
Donnie was a good man. I met him the first year he took PFAL, going through Wichita. "Good kid" then, we were all youngsters. The "Jesus Freak" movement wasn't started post-PFAL, I know you know that so I"m not sure what you mean, maybe you could elaborate a bit. As to the beliefs, the J Freak "movement" as it's called wasn't close to or about the first 4 sessions worth of material of PFAL at all - again, you must know that regardless of what Donnie said or didn't. There's really no connection between the two, although many of the people of that era crossed paths, and long hair and flowers in their hair notwithstanding.
"Staying put" is a relative term. Jim and Steve's story isn't one that is as clear cut as people make it out to be today.
(Jim "came back" later but that was a mistake - one he accepted as a necessity at the time for a variety of reasons but it ended badly. We sat up late one night soon after he moved back there and got caught up and I was really glad to see him and hopeful for what his involvement could mean for both he and VPW but even then I wasn't sure it was the right thing - and I was fully engaged in the Way at the time, in the Way Corps. I remember the wif' and I thinking well - we'll have to see.)
Do you know anything about or have any idea of what Steve's doing today, what he believes, or how he's continued to pursue his own faith and life, with his wife over these many years? Or what their idea of ministry is, and what their contributions are? He's not hard to find if you really want to know.
As to the Way and what they did/didn't do - I really don't have an issue with the efforts the Way expended - it was a specific kind of effort for a specific kind of thing.
Publicly many people lipped about respecting the efforts of others but if you know the history of the Way Inc. from New Knoxville on you know that there was never an organized, led effort other than the research parts, teaching the bible and forming the fellowship network, with an assortment of services in and around that.
Stuff started and was done but nothing "stuck", no clear mandates were established to develop a track history of effort that could be identified now, years later. A few exceptions - Rock of Ages, the WOW program, Way Productions might be a few efforts that started that had a larger service goal to people but that changed over the years. And Craig didn't have the vision or leadership to accomplish much beyond doing what he already knew. All the fluff he came up with in the 90's - not much there really.
It speaks for itself.
Charging not an issue? Don't get me started. It's probably the one, deep topic that informs the entire organization from the get - go.
The Way was nothing more than another one of thousands of small time, cult-like organizations. PFAL was simply a pyramid scheme, based on the Word-Faith Movement. It's content was highly plagiarized and filled with academic inaccuracies.
Can we get back on topic now?
Exactly right! One of the first terms I ever used for TWI was "A Pyramid Scheme for Jesus". At my first Fellowships, everyone stood up like an AA meeting and recounted fervent story after story about how things were going badly for them until they "gave" to TWI and then their problems were miraculously solved. Usually this revolved around money. I remember one guy declaring that once upon a time he had a choice of either paying the mortgage or Tithing to TWI, and he gave his last dollar to TWI. A few weeks later a check came in the mail which allowed him to pay off his home. I kid you not!
Everything was all about how God would reward you if you dedicated your life (and money) to TWI. Not about helping others. Not about giving to others (TWI excepted). Certainly not doing what Jesus and the disciples actually did. This was one of the first fallacies I saw.
The "Original topic" I was hoping for was an examination of the selfishness which twi inbred into people. I believe selfishness was inbred and is part of the curse of the extwi cult mentality came about through the focus on "my benefits" vs the motivation of helping others, making the world a better place, making parents proud of us, etc.
The doctrines of "word over the world" became "twi over the world" and the kindness of Christ got lost in the efforts to bring people and primarily their benefits to twi, which nurtured selfishness.
In my opinion it is the compassion for others which is implemented by God's kindness (side Biblical note: "His" is in italics in Ephesians 2:7 because all kindness is "His")
In my opinion one of the "words of death to the spirit" which twi delivered was the ridicule and insulting of "being a chanel for the Lord" In my opinion, God's love and power and might is not from me at all, but is from Him by His kindness and grace, and it is in my opinion accurately portrayed by such analogies as the lamp being plugged into the electrical outlet. The power which lights the bulb is not our own. And also the bulb itself is a gift of His kind grace. Ridiculing and rejecting this "chanel" concept in my opinion is another "type" of the selfish philosophy. By ignoring the power source and strength, as well as the creation itself which is the gift of God, arrogance and selfishness is likewise further entrenched in a twi cult mentalty.
There is another movie by Sherwood Pictures, "Courageous" to build the concept of fatherhood and being a good dad here (GT exemplifies a good dad in his "pedophile" thread). Sherwood Pictures was started by some guys from this church in response to a challenge from their pulpit to figure out how and implement a plan to make an impact in the world, to give Jesus into the world so in need of Him. These Sherwood Picture guys not only have a great product of nobility and courage and true Christian living, but also the people who are part of the production become better people by their association with it.
There are people who have taken pfal and then done other things in the world, but I would say that their explicity avoidance of acknowledging any association with twi is an indication that they understand at some level the wickedness of that place. It's more like a filthy thing they (and we) touched and try to wash their (our) hands of than an impact of the Lord for which they (we) are truly thankfull. I know of one who came under twi when he was a weak Christian and that touch did nothing to help but only hurt his life and the impact he could have made in the world. I don't know of anyone who puts their twi years proudly on their resume, and for me it was with a sigh of relief when that physical association (WOW and corpse) dropped off the requried "5-year history" generally required in resumes. I was especially blessed because that time limit passed while I was on one job so I didn't need to include twi on any resume. There is also at least one thread around this place somewhere regarding suggested verbiage to obscure involvement in an obscure cult in the cornfields of Ohio. Really -- who can be proud of a year spent housecleaning, and time spent learning to build up your own ego and arrogance based upon how important you are because you have this vast knowledge of the Bible.)
Working for and with an organization of integrity such as Billy Graham's or Sherwood Baptist Church is a source of pride because these groups do make the world a nicer place by reaching forth God's hand into people's lives in need.
i do believe life should be more about what we can do for others and what we can give vs. what's in it for me
even though the way's green card (benefits)and a lot of jerks were about themselves and what was in it for them, i don't believe i myself became selfish like that and nor do i believe that about most people i knew
Precious Ex. my point is that people such as yourself with tender hearts for the Lord who had a ministry before the Lord could have done so much more if you/they/we were under a ministry that was functioning in a godly manner. Those that became selfish used others rather than helping them.
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geisha779
I am sorry if you think you are being bullied, I don't think that is any one person's intention. I can see where you might think it is a pile on though. . . .
......................................................
I edited the rest.
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waysider
That's a total strawman, John. No one said anything at all about taking your family out to a movie. Don't you ever get tired of the same old diversional song and dance?
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socks
Kit, I call it "the impulse to do good" and the spirit of God "working and willing" in a person. The will, the impulse, the responsiveness to extend oneself to another. I like your examples.
In The Way there's always been a "yeah, so what?" attitude towards "good works".
"Won't get you saved!" goes the line.
They need to grow up and stop thinking of themselves and what they get out of others "believing". Salvation and "works" - I get that. That's kind of Christianity 101 IMO. "Not by works, by faith" in Jesus Christ".
Doesn't mean the natural impulse of those saved shouldn't be - wouldn't be - to then do "good work". In fact, the Bible speaks to that quite a bit. In further fact the case is made that it's expected that once saved, living by God's grace and fully vested in the Kingdom of God that one has the wherewithal with which to do some real good towards others so we be good to everyone, and yeah, especially swell to others of the Faith.
I see it as God wants to do good stuff for everyone and He will. Whether we want to sit on our butts and watch from the sidelines and judge whether the plays are by the rule book or not is up to us.
Christians get in the game, get dirty and crack open a cold one at the end of the day. Let someone else keep score.
It's too much of a pain in the as s to sort out who gets what. Err on the side of expansive opportunity ("for God so loved the world that He gave") and there's bound to be some good to come out of it.
To note: Given how the Way's growth has all but ground to a halt and they can't seem to keep people around to save their life one could probably model a growth plan from their example by simply not doing what they do and doing anything else. So if they say "don't give to a good cause" you could start investing in Red Cross tomorrow and be better off. I mean honestly, they could probably get more people to "take the class" by getting dolphins to juggle doughnuts in the desert during a hail storm than anything they're doing.
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waysider
Just felt like that needed to be repeated.
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johniam
quote:
In The Way there's always been a "yeah, so what?" attitude towards "good works".
Makes me think of 2 things...
1) I once heard Donnie Fugit say that the Jesus freak movement was started by 2 guys who sat through the first 4 sessions of pfal and didn't finish the class. This was supposed to be a bad thing; that they should have stayed put in twi. I just looked up their wikipedia article and, it appears, they had a lot of impact in their time. Especially getting Christians from different groups to spend time together for week long festivals, and that Billy Graham himself was OK with this to an extent. I don't see that as a bad thing.
2) Here in STL there was a 'Church of the abundant life' visible from one of the highways in the 70s/80s. I was told it was started by a lady who was a pfal grad. I don't see that as a bad thing, either.
Here we have 2 examples of people who were exposed to pfal, then went in their own direction and did their own good works. Ralph D once said he thanked God for people like Billy Graham and Oral Roberts. Even LCM once said he didn't really mind people giving to causes like the Salvation Army as long as it wasn't done out of guilt. Eph. says we were saved unto good works. I don't think twi leaders were all oblivious to that. TWIs structure, in and of itself, was not a bad thing. Many good works for God were done in twi. So they charged money for a class. Big deal.
I just can't forget how blatantly viscious the response was at times going out witnessing. It was bizarre. Nobody hates like that without the devil's direct help. The devil is subtle. He got people emotional over the trinity, but that's people. The devil himself and his spirits? They took twi VERY seriously. There was SOMETHING in twis overall presentation that he did NOT want known. The mystery? SIT? ADAN? Not sure, but as long as twi was big enough to potentially get legitimacy and credibility, the attacks never stopped.
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waysider
The Way was nothing more than another one of thousands of small time, cult-like organizations. PFAL was simply a pyramid scheme, based on the Word-Faith Movement. It's content was highly plagiarized and filled with academic inaccuracies.
Can we get back on topic now?
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johniam
Nobody seems to know what the topic IS. On the thread itself it says 'culture of selfishness', then it's about Christ's compassion. Instead of whining, why don't YOU get us "back on topic". You're like that little gold fish in 'the Cat in the Hat'. You think you're the voice of everybody's conscience. You think you're going to sweet talk the devil into changng his ways and turning his life around. Good luck with that.
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geisha779
John,
VP seduced people away from the Jesus Movement, true, but it wasn't started because two guys sat through the first 4 sessions of PFAL. Maybe you didn't mean to imply that, but that is what it sounds like you are saying. VP pulled them away from an already vibrant movement.
I hate to burst your bubble, but Dale Carnegie was teaching session one of PFAL long before VP and Napoleon Hill before that. The mystery? There are seven mysteries in the NT and the bible teachers I know teach ALL of them. Administrations? Dispensationalism has been around a long time, since the 1800's. John Darby? There are 5, 7, or 12 taught depending on who you are listening to at the moment. We know where he got RTHST and the only one who went after that with a vengeance was VP when he took another mans work. VP didn't teach anything new.
People can be cruel and hateful.....to Christian and atheists alike.....but the idea that the devil was out to get us because we had special knowledge....is a mindset we need to really examine and be delivered from IMHO.
Christians are actually killed for their beliefs today....and that seems a bit more harsh than someone slamming a door in our face...no? I am not speaking about PFAL grads...but Christians who believe Jesus is God, who believe the dead are alive....who may not embrace dispensationalism, and who may believe all 7 mysteries are of great importance. This reality....puts your theory to the test. Is the devil angry over the knowledge they have? It is often in direct opposition to what VP taught.
VP certainly put his bizarre twist on things, but it was nothing new. When broken down....much of what he taught you was anti-Christian. Maybe it was VP doing the devils work for him? After all, the devil disguises himself as an angel of light. VP did manage to axe Christ from Christianity. No mean feat.
Much of what you regurgitate from PFAL stands in direct opposition to Christianity....which is why I think you often come up against the Christians on this forum.
It was a cult John, and it fell apart when the charismatic leader died. . . . . this happens to many cults unless there is someone as equally charismatic to step in.
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socks
Hmmm, yeah j iam.
Donnie was a good man. I met him the first year he took PFAL, going through Wichita. "Good kid" then, we were all youngsters. The "Jesus Freak" movement wasn't started post-PFAL, I know you know that so I"m not sure what you mean, maybe you could elaborate a bit. As to the beliefs, the J Freak "movement" as it's called wasn't close to or about the first 4 sessions worth of material of PFAL at all - again, you must know that regardless of what Donnie said or didn't. There's really no connection between the two, although many of the people of that era crossed paths, and long hair and flowers in their hair notwithstanding.
"Staying put" is a relative term. Jim and Steve's story isn't one that is as clear cut as people make it out to be today.
(Jim "came back" later but that was a mistake - one he accepted as a necessity at the time for a variety of reasons but it ended badly. We sat up late one night soon after he moved back there and got caught up and I was really glad to see him and hopeful for what his involvement could mean for both he and VPW but even then I wasn't sure it was the right thing - and I was fully engaged in the Way at the time, in the Way Corps. I remember the wif' and I thinking well - we'll have to see.)
Do you know anything about or have any idea of what Steve's doing today, what he believes, or how he's continued to pursue his own faith and life, with his wife over these many years? Or what their idea of ministry is, and what their contributions are? He's not hard to find if you really want to know.
As to the Way and what they did/didn't do - I really don't have an issue with the efforts the Way expended - it was a specific kind of effort for a specific kind of thing.
Publicly many people lipped about respecting the efforts of others but if you know the history of the Way Inc. from New Knoxville on you know that there was never an organized, led effort other than the research parts, teaching the bible and forming the fellowship network, with an assortment of services in and around that.
Stuff started and was done but nothing "stuck", no clear mandates were established to develop a track history of effort that could be identified now, years later. A few exceptions - Rock of Ages, the WOW program, Way Productions might be a few efforts that started that had a larger service goal to people but that changed over the years. And Craig didn't have the vision or leadership to accomplish much beyond doing what he already knew. All the fluff he came up with in the 90's - not much there really.
It speaks for itself.
Charging not an issue? Don't get me started. It's probably the one, deep topic that informs the entire organization from the get - go.
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DocHoliday
Exactly right! One of the first terms I ever used for TWI was "A Pyramid Scheme for Jesus". At my first Fellowships, everyone stood up like an AA meeting and recounted fervent story after story about how things were going badly for them until they "gave" to TWI and then their problems were miraculously solved. Usually this revolved around money. I remember one guy declaring that once upon a time he had a choice of either paying the mortgage or Tithing to TWI, and he gave his last dollar to TWI. A few weeks later a check came in the mail which allowed him to pay off his home. I kid you not!
Everything was all about how God would reward you if you dedicated your life (and money) to TWI. Not about helping others. Not about giving to others (TWI excepted). Certainly not doing what Jesus and the disciples actually did. This was one of the first fallacies I saw.
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excathedra
A few weeks later a check came in the mail which allowed him to pay off his home
damn i more than tithed i abundantly shared and was poor as sht
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cman
if AA is considered to be like TWI, it is a misconception
yes there are some who will swear that AA is the only answer to the problem at hand
as TWI people have claimed to be "THE WAY" the only way
the difference is, in my experience, AA will give and not take
while some may be 'hooked' on AA, it's easy to walk away
and you are always welcome, drunk or sober
yes the basket is passed, $1 is the normal donation
and it is not required or preached about
even some that have been with AA a long time
will think it's the only way out of alcohol abuse
while other's know the origins of the principals involved and how freely they have given
and can point out the history beyond the AA book
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Kit Sober
The "Original topic" I was hoping for was an examination of the selfishness which twi inbred into people. I believe selfishness was inbred and is part of the curse of the extwi cult mentality came about through the focus on "my benefits" vs the motivation of helping others, making the world a better place, making parents proud of us, etc.
The doctrines of "word over the world" became "twi over the world" and the kindness of Christ got lost in the efforts to bring people and primarily their benefits to twi, which nurtured selfishness.
In my opinion it is the compassion for others which is implemented by God's kindness (side Biblical note: "His" is in italics in Ephesians 2:7 because all kindness is "His")
In my opinion one of the "words of death to the spirit" which twi delivered was the ridicule and insulting of "being a chanel for the Lord" In my opinion, God's love and power and might is not from me at all, but is from Him by His kindness and grace, and it is in my opinion accurately portrayed by such analogies as the lamp being plugged into the electrical outlet. The power which lights the bulb is not our own. And also the bulb itself is a gift of His kind grace. Ridiculing and rejecting this "chanel" concept in my opinion is another "type" of the selfish philosophy. By ignoring the power source and strength, as well as the creation itself which is the gift of God, arrogance and selfishness is likewise further entrenched in a twi cult mentalty.
There is another movie by Sherwood Pictures, "Courageous" to build the concept of fatherhood and being a good dad here (GT exemplifies a good dad in his "pedophile" thread). Sherwood Pictures was started by some guys from this church in response to a challenge from their pulpit to figure out how and implement a plan to make an impact in the world, to give Jesus into the world so in need of Him. These Sherwood Picture guys not only have a great product of nobility and courage and true Christian living, but also the people who are part of the production become better people by their association with it.
There are people who have taken pfal and then done other things in the world, but I would say that their explicity avoidance of acknowledging any association with twi is an indication that they understand at some level the wickedness of that place. It's more like a filthy thing they (and we) touched and try to wash their (our) hands of than an impact of the Lord for which they (we) are truly thankfull. I know of one who came under twi when he was a weak Christian and that touch did nothing to help but only hurt his life and the impact he could have made in the world. I don't know of anyone who puts their twi years proudly on their resume, and for me it was with a sigh of relief when that physical association (WOW and corpse) dropped off the requried "5-year history" generally required in resumes. I was especially blessed because that time limit passed while I was on one job so I didn't need to include twi on any resume. There is also at least one thread around this place somewhere regarding suggested verbiage to obscure involvement in an obscure cult in the cornfields of Ohio. Really -- who can be proud of a year spent housecleaning, and time spent learning to build up your own ego and arrogance based upon how important you are because you have this vast knowledge of the Bible.)
Working for and with an organization of integrity such as Billy Graham's or Sherwood Baptist Church is a source of pride because these groups do make the world a nicer place by reaching forth God's hand into people's lives in need.
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excathedra
i do believe life should be more about what we can do for others and what we can give vs. what's in it for me
even though the way's green card (benefits)and a lot of jerks were about themselves and what was in it for them, i don't believe i myself became selfish like that and nor do i believe that about most people i knew
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Kit Sober
Precious Ex. my point is that people such as yourself with tender hearts for the Lord who had a ministry before the Lord could have done so much more if you/they/we were under a ministry that was functioning in a godly manner. Those that became selfish used others rather than helping them.
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