And, yet, Wierwille claimed that, when he was at the end of his rope,debating an exit from ministerial work, he asked God for a sign and.....voila!, the sky turned black with snow.
So, which is it? You can ask for a sign or you can't ask for a sign?.....silly little details often seem to spoil a good fib.
The line goes that since the rightly divided Word had been so buried for so long that God had to give special revelation just for Wierwille. It would never happen to us peons. BTW, how does a sky go "black with (white) snow?
They could try teaching about the generosity and lovingness of God.
They could try reading and teaching from the gospels, about the exemplary life of Jesus.
They could try teaching humility, respect, generosity, not esteeming others greater than oneself, making themselves servants (ie really serving) others.
They could try teaching "love" as being tender, and being like a nursing mother with their flock - instead of practicing "tough love" and bullying their flock.
They could try teaching hospitality, and opening their doors to all, including the homeless and filthy off the street (think: what might be in Plurality Palace), those with addiction problems; those who need a break from the hardness of their lives.
How could they teach generosity and all the other Christian things you've rightly listed when all the money they collect just stays inside and in the hands of a few?
Exactly, allswell. Would be a steep learning curve for them. Have to teach themselves first.
It's funny, really, because as individuals, I find Americans very generous, giving, and openhanded, and particularly within TWI, I found individual believers to be ready to give.
As an International coming from a country with lower per capita income [not the UK], my WC tuition fees and little extras came in large part from US believers.
Within my home country, the believers were very giving and sharing with each other and also with the WC they supported.
And yet the parent organization is so tightfisted and hoards all the ABS, which individuals willingly (or maybe unwillingly) give, thinking that it will be shared out to those in need...but there's a big logjam in Ohio.
But it's not all about the money.
That's only a symptom of the hardheartedness and lack of genuine love and compassion - that again was often evident among individuals, but not the organization as a whole.
I see it as we do the work in the domain we're responsible for, God does His. His will will always reign, whether I like it or not so it's better to get used to it and the sooner I do, the better for me....
... A person might say "I looked at the tornado and rebuked it in the name of Jesus Christ and it went the opposite direction and did no damage".....I get that but what's happening there is much What God does, shows, reveals, gives, takes, moves, puts in our paths and brings to us and those around us - that's Him. Promises of the Word? Sure. Claim them? Go for it. Declare we produced the results because of our believing? That well's going to go dry real quick. Look at the Way - dust bowl.
Within that is what I call the "spiritually serendipitous" life lived. Good is all around us all the time, like a river of goodness.
Good swimmer or bad, it's always good to get wet....
"Spiritually serendipitous" - brilliant. Thank you very much for the great reply, socks. I suppose I was inventing a problem with words, saying that I think "limiting God" sounds like we're stronger than him and we should describe it some other way, when the reality of the phrase is understood perfectly well. Oh no, I was being like them, telling people to scratch out "if" and write in "since"!
Thanks cara. For what it's worth (and the cost is about right...)
I picked up a book by a Scottish Missionary George Mackie, years ago, ran across it in a Borders I think. He was a Christian missionary in the middle east for many years and I think the period was around 1900 or so. "Bible Manners and Customs" is the book. In it he notes one of the differences in eastern and western religious thought and he gently suggests that both would benefit from the other - he observes that Western Christianity views God as good and that God does good things....think he puts it that way. He feels Eastern thought sees God more as -they see good and say God has done it and credit God for all good.
Those are very broad statements of course and don't or won't fit east, west or wherever consistently (we could debate what "good" is until it went bad) but in a general way I think it describes a very fundamental aspect of how today's Christian thought has developed in the U.S. and the Way's teaching exemplifies it in the extreme - that nothing is good at all unless it fits within a very tight framework of man's expectation, an expectation built on a very strict interpretation of their current understanding of the Bible. That the only good things that can be - "really" good and true and right - are those that are validated by the individual's understanding of the Bible. I doubt they'd describe it that way exactly but that's really what it is - in the Way if something "happens" they don't understand they will generally assume it's suspect. Not "the best", somehow substandard and not worthy of their blessing as coming from "the true God.
I had my own "Peter Moment" years ago in a situation where something truly incredible had occurred with me, that also involved my family. I didn't reject what had happened - I couldn't, it was a series of events that had in fact occurred exactly as they had. Yet I couldn't comprehend them and how wonderful the entire deal was. "Why and how" were questions I couldn't answer. Long story short the clarity came in the phrase "Good is where you find it". An almost overwhelming awareness that God wanted understood - that He is God and that His realm of life and activity is in no way limited to what I think it is or should be. In no way negating His Word, but to remember that in the billions of lives and moments that populate this universe at any given second, I am only one and that God is truly everywhere.
For me it's a kind of prayer life, to ponder and consider the greatness of God, the magnitude of creation, all of this, any of this, play with sizing and scaling Him and then giving way to the impossibility of such a task and be kind of "filled to overflowing" with that life in me. It puts me into a completely different place setting myself to other tasks and work. People do similar things all the time I suppose, just the thought of the first double Latte' the day gets some of us going. .
I'm not a "universalist", I don't see that everything is right or can be right or has to have some right-nes in it, just because or so we can all get along better. But for me, I've long since come to believe that while I am unique in God's eyes and loved, we all are. I can never orchestrate what God has set in motion, but I'm grateful to participate.
quote: And, yet, Wierwille claimed that, when he was at the end of his rope,debating an exit from ministerial work, he asked God for a sign and.....voila!, the sky turned black with snow.
So, which is it? You can ask for a sign or you can't ask for a sign?.....silly little details often seem to spoil a good fib.
You can ask God for anything and God can do pretty much anything. He can do exceeding, abundantly above all that we ask or think, remember? You merely can't ask God for things with the attitude that God HAS to comply. Don't you have ANY confidence toward God anymore?
quote: And, yet, Wierwille claimed that, when he was at the end of his rope,debating an exit from ministerial work, he asked God for a sign and.....voila!, the sky turned black with snow.
So, which is it? You can ask for a sign or you can't ask for a sign?.....silly little details often seem to spoil a good fib.
You can ask God for anything and God can do pretty much anything. He can do exceeding, abundantly above all that we ask or think, remember? You merely can't ask God for things with the attitude that God HAS to comply. Don't you have ANY confidence toward God anymore?
It has absolutely nothing at all to do with my personal beliefs..
I believe you may have missed the point.
Point being:
This incident contradicts what Wierwille taught in both the foundational and the advanced class.
That, in itself, brings Wierwille's credibility into serious question. Without credibility, of what value is anything he taught? Remember, this is a guy who taught us that cancer is a devil spirit, yet, he, himself succumbed to the disease. Credibility is the key issue. Without it, you are simply taking his word that he was being truthful.
You can ask God for anything and God can do pretty much anything. He can do exceeding, abundantly above all that we ask or think, remember? You merely can't ask God for things with the attitude that God HAS to comply. Don't you have ANY confidence toward God anymore?
Remember Jesus confronted the Pharisees saying that Israel was a generation "seeking after signs" when he was the sign.
Not staying humble and playing "diva" with God just causes you to go blind.
Credibility is the key issue. Without it, you are simply taking his word that he was being truthful.
Yeah - it's all such a catch-22. People criticize GS for bringing up details attacking VPW's person, character, etc. They rationalize all that and say "just focus on the Word he taught". People are human and make mistakes - there's the frailty of the human behavior.
Jesus taught us to know people by their fruit. He also said "beware of the leaven of the Pharisees", and "a little leaven leavens the whole lump".
I guess if all this was easy, then wolves couldn't disguise themselves as sheep.
They rationalize all that and say "just focus on the Word he taught". People are human and make mistakes - there's the frailty of the human behavior.
We do, indeed. Some of the old (maybe current) Wayfer conviction is to lump it all together under a single concept - that since all people sin, are "in" sin and become saved by Christ, all sin is the same, no levels of severity apply and nothing anyone does before during or after is of any extraordinary consequence. All sin, all are forgiven, all are saved, all is good.
Therein is a disconnect in the doctrine he taught, that also existed when and while he taught it.
All people sin and fall short - and we know that, it's an accepted part of basic Christian doctrine.
All people are saved by God's grace and His mercy - and again, we know that, etc.
There are no levels to sin, sin is sin, no one worse or better than the other.
Whoa whoa whoa, back up a minute there baby.
The basic argument popularized in the Way supports the view of salvation...and I do believe the Bible presents that case - all sin, all are saved, in Christ.
Levels of "sin" were actually taught in the Way though and by VPW himself, but balanced on a leaning fence -
"Homosexuality" was described by VPW as "the lowest man can go", the lowest of the low. Trinitarian Jesus-is-God doctrine was taught as idolatry, spiritual heresy and unacceptable to God. Hearing the "accuracy" of the Word and then not standing on it or even turning "against" it and those who believe it - 10 steps down below bottom on the spiritual ladder. You could do a lot of things in the Way and chalk it up to learning but break rank on any number of essential points and you'd be out, you, your family and anything that belonged to you or that you'd touched.
Those are levels - in a flat-earth-sin world, neither is any worse than any other wrong, bad, sinful thing. As he taught it, they're no worse nor any better than anything else, good or bad. Same wok, same stir fry.
He did not in fact live that way or run the ministry that way though. He was moralistic and judgmental in practice.
He also taught that "rewards" were earned by behavior, "believing action". Do the Big Stuff and the Little Stuff won't get you dinged at the Bema, more or less. That's degrees of right and wrong, plain and simple. Burn the chaffe and keep what's left - the good stuff. Okay - but that being the case it means a person can do anything they want, good or bad, and it doesn't matter in the long run. If that's the way he wanted to look at it we could have saved a lot of time and effort on "Uncle Harry" days. Why bother?
At any rate VPW taught one thing but in practice did another. Yeah, we all do that kind of thing at times. Never works out good. You can do what you want sure, it's your life, but tacking God's name on it is....touchy. That's a level, a degree of activity that warrents more respect than it got. How those things effect others may be the acid test upon which to start understanding hmmm, degrees....
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socks
Hmmm....actually yes, the quote is from the "Advanced Class" part of the series, and as you probably remember VPW stated "everything" was in the PFAL Foundational class itself, the Intermediate and Ad
Broken Arrow
The line goes that since the rightly divided Word had been so buried for so long that God had to give special revelation just for Wierwille. It would never happen to us peons. BTW, how does a sky go "black with (white) snow?
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allswellhere99
How could they teach generosity and all the other Christian things you've rightly listed when all the money they collect just stays inside and in the hands of a few?
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Twinky
Exactly, allswell. Would be a steep learning curve for them. Have to teach themselves first.
It's funny, really, because as individuals, I find Americans very generous, giving, and openhanded, and particularly within TWI, I found individual believers to be ready to give.
As an International coming from a country with lower per capita income [not the UK], my WC tuition fees and little extras came in large part from US believers.
Within my home country, the believers were very giving and sharing with each other and also with the WC they supported.
And yet the parent organization is so tightfisted and hoards all the ABS, which individuals willingly (or maybe unwillingly) give, thinking that it will be shared out to those in need...but there's a big logjam in Ohio.
But it's not all about the money.
That's only a symptom of the hardheartedness and lack of genuine love and compassion - that again was often evident among individuals, but not the organization as a whole.
"Do as TWI says - not as TWI does ..." Huh...
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cara
"Spiritually serendipitous" - brilliant. Thank you very much for the great reply, socks. I suppose I was inventing a problem with words, saying that I think "limiting God" sounds like we're stronger than him and we should describe it some other way, when the reality of the phrase is understood perfectly well. Oh no, I was being like them, telling people to scratch out "if" and write in "since"!
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socks
Thanks cara. For what it's worth (and the cost is about right...)
I picked up a book by a Scottish Missionary George Mackie, years ago, ran across it in a Borders I think. He was a Christian missionary in the middle east for many years and I think the period was around 1900 or so. "Bible Manners and Customs" is the book. In it he notes one of the differences in eastern and western religious thought and he gently suggests that both would benefit from the other - he observes that Western Christianity views God as good and that God does good things....think he puts it that way. He feels Eastern thought sees God more as -they see good and say God has done it and credit God for all good.
Those are very broad statements of course and don't or won't fit east, west or wherever consistently (we could debate what "good" is until it went bad) but in a general way I think it describes a very fundamental aspect of how today's Christian thought has developed in the U.S. and the Way's teaching exemplifies it in the extreme - that nothing is good at all unless it fits within a very tight framework of man's expectation, an expectation built on a very strict interpretation of their current understanding of the Bible. That the only good things that can be - "really" good and true and right - are those that are validated by the individual's understanding of the Bible. I doubt they'd describe it that way exactly but that's really what it is - in the Way if something "happens" they don't understand they will generally assume it's suspect. Not "the best", somehow substandard and not worthy of their blessing as coming from "the true God.
I had my own "Peter Moment" years ago in a situation where something truly incredible had occurred with me, that also involved my family. I didn't reject what had happened - I couldn't, it was a series of events that had in fact occurred exactly as they had. Yet I couldn't comprehend them and how wonderful the entire deal was. "Why and how" were questions I couldn't answer. Long story short the clarity came in the phrase "Good is where you find it". An almost overwhelming awareness that God wanted understood - that He is God and that His realm of life and activity is in no way limited to what I think it is or should be. In no way negating His Word, but to remember that in the billions of lives and moments that populate this universe at any given second, I am only one and that God is truly everywhere.
For me it's a kind of prayer life, to ponder and consider the greatness of God, the magnitude of creation, all of this, any of this, play with sizing and scaling Him and then giving way to the impossibility of such a task and be kind of "filled to overflowing" with that life in me. It puts me into a completely different place setting myself to other tasks and work. People do similar things all the time I suppose, just the thought of the first double Latte' the day gets some of us going. .
I'm not a "universalist", I don't see that everything is right or can be right or has to have some right-nes in it, just because or so we can all get along better. But for me, I've long since come to believe that while I am unique in God's eyes and loved, we all are. I can never orchestrate what God has set in motion, but I'm grateful to participate.
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johniam
quote: And, yet, Wierwille claimed that, when he was at the end of his rope,debating an exit from ministerial work, he asked God for a sign and.....voila!, the sky turned black with snow.
So, which is it? You can ask for a sign or you can't ask for a sign?.....silly little details often seem to spoil a good fib.
You can ask God for anything and God can do pretty much anything. He can do exceeding, abundantly above all that we ask or think, remember? You merely can't ask God for things with the attitude that God HAS to comply. Don't you have ANY confidence toward God anymore?
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waysider
It has absolutely nothing at all to do with my personal beliefs..
I believe you may have missed the point.
Point being:
This incident contradicts what Wierwille taught in both the foundational and the advanced class.
That, in itself, brings Wierwille's credibility into serious question. Without credibility, of what value is anything he taught? Remember, this is a guy who taught us that cancer is a devil spirit, yet, he, himself succumbed to the disease. Credibility is the key issue. Without it, you are simply taking his word that he was being truthful.
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chockfull
Remember Jesus confronted the Pharisees saying that Israel was a generation "seeking after signs" when he was the sign.
Not staying humble and playing "diva" with God just causes you to go blind.
Yeah - it's all such a catch-22. People criticize GS for bringing up details attacking VPW's person, character, etc. They rationalize all that and say "just focus on the Word he taught". People are human and make mistakes - there's the frailty of the human behavior.
Jesus taught us to know people by their fruit. He also said "beware of the leaven of the Pharisees", and "a little leaven leavens the whole lump".
I guess if all this was easy, then wolves couldn't disguise themselves as sheep.
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geisha779
The whole PFAL class was building towards a "sign". Tongues.
Despite what he said....VP was all about signs and proof.....at least that is my opinion.
Heaven bound and all that.....proof in the senses realm....
Personally, I think it gave us a false assurance and made examining ourselves to see if we were in the faith kind of moot.
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Broken Arrow
Nicely stated Chockfull!
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socks
They rationalize all that and say "just focus on the Word he taught". People are human and make mistakes - there's the frailty of the human behavior.
We do, indeed. Some of the old (maybe current) Wayfer conviction is to lump it all together under a single concept - that since all people sin, are "in" sin and become saved by Christ, all sin is the same, no levels of severity apply and nothing anyone does before during or after is of any extraordinary consequence. All sin, all are forgiven, all are saved, all is good.
Therein is a disconnect in the doctrine he taught, that also existed when and while he taught it.
All people sin and fall short - and we know that, it's an accepted part of basic Christian doctrine.
All people are saved by God's grace and His mercy - and again, we know that, etc.
There are no levels to sin, sin is sin, no one worse or better than the other.
Whoa whoa whoa, back up a minute there baby.
The basic argument popularized in the Way supports the view of salvation...and I do believe the Bible presents that case - all sin, all are saved, in Christ.
Levels of "sin" were actually taught in the Way though and by VPW himself, but balanced on a leaning fence -
"Homosexuality" was described by VPW as "the lowest man can go", the lowest of the low. Trinitarian Jesus-is-God doctrine was taught as idolatry, spiritual heresy and unacceptable to God. Hearing the "accuracy" of the Word and then not standing on it or even turning "against" it and those who believe it - 10 steps down below bottom on the spiritual ladder. You could do a lot of things in the Way and chalk it up to learning but break rank on any number of essential points and you'd be out, you, your family and anything that belonged to you or that you'd touched.
Those are levels - in a flat-earth-sin world, neither is any worse than any other wrong, bad, sinful thing. As he taught it, they're no worse nor any better than anything else, good or bad. Same wok, same stir fry.
He did not in fact live that way or run the ministry that way though. He was moralistic and judgmental in practice.
He also taught that "rewards" were earned by behavior, "believing action". Do the Big Stuff and the Little Stuff won't get you dinged at the Bema, more or less. That's degrees of right and wrong, plain and simple. Burn the chaffe and keep what's left - the good stuff. Okay - but that being the case it means a person can do anything they want, good or bad, and it doesn't matter in the long run. If that's the way he wanted to look at it we could have saved a lot of time and effort on "Uncle Harry" days. Why bother?
At any rate VPW taught one thing but in practice did another. Yeah, we all do that kind of thing at times. Never works out good. You can do what you want sure, it's your life, but tacking God's name on it is....touchy. That's a level, a degree of activity that warrents more respect than it got. How those things effect others may be the acid test upon which to start understanding hmmm, degrees....
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