I have been reflecting on the cultish aspects of the way recently, and it occurs to me that sleep deprivation really *was* an issue there wasn't it? After the in-residence Corps, I don't recall anyone dictating how long I worked or how little I slept, but I think there was a macho "sleep is for sissies" kind of attitude that was prevalent. "I'll sleep when I'm dead." That sort of thing.
Fast forward to present, and many years post-twi I'm dealing with sleep issues,and trying to improve my sleep. I'm blown away by how differently I function on a good night's sleep. It makes sense to me now the value of keeping a group of people chronically tired if you want to influence them more easily.
Yes, it was critical to the functioning of FellowLaborers. We had to be in bed, lights out, no talking, at midnight. Then,we had to be back up at 5:00 AM for morning fellowship, our morning run and group breakfasts..... day after day, week after week, month after month and year after year. After a while, you get so worn down you stop trying to fight it and just go into survival mode. We were even subjected to a teaching once on how we could probably go on no sleep at all if we would just learn to believe bigger and speak in tongue much more. Forty years later and I still can't sleep more than 5 hours in a single stretch. I feel kind of silly even admitting I bought into this nonsense at one time.
Yes, it was critical to the functioning of FellowLaborers. We had to be in bed, lights out, no talking, at midnight. Then,we had to be back up at 5:00 AM for morning fellowship, our morning run and group breakfasts..... day after day, week after week, month after month and year after year. After a while, you get so worn down you stop trying to fight it and just go into survival mode. We were even subjected to a teaching once on how we could probably go on no sleep at all if we would just learn to believe bigger and speak in tongue much more. Forty years later and I still can't sleep more than 5 hours in a single stretch. I feel kind of silly even admitting I bought into this nonsense at one time.
I agree with the thesis of the OP in this thread. Sleep deprivation is an obvious tool for psychological manipulation.
However, I'm not so sure us "old folks" can rightfully blame current inability to sleep more than 5 hours at a stretch on twi.
The 5 hour sleep pattern isn't a new thing for me, Rocky. It's been that way ever since FellowLaborers. (I had previously been a real bear to wake with less than 8 hours.) And, I'm not necessarily blaming that on the program. Maybe it was a natural shift. I know, however, it's not simply a matter of the aging process as I've experienced this since leaving the program in my late 20's. The good news is that if I stay awake for about 2 hours I can easily get back to sleep for another 2 hour stretch. Those 2 hours are sweet! The point is,looking back, I can see how "running on empty" made it much easier to manipulate our thinking and behavior.
For (most) working people, it's self-induced. For people in the Way training programs, it was mandated and enforced.
Yes, in Way Disciple I was told I would .... when I was told to ...., among other things.
I'm pointing out that TWI followers are not ignorant of these practices or of these arguments.
(and to say working people are sleep deprived, AND that's self-inflicted . . . I think that ignores quite a bit how the world (the real world) works. That's another topic.)
It was always a "joke" esp in rez and for the Corps - plenty of work now, and we'll sleep after the Return. They used to say, everyone else will be partying, and there will be a quiet room off on one side whence emanates the gentle sound of the Way Corps snoring as they finally sleep.
I believe other cultish groups say similar...
For me, sleep wasn't an issue. I've always functioned perfectly well on 5 hrs, though I'm not and never have been a "morning person." More sleep makes me feel hung over. Actually in rez I was one that they tried to MAKE go to bed, LOL!!
It was always a "joke" esp in rez and for the Corps - plenty of work now, and we'll sleep after the Return. They used to say, everyone else will be partying, and there will be a quiet room off on one side whence emanates the gentle sound of the Way Corps snoring as they finally sleep.
I believe other cultish groups say similar...
Yeah, and the radical Islamic jihadi suicide bomber gets 70 virgins after doing the deed. It's all psychological manipulation. TWIts read about "the hope" and knew they had a mechanism to manipulate.
Just a reminder this study likely did not included factors such as SIT, Believing, and God's Hand of Protection.
I hope no one teaches the terrorists about speaking in tongues. Then we're screwed.
Also interesting article. My thought is that this kind of sleep deprivation torture seemed dismissible, but the more subtle "sleep is for suckas" could yield similar results over time.
Yes, it was critical to the functioning of FellowLaborers. We had to be in bed, lights out, no talking, at midnight. Then,we had to be back up at 5:00 AM for morning fellowship, our morning run and group breakfasts...
Were you allowed to go to bed BEFORE midnight? It seems to ne that going to bed at 10:30 or 11:00 still met the requirements and would have allowed a bit more sleep.
Were you allowed to go to bed BEFORE midnight? It seems to ne that going to bed at 10:30 or 11:00 still met the requirements and would have allowed a bit more sleep.
George
No, we worked at the limb HQ until about 9:30, drove back to the complex, which was about 30 minutes away, and then had night fellowships from 10:00 to 10:30. The remaining time was used to wash dinner dishes, prep the next day's breakfast, have house meetings and so on. It was a struggle at times to get everything done by midnight.
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waysider
Yes, it was critical to the functioning of FellowLaborers. We had to be in bed, lights out, no talking, at midnight. Then,we had to be back up at 5:00 AM for morning fellowship, our morning run and group breakfasts..... day after day, week after week, month after month and year after year. After a while, you get so worn down you stop trying to fight it and just go into survival mode. We were even subjected to a teaching once on how we could probably go on no sleep at all if we would just learn to believe bigger and speak in tongue much more. Forty years later and I still can't sleep more than 5 hours in a single stretch. I feel kind of silly even admitting I bought into this nonsense at one time.
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waysider
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Rocky
I agree with the thesis of the OP in this thread. Sleep deprivation is an obvious tool for psychological manipulation.
However, I'm not so sure us "old folks" can rightfully blame current inability to sleep more than 5 hours at a stretch on twi.
I have similar sleep issues and understand them primarily to be related to aging.
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waysider
The 5 hour sleep pattern isn't a new thing for me, Rocky. It's been that way ever since FellowLaborers. (I had previously been a real bear to wake with less than 8 hours.) And, I'm not necessarily blaming that on the program. Maybe it was a natural shift. I know, however, it's not simply a matter of the aging process as I've experienced this since leaving the program in my late 20's. The good news is that if I stay awake for about 2 hours I can easily get back to sleep for another 2 hour stretch. Those 2 hours are sweet! The point is,looking back, I can see how "running on empty" made it much easier to manipulate our thinking and behavior.
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Rocky
Most definitely.
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Bolshevik
In twig fellowships, this argument was typically dismissed because it is not unique to cults. Most working people are sleep deprived.
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Bolshevik
(A number of times I was made to stand for entire fellowships. Maybe I was sleep deprived. Maybe that crap was boring. Maybe both.)
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waysider
For (most) working people, it's self-induced. For people in the Way training programs, it was mandated and enforced.
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Bolshevik
Yes, in Way Disciple I was told I would .... when I was told to ...., among other things.
I'm pointing out that TWI followers are not ignorant of these practices or of these arguments.
(and to say working people are sleep deprived, AND that's self-inflicted . . . I think that ignores quite a bit how the world (the real world) works. That's another topic.)
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Twinky
It was always a "joke" esp in rez and for the Corps - plenty of work now, and we'll sleep after the Return. They used to say, everyone else will be partying, and there will be a quiet room off on one side whence emanates the gentle sound of the Way Corps snoring as they finally sleep.
I believe other cultish groups say similar...
For me, sleep wasn't an issue. I've always functioned perfectly well on 5 hrs, though I'm not and never have been a "morning person." More sleep makes me feel hung over. Actually in rez I was one that they tried to MAKE go to bed, LOL!!
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shortfuse
Do you suppose there's some playbook out there?
or do cult leaders just instinctively do these things?
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Bolshevik
Sleep Link: Here
Just a reminder this study likely did not included factors such as SIT, Believing, and God's Hand of Protection.
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Rocky
Yeah, and the radical Islamic jihadi suicide bomber gets 70 virgins after doing the deed. It's all psychological manipulation. TWIts read about "the hope" and knew they had a mechanism to manipulate.
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shortfuse
I hope no one teaches the terrorists about speaking in tongues. Then we're screwed.
Also interesting article. My thought is that this kind of sleep deprivation torture seemed dismissible, but the more subtle "sleep is for suckas" could yield similar results over time.
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GeorgeStGeorge
Were you allowed to go to bed BEFORE midnight? It seems to ne that going to bed at 10:30 or 11:00 still met the requirements and would have allowed a bit more sleep.
George
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waysider
No, we worked at the limb HQ until about 9:30, drove back to the complex, which was about 30 minutes away, and then had night fellowships from 10:00 to 10:30. The remaining time was used to wash dinner dishes, prep the next day's breakfast, have house meetings and so on. It was a struggle at times to get everything done by midnight.
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