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The Gospel Whereby A Man Is Saved - Has It Changed?

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3 hours ago, Raf said:

By all means, correct me if I'm mistaken.

No problem. It should be one of the benefits of it being a discussion rather than an argument.

3 hours ago, Raf said:

Can I simply refuse to keep arguing the same point over and over again?

Sure, if it were the same point.  But, as noted below, it's not. 

3 hours ago, Raf said:

A. Hebrews does not establish that the people of Moses' time knew what Hebrews would later record

Hebrews 4:1-2 makes a valid summation of events recorded in scriptures written by Moses.  Whether or not the people of Moses' time knew there would be a review of their situation given hundreds of years later is a mute point and doesn't in any way change what was written by Moses.  If you choose to disagree with Hebrews summation of it, then feel free to offer an alternate.

3 hours ago, Raf said:

B. Hebrews is discussing a promise of "entering into rest," not of eternal salvation...

Exactly the point.  I think that was and is the purpose (and probably the extent) of the gospel that was preached to Israel. 
But Israel (for the most part) did not (in Moses day), nor would they (in Paul's day) believe it.  Hence, they did not enter into said rest.

3 hours ago, Raf said:

B.    ...Hebrews is drawing a parallel, not establishing that the "good news" of eternal life was preached to the people of Moses' time.

I do think there is a parallel that exists (which I also suppose that the people of Moses time were oblivious to), but it may not be the same as you think.  The parallel, as I see it, stems from Genesis 2:2, when God rested from all His work.  There's a completeness involved, indicating there was no work left undone.  The children of Israel were at the gates of the promised land.  All that remained was for them to enter in.  And the good news that was delivered to them there was to do only one thing... to walk right in.  Did they? Nope.  They first wanted to have a look see and spy out the land.  Refused to believe that God would drive out the inhabitants of the land before them with hornets.  In short, they (as a nation) couldn't believe jack squat unless they first saw it with their own eyes (and then struggle with that.)  So what if they did or didn't have any awareness or knowledge of eternal life?  That's not the issue.  The issue is their failure to believe the gospel that was delivered to them.  Hebrews addresses much the same issue, regardless of whether it's paralleled (for Israel as a nation) to the (physical) kingdom of heaven on earth, or (for any individual) to the finished work of (eternal) salvation.   Individually, we can look at it and see/understand the alignment (or parallel, if you prefer) with eternal salvation.  There is nothing left for us to do, except accept (i.e., believe) it.  And when we do, there is rest. It is done, done, and done. But if we don't understand or believe it's done, there's no rest from it.   

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God is able to save to the uttermost all them which call upon His name. No specifics re:Buddha, Brahma, Vishnu, Muhammad, Confucius, The Great Spirit of the Indigenous Americans, Sikhism, Christianity

Honest question, and I don't mean to be all "questioning faith atheist" about this one: Where is the first indication in the Bible of anything that can unequivocally be referred to as an "afterlife,"

No, I actually don't see it as being off topic (...and even if I thought it were, given it was the first response in days to the topic, I'd have no issue with discussing it.) It's certainly not p

The alternative is the obvious: the Torah says what it says, not what Hebrews says. Hebrews is a later writer drawing a literary parallel. There's no indication that the original readers of the Torah, or those who lived through the events described therein, would have come to the same conclusion as the writer of Hebrews.

And yes, this is the SAME discussion.


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  • 3 months later...

I owed someone a response, I think it was Steve Lortz but am not sure of the sub-forum topic: this one by TLF is the correct exchange of information but I don't see any posts by either Steve or myself.

It's been some time and the path is overgrown: I have searched extensively but have been unable to find the formum sub-topic (it's a topic like this one TLC started).

I had some references to post but will wait and see if this is the correct spot.

Any help is appreciated.

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  • 1 month later...

Thanks waysider but I will post here.  I think that I confused promises with salvation in texts that I read, here are those reference texts: Isaih 32: 15-18, 14: 3-5, Ezek 11: 17-21, 39:29 and Joel 2: 28-29.

I ask that the scholars review those texts and enlighten.

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