If you think that concept is God Breathed, you might want to take a second look at what you're standing in.
Yes. There are times when that is proper.... then again... times not.
Yes. I do look at what ACTIVITIES that I am engaged in to asses the fundamental life principles I've implemented.
What I do NOT do is engage the associations other's here have with certain passages of the text, and I certainly don't manufacture associations whole scale, like I've seen done with the David/Bathsheba/Uriah/Nathan story.
I think it would be a great victory-for your sake- to get past this same FALSE DILEMMA that blocks your growth, but you seem determined to cling to it. Really, my offer to explain it to you is still a sincere one.
You may have missed my request for more of an explanation. I believe your sincerity here.
But, again, I'm not trying to persuade with logic here. Just expressing my feelings. My feelings with So_crates are getting to the point I doubt if we can have a civil conversation.
Maybe this would be a good time to revisit the Concorde fallacy.
I understand this. Never heard of that name, though.
There are times when I look on this idea for fine tuning my guidance systems. I am well aware of it.
I have a dear old friend who was recently scammed by Internet romance con artists. He felt had invested too much money in "her" to give up while the scam was raging. But then again, that same amount of investment was peanuts compared to the huge dollar promised payoff when her fortune becomes available. I tried to get him to see what was happening for over 5 years. He lost everything.
By contrast, I have enjoyed some of the promised benefits already, and more are building.
Now, there IS an investment in my life that I need to cut my losses on. It's posting here.
I think it would be a great victory-for your sake- to get past this same FALSE DILEMMA that blocks your growth, but you seem determined to cling to it. Really, my offer to explain it to you is still a sincere one.
I found how I responded earlier:
On 2/10/2018 at 10:21 PM, WordWolf said:
There's the same FALSE DILEMMA again. My offer to help you was a sincere one. I think you really don't see it.
You are right there. [referring to "I think you really don't see it."]
I was SO much not using as an argument element, that I did not and still do not see what you are talking about.
I was merely offering my disbelief that so many here could have such false expectations of the what they can talk me into. My hat's off to Rocky for seeing what I meant.
You got my curiosity up now, though. Give me the elementary lesson on it. I don't know what I logic steps went befor it, all I knew was my exasperation at cartoon simpleton models of how life and belief works.
Actually, there were few 12 years ago, and some I'm still in touch with.
A few in 12 years, pretty anemic.
Quote
But then we will just have to argue about the numbers. And I'm too weary for that.
Interesting how you'll argue about anything but the facts.
Quote
I tried to answer a lot of your questions. Can you be happy with that?
No, you repeatedly dodged the real questions and refused to see the holes you could fly a 747 through in your theories.
Quote
I'm trying to find a nice conversational way we can wrap all this up and I can fade into the woodwork.
The easiest way to fade into the woodwork is to fade into the woodwork
Quote
So, So_crates, how do we wrap this up? We're going around in circles. Maybe we should just leave it to: I'm miserable and unhappy. I can be happy with that.
Once again, you remind me of the guy that walks into a bar, slaps everyone in the face, then when he gets the predicted response he starts whining he wants peace.
You want peace? Don't slap people.
30 minutes ago, Mike said:
My feelings with So_crates are getting to the point I doubt if we can have a civil conversation.
That's your fault, not mine.
So, don't think I'm going to fade into the woodwork.
As you would say, I'm going to continue presenting the alternate view
I understand this. Never heard of that name, though.
There are times when I look on this idea for fine tuning my guidance systems. I am well aware of it.
I have a dear old friend who was recently scammed by Internet romance con artists. He felt had invested too much money in "her" to give up while the scam was raging. But then again, that same amount of investment was peanuts compared to the huge dollar promised payoff when her fortune becomes available. I tried to get him to see what was happening for over 5 years. He lost everything.
By contrast, I have enjoyed some of the promised benefits already, and more are building.
Now, there IS an investment in my life that I need to cut my losses on. It's posting here.
I think you missed the point, Mike. You're assuming the post was directed at you.
The above line was unneccessary. Obviously you don't know how people have conversations, if you did you wouldn't insult them with a line like the above quote. What was that you were saying about civil conversations?
"By gentle deeds the gentle heart is known. Nothing berays a man more than his manners."
--Edmund Spenser
Quote
I have a question for you: what is your goal with this?
What is "this"?
Quote
Do you see a realizable goal?
You mean for being in the forum? Yes.
Now its my turn: You obviously have a goal for bring in the forum, what does success look like?
So how shall we end this? You want me to roll over and join you in all your misery? You really do look miserable with the Pure Evil model. I'm happy with my text. How shall we end it? I wonder if I'll cave? ...I wonder.
Mike, oh Mike. You have written and described several self-limiting utterances. That you keep saying things like, "You really do look miserable with the Pure Evil model," isn't critical thinking, it's a declaration of the walls you construct to keep yourself locked into your favored world view. That's apparently more of a projection on your part than anything else. It's about you, not about those with whom you pretend to converse.
I just have to say, it’s almost comical to see someone claim wierwille is not their hero and yet in the same paragraph whitewash wierwille (aka the plagiarist – a known liar and thief…swindler…sexual predator…adulterer…greedy weasel… drunkard) so as to suggest he’s God’s chosen vessel “to deliver His Word to us sinners.” How nauseating and illogical is that ?! ...It would be counterproductive to all the work God did through Jesus Christ !
I mean…really? God made a plagiarist – a known liar and thief…swindler…sexual predator…adulterer…greedy weasel… and drunkard - His authorized agent to deliver His Word to us…that’s not how God works! take for example:
9 Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: neither the sexually immoral, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor men who practice homosexuality, 10 nor thieves, nor the greedy, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God. 11 And such were some of you. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God…I Corinthians 6: 9-11 ESV
You know, I understand that we’re all sinners – we’re human - - imperfect - - but what about all those verses that talk about Christians forsaking their sinful habits…we're not just sinners now - - we're redeemed sinners - and God expects us to act like it! Like in the above passage quoted – it notes in verse 11 "and such WERE some of you…” – past tense. wierwille THE hypocrite was an unrepentant sinner – a plagiarist – a known liar and thief…swindler…sexual predator…adulterer…greedy weasel… and a drunkard until the day he died...folks that want to put wierwille on the same plane as any of those who wrote the scriptures need to show chapter and verse where God authorizes an unrepentant willful unconscionable sinner to deliver his message to believers. Show me anywhere in the Bible where God endorsed hypocrites !
talk about the more redundant lie...we've seen this time and again on various threads - wierwille-admirers intent on whitewashing the hypocrite!
Geez Louise ! promote wierwille as an authorized agent to deliver God’s message?! ...I guess a person’s hero-picker could be broken if it’s not already jacked-up with some troll-agenda or got sucked into the black hole of wierwille’s delusion…regardless I would recommend they seek professional counseling…cuz that’s just flat out weird to encourage folks to follow a sick fvck like wierwille…I'm starting to think this thread is about the growing pain of the wierwille-obsessed.
== == == ==
a side note to any folks still in TWI,
if any of this makes sense to you – then get out NOW !
Do not pass the cornucopia.
Get out now and don’t look back.
What are you waiting for? Do you expect Jesus Christ to personally knock you off your WOW-mobile? It’s a lot less painful or embarrassing to take heed of the light being shed on TWI’s dark underbelly by Grease Spot Café.
The Way International's dark legacy will continue to gnaw at your soul and render you totally ineffective to serve the Lord Jesus Christ.
Do not fvck with toxic doctrine & practice…tell your cult-leadership they can kiss your a$$ goodbye.
Now its my turn: You obviously have a goal for bring in the forum, what does success look like?
I had a goal, but seriously downsized it when I saw things weren't as I expected. Instead of heavy posting, I am reading more, and I am learning what's happened at TWI the past 10 years as well as here.
Right now I'm also trying to see how possible it is to have a seriously downsized presence here versus a zero presence.
What are your thoughts regarding that possibility?
Mike, oh Mike. You have written and described several self-limiting utterances. That you keep saying things like, "You really do look miserable with the Pure Evil model," isn't critical thinking, it's a declaration of the walls you construct to keep yourself locked into your favored world view. That's apparently more of a projection on your part than anything else. It's about you, not about those with whom you pretend to converse.
Actually, I think my calling out the Pure Evil model is not yet understood. I see it as a suspension of critical thinking. It's a lazy model. It's just too complicated to think that a human can be capable of great evil, and then turn around the next day and do great good. That's COMPLICATED! That's way too complicated when dealing with a human being's life spanning decades and ending decades ago.
Yet, within myself, I know the complications, and I know I can do both.
Did you see those two links on how others have analyzed similarly the this evil villain stuff in sports, politics, and fairy tales?
There's a great economy of thought that a Pure Evil model allows, but it also can occlude some vital aspects of real human lives if used too much, for too long.
Actually, I think my calling out the Pure Evil model is not yet understood. I see it as a suspension of critical thinking. It's a lazy model. It's just too complicated to think that a human can be capable of great evil, and then turn around the next day and do great good.
And what's that great good Saint Vic did. A year ago, I spent a year reading most of the posts in this forum, starting with the earliest they had and working my way to the most recent.
The closest thing I found was someone, when asked, said the good Saint Vic did was teaching him the Word.
That pre-supposes that Saint Vic taught the Word and not Weirwille over the World (WOW).
Teaching someone your private interpretation of the bible doesn't even near balances all the lives ruined and all the psychological damage done. And all in the name of God.
Quote
That's COMPLICATED! That's way too complicated when dealing with a human being's life spanning decades and ending decades ago.
No, that's a rationalization. Was Stalin an evil man? Was Lenin? Was Hitler? And , by your argument, you know how? They lived even longer ago.
Quote
There's a great economy of thought that a Pure Evil model allows, but it also can occlude some vital aspects of real human lives if used too much, for too long.
Herod, was he evil? What about Goliath? Were the Scribes and Pharisees evil? Was Pontius Pilate evil? Was Judas? How do you know? Again, we have limited accounts of their lives and they lived so very long ago, so by your reasoning...Again, your argument falls flat.
Actually, I think my calling out the Pure Evil model is not yet understood. I see it as a suspension of critical thinking. It's a lazy model. It's just too complicated to think that a human can be capable of great evil, and then turn around the next day and do great good. That's COMPLICATED! That's way too complicated when dealing with a human being's life spanning decades and ending decades ago.
Yet, within myself, I know the complications, and I knowBELIEVE I can do both.
Did you see those two links on how others have analyzed similarly the this evil villain stuff in sports, politics, and fairy tales?
There's a great economy of thought that a Pure Evil model allows, but it also can occlude some vital aspects of real human lives if used too much, for too long.
Well... not yet understood by whom? You take shortcuts, make assumptions and suppositions without testing the validity thereof, (almost certainly) overestimate your own capabilities/skills, all of which adds up to making invalid generalizations that disrespect those with whom you are engaged in discussion.
Herod, was he evil? What about Goliath? Were the Scribes and Pharisees evil? Was Pontius Pilate evil? Was Judas? How do you know? Again, we have limited accounts of their lives and they lived so very long ago, so by your reasoning...Again, your argument falls flat.
I often think about King Saul. When he was anointed he must have done a lot of good to get that distinction. Look at the anguish David went through, yet did not kill him when he had the chance. He recognized that Saul, at that time, still was to be respected.
Then look at the anguish David himself caused years later.I don’t hold a Pure Good model of David. I imagine there were lots of boundary excursions prior to his problems with Bathsheba. I imagine David had to callous his conscience for a long time, like years, to get to the point of doing what he did to Uriah and Uriah’s and Bathsheba’s family. David is a very complicated man of good and evil. We only see an abbreviated account of his life in scripture.
Paul said this of himself in Romans 7, that he was a complicated mix of good and evil.
I imagine there were a few grieving relatives who’s worst nightmare was Paul repenting and becoming a Christian and saying “Bless you” to them.
Peter’s sin was subtle in our human minds, but a great disappointment to God. Wasn’t Peter’s first time either. Yay!He finally got it together at the end and came back to Paul’s epistles.
People are complicated. Only simple model I know of is Jesus Christ.He had have a Father other than Adam for that.
I often think about King Saul. When he was anointed he must have done a lot of good to get that distinction. Look at the anguish David went through, yet did not kill him when he had the chance. He recognized that Saul, at that time, still was to be respected.
Then look at the anguish David himself caused years later.I don’t hold a Pure Good model of David. I imagine there were lots of boundary excursions prior to his problems with Bathsheba. I imagine David had to callous his conscience for a long time, like years, to get to the point of doing what he did to Uriah and Uriah’s and Bathsheba’s family. David is a very complicated man of good and evil. We only see an abbreviated account of his life in scripture.
Paul said this of himself in Romans 7, that he was a complicated mix of good and evil.
I imagine there were a few grieving relatives who’s worst nightmare was Paul repenting and becoming a Christian and saying “Bless you” to them.
Peter’s sin was subtle in our human minds, but a great disappointment to God. Wasn’t Peter’s first time either. Yay!He finally got it together at the end and came back to Paul’s epistles.
People are complicated. Only simple model I know of is Jesus Christ.He had have a Father other than Adam for that.
Once again you let your hero worship get in the way. Your hero worship model is no different than any other model out there. It turns a person who did countless evil deeds into somebody to be admired.
Because you apparently can't get beyond your hero worship, you both dodged my questions and, once again, refused to see the holes in your reasoning that you could fly the space shuttle through
To wit:
56 minutes ago, So_crates said:
Was Stalin an evil man? Was Lenin? Was Hitler? And , by your argument, you know how? They lived even longer ago.
56 minutes ago, So_crates said:
Herod, was he evil? What about Goliath? Were the Scribes and Pharisees evil? Was Pontius Pilate evil? Was Judas? How do you know? Again, we have limited accounts of their lives and they lived so very long ago, so by your reasoning...Again, your argument falls flat.
Judas is another one I know about. (Sorry, don't know them all you listed.)
When Jesus sent out the 12 Judas was one of them. He healed people and cast out spirits. He witnessed to the truth. He also had a stealing problem, and a few others. Then, even after his worst actions, God offers him eternal life at Pentecost.
Judas is another one I know about. (Sorry, don't know them all you listed.)
1 hour ago, So_crates said:
Herod, was he evil? What about Goliath? Were the Scribes and Pharisees evil? Was Pontius Pilate evil? Was Judas? How do you know? Again, we have limited accounts of their lives and they lived so very long ago, so by your reasoning...Again, your argument falls flat.
You don't know Goliath?
You don't know Pontius Pilate?
You don't know Herod?
And you don't know who the Scribes and the Pharisees are?
And yet you want to lecture me on the Bible?
You know the story of David (to the extent that you want to twist it to fit your hero worship) yet you never encountered one of the names above?
You know about Judas (to the extent again that you can twist it to fit your hero worship) yet you never encountered any of the above?
You spent 12 years studying PLAF and you never encountered any of the above?
And you don't know who the Scribes and the Pharisees are?
And yet you want to lecture me on the Bible?
You spent 12 years studying PLAF and you never encountered any of the above?
I don't have enough data on them to show you major complications that preclude a simple pure evil or pure good model.
What do you think about the data I DID give you regarding complicated lives?
Do you have a complicated life?
Sometimes my complications go in waves. For a year or two I'll be more complicated, and then swing (sometimes quickly) into being less complicated. I guess that's an added complication in itself.
I don't have enough data on them to show you major complications that preclude a simple pure evil ore pure good model.
What do you think about the data I did give you regarding complicated lives?
Do you have a complicated life?
Sometimes my complications go in waves. For a year or two I'll be more complicated, and then swing (sometimes quickly) into being less complicated. I guess that's an added complication in itself.
27 minutes ago, Mike said:
Judas is another one I know about. (Sorry, don't know them all you listed.)
So then why did you tell me you didn't know them?
Once again, you dishonesty is showing
So, tell me, is both sides being honest a requiremeent for having a conversation?
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Twinky
I do not see that this says, Love a book (not even a bible) - not love PFAL. I do see that it requires some practical application, otherwise, how else will you love your neighbour? By reading th
Twinky
Mike, please re-read the first two posts when I opened this thread. You indicated that you had been re-reading heart-rending stories on old threads and your understanding was growing. So this thread
Twinky
Well, this thread has wandered off point somewhat. This was the point: I'm seeing lots of defensiveness from Mike, but nothing about empathy or understanding about the hurt caused by TWI.
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Mike
Yes. There are times when that is proper.... then again... times not.
Yes. I do look at what ACTIVITIES that I am engaged in to asses the fundamental life principles I've implemented.
What I do NOT do is engage the associations other's here have with certain passages of the text, and I certainly don't manufacture associations whole scale, like I've seen done with the David/Bathsheba/Uriah/Nathan story.
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Mike
You may have missed my request for more of an explanation. I believe your sincerity here.
But, again, I'm not trying to persuade with logic here. Just expressing my feelings. My feelings with So_crates are getting to the point I doubt if we can have a civil conversation.
I'm thankful for your reaching out. Rocky too.
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Mike
I understand this. Never heard of that name, though.
There are times when I look on this idea for fine tuning my guidance systems. I am well aware of it.
I have a dear old friend who was recently scammed by Internet romance con artists. He felt had invested too much money in "her" to give up while the scam was raging. But then again, that same amount of investment was peanuts compared to the huge dollar promised payoff when her fortune becomes available. I tried to get him to see what was happening for over 5 years. He lost everything.
By contrast, I have enjoyed some of the promised benefits already, and more are building.
Now, there IS an investment in my life that I need to cut my losses on. It's posting here.
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Mike
I found how I responded earlier:
You are right there. [referring to "I think you really don't see it."]
I was SO much not using as an argument element, that I did not and still do not see what you are talking about.
I was merely offering my disbelief that so many here could have such false expectations of the what they can talk me into. My hat's off to Rocky for seeing what I meant.
You got my curiosity up now, though. Give me the elementary lesson on it. I don't know what I logic steps went befor it, all I knew was my exasperation at cartoon simpleton models of how life and belief works.
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So_crates
A few in 12 years, pretty anemic.
Interesting how you'll argue about anything but the facts.
No, you repeatedly dodged the real questions and refused to see the holes you could fly a 747 through in your theories.
The easiest way to fade into the woodwork is to fade into the woodwork
Once again, you remind me of the guy that walks into a bar, slaps everyone in the face, then when he gets the predicted response he starts whining he wants peace.
You want peace? Don't slap people.
That's your fault, not mine.
So, don't think I'm going to fade into the woodwork.
As you would say, I'm going to continue presenting the alternate view
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Mike
May I suggest you try hitting me again, but with just one question? That's how people have conversations.
I have a question for you: what is your goal with this? Do you see a realizable goal?
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waysider
I think you missed the point, Mike. You're assuming the post was directed at you.
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Mike
I'm missing a lot of points. There are a lot of ideas flying back and forth here.
Is it (Concorde) related to the fallacy Word Wolf was talking about? I never memorized any names of these things.
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waysider
I posted a link.
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Mike
I read your link. Is that the same thing that WW referenced?
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waysider
No.
HERE
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So_crates
The above line was unneccessary. Obviously you don't know how people have conversations, if you did you wouldn't insult them with a line like the above quote. What was that you were saying about civil conversations?
"By gentle deeds the gentle heart is known. Nothing berays a man more than his manners."
--Edmund Spenser
What is "this"?
You mean for being in the forum? Yes.
Now its my turn: You obviously have a goal for bring in the forum, what does success look like?
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Rocky
Mike, oh Mike. You have written and described several self-limiting utterances. That you keep saying things like, "You really do look miserable with the Pure Evil model," isn't critical thinking, it's a declaration of the walls you construct to keep yourself locked into your favored world view. That's apparently more of a projection on your part than anything else. It's about you, not about those with whom you pretend to converse.
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Grace Valerie Claire
T-Bone,
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Mike
I had a goal, but seriously downsized it when I saw things weren't as I expected. Instead of heavy posting, I am reading more, and I am learning what's happened at TWI the past 10 years as well as here.
Right now I'm also trying to see how possible it is to have a seriously downsized presence here versus a zero presence.
What are your thoughts regarding that possibility?
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Mike
Actually, I think my calling out the Pure Evil model is not yet understood. I see it as a suspension of critical thinking. It's a lazy model. It's just too complicated to think that a human can be capable of great evil, and then turn around the next day and do great good. That's COMPLICATED! That's way too complicated when dealing with a human being's life spanning decades and ending decades ago.
Yet, within myself, I know the complications, and I know I can do both.
Did you see those two links on how others have analyzed similarly the this evil villain stuff in sports, politics, and fairy tales?
There's a great economy of thought that a Pure Evil model allows, but it also can occlude some vital aspects of real human lives if used too much, for too long.
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So_crates
And what's that great good Saint Vic did. A year ago, I spent a year reading most of the posts in this forum, starting with the earliest they had and working my way to the most recent.
The closest thing I found was someone, when asked, said the good Saint Vic did was teaching him the Word.
That pre-supposes that Saint Vic taught the Word and not Weirwille over the World (WOW).
Teaching someone your private interpretation of the bible doesn't even near balances all the lives ruined and all the psychological damage done. And all in the name of God.
No, that's a rationalization. Was Stalin an evil man? Was Lenin? Was Hitler? And , by your argument, you know how? They lived even longer ago.
Herod, was he evil? What about Goliath? Were the Scribes and Pharisees evil? Was Pontius Pilate evil? Was Judas? How do you know? Again, we have limited accounts of their lives and they lived so very long ago, so by your reasoning...Again, your argument falls flat.
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Rocky
Well... not yet understood by whom? You take shortcuts, make assumptions and suppositions without testing the validity thereof, (almost certainly) overestimate your own capabilities/skills, all of which adds up to making invalid generalizations that disrespect those with whom you are engaged in discussion.
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Mike
I often think about King Saul. When he was anointed he must have done a lot of good to get that distinction. Look at the anguish David went through, yet did not kill him when he had the chance. He recognized that Saul, at that time, still was to be respected.
Then look at the anguish David himself caused years later. I don’t hold a Pure Good model of David. I imagine there were lots of boundary excursions prior to his problems with Bathsheba. I imagine David had to callous his conscience for a long time, like years, to get to the point of doing what he did to Uriah and Uriah’s and Bathsheba’s family. David is a very complicated man of good and evil. We only see an abbreviated account of his life in scripture.
Paul said this of himself in Romans 7, that he was a complicated mix of good and evil.
I imagine there were a few grieving relatives who’s worst nightmare was Paul repenting and becoming a Christian and saying “Bless you” to them.
Peter’s sin was subtle in our human minds, but a great disappointment to God. Wasn’t Peter’s first time either. Yay! He finally got it together at the end and came back to Paul’s epistles.
People are complicated. Only simple model I know of is Jesus Christ. He had have a Father other than Adam for that.
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So_crates
Once again you let your hero worship get in the way. Your hero worship model is no different than any other model out there. It turns a person who did countless evil deeds into somebody to be admired.
Because you apparently can't get beyond your hero worship, you both dodged my questions and, once again, refused to see the holes in your reasoning that you could fly the space shuttle through
To wit:
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Mike
Judas is another one I know about. (Sorry, don't know them all you listed.)
When Jesus sent out the 12 Judas was one of them. He healed people and cast out spirits. He witnessed to the truth. He also had a stealing problem, and a few others. Then, even after his worst actions, God offers him eternal life at Pentecost.
Judas was complicated.
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So_crates
You don't know Goliath?
You don't know Pontius Pilate?
You don't know Herod?
And you don't know who the Scribes and the Pharisees are?
And yet you want to lecture me on the Bible?
You know the story of David (to the extent that you want to twist it to fit your hero worship) yet you never encountered one of the names above?
You know about Judas (to the extent again that you can twist it to fit your hero worship) yet you never encountered any of the above?
You spent 12 years studying PLAF and you never encountered any of the above?
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Mike
I don't have enough data on them to show you major complications that preclude a simple pure evil or pure good model.
What do you think about the data I DID give you regarding complicated lives?
Do you have a complicated life?
Sometimes my complications go in waves. For a year or two I'll be more complicated, and then swing (sometimes quickly) into being less complicated. I guess that's an added complication in itself.
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So_crates
So then why did you tell me you didn't know them?
Once again, you dishonesty is showing
So, tell me, is both sides being honest a requiremeent for having a conversation?
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