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Could John Lynn be the undisputed king of Offshoot ministries?


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On 1/8/2020 at 2:54 AM, WordWolf said:

For those who never looked for the threads on Momentus and Personal Prophecy here (there's a search function, after all), I'm posting 2 links as a public service.  The forum "Spirit and Truth Fellowship International" has both threads I'm linking to...

"CES and Momentous" and "Step Right Up, get your own personal prophecy."     Both have links to at least 1 other discussion at the GSC on their subjects.

https://www.greasespotcafe.com/ipb/topic/13316-ces-and-momentous/

https://www.greasespotcafe.com/ipb/topic/12632-step-right-up-get-your-own-personal-prophecy/

BTW, the "Momentus" thread was here:

https://www.greasespotcafe.com/ipb/topic/4424-momentus/

 

 

We had the links for those threads on pages 2 and 3, so I linked posted them to page 4 also.

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Lotza things kids, Having been around during that period of Lynn 's exit and having spoken with him twice the year he skated out, John Lynn's "quitting/getting fired" from the Way Ministry was ki

9. We do not believe that “faith” is a force generated by the human mind that automatically brings either good or bad into one’s life. To me, that's a very bizarre statement, and reads like it's

Hi Robinette, Your posts have brought up some interesting points and after giving them some thought I wanted to address a few things. God does forgive – but he does not always remove the con

So, some people want to just sweep it all under the rug.  They think it doesn't make a difference.

Their motivation?  They WANT to think JAL is reliable, they WANT to be able to trust him.  This lends stability to their beliefs without bothering to find a competent leader.   That's the "why" of it.   But, are they right?

 

John Lynn has taught error, repeatedly.  John Lynn still teaches error, VERY QUIETLY.   Does it matter?

 

This is the same John Lynn whose actual Christian "education" doesn't really exist.  He learned from a plagiarizing rapist who emphasized people idolizing him and getting all the money.  The only FORMAL education was the Dale Carnegie SALES training-  which was stolen because twi has NEVER paid a license to teach their copywritten material. 

What kind of career of Christian ministering did that prepare him for?

When planning to leave twi, he began gathering an audience.  Within a few years, he and a few others had already constructed a new group, complete with "the doctrines are etched in stone and above question"  and throwing in doctrines that others EASILY saw as dangerous-  and warned him about ("personal prophecy" and "Momentus."(    They proceeded anyway.  Why?    

A)  They were "above discussion" so changing their minds made them seem more human and less "above question."

B) "Personal Prophecy" allowed them to claim to speak for God and usurp God Almighty's authority on those foolish enough to go along with it.

C) "Momentus" allowed them to craft a new "insiders/outsiders"  thing like the Way Corps had been.

 

After far too many complaints, he's dropped talking about Momentus.  He still promotes it when someone's foolish enough to try to communicate with him, thus subjecting themselves to JAL's full advertising. (He refuses to dialogue, he claims he will dialogue but each time he's just advertised/)    

The "Personal Prophecy" thing was above question- even when it destroyed his own marriage.  He's stopped pushing that one.  AFAIK, he followed the advice of a GSC poster, and went back and rebuilt his marriage. (That was a good idea.)  Has he ever apologized, even in a general way, for pushing that doctrine at the costs of the lives of "his" membership?    For claiming the Bible supported that when it never did?    He has not- neither personally nor generally. He's never accepted any responsibility in EITHER disaster.

 

So, what does it matter?

We have here a man who supposedly was trained to be a Christian leader, but was instead trained BY a cult leader to BE a cult leader.   He then went our ant made a new cult- complete with destructive doctrines.  

When he and the others who wanted to be boss disagreed, he left that cult-  to immediately start working up ANOTHER. 

Here is a man who has been a poor example of a leader, a man who's led people into harm, REPEATEDLY, only to turn around and DO IT AGAIN.    

Ok, so he uses homespun expressions.  Is your spiritual life so barren that you have to listen to a PROVEN failure as a teacher, rather than thousands of more competent ones?    This man has destroyed lives and never said "I'm sorrry."  Are you getting in line to be next to have your life destroyed? 

 

When we're talking leaders, character matters.  When we're talking Christian/church leaders, character matters A LOT.

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22 hours ago, WordWolf said:

So, some people want to just sweep it all under the rug.  They think it doesn't make a difference.

Their motivation?  They WANT to think JAL is reliable, they WANT to be able to trust him.  This lends stability to their beliefs without bothering to find a competent leader.   That's the "why" of it.   But, are they right?

 

John Lynn has taught error, repeatedly.  John Lynn still teaches error, VERY QUIETLY.   Does it matter?

 

This is the same John Lynn whose actual Christian "education" doesn't really exist.  He learned from a plagiarizing rapist who emphasized people idolizing him and getting all the money.  The only FORMAL education was the Dale Carnegie SALES training-  which was stolen because twi has NEVER paid a license to teach their copywritten material. 

What kind of career of Christian ministering did that prepare him for?

When planning to leave twi, he began gathering an audience. 

Within a few years, he and a few others had already constructed a new group, complete with "the doctrines are etched in stone and above question"  and throwing in doctrines that others EASILY saw as dangerous-  and warned him about ("personal prophecy" and "Momentus."(    They proceeded anyway.  Why?    

A)  They were "above discussion" so changing their minds made them seem more human and less "above question."

B) "Personal Prophecy" allowed them to claim to speak for God and usurp God Almighty's authority on those foolish enough to go along with it.

C) "Momentus" allowed them to craft a new "insiders/outsiders"  thing like the Way Corps had been.

(SNIP)

 

Good post, WordWolf – I wanted to elaborate on some of your points.

How many times have we heard upper leadership in TWI refer to wierwille as “our father in The Word”? With former TWI leaders like Lynn starting an offshoot brings to mind an old adage: “like father like son” meaning a son's character or behavior can be expected to resemble that of his father.

Lynn didn’t try to hide the source of his material – as wierwille the preeminent plagiarist did. And by the way - I might add that not all of the material that wierwille stole was just straight forward Bible teaching or for that matter that he had a scholar's grasp of the material - think of lazy cheaters who copy off of students who have actually studied, did all the homework and can even show you again and again exactly how to solve the math problems on a test ; if you deconstruct the whole enchilada (aka wierwille's theology) you'll find an eclectic recipe that pulls from fundamentalism, dispensationalism, mysticism, magical thinking, Gnosticism, pseudo-science, lecherous musings, Drambuie-infused reveries and then compiled by self-serving scripture twisting. The end product was wierwille's egocentric theology as opposed to a Christ-centric theology...Now some of Lynn’s stuff does sound like he gives Christ more “airplay” – but (and I could be wrong on this) his message of Christ seems more like a marketing tool to develop and promote Lynn’s ideas, books and “services”.

For obvious reasons Lynn counted on TWI-followers' adulation of wierwille and their conditioned response to adhere to wierwille's "rightly-divided Word" as a means to sucker folks over to his own con game. So technically I guess he didn’t plagiarize a plagiarist – he attempts to perpetuate, propagate, elaborate and extrapolate on a plagiarist’s (wierwille's) twisted theology – in his own words, Lynn referred to wierwille’s egocentric theology as gold:

“Here’s an analogy that has blessed lots of people: WE HAVE ESCAPED FROM EGYPT WITH ALL THE GOLD! That’s right--we’re free, and we have all the right doctrine we heard, and the keys to learning more. So let’s spend the gold! That sounds better than sitting on it and lamenting our time in Egypt.”   From one of John Lynn’s letters    here    

 

Like father like son – on how Lynn got his audience.  It’s somewhat similar to wierwille hijacking Christians from the Jesus Movement (  see    here     and      here  ). It differs in a couple of ways though. wierwille commandeered Christians who had Christ as the head – and through  narcissism and megalomania wierwille made himself into the unannounced head of his counterfeit Christianity…so Lynn’s ploy is more along the lines of one thief stealing from what another thief stole. wierwille stole from Christ's flock. Lynn stole from wierwille's flock.

 

Like father like son. Some Grease Spotters referred to personal prophecy and momentous as “bludgeoning tools”:      “CES/STF has had several major mistakes: Momentus/VisionQuest used as a bludgeoning tool against people without their permission instead of a person using it on themself; Personal Prophecy is used in the same bludgeoning manner against someone like EL without her request or permission.” See     here  and    here   …I have not had any experience with personal prophecy or momentus – but it seems to me like Lynn found a cheap and convenient substitute for the intrusive-manipulative-berating-guilt-tripping tactics of the way corps program – I mean you don’t have to drum up goo-gobs of money from sponsors and you don’t have to relocate to a cult owned property for a couple of years – that’s all a plus, right? They beat up on your life more efficiently and pass the savings on to you.:evildenk: 

Edited by T-Bone
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On 4/12/2020 at 1:55 PM, Stayed Too Long said:

One thing the offshoots seem to avoid, which TWI made front and center, and why GSC is so necessary, is the condemnation we were made to feel if we would “copt out of the word.” Hammered in our heads was we would lose all rewards, or die,  if we left TWI. Martindale’s favorite blather was, “you will be a grease spot by midnight,” if you dare believe TWI was wrong and move on.
You were cut off from any and all friendships you had made while associated with TWI. Many were “marked and avoid” to add additional shame and ridicule. 

The offshoots teach pretty much what TWI taught, but I haven’t heard any of their followers finding it hard to leave. Apparently they learned this was not a good stratagy.

I have been gone along time and glad to find GSC is still here.

STL, great post!!  I remember years ago, there was a huge amount of condemnation, if people left TWI, for any reason.  I left TWI behind, when I was stationed overseas in 1988.  When I came back to the US in 1990, I had zero interest in being involved in TWI again.  Years later, I joined a church in Bethesda, MD.  What a revelation it was to me!! For years, and years, I had been taught by TWI, that attending a church was a waste of time, for a variety of reasons.  For example, they supposedly didn't know The Word, nor did they practice it.  Horse Shucks!!  The Methodist Church, I attended was warm, welcoming, and quite loving, more so than any Twig I ever attended.  Plus, the music was great!!  When, I needed help, people in the church helped me.  No one in TWI, ever helped me with anything.  I loved that church, and attended it for years.  However, circumstances changed, and I had to leave it.  However, that church will always hold a special place in my heart.  TWI taught me The Word, but I saw how often they didn't practice it.  I have never regretted leaving TWI decades ago.

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23 hours ago, WordWolf said:

John Lynn has taught error, repeatedly.  John Lynn still teaches error, VERY QUIETLY.   Does it matter?

When planning to leave twi, he began gathering an audience.  Within a few years, he and a few others had already constructed a new group, complete with "the doctrines are etched in stone and above question"  and throwing in doctrines that others EASILY saw as dangerous-  and warned him about ("personal prophecy" and "Momentus."(    They proceeded anyway.  Why?    

A)  They were "above discussion" so changing their minds made them seem more human and less "above question."

B) "Personal Prophecy" allowed them to claim to speak for God and usurp God Almighty's authority on those foolish enough to go along with it.

C) "Momentus" allowed them to craft a new "insiders/outsiders"  thing like the Way Corps had been.

After far too many complaints, he's dropped talking about Momentus.  He still promotes it when someone's foolish enough to try to communicate with him, thus subjecting themselves to JAL's full advertising. (He refuses to dialogue, he claims he will dialogue but each time he's just advertised/)    

The "Personal Prophecy" thing was above question- even when it destroyed his own marriage.  He's stopped pushing that one.  AFAIK, he followed the advice of a GSC poster, and went back and rebuilt his marriage. (That was a good idea.)  Has he ever apologized, even in a general way, for pushing that doctrine at the costs of the lives of "his" membership?    For claiming the Bible supported that when it never did?   

When we're talking leaders, character matters.  When we're talking Christian/church leaders, character matters A LOT.

John Lynn's wife saw that personal prophecy was not biblical and was only promoted to gain control of people. Yes, John made a mistake and got a divorce with her after ignoring her message. Yes, we all make mistakes. No one is perfect on the planet. But someone after reading his ex-wife's views on "Personal Prophecy" saw that she was truthful and factual. This person called up John Lynn and communicated with John while explaining that his ex wife was truthful and factual. He got John to connect again with his former wife and now they are back together again. I wonder who this person is? Perhaps someone named Mark Sangui. Perhaps it might be challenging for me to spell his last name because it is very long and even 11 letters. Hopefully I at least was able to pass 3rd grade math. 

Regarding teachings when John Lynn worked with John Schoenheit and Mark Graeser, the three of them were able to write a very good biblical study book, named "One God & One Lord". After reading this book about two years ago, I give this book a grade of "A".  When I was on vacation in the Philippines, I even shared some of this book's content to my friends there and they agreed and liked this book's content also. Christian people in the Philippines are mostly Catholic. 

Edited by Mark Sanguinetti
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2 hours ago, Mark Sanguinetti said:

John Lynn's wife saw that personal prophecy was not biblical and was only promoted to gain control of people. Yes, John made a mistake and got a divorce with her after ignoring her message. Yes, we all make mistakes. No one is perfect on the planet. But someone after reading his ex-wife's views on "Personal Prophecy" saw that she was truthful and factual. This person called up John Lynn and communicated with John while explaining that his ex wife was truthful and factual. He got John to connect again with his former wife and now they are back together again. I wonder who this person is? Perhaps someone named Mark Sangui. Perhaps it might be challenging for me to spell his last name because it is very long and even 11 letters. Hopefully I at least was able to pass 3rd grade math. 

Regarding teachings when John Lynn worked with John Schoenheit and Mark Graeser, the three of them were able to write a very good biblical study book, named "One God & One Lord". After reading this book about two years ago, I give this book a grade of "A".  When I was on vacation in the Philippines, I even shared some of this book's content to my friends there and they agreed and liked this book's content also. Christian people in the Philippines are mostly Catholic. 

Mark, good for John and his wife getting back together again.  I pray this time, the marriage will be successful.

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On 9/26/2020 at 6:46 PM, Robinette Byden said:

In all due respect to your response, WordWolf, I don't believe I was active with The Way during this "MOMENTUS incident", maybe if I had, I wouldn't give John Lynn the time of day right now. I can't help but think of somebody like Pastor Jim Bakker, who back in the 80's had a multi-million dollar world-wide ministry called the PTL Club and then served several years in Prison on Fraud charges. Today, Bakker remarried, has a church service in Branson MO, and managed to get a weekday, half hour show on Daystar TV. Not too shabby, but it's clearly a mere shell of the Ministry Bakker had 35-40 years ago.

On one hand, I respect the hundreds, if not thousands, of people who literally got exploited by Bakker via contributing tons of money to his ministry while he and then wife, Tammy Faye Bakker were living like grossly spoiled billionaires, to either go worship elsewhere or just plain not do anything at all for God anymore. I definitely get it.

On the flip-side, I'm eternally grateful that God Almighty gives Second Chances to people. If Jim Bakker is still ripping people off and messing them over spiritually, I'm sure God will make him pay for that on Judgement Day. Ditto with King David having an affair with a married woman and still continuing as Israel's spiritual leader. Ditto with Paul the Apostle representing God after murdering numerous Christians.

Just for the record, I'm not a "member" to either John's TLTF, or Bakker's Branson MO church, nor have I given even a penny to either of their ministries. If either or both are con artists ripping people off or destroying folks spiritually, I'm sure God Almighty will deal with them come Judgement Day. Call me naive or gullible if you will, but I just respect these two guys or anybody else who strives to make an effort to do God's Will. Will there be some back-sliding here and there? Probably, but give them some credit for persistence and determination.

I hope, WordWolf, this clears some stuff up a little bit.

Peace out.

 

Hi Robinette,

Your posts have brought up some interesting points and after giving them some thought I wanted to address a few things.

God does forgive – but he does not always remove the consequences of sin. You mentioned David remained king even after his sins (adultery and the murder of Uriah). That’s true but even though he was forgiven there were severe lingering consequences. Since he had done evil to another man’s family, King David would receive evil in his own family – the rape of Tamar (daughter of David by Macaah) by David’s son Amnon and then another son of David Absalom avenges Tamar by murdering Amnon (    II Samuel 13        ). Sometime later Absalom was rebellious – and quietly built up support, declared himself king and mounted a revolt at Hebron, forcing David to flee to Jerusalem (  II Samuel 15      ); later on Absalom set up a tent on the roof of the palace ( perhaps throwing in David's face where his adulterous musing began) and had sexual relations with David’s concubines to assert his right to his father’s throne (    II Samuel 16: 21, 22      )       – fulfilling the judgement pronounced by Nathan (   II Samuel 12: 11, 12     )…after his affair with Bathsheba and his murder of Uriah, David wrote of his confession and plea for forgiveness in   Psalm 51    ...the whole mess was not something that was swept under the carpet.

== == ==

Moving on to your reference of Paul chosen to be an apostle of Jesus Christ even after he so violently persecuted the church – you left out the most critical life-changing event – his conversion – being witnessed to by Jesus Christ himself! Paul’s former life as a persecutor would indeed look odd on an application to be a pastor of a church. Who would hire someone like that? Indeed many Christians initially had a hard time believing this persecutor had changed for the better and was now truly one of them  (     Acts 9       )…Paul even said of himself he was unworthy to be called an apostle – probably recalling his previous life of overseeing the imprisonment and death of Christians – but he could not deny the effect of God’s grace and forgiveness  (   I Corinthians 15  verses 8-10     )  “The conversion of Paul, in spite of his attempts to completely eradicate Christianity, is seen as evidence of the power of Divine Grace, with "no fall so deep that grace cannot descend to it" and "no height so lofty that grace cannot lift the sinner to it." It also demonstrates "God's power to use everything, even the hostile persecutor, to achieve the divine purpose."  From   Wikipedia on the conversion of Paul     . Again Paul's former lifestyle as a persecutor of the Church was not something that was swept under the carpet.

 

On 9/28/2020 at 1:25 AM, Robinette Byden said:

First off, if you're trying to get someone to settle their differences with somebody else, shouldn't you try to get them to confront their demons, face-to-face? The former Way leaders who often get trashed on this forum by people identifying themselves as, "T-Bone", or "Mickey Mouse" probably wouldn't be too inclined to come here on the Internet if all the criticisms are from a one-way street when they have absolutely no clue who you guys are behind your pseudonyms.

Has anybody here ever invited Chris Geer or Craig Martindale to come on Grease Spot Cafe to address some long lingering concerns? If not, why not? Those guys might tell you to go BLEEP yourselves, but I don't believe either of them would shoot anybody for just asking. The absolute worst thing that could happen is they'd probably just say "No" to you -- Is that too horrifying of an experience for you guys to imagine?

Bottom Line is, I don't think you're handling any counseling opportunities in accordance with  Christian or Biblical standards. Also, do some of these folks coming to Grease Spot Cafe to vent their Tales of Woe about the Way Ministry, have any legal grounds to sue them in Civil Court? If so, why not just recommend them to a lawyer who'd handle their case for a nominal fee? Or maybe help establish a GoFundMe account for them?

Taunting the Way leaders, or swearing at them on the Internet while hiding behind pseudonyms isn't helping anything, it's just making things worse. If folks are still experiencing nightmares and flashbacks 20+ years after leaving the Way Ministry, they probably ought to seek the help of a Psychiatrist and maybe ask them if they could prescribe some medication for them. Actually, there's no shame in doing something like that if you know you need the help.

Besides that, the Way Ministry certainly isn't the first church group in American history to find leaders sexually exploiting its membership and it probably won't be the last. What about the PTL Club, or Jimmy Swaggart, or Marcus Lamb, or more recently, Jerry Falwell Jr.? Heck, for that matter, what about the Baptist church down the street in your neighborhood? There are stories ALL THE TIME about local Pastors, Priests, Rabbis, etc., sexually exploiting their members -- please don't patronize everybody here by claiming that situation is ONLY unique to the Way Ministry.

Lastly -- speaking about Patronizing everybody here on Grease Spot Cafe -- the Way Ministry, even in its "hey day" back in the late 70's thru early 80's was NEVER as big in membership as y'all are claiming it was/is. The Way was NEVER as big as the Unification Church (Moonies), or Hari Krishnas, or Scientology. Nor did it ever have a membership as big as the Mormons, or the Jehovah Witnesses. If I'm wrong, why didn't incidents like, The Passing of the Patriarch, or Craig Martindale's sexual assault lawsuits ever make the National Press? The folks I mentioned in the previous paragraph all made the National Press for their incidents, so why didn't the Way Ministry follow suit? Also, weren't there a handful of people who authored books about the demise of the Way Ministry? If so, how come none of those publications ever made the New York Times Best Seller List, or even, the Amazon Best Seller List?

So many questions, so few answers.

P.S.  In response to Rocky's question: I'm NOT still active in the Way Ministry -- I stopped fellow-shipping with them in '86.

 

One good model for handling issues within the church is in   I Corinthians 5      - Paul brings up the immorality of one of the church members – but he devotes some criticism to the pride of the rest of the church members in ignoring such blatant immorality. Paul talks of the powerful influence of evil when it’s tolerated – a little leaven will permeate and corrupt the whole church. I believe this issue is revisited in  II Corinthians 2      Paul talks about the biblical process of disciplining being successful, the person repented and it is time to grant forgiveness...again the issue was not something that was swept under the carpet - it was addressed publicly. 

If we look at Matthew 5: 23, 24  we find that reconciling with someone we offended comes before any other religious obligation - even worship...and so we see the point of forgiveness is reconciliation – to God and the church...and another practical matter to consider is what happens to both sides of the offense (the offender and the one offended) - if the situation or event is ignored and allowed to fester - there will probably be a festering of resentment, anger, frustration, etc. on both sides - further complicating things and compounding more "little" sins on both sides...and really if stuff doesn't get resolved people usually get on with their lives - but there will always be some "bad blood" in the family in the here and now...and realistically speaking - none of us are perfect - we've all got some kind of dysfunctionality going on in our relationships. 

I began learning about biblical counseling from one TWI-clergy guy in our area – he held a seminar for Twig leaders and much of the material was based on some videos and books by Jay Adams. After that we were encouraged to study, review and practice this stuff in our areas of responsibility (as a side note one thing that helped to broaden peoples’ horizons in TWI was when folks read outside TWI’s dogma entrenched books) ; years later – after spending two years in-residence corps training and being up close around top leadership – I began to realize there was a disconnect with the priority of walking the talk and top leadership. I  was seeing their hypocrisy; there was a double standard in TWI. Those of us who were rank and file were expected to hold to the ethical standards of Christianity at all times. However even though they professed that they did the same thing, top leadership marched to the beat of a different drummer – doing whatever the hell they wanted in private – following the appetites of their moral depravity. See     Matthew 23     on hypocrites in leadership positions...Obviously not something that God wants swept under the carpet.

Jay Adams' big deal was nouthetic counseling.

“Nouthetic counseling (Greek: noutheteo, to admonish) is a form of evangelical Protestant pastoral counseling based solely upon the Bible and focused on Christ. It repudiates mainstream psychology and psychiatry as humanistic, fundamentally opposed to Christianity, and radically secular. Its viewpoint was originally articulated by Jay E. Adams, in Competent to Counsel (1970) and further books, and has led to the formation of a number of organizations and seminary courses promoting it. The viewpoint is opposed to those seeking to synthesize Christianity with secular psychological thought, but has failed to win them over to a purely biblical approach. Since 1993, the movement has renamed itself biblical counseling to emphasize its central focus on the Bible. The Baker Encyclopedia of Psychology and Counseling states that "The aim of Nouthetic Counseling is to effect change in the counselee by encouraging greater conformity to the principles of Scripture…Nouthetic counseling has been criticized as narrowly conceived, with a confrontational focus upon sin and behavior, which fails to deal adequately with emotion, grief, and suffering, and which lacks understanding of complex human motivations.”      From  Wikipedia nouthetic counseling     

== == == == 

Biblical counseling has always held my interest – even after leaving TWI. I have continued to study and read up on the subject since I try to apply certain principles in my own life (through reflection, self-examination) and being empathetic…a good listener…provide honest feedback and support…and mainly to just be a good friend to all who cross my path. I think one of the biggest drawbacks of nouthetic counseling – is that it is not a complete set of tools for dealing with the human condition. As the criticism in Wikipedia mentioned –  it does not really acknowledge nor competently handle the emotions, grief, suffering, and motivations of the people being counseled; furthermore the Jay Adams’ strain of nouthetic counseling (as well as some other groups, like TWI) shun the disciplines of secular psychology/psychiatry and the use of medications for mental illness …I lean more toward an integration of the Bible and psychology – I tend to think there is some common ground and I also have a lot of respect for the work of mental health professionals and the medications used to treat mental illnesses   - btw, concerning integration see     Wikipedia - Christian counseling  …of course, this is all just my opinion and I could be wrong.

== == == ==

Hey, I was wondering - and I hope it's not rude to ask -

What did you do in TWI? Corps? WOW? Leadership roles?

Why did you leave TWI?

What do you do now – fellowship wise?

 

 

peace

T-Bone out

Edited by T-Bone
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