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4 hours ago, Stayed Too Long said:

There was a Thriteenth Amendment passed and a civil war fought over a 150 years ago to correct the horrible injustice. In 1964 the Civil Rights Voting Act was also passed.

The Bible Canon was established by the Catholic Church over a thousand years ago, I think.  You could view the whole thing as a progression of ideas, beginning long before the canon, that lead to how we all currently think, whether we like it or not.  Being written by humans, it's going to have hiccups.  But an honest interpretation of people is of a flawed creature.  Perfection being the pursuit of ideals.  God and Jesus being personification of those abstracts.

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On 5/23/2022 at 3:05 AM, Mark Sanguinetti said:

God made up for any worldly injustice to his Son Jesus Christ by raising Him from the dead, while letting Jesus walk around on earth for a number of days. In addition, allowing Jesus Christ to have a new spiritual body so that He can do the spiritual equivalent of flying to heaven to be on the right side of God His Father. I do NOT think their will be any argument between God and Jesus Christ because God has now delegated ALL authority under Jesus Christ His Son for the salvation of humanity. And in the future death will be destroyed with all under Jesus Christ the Son of God. Then Jesus Christ will turn this authority back to God His Father so that God can or may be all in all. This is read in I Corinthians 15:20-28. 

Well said!    I would only add that Jesus accepted all the pain and suffering willingly.   What does that mean?   It means, he was at least partially responsible for it all happening.   As to why it all had to happen this way, is beyond my comprehension.   I believe one day will find out why!  

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Posted (edited)

Hi Oldiesman:  How is your state of New York, which I often pronounce with an English accent as Noo Yawk. Hopefully, I was successful in getting you to laugh. As I write or text in my biblical teaching book a number of times. God did not make humanity as a puppet on a string with God controlling everything that we think and do. God simply gives humanity the free will ability to do different things with God not controlling everything that we think and do. Yes, God can and does help humanity, but if people are unfairly treated by other people and allowed to do this. God will make up for this unfair treatment with the future judgement of humanity. Some of this future judgement is covered in Revelation chapters 20, 21 and 22 and I explain these figurative book of Revelation bible chapters in the last two chapters of my biblical teaching book, "Our Loving Savior Jesus Christ":
https://christianreconciliation.net/book-oursaviorjesuschrist.html
 

Edited by Mark Sanguinetti
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15 hours ago, oldiesman said:

Well said!    I would only add that Jesus accepted all the pain and suffering willingly.   What does that mean?   It means, he was at least partially responsible for it all happening.  

Wow!! Now God’s perfect son, Jesus Christ, was all along part of the problem. He must have been doing some sinning on the side? When? Was it during those  lost years from his age 12 to 30? 
Please fill us in why JC was also responsible for himself needing to die?

 

 

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Maybe you're not familiar with the opportunity cost of money?  Wayworld's debt policy was silly.  Anyway sacrifice is everywhere when you think about it.

So is death.  Everything dies.  No exceptions.

Before, during and after the Jesus story people were very aware of that.

 

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On 6/3/2022 at 12:30 AM, Nathan_Jr said:

It must be true. 
Why? 
Because he said so.
Who said? 
The doctor, the reverend, the authority said. 
Why is he an authority? 
Because he himself said so about himself. 
Well, then. It must be true if he says it's true. After all, he's the authority according to himself. Victor said it, I believe it, that settles it.

This is stupidity. 

Authority is not a good enough reason to BELEEEVE. Questioning authority is not anarchy. 

The example used here is Victor.  Victim won't question Victor because quoting Victor gives Victim victories in the context Victor's fantasy world.  There's a mutual benefit there.  The currency here, is yes, believing.  

 

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32 minutes ago, Bolshevik said:

The example used here is Victor.  Victim won't question Victor because quoting Victor gives Victim victories in the context Victor's fantasy world.  There's a mutual benefit there.  The currency here, is yes, believing.  

 

Alliteration. The secret code to the collaterals. It's a figure. 

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20 minutes ago, Nathan_Jr said:

Alliteration. The secret code to the collaterals. It's a figure. 

Gnostic gnomes know that they know, in short and to the point.

Victor was no authority.  He sold Power.  It is a great principle.

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1 minute ago, Bolshevik said:

Gnostic gnomes know that they know, in short and to the point.

Victor was no authority.  He sold Power.  It is a great principle.

It seems to me he sold lies to bolster his power. A distinction. BELIEF in the lies legitimized the power, resulting in a counterfeit authority. To your point, belief is the currency.

And the accusative case when crossing out just won't do. 

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10 minutes ago, Nathan_Jr said:

It seems to me he sold lies to bolster his power. A distinction. BELIEF in the lies legitimized the power, resulting in a counterfeit authority. To your point, belief is the currency.

And the accusative case when crossing out just won't do. 

His class was PFAL.

LFAL wouldn't do.  

Acceptance of lies, sign on the line, in exchange for piece on the monopoly board.

 

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Posted (edited)

Mark said: “God did not make humanity as a puppet on a string with God controlling everything that we think and do. God simply gives humanity the free will ability to do different things with God not controlling everything that we think and do.”

Does this mean after the second coming that God will create puppets on a string so that everything will be perfect? Mankind will not have the ability to go against God’s will?

Edited by Stayed Too Long
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2 hours ago, Stayed Too Long said:

. . . 

Does this mean after the second coming that God will create puppets on a string so that everything will be perfect? Mankind will not have the ability to go against God’s will?

You mean marionette.  Remember how Pinocchio gave up his freedom by giving up an apple from his father? He ended up singing and dancing about how he had no strings.

 

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3 hours ago, Stayed Too Long said:

Does this mean after the second coming that God will create puppets on a string so that everything will be perfect? Mankind will not have the ability to go against God’s will?

NO!

https://christianreconciliation.net/book-oursaviorjesuschrist.html
From the last part of the final chapter of my biblical teaching book is the following to help educate people with clearly quoted scriptures. 

    Next, we have verses which show the free will of humanity. The choice being given to humanity of doing good or not doing good. In a favorable way, I see this as the followers of Jesus Christ being persuaded in heart to fully follow Christ. This starts with learning about Jesus Christ in a favorable positive way and believing in Jesus Christ as Lord.

Revelation 22:10-11
10 And he saith unto me, Seal not up the words of the prophecy of this book; for the time is at hand.  11 He that is unrighteous, let him do unrighteousness still: and he that is filthy (ruparos), let him be made filthy still: and he that is righteous, let him do righteousness still: and he that is holy, let him be made holy still.  (ASV)

    The Greek word for filthy is “ruparos”, while literally involving dirty clothing. This is clearly seen in the only other usage for this Greek word in the New Testament in James 2:2. Also according to the Thayer’s Greek Lexicon this means: “filthy, dirty: properly of clothing”. Yes, clothing can be cleaned with the help of a washing machine or hand cleaned with water and cleaning ointment. Revelation 22:11 represents spiritual uncleanness, with unrighteous acts. Next, we have more symbolic language of those who wash their robes. This shows that those who change from bad to good through Jesus Christ will be able to enter in through the gates into the city. Outside of what he thought as the New Jerusalem, John still saw those who were bad with him comparing them to dogs. Dogs are seen favorably today, but during the first century before dogs were trained to be good, dogs were symbolically seen as bad. Just like dogs have been trained today to be good in nations like the United States. In the future under Jesus Christ more and more of humanity will be retrained to be good and followers of Christ. Then and only then will they be able to enter in through the gates into the city that represents the savior Jesus Christ. This can be read in Revelation 21:24-26. Even nations or a large amount of people will be able to see the glory of God and the Lamb who is Jesus Christ. 

Revelation 22:14-15
14 Blessed are they that wash their robes in the blood of the Lamb: that they may have a right to the tree of life, and may enter in by the gates into the city.  15 Without are dogs, and sorcerers, and unchaste, and murderers, and servers of idols, and every one that loveth and maketh a lie.  (Douay-Rheims)

    What John saw was the free will ability to do good or not do good. In order to go through the gates into the city of salvation with eternal life, being a follower of Jesus Christ is required. Jesus Christ as savior is symbolically seen when humanity washes their robes or clothing with the blood of Christ as the Lamb of God. Certainly, blood is not used for washing and cleaning. This represents Jesus’ earthly life and death for the payment of the sin nature of humanity. Then God raised Jesus Christ from the dead so that all people who believe and follow his Son may have eternal life in the future “new heaven and a new earth” (KJV, Revelation 21:1). People that are bad and evil will or would need to make a major change. However, Paul also named Saul from his Jewish heritage, made a very large change from being hateful while perhaps being the main persecutor of the followers of Jesus Christ to being the main and most informative teacher of the New Testament. Paul saw the change that Jesus Christ could make with all of humanity. Even the ones like he was before he became a follower of Jesus Christ.

Edited by Mark Sanguinetti
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5 hours ago, Stayed Too Long said:

Mark said: “God did not make humanity as a puppet on a string with God controlling everything that we think and do. God simply gives humanity the free will ability to do different things with God not controlling everything that we think and do.”

Does this mean after the second coming that God will create puppets on a string so that everything will be perfect? Mankind will not have the ability to go against God’s will?

The way it was once described to me by a devout Catholic is that in heaven "the beatific vision" man will not want or need to stray from God because man will be in complete and total harmony with God.  There's nothing else in life to want or need man has reached perfection.    Here's the definition from wikipedia:   In Christian theology, the beatific vision (Latin: visio beatifica) is the ultimate direct self-communication of God to the individual person. A person possessing the beatific vision reaches, as a member of redeemed humanity in the communion of saints, perfect salvation in its entirety, i.e. heaven.   

I cannot explain why or how this can happen, its beyond my comprehension.   Its beyond me how we can have free will and not stray from God at the same time.   I believe we will find out!

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9 hours ago, Stayed Too Long said:

Does this mean after the second coming that God will create puppets on a string so that everything will be perfect? Mankind will not have the ability to go against God’s will?

Seriously? I can't believe you actually think that could happen.

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The Way called it the "already renewed mind" . . . Or something that sounded like that.  Yes it sounded like you were trapped in a TWIG-face for eternity.

So that can't be a new concept.  

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43 minutes ago, Rocky said:

Seriously? I can't believe you actually think that could happen.

What is your concern? How is that after the return their will be no sin? Apparently the saved people will not be able to sin? Or if it is possible to sin, how is that absolutely no one will be to sin?

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3 hours ago, Stayed Too Long said:

What is your concern? How is that after the return their will be no sin? Apparently the saved people will not be able to sin? Or if it is possible to sin, how is that absolutely no one will be to sin?

Well, it's ALL a story or a bunch of stories. Humanity is all about stories. But I don't see God making everybody automatons. :wink2:

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8 hours ago, Rocky said:

Well, it's ALL a story or a bunch of stories. Humanity is all about stories. But I don't see God making everybody automatons. :wink2:

Or Narratives?

Personal Narratives.

Cultural Narratives.

Political Narratives.

Probably missing a few.  Layers upon layers of Narratives.  Do they work in harmony or do they compete?  Do we always recognize the larger and smaller Narratives in every discussion and interaction?

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5 hours ago, Bolshevik said:

Or Narratives?

Personal Narratives.

Cultural Narratives.

Political Narratives.

Probably missing a few.  Layers upon layers of Narratives.  Do they work in harmony or do they compete?  Do we always recognize the larger and smaller Narratives in every discussion and interaction?

Stories vs Narratives indeed they are related but not identical.

In his presentation, Hagel notes the power of stories for engaging audiences, but says they have limited power because of their closed-ended nature. They have a beginning, middle and end. Once a story resolves, it is more or less over. It is also more about the people in the story than about the listener. It can be retold and serve as an example, but beyond that there is limited opportunity for members of an audience to engage it.

Narratives are different, Hagel says, for two reasons. First, they are open-ended—they do not have a resolution. Second, they have an implicit “invitation to participate,” which allows listeners to play a role in what the outcome is going to be. “There is something that is in the process of unfolding. The end is yet to be determined. And…there is an invitation for all of us to participate in that narrative, to help determine what the outcome is going to be,” he says.

Hagel goes on to say that narratives operate at personal, institutional, and social levels. Examples of social narratives he gives are Christianity and the American narrative, which motivate “incredible action” over time.

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1 hour ago, Rocky said:

Stories vs Narratives indeed they are related but not identical.

In his presentation, Hagel notes the power of stories for engaging audiences, but says they have limited power because of their closed-ended nature. They have a beginning, middle and end. Once a story resolves, it is more or less over. It is also more about the people in the story than about the listener. It can be retold and serve as an example, but beyond that there is limited opportunity for members of an audience to engage it.

Narratives are different, Hagel says, for two reasons. First, they are open-ended—they do not have a resolution. Second, they have an implicit “invitation to participate,” which allows listeners to play a role in what the outcome is going to be. “There is something that is in the process of unfolding. The end is yet to be determined. And…there is an invitation for all of us to participate in that narrative, to help determine what the outcome is going to be,” he says.

Hagel goes on to say that narratives operate at personal, institutional, and social levels. Examples of social narratives he gives are Christianity and the American narrative, which motivate “incredible action” over time.

. . .

Thank you Rocky for this information.

Edited by Bolshevik
I was thinking of Hegel
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17 hours ago, Rocky said:

Well, it's ALL a story or a bunch of stories. Humanity is all about stories.

This is important to understand. Joseph Campbell is an excellent pointer for this idea.

 

2 hours ago, Rocky said:

Stories vs Narratives indeed they are related but not identical.

In his presentation, Hagel notes the power of stories for engaging audiences, but says they have limited power because of their closed-ended nature. They have a beginning, middle and end. Once a story resolves, it is more or less over. It is also more about the people in the story than about the listener. It can be retold and serve as an example, but beyond that there is limited opportunity for members of an audience to engage it.

Narratives are different, Hagel says, for two reasons. First, they are open-ended—they do not have a resolution. Second, they have an implicit “invitation to participate,” which allows listeners to play a role in what the outcome is going to be. “There is something that is in the process of unfolding. The end is yet to be determined. And…there is an invitation for all of us to participate in that narrative, to help determine what the outcome is going to be,” he says.

Hagel goes on to say that narratives operate at personal, institutional, and social levels. Examples of social narratives he gives are Christianity and the American narrative, which motivate “incredible action” over time.

Thanks, Rocky. Your contributions are always meaningful and contemplative, at least for me. This is all so important so understand. 

It seems to me awareness that narratives are crafted to develop meaning is important. One might (ought to) ask: Whose narrative? Is there an agenda? What images of ourselves and others must we create to accept or advance a narrative? Why are we creating these images? Do we have freedom of mind to look at ourselves and to see that we are conditioned, programmed, indoctrinated?

Narrative can be a useful device. It can also manufacture and advance error. Can we first just observe before BELIEVING?

Edited by Nathan_Jr
Ordained by an engraved bracelet
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42 minutes ago, Nathan_Jr said:

This is important to understand. Joseph Campbell is an excellent pointer for this idea.

 

Thanks, Rocky. Your contributions are always meaningful and contemplative, at least for me. This is all so important so understand. 

It seems to me awareness that narratives are crafted to develop meaning is important. One might (ought to) ask: Whose narrative? Is there an agenda? What images of ourselves and others must we create to accept or advance a narrative? Why are we creating these images? Do we have freedom of mind to look at ourselves and to see that we are conditioned, programmed, indoctrinated?

Narrative can be a useful device. It can also manufacture and advance error. Can we first just observe before BELIEVING?

I think the crafting, while possible, are only a part of the um, story.

There are always forces outside of consciousness.  We are not blank slates.  Our curiosity is not chosen. 

I see narratives as generally naturally occurring.   

Tribes 100,000 years ago likely had narratives.  It's just survival.

What else bonds a group of self aware entities?  What guides the internal world of beings with numerous competing passions?  A narrative is order.

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14 minutes ago, Bolshevik said:

I think the crafting, while possible, are only a part of the um, story.

There are always forces outside of consciousness.  We are not blank slates.  Our curiosity is not chosen. 

I see narratives as generally naturally occurring.   

Tribes 100,000 years ago likely had narratives.  It's just survival.

What else bonds a group of self aware entities?  What guides the internal world of beings with numerous competing passions?  A narrative is order.

"Narratives operate at three levels in parallel: the individual, the institution and the social unit. By understanding this and crafting narratives that operate at all three levels, it is possible to amplify impact." - From the Tweet about Hagel's presentation.

Sure, tribes have had stories and narratives for 100,000 years in an effort to explain  the unexplainable, to offer meaning, to entertain, to persuade....

Narrative can certainly bring order. The Taliban achieve bonding and order through its narrative. That is one of the results of narrative. One of the main purposes of narrative, according to this article, is persuasion.

 

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23 minutes ago, Nathan_Jr said:

"Narratives operate at three levels in parallel: the individual, the institution and the social unit. By understanding this and crafting narratives that operate at all three levels, it is possible to amplify impact." - From the Tweet about Hagel's presentation.

Sure, tribes have had stories and narratives for 100,000 years in an effort to explain  the unexplainable, to offer meaning, to entertain, to persuade....

Narrative can certainly bring order. The Taliban achieve bonding and order through its narrative. That is one of the results of narrative. One of the main purposes of narrative, according to this article, is persuasion.

 

I gather there's a top down view of how narratives are derived . . . which seems to be out of concern of tyrannical control . .  Or to sell product.

But a bottom up view . . . I think narratives have a little more utility than as a toy.

 

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