New Testament Canon

[T-Bone]

On 10/17/2022 at 7:29 PM, Nathan_Jr said:

Canon New Oxford American Dictionary

noun

A collection or list of sacred books accepted as genuine

• the works of a particular author or artist that are recognized as genuine.
• the list of works considered to be permanently established as being of the highest quality

 

Canon Cambridge Dictionary 

noun

The writings or other works that are generally agreed to be good, important, and worth studying.

 

Canon Merriam-Webster Dictionary

noun

a: an authoritative list of books accepted as Holy Scripture

b: the authentic works of a writer

c: a sanctioned or accepted group or body of related works

Canon New Oxford American Dictionary

noun

A collection or list of sacred books accepted as genuine

• the works of a particular author or artist that are recognized as genuine.
• the list of works considered to be permanently established as being of the highest quality

 

Canon Cambridge Dictionary 

noun

The writings or other works that are generally agreed to be good, important, and worth studying.

 

Canon Merriam-Webster Dictionary

noun

a: an authoritative list of books accepted as Holy Scripture

b: the authentic works of a writer

c: a sanctioned or accepted group or body of related works

 

must be an echo in here

 

Edited October 25, 2022 by T-Bone
hello...hello...is there an echo?...is there an echo

[Nathan_Jr]

Paul said don't even eat with people like victor. That, according to to/for hyperdispensationalism, is a directive to (T-O) gentile beleevers.

[Nathan_Jr]

4 minutes ago, T-Bone said:

must be an echo in here

Not only that, it's getting cold in here. Got a bookcase I can wear?

[T-Bone]

10 minutes ago, Nathan_Jr said:

Not only that, it's getting cold in here. Got a bookcase I can wear?

Sorry – the only one I know of is being used right now…hey all, try to keep it down okay

 

[fredgrant]

2 hours ago, Mike said:

Not God as I understood Him from the Bible, either. …initially

But as I studied the Bible over the decades my understanding of God has changed some.

When I first opened up the Bible in the early 1970s I was 22 years old.  By that age I had absorbed churchy and cultural impressions as to what Bible teachers should be like. I envisioned Jesus-like characters could be the only ones God could entrust with big jobs. 

That’s how we humans must do it, I figured, when we hire out jobs to people. We want to examine a candidate’s past record, and see that they have been good, and thus predict that in the future they will probably be good for the job.

So this early innocent impression of how things worked in the Bible was a deep expectation, as I started reading the Bible. But soon this expectation was challenged some, as I read in Genesis.  I noticed right away that the story of Noah seemed to have some rather odd post-Flood scenes with Noah’s family that had to be censored out of the children’s Sunday School version… I guess. One clear thing is that Noah got drunk.   

Reading along the challenges got greater as I read about young Abraham involved in some kind of crazy wife-swapping protection scheme, but was stopped by the pagan Pharoah, who knew better. 

Later, Abraham had a child with Hagar, with Sarah’s approval?   I also seem to remember him having concubines.  The children’s Bible stories never had these parts in them, did they?

It doesn’t stop there. My whole notion of who God could entrust big jobs to was constantly challenged in Genesis. I think we can skip Abraham’s son Isaac, after reading somewhere he had no concubines. But the grandson, Jacob, was a doozy!  His name, before God changed it, meant “con artist” and he stole his brother’s birthright…  with God’s approval???  He also had at least 4 wives, and maybe a concubine.  I wonder how Sunday School teachers define “concubine” for the pre-pubescent children?

Past the book of Genesis, the stories still are challenging to me.

I marvel at God’s forgiveness of our future sins.  Why doesn’t anyone ever talk about this? Look at all those revelations and miracles He gave to young David, fully foreknowing that in mid-life crisis David would resort to murdering his best friend.

And how did God’s people receive the Psalms of David?  Were the relatives of Uriah satisfied with David’s public repenting?  Do you think that Bathsheba was David’s first “mistake,” or did he gradually work his way up to having sex with his best friend’s wife? Life experiences tell me it was the latter.

And I did not realize the extent of Solomon’s late-life corruption until recent decades.

What was the time-line of his life like? How deep into his concubines and their idols could he get, and still be able to pen God-breathed scriptures?  I don’t know. It just blows my mind that God would give young Solomon all those revelations, but know in His foreknowledge that old Solomon would get totally corrupt… or nearly totally?

Then there is that beautiful prophesy that came to Balaam, who was crookeder than a dog’s hind legs. Why did God entrust such wonderful words to him?

John the Baptist was a real weirdo, yet the greatest prophet?

Peter was pretty impetuous and had a violent temper, and pretty forgetful at times. 

Paul was a murdering de-programmer, and God entrusted a lot to him.

I guess God’s  criteria for selecting His big job workers is a lot different than the criteria we must use in selecting our Sunday School teachers.

Why is this?  Because we can only look at the past actions of a person, and we know nothing of their future actions, and we know nothing of their heart. But God does know a person’s future actions, and He does know their hearts. 

I guess God is far more interested in getting His big jobs accomplished, and less interested in conforming to our limited ways of judging candidates for a job.

Well if you look at the records in the Bible that Mike is talking about, it is obvious that he is right about one thing - God often uses imperfect men to do big jobs for Him, in fact not only often, but ALWAYS except for in the case of Jesus.  That being said, the issue is did God select VPW as a big job worker?  Because the focus of the Way International was POWER, and not the cross of Christ, his impact was quite distorted from the gospel that the New Testament canon puts forth.  It was a grand case of 'cherry picking' scriptures to assemble a cistern to imprison human beings in.

That being said, I do not believe it was VPs intention to mislead about the Word.  I think he was mostly just mislead himself and it snowballed into something bigger than himself, eventually dragging him along for the ride.....just thinking out loud.

[So_crates]

2 hours ago, Mike said:

Not God as I understood Him from the Bible, either. …initially

But as I studied the Bible over the decades my understanding of God has changed some.

When I first opened up the Bible in the early 1970s I was 22 years old.  By that age I had absorbed churchy and cultural impressions as to what Bible teachers should be like. I envisioned Jesus-like characters could be the only ones God could entrust with big jobs. 

That’s how we humans must do it, I figured, when we hire out jobs to people. We want to examine a candidate’s past record, and see that they have been good, and thus predict that in the future they will probably be good for the job.

So this early innocent impression of how things worked in the Bible was a deep expectation, as I started reading the Bible. But soon this expectation was challenged some, as I read in Genesis.  I noticed right away that the story of Noah seemed to have some rather odd post-Flood scenes with Noah’s family that had to be censored out of the children’s Sunday School version… I guess. One clear thing is that Noah got drunk.   

Reading along the challenges got greater as I read about young Abraham involved in some kind of crazy wife-swapping protection scheme, but was stopped by the pagan Pharoah, who knew better. 

Later, Abraham had a child with Hagar, with Sarah’s approval?   I also seem to remember him having concubines.  The children’s Bible stories never had these parts in them, did they?

It doesn’t stop there. My whole notion of who God could entrust big jobs to was constantly challenged in Genesis. I think we can skip Abraham’s son Isaac, after reading somewhere he had no concubines. But the grandson, Jacob, was a doozy!  His name, before God changed it, meant “con artist” and he stole his brother’s birthright…  with God’s approval???  He also had at least 4 wives, and maybe a concubine.  I wonder how Sunday School teachers define “concubine” for the pre-pubescent children?

Past the book of Genesis, the stories still are challenging to me.

I marvel at God’s forgiveness of our future sins.  Why doesn’t anyone ever talk about this? Look at all those revelations and miracles He gave to young David, fully foreknowing that in mid-life crisis David would resort to murdering his best friend.

And how did God’s people receive the Psalms of David?  Were the relatives of Uriah satisfied with David’s public repenting?  Do you think that Bathsheba was David’s first “mistake,” or did he gradually work his way up to having sex with his best friend’s wife? Life experiences tell me it was the latter.

And I did not realize the extent of Solomon’s late-life corruption until recent decades.

What was the time-line of his life like? How deep into his concubines and their idols could he get, and still be able to pen God-breathed scriptures?  I don’t know. It just blows my mind that God would give young Solomon all those revelations, but know in His foreknowledge that old Solomon would get totally corrupt… or nearly totally?

Then there is that beautiful prophesy that came to Balaam, who was crookeder than a dog’s hind legs. Why did God entrust such wonderful words to him?

John the Baptist was a real weirdo, yet the greatest prophet?

Peter was pretty impetuous and had a violent temper, and pretty forgetful at times. 

Paul was a murdering de-programmer, and God entrusted a lot to him.

I guess God’s  criteria for selecting His big job workers is a lot different than the criteria we must use in selecting our Sunday School teachers.

Why is this?  Because we can only look at the past actions of a person, and we know nothing of their future actions, and we know nothing of their heart. But God does know a person’s future actions, and He does know their hearts. 

I guess God is far more interested in getting His big jobs accomplished, and less interested in conforming to our limited ways of judging candidates for a job.

So then, once again, why bother with the bible? Why not get born again and do as we damn please? Then, according to you, we'll join the ranks of those listed above and God may give us some of His big jobs, right?

Edited October 25, 2022 by So_crates

[T-Bone]

[T-Bone]

[fredgrant]

20 minutes ago, So_crates said:

So then, once again, why bother with the bible? Why not get born again and do as we damn please? Then, according to you, we'll join the ranks of those listed above and God may give us some of His big jobs, right?

Well as the Bible says, the love of God IS keeping His commandments, so the only reason to do the right thing is because you love God and it's the right thing to do.  I don't always succeed, but it is because sometimes I am still a slave to the flesh Rom. 7.  God tells us about our lives to help us to a more worthy endeavor.

[T-Bone]

[T-Bone]

[Nathan_Jr]

6 minutes ago, T-Bone said:

 

5 minutes ago, T-Bone said:

 

1 minute ago, T-Bone said:

uh-oh

[T-Bone]

and in other news

[Nathan_Jr]

2 minutes ago, T-Bone said:

This is tagged as a "traditional attribution." Does that imply another attribution? Is this the only chart?

It shows Revelation attributed to John of Zebedee. That's why I ask.

[T-Bone]

5 minutes ago, Nathan_Jr said:

uh-oh

what ? I'm either a party pooper or OCD

[Nathan_Jr]

1 minute ago, T-Bone said:

and in other news

And this is where there's lots of variation. Depends on which church in which part of the world.

[Nathan_Jr]

4 minutes ago, T-Bone said:

what ? I'm either a party pooper or OCD

I think you're misinterpreting me. I'm not writing to (T-O) or for (F-O-R) you.

Edited October 25, 2022 by Nathan_Jr
If I have to explain, the joke will be ruined. Just know the joke is not on you.

[So_crates]

8 minutes ago, fredgrant said:

Well as the Bible says, the love of God IS keeping His commandments, so the only reason to do the right thing is because you love God and it's the right thing to do.  I don't always succeed, but it is because sometimes I am still a slave to the flesh Rom. 7.  God tells us about our lives to help us to a more worthy endeavor.

So you're telling me Saint Vic didn't  love God, right?

Yet, according to Mike, God entrusted him with the most important revelation since the bible itself.

[T-Bone]

8 minutes ago, Nathan_Jr said:

I think you're misinterpreting me. I'm not writing to (T-O) or for (F-O-R) you.

ok - never mind - I thought you were suggesting   the devil ate the apostle's homework

[T-Bone]

[fredgrant]

15 minutes ago, So_crates said:

So you're telling me Saint Vic didn't  love God, right?

Yet, according to Mike, God entrusted him with the most important revelation since the bible itself.

its ok if you don't get Mike to say he's wrong. Really, it is. Try to let it go.

[Nathan_Jr]

6 minutes ago, T-Bone said:

I was just listening to a lecture on this word, apocrypha. I'll try to renew my mind after giving this broad some quaaludes, and see if I can't find it. The meaning is different depending on Old or New Testament. Or else canonical or non-canonized.... looking...

Edited October 25, 2022 by Nathan_Jr

[T-Bone]

4 minutes ago, Nathan_Jr said:

I was just listening to a lecture on this word, apocrypha. I'll try to renew my mind after giving this broad some quaaludes, and see if I can't find it. The meaning is different depending on Old or New Teatament.

I remember some dirty old man telling us anything you do to others in love is okay...oh wait - or was that, love anything you do to others...

[Nathan_Jr]

1 minute ago, T-Bone said:

I remember some dirty old man telling us anything you do to others in love is okay...oh wait - or was that, love anything you do to others...

I learned where I could - Bill Cosby, Harvey Weinstein, victor paul wierwille.... It was putting it all together so that it fit like a glove in the OJ Simpson trial. THAT'S the original work.

[Mike]

3 hours ago, waysider said:

I'm curious what you make of this:

 

A bishop then must be blameless, the husband of one wife, vigilant, sober, of good behaviour, given to hospitality, apt to teach...I Timothy 3:2

I addressed that very idea in my post. First reference starts in the sentence  #4:
 

Not God as I understood Him from the Bible, either. …initially

But as I studied the Bible over the decades my understanding of God has changed some.

When I first opened up the Bible in the early 1970s I was 22 years old.  By that age I had absorbed churchy and cultural impressions as to what Bible teachers should be like. I envisioned Jesus-like characters could be the only ones God could entrust with big jobs. 

That’s how we humans must do it, I figured, when we hire out jobs to people. We want to examine a candidate’s past record, and see that they have been good, and thus predict that in the future they will probably be good for the job.

...

The second time I bring up this idea is 3 times, at the end:

...I guess God’s  criteria for selecting His big job workers is a lot different than the criteria we must use in selecting our Sunday School teachers.

Why is this?  Because we can only look at the past actions of a person, and we know nothing of their future actions, and we know nothing of their heart. But God does know a person’s future actions, and He does know their hearts. 

I guess God is far more interested in getting His big jobs accomplished, and less interested in conforming to our limited ways of judging candidates for a job.

Edited October 25, 2022 by Mike