I heard that sentence "cancer is a devil spirit" in the early 70s, and asked it that was taught in the AC. The answer to me was "yes" however it was followed by much more detail that I did not yet understand.
Mike: I heard that sentence "cancer is a devil spirit" in the early 70s, and asked it that was taught in the AC. The answer to me was "yes" however it was followed by much more detail that I did not yet understand.
Me: If you didn't understand the detail how can you be sure Saint Vic didn't teach it?
42 minutes ago, Mike said:
I have never even once heard or read VPW teach anything on cancer and spirits. Not once !
Just because you didn't hear Saint Vic teach cancer is a devil spirit doesn't mean he didn't.
Didn't you claim a few threads ago that Saint Vic didn't claim that the class taught prosperity?
42 minutes ago, Mike said:
No one here ever reported any detail on this, besides the oversimplified sentence above.
Mike: No one here ever reported any detail on this, besides the oversimplified sentence above.
Me: Contradict yourself much? First your saying there were details you didn't understand and now your saying the sentence was oversimplified.
42 minutes ago, Mike said:
I had heard that it was in an early AC, but all my searches turned up nothing... so far. There is one more AC to check, but it needs mp3 to text conversion
And, naturally, those three classes were every Advanced Class there was. What if the statement was made in one of the classes you don't have?
The teaching of cancer as devil spirit causes great cognitive dissonance for anyone standing on the shoulders of victor paul wierwille, American quack, because irony.
I have never even once heard or read VPW teach anything on cancer and spirits. Not once
I'm surprised you haven't. Below are post by people that have. This is from the first 20 of 86 pages in search. Many of the post had nothing to do with the topic at hand.
On 7/22/2021 at 5:39 AM, skyrider said:
Lest we forget how profound advanced class teachings were......."Cancer is a devil spirit." Wierwille taught this in his advanced classes. Wierwille dies of cancer. Need I say more?
The contradictions, the insanity......of groupthink.
“Insanity in individuals is something rare — but in groups, parties, nations, and epochs it is the rule.” Fredrich Nietzsche
On 6/6/2021 at 9:38 AM, skyrider said:
Wierwille's "ministry" and legacy is in the trash bin of history. For 20 years, GSC has shown the evil face behind its mask.
Labeling the stolen class [from Rev. B.G. Leonard] as "Power for Abundant Living"........was a marketing ploy. Wierwille was a thief and had to take his stolen goods to a *chop shop* to strip and alter the vehicle to something else.......to disguise the theft. He used deception with ease, without guilt or shame.
Labeling his church building "The Way Biblical Research and Teaching Center" did NOT make it so. With each passing year, he strayed more into private interpretation as he added *Advanced Studies Classes* to generate a system of indoctrination. Cash flow, baby...... I contend that wierwille's narcissist ambitions were to establish a dependency on twi.......not on Christ Jesus, the mediator between God and man. Wierwille's aim was focused on the subjugation of his followers!!!
These past 20 years, hundreds of GSC threads have exposed Wierwille's revisionist history. Of course, wierwille boasted and expounded profusely during those corps night owl meetings when he was liquored up with plenty of Drambuie, his favorite drink. He detailed accounts of hearing an audible voice from God, snow on the gas pumps, studying into the wee hours of the morning for 12 years to unearth the truths of the Scriptures, etc. etc. And, the Wierwille German family history was broadcasted loud and proud time and again......even Mrs. Wierwille's book spends ample time on this to tweak the indoctrination message of "The Way, Inc." The year 1982, the designated year of wierwille's retirement (after 40 years of his ministry work --- cough, cough)........was when Wierwille's narcissism and boasting came center stage. Hours and hours of detailing the wierwille family history at "Living Victoriously." Wine glasses with the wierwille crest were sold in the Way's bookstore. Little wierwille statues could be purchased for your desk or home.
The corps training was an indoctrination program. The corps were sent forth with marching orders to run classes.......i.e. subjugate followers. Every cog in the machine was geared for followship........not fellowship. Even to this day, there are indoctrinated ex-corps who have NOT connected the dots of wierwille's deception. They are devotees/idolaters who spout the cult-clap cliches and buzzwords that we all heard thousands of times. Corps who endeavored to research Scripture that was outside the boundaries of wierwille's system were slapped back into line, or black-listed. Heck, even Schoenheit's research on "Adultery is a Sin" was deep-sixed by Walter Cummings, the Research Department Head Coordinator. In fact, you'd get pozzezzed just reading it.......what a sh!t-show accusation. Backed by Geer, Finnegan, Townsend, others? Nobody could challenge this?
Wierwille died of cancer. Does twi go back and examine wierwille's teachings at the Advanced Classes that CANCER IS A DEVIL SPIRIT? Nope. Silence. You are not allowed to challenge wierwille's teachings. You are NOT allowed to disagree with the way cult.
If you dissent, then they "mark and avoid" you. The Scientologists call it "disconnect." The Amish consider it "shunning."
A journey that may have started as biblical research for some........morphed into twi-indoctrination. The errors/deception in doctrine led to errors/deception in practice. Mandates were established to instill subservience:
Foundational books only sold to PFAL grads. In-house bookstore. Indoctrination marketing.
Series of classes build on twi-doctrine....ie. Renewed Mind. Why in the past tense? Scripture says "renewing of the mind"....
Cancer is a devil spirit. Wierwille died of cancer. Did wierwille die possessed of a devil spirit? Or, was wierwille wrong?
No debt-policy. For 26 years, twi had a mandated policy of no debt for certain classes, leadership positions. What changed?
No pregnancy policy. Corps grads were mandated to NOT get pregnant....or released from employment. Why?
No homosexuals allowed......yet, Rosalie had two lesbians living in her basement. No one could call her out on it?
Two-by-two policy. Who enforced this policy? Was Donna allowed to go shopping by herself? LOL
Founders Hall mandates. Off-grounds leniency. Two-tier system benefits some and not others.
Subjugation. Indoctrination. Subservience. It's around every corner at The Way International.
And now, Donna is the CEO of The Way International........when every rule and mandate that wierwille established was that EACH CORPS COUPLE was treated as a unit of one. If the husband screwed up, both husband and wife were dropped from active corps [DFAC]. If the wife was "off the Word" and rebellious, then the husband was reproved for not leading her correctly and BOTH were dismissed from the corps program. YET, that is not what happened with Donna. She was given special compensation, because of her *close association* with Rosalie. Hypocrisy and complicity.....as the "rulers" have their own set of no accountability. Donna got to lay low for several years and incrementally, and strategically, build her status back to prominence. LOL. See how that works? Rules for thee, but not for SHE.
Indoctrination Central Command is still plugging along.
Welcome to the cult.
On 5/4/2019 at 4:48 PM, waysider said:
I think it was in the Advanced Class that VPW claimed some guy tried to cast out a spirit without having been given revelation to do so. The spirit supposedly smacked the guy silly and laid him out on the floor.The lesson we were supposed to get from this was that you are not supposed to act without guidance to do so.But, of course, you still have the whole deal with VP dying from cancer. You probably recall that he also taught in the Advanced Class that cancer is a devil spirit. So, the guy who we followed because we thought he was the spiritual guru of the entire world was either possessed or (more likely) full of beans on this whole subject of devil spirits and a whole lot of other stuff. And, now we have people like this R&R group who want us to believe them when they perpetuate this regurgitated sort of rubbish.
On 3/21/2015 at 1:22 AM, MRAP said:
Cancer is from ds possession, was that taught in the advanced course? I am being rehtorical. It was best then for me to have stayed on the field and been later ostrised from TWI rather than going deeper. Yeh, advanced class, met alot of grads, like military academy grads, all theory and no ability to execute a mission (don't want to generalize). I do recall that VPW stated that he wished that he would have never taught that course to people since they did nothing with it - I always thought that the AC grads wielded special spiritual capability - if that were so, why was I asked to ..... by a grad, should have been her job. Kind of a round about way to get to this about cancer and ds's but is it possible? Think of the connection of the manifestations and what was Jesus healing, many times removing ds's, just because TWI leaders could not do it, does not mean that ain't the case. This is all just food for thought and probably should be on the doctrinal forum.
On 10/18/2012 at 7:20 AM, OldSkool said:
VP was an idiot. He also said cancer was devil spirit possession and then died of cancer. Alcoholism has no more to do with possession than cancer does.
On 7/20/2011 at 12:47 PM, frank123lol said:
Double standard: We care about you=We want your money.
Truth needs no defense=we(twi)has to approve it.
Cancer is a devil spirit=only if your name is'nt doc vic.
History is important=Again only if it is the way.
Integrity of tghe word=As has been said vic's version.
If the bible is true,it has been around a long time,men and women have come and gone
It will be here after we are gone.Point?It ain't based on one individual unless his name is Jesus
On 6/6/2011 at 3:58 PM, Broken Arrow said:
He taught that cancer was a devil spirit. Not that it was caused by a devil spirit, but that it was, in fact, a devil spirit in itself. So, was Wierwille possessed, or was his teaching wrong? Wait a minute! His teaching can't be wrong since what he taught was the greatest revelation of God's Word since the first century. Wierwille received it from God Himself. So he must have been...no wait! VP was the Man of God and therefore could not have been possessed! So, he was neither possessed and he didn't teach wrongly. Confusing, isn't it? Either way, Wierwille and TWI lose.
I'm not sure if the folks who weren't around while Wierwille walked amongst mortal man can appreciate just how "heavy" this really is. He literally stood up there in front of us and very matter-of-factly talked about how cancer has life in itself and therefore a spirit. He also talked about how disciplined his mind was and that he entertained no thoughts contrary to The Word. He also said repeatedly that God promised to teach him the Word better than it's been know since the First Century if he would teach it to others. Then he died of cancer. The only thing TWI could do was suppress the cause of death. It's public record, though. Anyone can see it for themselves.
On 8/2/2010 at 8:06 PM, dmiller said:
Not sure I'd call it "funny". Perhaps Lying/ Blasphemous/ Down-Right-Hypocritical/ Deceiving/ You-Name-It/ is more applicable.
According to his own teachings, cancer was caused by devil spirits. According to his own teachings, "devil spirits" had to have a "willing host".
According to his own teachings - - "Believing equals receiving". Draw your own conclusions from what he taught, versus his life/ and death.
Docvic died from cancer (according to him) caused by devil spirits in a willing host. Where the H*** was HIS believing?
He died from over indulgence, and lost his eye before fertilizing the daisies. Bright lights from the filming had nothing to do with it.
The line "He gave his eye for the Word" is just plain old unadulterated CR@P. "B" as in "B", and "S" as in "S".
The bright lights at the filming of the class was nothing more than an "excuse", and foisted upon us all as "truth".
It's amazing (well - - not really now that I know, that I know, that I know) how the "wagons got circled around the MOG"
to protect him and the "discrepancies" when someone of that "status" stepped in $h!t too deep to get out.
And then would turn around and castigate "Joe Believer" for not "Living up to the Word".
No, it's not "funny" in the least. Self-serving and deceptive? Yes.
On 6/28/2010 at 4:32 PM, Gen-2 said:
In this regard, OldSkool VPW spent comparably little to make the PFAL Class (The Basis of the con) The Hook was the Green Card promises.
In PFAL Advanced classes, cancer was described as being caused by Devil Spirits as well as it was in the Dealing With the Adversary class. It must have upset the master Con Man when he found he had cancer in his eye.
Talk about kharmic effect. "If you keep doing that you're going to go blind" being a standard cliché for any sexual sin and cancer (which he taught to be caused by devil spirits) being Wierwille's actual cause of death.
But we hear what the Way's carnival barkers all told us, "It cost the MOG his eye...." as though there was no cancer involved. The story was, how "The bright lights from filming the original PFAL Class caused irreparable damage to his eye,...." and then they would add,.....
"What has the Word of God cost you?"
The real question is - What will you provide our Jesus? Some sex, your money, some free labor? will you give enough to ensure the MOGs HOGs and Mini-MOGs and Mini-HOGs can lazily live off of you like leaches? The believe that is their right, yanno? This food chain gets hungrier as you get closer to the HOGFODAT, even when it's not hungry, it wants to eat.
Can't sign up enough new people for WAP, yanno. Why are adults not signing up for the Advanced Class? why? Well send your children then, no matter how young.
At the very BOTTOM LINE,.... The Way wants to be ~ FED ~
Now. Mike, how did you manage to stay out of the loop?
Now. Mike, how did you manage to stay out of the loop?
The same way ALL of you stayed out of the loop on this and many other items: by our old man nature dragging us down to a halt at times.
I believe even the best of us have hardly scratched the surface of learning from the collaterals, and that is why mastering them was in the #1 slot of importance on VPW's Bucket List Teaching.
His final instructions to leaders at the top (and applicable to born again believers) were to come back to PFAL. I finally heeded that instruction for 20 years of weekly study of the collaterals with others and on my own.
I'm still out of the loop, still mastering the collaterals, and still learning much.
I'm still out of the loop on some things due to the lost months and years, but am thankful for how well things have worked out since 1998, when I seriously came back to the collaterals.
I look forward to more years learning what was actually in print, and clarifying more items like this cancer spirit thing.
It was a very reliable source that told me VPW said SOMETHING like "cancer is a spirit" in an early AC. I only have one AC from that time period.
I don't doubt VPW said something like that one sentence, and a lot more supporting sentences to go with it. Someday I may find it, or find someone who took good notes from that class.
What I do doubt heavily are all the accounts here that I have read of that one short sentence. None of them ever have had the supporting sentences that I need to interpret such a sentence or one like it.
*/*/*
Then there is the possibility that VPW made a mistake in that early AC. I am open to that, but not without the supporting sentences. It's all guesswork what he taught on this.
I recently became friends with an old grad who may have info on this. No guarantees.
I don't doubt VPW said something like that one sentence, and a lot more supporting sentences to go with it. Someday I may find it, or find someone who took good notes from that class.
Did you not read what I just posted mere minutes ago?
The same way ALL of you stayed out of the loop on this and many other items: by our old man nature dragging us down to a halt at times.
I believe even the best of us have hardly scratched the surface of learning from the collaterals, and that is why mastering them was in the #1 slot of importance on VPW's Bucket List Teaching.
Yah, the guy who couldn't master keeping his pants zipped is telling us what we need to master. Saint Vic wasn't master of his domain.
6 minutes ago, Mike said:
His final instructions to leaders at the top (and applicable to born again believers) were to come back to PFAL.
Yah, come back to PLAF so we could lead you further into the kingdom of the blind.
6 minutes ago, Mike said:
I finally heeded that instruction for 20 years of weekly study of the collaterals with others and on my own.
And what's it done for you? Given you hubris so you can feel you're better than everyone else? Paging Helen Keller!
6 minutes ago, Mike said:
I'm still out of the loop, still mastering the collaterals, and still learning much.
As I can see by your inability to be humble and meek and apply the law of believing.
6 minutes ago, Mike said:
I'm still out of the loop on some things due to the lost months and years, but am thankful for how well things have worked out since 1998, when I seriously came back to the collaterals.
Like I said, I can see that in your inability to make the law of believing your own.
6 minutes ago, Mike said:
I look forward to more years learning what was actually in print, and clarifying more items like this cancer spirit thing.
What's to clarify? See Waysider's previous post. Saint Vic said it period, full stop. Now you said Saint Vic used the same teachings as Jesus et Al as far as devil spirits. Did Jesus teach cancer was a devil spirit.
6 minutes ago, Mike said:
It was a very reliable source that told me VPW said SOMETHING like "cancer is a spirit" in an early AC. I only have one AC from that time period.
I don't doubt VPW said something like that one sentence, and a lot more supporting sentences to go with it. Someday I may find it, or find someone who took good notes from that class.
Read Waysider's previous post.
6 minutes ago, Mike said:
What I do doubt heavily are all the accounts here that I have read of that one short sentence. None of them ever have had the supporting sentences that I need to interpret such a sentence or one like it.
You mean like you supplied the supporting sentances for the word of God is the will of God?
Or how about the supporting sentences for your claim God can lie evidence that Saint Vic was a MOG and spoke for God. How about the supporting sentences for your claim God gave Saint Vic permission to steal others work.
6 minutes ago, Mike said:
*/*/*
Then there is the possibility that VPW made a mistake in that early AC. I am open to that, but not without the supporting sentences. It's all guesswork what he taught on this.
Yah, those eight people that stayed it, all guesswork. \s
Waysider presented you the text straight out of the AC collateral. Not guesswork, fact?
6 minutes ago, Mike said:
I recently became friends with an old grad who may have info on this. No guarantees.
Why bother? If you get an answer contrary to your narrative you'll twist it to something that fits your narrative.
Remember what I said about length of post and effort to con.
Mike, in the land of the blind, a one eyed man is king.
I beleeve one day we will find manuscripts to support victor's imaginative PI. When those manuscripts are uncovered, or when they are invented, with them we will find the supporting sentences.
The crux of the issue here is not whether cancer is spirit possession or is not spirit possession. The heart of the matter is whether Wierwille made the claim or didn't. Clearly, he did. No supporting statements are needed. It's on page 22 of the Advanced Class syllabus.
Cancer patients may view their tumors as parasites taking over their bodies, but this is more than a metaphor for Peter Duesberg, a molecular and cell biology professor at the University of California, Berkeley.
Cancerous tumorsareparasitic organisms, he said. Each one is a new species that, like most parasites, depends on its host for food, but otherwise operates independently and often to the detriment of its host.
A karyograph is one way to display the number of copies of each chromosome in a clone of cells from an individual or a cancer. Here, the karyograph shows the chromosomes of 20 individual cells (represented by black lines) of a normal human male. Each cell has precisely two copies of 22 chromosomes and one copy of each sex chromosome, demonstrating that human cells have a fixed and stable karyotype.
In a paper published in the July 1 issue of the journalCell Cycle, Duesberg and UC Berkeley colleagues describe their theory that carcinogenesis – the generation of cancer – is just another form of speciation, the evolution of new species.
“Cancer is comparable to a bacterial level of complexity, but still autonomous, that is, it doesn’t depend on other cells for survival; it doesn’t follow orders like other cells in the body, and it can grow where, when and how it likes,” said Duesberg. “That’s what species are all about.”
This novel view of cancer could yield new insights into the growth and metastasis of cancer, Duesberg said, and perhaps new approaches to therapy or new drug targets. In addition, because the disrupted chromosomes of newly evolved cancers are visible in a microscope, it may be possible to detect cancers earlier, much as today’s Pap smear relies on changes in the shapes of cervical cells as an indication of chromosomal problems that could lead to cervical cancer.
Carcinogenesis and evolution
The idea that cancer formation is akin to the evolution of a new species is not new, with various biologists hinting at it in the late 20thcentury. Evolutionary biologist Julian S. Huxley wrote in 1956 that “Once the neoplastic process has crossed the threshold of autonomy, the resultant tumor can be logically regarded as a new biologic species….”
Last year, Dr. Mark Vincent of the London Regional Cancer Program and University of Western Ontario argued in the journalEvolutionthat carcinogenesis and the clonal evolution of cancer cells are speciation events in the strict Darwinian sense.
The evolution of cancer “seems to be different from the evolution of a grasshopper, for instance, in part because the cancer genome is not a stable genome like that of other species. The challenging question is, what has it become?” Vincent said in an interview. “Duesberg’s argument from karyotype is different from my argument from the definition of a species, but it is consistent.”
Vincent noted that there are three known transmissible cancers, including devil facial tumor disease, a “parasitic cancer” that attacks and kills Tasmanian devils. It is transmitted from one animal to another by a whole cancer cell. A similar parasitic cancer, canine transmissible venereal tumor, is transmitted between dogs via a single cancer cell that has a genome dating from the time when dogs were first domesticated. A third transmissible cancer was found in hamsters.
“Cancer has become a successful parasite,” Vincent said.
Mutation theory vs. aneuploidy
Duesbeg’s arguments derive from his controversial proposal that the reigning theory of cancer – that tumors begin when a handful of mutated genes send a cell into uncontrolled growth – is wrong. He argues, instead, that carcinogenesis is initiated by a disruption of the chromosomes, which leads to duplicates, deletions, breaks and other chromosomal damage that alter the balance of tens of thousands of genes. The result is a cell with totally new traits – that is, a new phenotype.
“I think Duesberg is correct by criticizing mutation theory, which sustains a billion-dollar drug industry focused on blocking these mutations,” said Vincent, a medical oncologist. “Yet very, very few cancers have been cured by targeted drug therapy, and even if a drug helps a patient survive six or nine more months, cancer cells often find a way around it.”
Chromosomal disruption, called aneuploidy, is known to cause disease. Down syndrome, for example, is caused by a third copy of chromosome 21, one of the 23 pairs of human chromosomes. All cancer cells are aneuploid, Duesberg said, though proponents of the mutation theory of cancer argue that this is a consequence of cancer, not the cause.
Key to Duesberg’s theory is that some initial chromosomal mutation – perhaps impairing the machinery that duplicates or segregates chromosomes in preparation for cell division – screws up a cell’s chromosomes, breaking some or making extra copies of others. Normally this would be a death sentence for a cell, but in rare cases, he said, such disrupted chromosomes might be able to divide further, perpetuating and compounding the damage. Over decades, continued cell division would produce many unviable cells as well as a few still able to divide autonomously and seed cancer.
Duesberg asserts that cancers are new species because those viable enough to continue dividing develop relatively stable chromosome patterns, called karyotypes, distinct from the chromosome pattern of their human host. While all known organisms today have stable karyotypes, with all cells containing precisely two or four copies of each chromosome, cancers exhibit a more flexible and unpredictable karyotype, including not only intact chromosomes from the host, but also partial, truncated and mere stumps of chromosomes.
“If humans changed their karyotype – the number and arrangement of chromosomes – we would either die or be unable to mate, or in very rare cases become another species,” Duesberg said. But cancer cells just divide and make more of themselves. They don’t have to worry about reproduction, which is sensitive to chromosomal balance. In fact, as long as the genes for mitosis are still intact, a cancer cell can survive with many disrupted and unbalanced chromosomes, such as those found in an aneuploid cell, he said.
The karyotype does change as a cancer cell divides, because the chromosomes are disrupted and thus don’t copy perfectly. But the karyotype is “only flexible within a certain margin,” Duesberg said. “Within these margins it remains stable, despite its flexibility.”
Karyographs display karyotype variability
Duesberg and his colleagues developed karyographs as a way to display the aneuploid nature of a cell’s karyotype and its stability across numerous cell cultures. Using these karyographs, he and his colleagues analyzed several cancers, clearly demonstrating that the karyotype is amazingly similar in all cells of a specific cancer line, yet totally different from the karyotypes of other cancers and even the same type of cancer from a different patient.
In contrast to normal cells, cervical cancer cells (HeLa) have flexible chromosomes. The 23 normal chromosomes have between 0 and 4 copies, while the several dozen hybrid or “marker” chromosomes have between 0 and 2. The copy numbers differ in the 20 individual HeLa cells shown, but they are nearly clonal, varying around an average clonal number.
HeLa cells are a perfect example. Perhaps the most famous cancer cell line in history, HeLa cells were obtained in 1951 from a cervical cancer that eventually killed a young black woman named Henrietta Lacks. The 60-year-old cell line derived from her cancer has a relatively stable karyotype that keeps it alive through division after division.
“Once a cell has crossed that barrier of autonomy, it’s a new species,” Duesberg said. “HeLa cells have evolved in the laboratory and are now even more stable than they probably were when they first arose.”
The individualized karyotypes of cancers resemble the distinct karyotypes of different species,, Duesberg said. While biologists have not characterized the karyotypes of most species, no two species are known that have the same number and arrangement of chromosomes, including those of, for example, gorillas and humans, who share 99 percent of their genes.
Duesberg argues that his speciation theory explains cancer’s autonomy, immortality and flexible, but relatively stable, karyotype. It also explains the long latency period between initial aneuploidization and full blown cancer, because there is such a low probability of evolving an autonomous karyotype.
“You start with a chromosomal mutation, that is, aneuploidy perhaps from X-rays or cigarettes or radiation, that destabilizes and eventually changes your karyotype or renders it non-viable,” he said. “The rare viable aneuploidies of cancers are, in effect, the karyotypes of new species.”
Duesberg hopes that the carcinogenesis-equals-speciation theory will spur new approaches to diagnosing and treating cancer. Vincent, for example, suspects that cancers are operating right at the edge of survivability, maintaining genomic flexibility while retaining the ability to divide forever. Driving them to evolve even faster, he said, “might push them over the edge.”
Duesberg’s colleagues are postdoctoral fellow Daniele Mandrioli and research associate Amanda McCormack of UC Berkeley and graduate student Joshua M. Nicholson in the Department of Biological Sciences at Virginia Polytechnic Institute.
Duesberg’s research is funded by the Abraham J. and Phyllis Katz Foundation, philanthropists Dr. Christian Fiala, Rajeev and Christine Joshi, Robert Leppo and Peter Rozsa of the Taubert Memorial Foundation, other private sources and the Forschungsfonds der Fakultät für Klinische Medizin Mannheim der Universität Heidelberg.
Were "excellor" sessions on discerning of spirits ever offered or sold?
Interestingly enough, the answer is yes (sort of). Believers used to go to public places, such as malls and fairs and parks, and try to discern the spirits in the people around them. Wierwille indirectly promoted this by his tales of trips to the race track to pick winners and his supposed ability to see black hearts for seed of the serpent and white hearts for holy spirit.
Interestingly enough, the answer is yes (sort of). Believers used to go to public places, such as malls and fairs and parks, and try to discern the spirits in the people around them. Wierwille indirectly promoted this by his tales of trips to the race track to pick winners and his supposed ability to see black hearts for seed of the serpent and white hearts for holy spirit.
Does anyone else remember being taught (Advanced Class or Dealing With The Adversary, perhaps?) that the subconscious is a fallacy? Something about everything really being spiritual background noise or ...something. I think that was proposed as part of the idea behind throwing retemories at undesired thoughts, "keeping the birds from nesting where they land". We were supposed to be the ones who made the decision which thoughts to entertain and which to discard. Somehow, 50 years of life experiences have clouded the details for me.
The key element relating to free will thought and behavior was this:
"We were supposed to be the ones who made the decision which thoughts to entertain and which to discard."
Wierwille indirectly promoted this by his tales of trips to the race track to pick winners and his supposed ability to see black hearts for seed of the serpent and white hearts for holy spirit. (actual quote from waysider)
I might disagree with you on whether or to what degree Victor indirectly or DIRECTLY promoted it on that very basis.
He had long before us devised a con game (see threads and comments about The Book of Charlie, and long prior to said comments) when astute observers identified what he did in the PFLAP class to develop his "identity" (or, in modern marketing lingo, his "brand") as MOGFODAT, built a subculture around it, co-opted The Way East and The Way West and began getting non-profit rich.
Victor had archetypes on which to model his scheme. And it wasn't the guy he stole the PFLAP class from.
PFLAP was the indoctrination. Mike still models his life after this entire confidence game.
In that regard, a case could be made that those TALES about the race track and black/white hearts was, in fact BRAINWASHING. To a degree, I fell for it. Evidenced by how clearly I remember those tales.
I also remember walking around the campus in Emporia (which I think was where I attended the advanced class on PFLAP, even that isn't as clear as the brainwashing/programming) trying to receive revelation, including discerning of spirts. First thought, y'all!
It was the same summer I first remember hearing detractors claiming we were brainwashed. Of course, none of us believed them.
Wierwille gave us examples of how he "practiced" discerning of spirits. Was that a veiled invitation to try it ourselves? Well, at the time, it seemed to be. That's my answer to the question regarding D.O.S. excellor sessions.
Now, regarding retemories and how such things relate to the discussion of freewill:
We were advised to disregard our own thoughts and emotions and replace them with thoughts that had been prescribed for us. We made decisions and behaved in ways we might have otherwise decided against.
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When I was in what must have been about the second grade or so, I heard something about how diamonds were made. Of course, the explanation was tailored for the understanding of a wide eyed 7 year old
waysider
I fixed that for you.
Nathan_Jr
Bravo! This reminds me only to believe something until there is no good reason to continue believing. It goes to why I don't believe in belief. Or, spelled with literal accuracy according to usag
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Nathan_Jr
Were "excellor" sessions on discerning of spirits ever offered or sold?
Edited by Nathan_JrIs "excellor" a singlet?
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So_crates
Mike: I heard that sentence "cancer is a devil spirit" in the early 70s, and asked it that was taught in the AC. The answer to me was "yes" however it was followed by much more detail that I did not yet understand.
Me: If you didn't understand the detail how can you be sure Saint Vic didn't teach it?
Just because you didn't hear Saint Vic teach cancer is a devil spirit doesn't mean he didn't.
Didn't you claim a few threads ago that Saint Vic didn't claim that the class taught prosperity?
Mike: No one here ever reported any detail on this, besides the oversimplified sentence above.
Me: Contradict yourself much? First your saying there were details you didn't understand and now your saying the sentence was oversimplified.
And, naturally, those three classes were every Advanced Class there was. What if the statement was made in one of the classes you don't have?
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Nathan_Jr
The teaching of cancer as devil spirit causes great cognitive dissonance for anyone standing on the shoulders of victor paul wierwille, American quack, because irony.
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So_crates
I'm surprised you haven't. Below are post by people that have. This is from the first 20 of 86 pages in search. Many of the post had nothing to do with the topic at hand.
Now. Mike, how did you manage to stay out of the loop?
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waysider
Tell me cancer is a devil spirit without telling me cancer is a devil spirit.
Advanced Class, page 22
"They *(devil spirits)* lodge in your physical body - as diseases that have a life of their own."
*Parentheses* added for clarity
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waysider
2x post
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Mike
The same way ALL of you stayed out of the loop on this and many other items: by our old man nature dragging us down to a halt at times.
I believe even the best of us have hardly scratched the surface of learning from the collaterals, and that is why mastering them was in the #1 slot of importance on VPW's Bucket List Teaching.
His final instructions to leaders at the top (and applicable to born again believers) were to come back to PFAL. I finally heeded that instruction for 20 years of weekly study of the collaterals with others and on my own.
I'm still out of the loop, still mastering the collaterals, and still learning much.
I'm still out of the loop on some things due to the lost months and years, but am thankful for how well things have worked out since 1998, when I seriously came back to the collaterals.
I look forward to more years learning what was actually in print, and clarifying more items like this cancer spirit thing.
It was a very reliable source that told me VPW said SOMETHING like "cancer is a spirit" in an early AC. I only have one AC from that time period.
I don't doubt VPW said something like that one sentence, and a lot more supporting sentences to go with it. Someday I may find it, or find someone who took good notes from that class.
What I do doubt heavily are all the accounts here that I have read of that one short sentence. None of them ever have had the supporting sentences that I need to interpret such a sentence or one like it.
*/*/*
Then there is the possibility that VPW made a mistake in that early AC. I am open to that, but not without the supporting sentences. It's all guesswork what he taught on this.
I recently became friends with an old grad who may have info on this. No guarantees.
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waysider
Did you not read what I just posted mere minutes ago?
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Mike
I may have missed it in the roller coaster ride here of many posts per minute.
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Mike
I do remember that!
The "life of their own" was another thing I never understood.
It seems pretty subjective. What is "life" mean here.
Again, I need supporting sentences.
Was that on page 22 of the syllabus?
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So_crates
Yah, the guy who couldn't master keeping his pants zipped is telling us what we need to master. Saint Vic wasn't master of his domain.
Yah, come back to PLAF so we could lead you further into the kingdom of the blind.
And what's it done for you? Given you hubris so you can feel you're better than everyone else? Paging Helen Keller!
As I can see by your inability to be humble and meek and apply the law of believing.
Like I said, I can see that in your inability to make the law of believing your own.
What's to clarify? See Waysider's previous post. Saint Vic said it period, full stop. Now you said Saint Vic used the same teachings as Jesus et Al as far as devil spirits. Did Jesus teach cancer was a devil spirit.
Read Waysider's previous post.
You mean like you supplied the supporting sentances for the word of God is the will of God?
Or how about the supporting sentences for your claim God can lie evidence that Saint Vic was a MOG and spoke for God. How about the supporting sentences for your claim God gave Saint Vic permission to steal others work.
Yah, those eight people that stayed it, all guesswork. \s
Waysider presented you the text straight out of the AC collateral. Not guesswork, fact?
Why bother? If you get an answer contrary to your narrative you'll twist it to something that fits your narrative.
Remember what I said about length of post and effort to con.
Mike, in the land of the blind, a one eyed man is king.
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So_crates
What you need is a better excuse for not owning up to the facts.
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Nathan_Jr
I beleeve one day we will find manuscripts to support victor's imaginative PI. When those manuscripts are uncovered, or when they are invented, with them we will find the supporting sentences.
It just won't happen in my lifetime.
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waysider
The crux of the issue here is not whether cancer is spirit possession or is not spirit possession. The heart of the matter is whether Wierwille made the claim or didn't. Clearly, he did. No supporting statements are needed. It's on page 22 of the Advanced Class syllabus.
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Nathan_Jr
Someone asked: What is "life" mean?
Well, it depends on what your definition of "is" is.
Also, is the question grammatically correct? "It seems pretty subjective."
The short answer is no one knows. It's kinda like the meaning of San Diego -- when in Rome!
https://news.berkeley.edu/2011/07/26/are-cancers-newly-evolved-species#:~:text=Cancerous tumors are parasitic organisms,the detriment of its host.
Are cancers newly evolved species?
By Robert Sanders
Cancer patients may view their tumors as parasites taking over their bodies, but this is more than a metaphor for Peter Duesberg, a molecular and cell biology professor at the University of California, Berkeley.
Cancerous tumors are parasitic organisms, he said. Each one is a new species that, like most parasites, depends on its host for food, but otherwise operates independently and often to the detriment of its host.
A karyograph is one way to display the number of copies of each chromosome in a clone of cells from an individual or a cancer. Here, the karyograph shows the chromosomes of 20 individual cells (represented by black lines) of a normal human male. Each cell has precisely two copies of 22 chromosomes and one copy of each sex chromosome, demonstrating that human cells have a fixed and stable karyotype.
In a paper published in the July 1 issue of the journal Cell Cycle , Duesberg and UC Berkeley colleagues describe their theory that carcinogenesis – the generation of cancer – is just another form of speciation, the evolution of new species.
“Cancer is comparable to a bacterial level of complexity, but still autonomous, that is, it doesn’t depend on other cells for survival; it doesn’t follow orders like other cells in the body, and it can grow where, when and how it likes,” said Duesberg. “That’s what species are all about.”
This novel view of cancer could yield new insights into the growth and metastasis of cancer, Duesberg said, and perhaps new approaches to therapy or new drug targets. In addition, because the disrupted chromosomes of newly evolved cancers are visible in a microscope, it may be possible to detect cancers earlier, much as today’s Pap smear relies on changes in the shapes of cervical cells as an indication of chromosomal problems that could lead to cervical cancer.
Carcinogenesis and evolution
The idea that cancer formation is akin to the evolution of a new species is not new, with various biologists hinting at it in the late 20 th century. Evolutionary biologist Julian S. Huxley wrote in 1956 that “Once the neoplastic process has crossed the threshold of autonomy, the resultant tumor can be logically regarded as a new biologic species ….”
Last year, Dr. Mark Vincent of the London Regional Cancer Program and University of Western Ontario argued in the journal Evolution that carcinogenesis and the clonal evolution of cancer cells are speciation events in the strict Darwinian sense.
The evolution of cancer “seems to be different from the evolution of a grasshopper, for instance, in part because the cancer genome is not a stable genome like that of other species. The challenging question is, what has it become?” Vincent said in an interview. “Duesberg’s argument from karyotype is different from my argument from the definition of a species, but it is consistent.”
Vincent noted that there are three known transmissible cancers, including devil facial tumor disease, a “parasitic cancer” that attacks and kills Tasmanian devils. It is transmitted from one animal to another by a whole cancer cell. A similar parasitic cancer, canine transmissible venereal tumor, is transmitted between dogs via a single cancer cell that has a genome dating from the time when dogs were first domesticated. A third transmissible cancer was found in hamsters.
“Cancer has become a successful parasite,” Vincent said.
Mutation theory vs. aneuploidy
Duesbeg’s arguments derive from his controversial proposal that the reigning theory of cancer – that tumors begin when a handful of mutated genes send a cell into uncontrolled growth – is wrong. He argues, instead, that carcinogenesis is initiated by a disruption of the chromosomes, which leads to duplicates, deletions, breaks and other chromosomal damage that alter the balance of tens of thousands of genes. The result is a cell with totally new traits – that is, a new phenotype.
“I think Duesberg is correct by criticizing mutation theory, which sustains a billion-dollar drug industry focused on blocking these mutations,” said Vincent, a medical oncologist. “Yet very, very few cancers have been cured by targeted drug therapy, and even if a drug helps a patient survive six or nine more months, cancer cells often find a way around it.”
Chromosomal disruption, called aneuploidy, is known to cause disease. Down syndrome, for example, is caused by a third copy of chromosome 21, one of the 23 pairs of human chromosomes. All cancer cells are aneuploid, Duesberg said, though proponents of the mutation theory of cancer argue that this is a consequence of cancer, not the cause.
Key to Duesberg’s theory is that some initial chromosomal mutation – perhaps impairing the machinery that duplicates or segregates chromosomes in preparation for cell division – screws up a cell’s chromosomes, breaking some or making extra copies of others. Normally this would be a death sentence for a cell, but in rare cases, he said, such disrupted chromosomes might be able to divide further, perpetuating and compounding the damage. Over decades, continued cell division would produce many unviable cells as well as a few still able to divide autonomously and seed cancer.
Duesberg asserts that cancers are new species because those viable enough to continue dividing develop relatively stable chromosome patterns, called karyotypes, distinct from the chromosome pattern of their human host. While all known organisms today have stable karyotypes, with all cells containing precisely two or four copies of each chromosome, cancers exhibit a more flexible and unpredictable karyotype, including not only intact chromosomes from the host, but also partial, truncated and mere stumps of chromosomes.
“If humans changed their karyotype – the number and arrangement of chromosomes – we would either die or be unable to mate, or in very rare cases become another species,” Duesberg said. But cancer cells just divide and make more of themselves. They don’t have to worry about reproduction, which is sensitive to chromosomal balance. In fact, as long as the genes for mitosis are still intact, a cancer cell can survive with many disrupted and unbalanced chromosomes, such as those found in an aneuploid cell, he said.
The karyotype does change as a cancer cell divides, because the chromosomes are disrupted and thus don’t copy perfectly. But the karyotype is “only flexible within a certain margin,” Duesberg said. “Within these margins it remains stable, despite its flexibility.”
Karyographs display karyotype variability
Duesberg and his colleagues developed karyographs as a way to display the aneuploid nature of a cell’s karyotype and its stability across numerous cell cultures. Using these karyographs, he and his colleagues analyzed several cancers, clearly demonstrating that the karyotype is amazingly similar in all cells of a specific cancer line, yet totally different from the karyotypes of other cancers and even the same type of cancer from a different patient.
In contrast to normal cells, cervical cancer cells (HeLa) have flexible chromosomes. The 23 normal chromosomes have between 0 and 4 copies, while the several dozen hybrid or “marker” chromosomes have between 0 and 2. The copy numbers differ in the 20 individual HeLa cells shown, but they are nearly clonal, varying around an average clonal number.
HeLa cells are a perfect example. Perhaps the most famous cancer cell line in history, HeLa cells were obtained in 1951 from a cervical cancer that eventually killed a young black woman named Henrietta Lacks. The 60-year-old cell line derived from her cancer has a relatively stable karyotype that keeps it alive through division after division.
“Once a cell has crossed that barrier of autonomy, it’s a new species,” Duesberg said. “HeLa cells have evolved in the laboratory and are now even more stable than they probably were when they first arose.”
The individualized karyotypes of cancers resemble the distinct karyotypes of different species,, Duesberg said. While biologists have not characterized the karyotypes of most species, no two species are known that have the same number and arrangement of chromosomes, including those of, for example, gorillas and humans, who share 99 percent of their genes.
Duesberg argues that his speciation theory explains cancer’s autonomy, immortality and flexible, but relatively stable, karyotype. It also explains the long latency period between initial aneuploidization and full blown cancer, because there is such a low probability of evolving an autonomous karyotype.
“You start with a chromosomal mutation, that is, aneuploidy perhaps from X-rays or cigarettes or radiation, that destabilizes and eventually changes your karyotype or renders it non-viable,” he said. “The rare viable aneuploidies of cancers are, in effect, the karyotypes of new species.”
Duesberg hopes that the carcinogenesis-equals-speciation theory will spur new approaches to diagnosing and treating cancer. Vincent, for example, suspects that cancers are operating right at the edge of survivability, maintaining genomic flexibility while retaining the ability to divide forever. Driving them to evolve even faster, he said, “might push them over the edge.”
Duesberg’s colleagues are postdoctoral fellow Daniele Mandrioli and research associate Amanda McCormack of UC Berkeley and graduate student Joshua M. Nicholson in the Department of Biological Sciences at Virginia Polytechnic Institute.
Duesberg’s research is funded by the Abraham J. and Phyllis Katz Foundation, philanthropists Dr. Christian Fiala, Rajeev and Christine Joshi, Robert Leppo and Peter Rozsa of the Taubert Memorial Foundation, other private sources and the Forschungsfonds der Fakultät für Klinische Medizin Mannheim der Universität Heidelberg.
Edited by Nathan_JrGloves
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Rocky
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Rocky
Intriguing discussion of Victor Wierwille's private interpretation teachings on cancer and devil spirits.
Anyone have any idea how that relates at all to whether or not we have freedom of will?
Perhaps someone could explore the question of whether "stream of consciousness" posting is contrary to freedom of will?
Just sayin'.
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waysider
Interestingly enough, the answer is yes (sort of). Believers used to go to public places, such as malls and fairs and parks, and try to discern the spirits in the people around them. Wierwille indirectly promoted this by his tales of trips to the race track to pick winners and his supposed ability to see black hearts for seed of the serpent and white hearts for holy spirit.
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Nathan_Jr
Like this?
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waysider
Yes. The current tangent spun off a post I made yesterday.
Does anyone else remember being taught (Advanced Class or Dealing With The Adversary, perhaps?) that the subconscious is a fallacy? Something about everything really being spiritual background noise or ...something. I think that was proposed as part of the idea behind throwing retemories at undesired thoughts, "keeping the birds from nesting where they land". We were supposed to be the ones who made the decision which thoughts to entertain and which to discard. Somehow, 50 years of life experiences have clouded the details for me.
The key element relating to free will thought and behavior was this:
"We were supposed to be the ones who made the decision which thoughts to entertain and which to discard."
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Rocky
Oh, okay.
Was there a consensus?
If so, what is your assessment of said consensus?
Sometimes, so many replies add up to TL;DR.
But I'm thankful there was lively discussion.
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Rocky
I might disagree with you on whether or to what degree Victor indirectly or DIRECTLY promoted it on that very basis.
He had long before us devised a con game (see threads and comments about The Book of Charlie, and long prior to said comments) when astute observers identified what he did in the PFLAP class to develop his "identity" (or, in modern marketing lingo, his "brand") as MOGFODAT, built a subculture around it, co-opted The Way East and The Way West and began getting non-profit rich.
Victor had archetypes on which to model his scheme. And it wasn't the guy he stole the PFLAP class from.
PFLAP was the indoctrination. Mike still models his life after this entire confidence game.
In that regard, a case could be made that those TALES about the race track and black/white hearts was, in fact BRAINWASHING. To a degree, I fell for it. Evidenced by how clearly I remember those tales.
I also remember walking around the campus in Emporia (which I think was where I attended the advanced class on PFLAP, even that isn't as clear as the brainwashing/programming) trying to receive revelation, including discerning of spirts. First thought, y'all!
It was the same summer I first remember hearing detractors claiming we were brainwashed. Of course, none of us believed them.
That was more than 4 decades ago.
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Nathan_Jr
It appears you are quoting me, but that is actually a snippet of Waysider's response to my question about devil spurt discerning excellor sessions.
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waysider
Wierwille gave us examples of how he "practiced" discerning of spirits. Was that a veiled invitation to try it ourselves? Well, at the time, it seemed to be. That's my answer to the question regarding D.O.S. excellor sessions.
Now, regarding retemories and how such things relate to the discussion of freewill:
We were advised to disregard our own thoughts and emotions and replace them with thoughts that had been prescribed for us. We made decisions and behaved in ways we might have otherwise decided against.
Edited by waysidermissed a word/spelling
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