I infer that you and I as homo sapiens, members of the human race, aka humanity, do have free will AVAILABLE to us.
For thousands of years, a clever segment of cultures and societies, con artists used confidence or con games to manipulate us.
Wierwille was that kind of clever individual. It's not so easy to parse his motivations. Hence, biblical references to only God being able to discern what's in a person's heart.
Among the research described in The Loop (noted above) it IS available to read people's faces, other nonverbal cues, and actions to make snap judgments with a degree of accuracy.
Further, in reflecting on Shoshana Zuboff's research in The Age of Surveillance Capitalism, we know there's lots of clandestine surveillance going on online.
Beside tracking cookies (which can be minimized and suppressed to some degree), it is wise to never open spam emails and other dubious items on social media. It is obviously possible for various sources to plant more sinister tracking software on one's computer that way.
The rivers of my understanding bring these things together to infer the truth about points in my OP above.
Knowledge is power. Truth shall set you free... or at least help you get and stay as free as possible.
Some time ago, Mike posted about, let's say, limitations on human free will.
While I didn't find the case he made to be particularly compelling or coherent, I did start to recognize some of my actions IRL did not and do not match what I thought I intended.
if we don't familiarize w/mechanisms of our brains we'll be vulnerable to those who prey on us and will run the risk of being blind to the effects thereof.
unconscious tendencies are the control surfaces by which technologies will shape our lives
cultural forces work to convince us we make independent choices when we do the opposite
even years before scientific consensus on controversial findings, nascent understanding becomes bases for entire industries; hence, surveillance capitalism
two researchers (as a team) wrote key papers 1971-1979 and their findings are still challenged, but have become foundation for industries in behavioral guidance
unconscious biases manifest (in decisions) under pressure and moments of uncertainty
research subjects (people) faced with situations they didn't understand were powerfully influenced to make choices they didn't understand, producing scenarios likely to constrain future thinking
99% of our waking activity is strictly automatic and habitual
our brains are shortcut machines, desperate to hand off difficult cognitive tasks
many (nearly all) of what we think (believe) to be well-considered choices are, in fact, offhand, instinctive decisions
"although research has show inferences from [observing] thin slices of nonverbal behaviors can be surprisingly accurate, there is no good evidence trait inferences from facial appearance are accurate.
There are two (decision) systems at work in our brains. System 1 makes snap judgments, without conscious analysis/effort; System 2 involves actual analytical intelligence.
These notes are from the first couple of chapters.
Intuitively, it seems to me this research and reporting, with overtly stated focus on technology, can be used to take new looks at historical events to recognize patterns involving the pervasive nature of cults worldwide in contemporary times. Notably, twi, the LDS church, and JWs... but also many more.
I have long recognized the significance of my younger life exposure to the Catholic Church/religion as having "primed" me for PFLAP and twi.
4 hours ago, Rocky said:
I infer that you and I as homo sapiens, members of the human race, aka humanity, do have free will AVAILABLE to us.
For thousands of years, a clever segment of cultures and societies, con artists used confidence or con games to manipulate us.
Wierwille was that kind of clever individual. It's not so easy to parse his motivations. Hence, biblical references to only God being able to discern what's in a person's heart.
Among the research described in The Loop (noted above) it IS available to read people's faces, other nonverbal cues, and actions to make snap judgments with a degree of accuracy.
Further, in reflecting on Shoshana Zuboff's research in The Age of Surveillance Capitalism, we know there's lots of clandestine surveillance going on online.
Beside tracking cookies (which can be minimized and suppressed to some degree), it is wise to never open spam emails and other dubious items on social media. It is obviously possible for various sources to plant more sinister tracking software on one's computer that way.
The rivers of my understanding bring these things together to infer the truth about points in my OP above.
Knowledge is power. Truth shall set you free... or at least help you get and stay as free as possible.
What makes your posts much more captivating to me are the references to your experiences, the interdisciplinary studies you mentioned and of course the book you mentioned. I’ve read a couple of other books along these lines, and I read them – if I remember based on your recommendations:
Subliminal: How Your Unconscious Mind Rules Your Behavior by Leonard Mlodinow …I love the back of the dust jacket – if you hold it a certain way to the light you can see Buy! Buy! Buy!in a shiny ghost image. (actually he's got more 'subliminal' messages all over the jacket "Hey there, yes: you sexy" no kidding )
One of the reasons I've enjoyed these books may be like you saying how “Catholic Church/religion…"primed" me for PFLAP and twi”. I believe as we improve cognitive skills we get better at becoming aware of some on that unconscious stuff that influences us. I think of growing up in the Roman Catholic Church, being an artist and musician during the counterculture 60s, and having a fascination for how things works are just a few of the undercurrents I am fuzzily aware of that gently pushed (that's probably too strong a description of such subtle forces ) me in the direction of PFAL / TWI...maybe I was attracted to that stuff because it looked like it could help me get whatever it was I was looking for...without really knowing what I was looking for
I’m a sucker for You Tube videos of cats, dogs, musical instruments and how-to stuff. I’m aware of the algorithms the servers have and they feed me similar videos and related ads. It’s entertaining – but you know a similar feedback happens for news, politics, religion…sometimes it takes a lot of effort to wade through the bull-$hit and the noise and boil something down to the essentials of an issue.
When you mentioned The Loop can read people's faces, other nonverbal cues, and actions to make snap judgments with a degree of accuracy, it reminded me of some technology I’ve read about that can “read your mind” - experts using a neural network to predict images based on your brain signals in scans.
You quote from the book “99% of our waking activity is strictly automatic and habitual” got me thinking that might be relative to one’s age. I am running on 99% automatic mode / habits now in my late 60s! And it’s kind of scary to think about that – because I know I’ve built up a lot of bad habits! Little kids are just forming habits and learning routines to navigate their world…
...Another frightening thing about aging – I seem to have a decreased ability to multitask. At least several times a week I’m on some mundane chore around the house – like going to clean the cat litter box ...and on the way I notice a book I left out. So, I get sidetracked – pick up the book and glance over something I highlighted - and maybe read more of the book... Totally forgot about the cat box (the cat valet is off his game )…maybe this all belongs on another thread – maybe I should start one: I’ve lost the will to remember what I was doing.
When you mentioned [how in the book] The Loop, [people] can read people's faces, other nonverbal cues, and actions to make snap judgments with a degree of accuracy, it reminded me of some technology I’ve read about that can “read your mind” - experts using a neural network to predict images based on your brain signals in scans.
To clarify, if I wasn't adequately clear,
At this point, my understanding is with machine learning (ever increasing base of data from which to make inferences), computers can indeed make reasonable and in some cases quite accurate predictions about an individual's preferences. YouTube and Netflix are pretty aggressive in doing so. Neither gets my preferences right all the time.
I'm not sure what Netflix does about the fact that I'm enthralled with a documentary about how babies learn and come out of the womb ready to engage other humans. Otherwise, I have been enjoying the dark crime drama series Ozark lately. It's like each episode is it's own short story with the same setting and characters, but new dilemmas each time.
Oh, and notably I watched American Hustle last night. I've been wanted to view that movie since it came out about ten years ago. Main reason? Amy Adams' beauty... and seductiveness (and being scantily clad plenty of times in it. For a decade I didn't realize there was actually a story to it. The story is a fictionalized version of the ABSCAM scandal. Frankly, I don't expect to watch it a second time because it drags and other than the overdramatized confidence game angle, it was mostly boring. But Amy Adams was very hot in the movie. OTOH, Netflix is prompting me to watch a couple of Bourne movies... which I do enjoy.
2 hours ago, T-Bone said:
...Another frightening thing about aging – I seem to have a decreased ability to multitask. At least several times a week I’m on some mundane chore around the house – like going to clean the cat litter box ...and on the way I notice a book I left out. So, I get sidetracked – pick up the book and glance over something I highlighted - and maybe read more of the book... Totally forgot about the cat box (the cat valet is off his game )…maybe this all belongs on another thread – maybe I should start one: I’ve lost the will to remember what I was doing.
I'm not uncomfortable with you introducing this tangent. I'm confident the issue with distraction is VERY common these days. Maybe not limited to sexagenarians like us. I will not be surprised to read in The Loop about distraction and increasing attention deficits. I don't see it necessarily in the table of contents of this book. There's no index so I can't look it up.
I also, I appreciate the humor in some of your comment.
You might find talks and shows by Derren Brown interesting. He has a big YouTube channel and a large following, all of whom want to be entertained. But there's a serious side to what he does and says, too. He doesn't explain how he does what he does in this episode, but there are others you can watch that do explain more.
He's done episodes on Faith Healing and on Religious Experiences. Very good at debunking - whilst still leaving you mystified.
Watching too much of his stuff can make one very, very sceptical.
"Man is the creature who does not know what to desire, and he turns to others in order to make up his mind. We desire what others desire because we imitate their desires.
"Man is the creature who does not know what to desire, and he turns to others in order to make up his mind. We desire what others desire because we imitate their desires.
Rocky, I was too busy to read this thread when first posted, but I just started reading it today.
Your opening post is fascinating and loaded with details, so I will have to check out that book.
The points you posted were very much in line with my thinking and my ideas for redefining free will to fit with science.
I admit that the thread on determinism that Nathan started for me was a mass of confusion, but not the ideas I was pumping. I had a brand new idea I was hammering out, and it was even more new to all who read the thread. Then the "vpw vs. gsc" theme clouded it over, even though the ideas themselves were very far from anything we experienced at TWI.
I'd say that from your first post in this thread, Rocky, that you did get the gist of half of what I was talking about: that our free will's details are far from ever being explored carefully.
There are lots of indications that we ALSO have a very mechanical and robotic kind of will that seems to prevail over freedom much of the time. Our free will is limited, and getting to know it's limitations is useful, especially when the notion of free will is constantly coming up.
P.S. I ordered that book, The Loop: How Technology Is Creating a World Without Choices and How to Fight Back, from amazon just now. Thanks for the tip.
I'd say that from your first post in this thread, Rocky, that you did get the gist of half of what I was talking about: that our free will's details are far from ever being explored carefully.
Hey Mike,
I don't generally appreciate your communication skills, but I do "get" that in some areas of knowledge you explore and try to learn things. I grasped part of what you were getting at regarding our agency/free will and did some exploring myself. So, thank you for your openness regarding scientific learning. And for plodding along in spite of the fact not everybody "gets" you or the points you try to make. Disclaimer: I'm still not on board with your perspective regarding TWI/VPW/PFLAP.
But I have ongoing curiosity about a lot of things and try to stay open to changing my mind about some of those things.
I didn't get that far in the video yet, to see that book, but the first half is very cool.
It's about anesthesia effects, and on split-brain surgery effects.
They now have much better equipment to study this split-brain phenomenon than they did 30 years ago, when I first heard about it. The group I attended hosted Joe Bogen as a guest speaker, who was the first surgeon to perform split-brain surgery. I am happy to see this is still cutting edge in brain science after all these years. This video is the tip of the iceberg on STRANGE split-brain data and implications.
And anesthesiology was the FIRST area where hard science addressed the issue of consciousness, many decades ago. Before that hard core scientists avoided the field of consciousness due to the centuries of abuse in that field by religion and false science and fraud. Most of neuroscience is a very new science, but ansthesiology and split-brain go way back.
She won a MacArthur award for that book, so it is a leader in the field.
Scientific American magazine called that book a classic in 1991, and since then she has written a few smaller books touching on free will without mentioning that term very much.
What is unique about Churchland is she started out as a fully credentialed ivy-league Philosopher, and then fully educated herself in math, science, physics, and chemistry with tutors like DNA Nobel Laureate Frances Crick. At one time she had an office in the Salk Institute near Crick's, and another office across the street in the UCSD Philosophy Dept.
Her book "Neurophilosophy" very much started this interaction between the two fields of Philosophy and Neuroscience, and she is still an active participant.
I imagine she could be mentioned in the book you cited above.
Well, I don't find Neurophilosophy in my local public libraries. And a new copy on Amazon is either $75 or more than $100.
However, I do find a more recent book by this author in the public libraries. Conscience: the origins of moral intuition. That looks pretty interesting.
Well, I don't find Neurophilosophy in my local public libraries. And a new copy on Amazon is either $75 or more than $100.
However, I do find a more recent book by this author in the public libraries. Conscience: the origins of moral intuition. That looks pretty interesting.
That "Conscience" is an excellent book!
And I saw that Amazon has used copies of Neurophilosophy for under $10
Of course, you're assuming that "free will" is a good thing. (Aren't you?)
Is it?
We have some amount of free will within parameters. Those parameters are important. Perhaps you should be exploring the parameters. Which are partly cultural norms, partly because of our genetic makeup, partly inbuilt fight-or-flight and other autonomic responses, partly - well, who knows what. Perhaps you are exploring the parameters. But you can't escape them.
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waysider
When I was in what must have been about the second grade or so, I heard something about how diamonds were made. Of course, the explanation was tailored for the understanding of a wide eyed 7 year old
waysider
I fixed that for you.
Nathan_Jr
Bravo! This reminds me only to believe something until there is no good reason to continue believing. It goes to why I don't believe in belief. Or, spelled with literal accuracy according to usag
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Rocky
I infer that you and I as homo sapiens, members of the human race, aka humanity, do have free will AVAILABLE to us.
For thousands of years, a clever segment of cultures and societies, con artists used confidence or con games to manipulate us.
Wierwille was that kind of clever individual. It's not so easy to parse his motivations. Hence, biblical references to only God being able to discern what's in a person's heart.
Among the research described in The Loop (noted above) it IS available to read people's faces, other nonverbal cues, and actions to make snap judgments with a degree of accuracy.
Further, in reflecting on Shoshana Zuboff's research in The Age of Surveillance Capitalism, we know there's lots of clandestine surveillance going on online.
Beside tracking cookies (which can be minimized and suppressed to some degree), it is wise to never open spam emails and other dubious items on social media. It is obviously possible for various sources to plant more sinister tracking software on one's computer that way.
The rivers of my understanding bring these things together to infer the truth about points in my OP above.
Knowledge is power. Truth shall set you free... or at least help you get and stay as free as possible.
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Rocky
Life can only be understood backwards, but it must be lived forwards. - Søren Kierkegaard
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T-Bone
Yes, I thought that determinism and free will thread left a lot to be desired…especially since a certain poster’s “thesis” was heavy on the presuppositions and abysmal on coherency and lack of testable hypotheses. (check out How to Develop a Theory: 14 Steps (with Pictures) - wikiHow for those so inclined to be theorists
)
What makes your posts much more captivating to me are the references to your experiences, the interdisciplinary studies you mentioned and of course the book you mentioned. I’ve read a couple of other books along these lines, and I read them – if I remember based on your recommendations:
Subliminal: How Your Unconscious Mind Rules Your Behavior by Leonard Mlodinow …I love the back of the dust jacket – if you hold it a certain way to the light you can see Buy! Buy! Buy! in a shiny ghost image. (actually he's got more 'subliminal' messages all over the jacket "Hey there, yes: you sexy" no kidding
)
The Hidden Brain: How Our Unconscious Minds Elect Presidents, Control Markets, Wage Wars, and Save Our Lives_by Shankar Vedantam
One of the reasons I've enjoyed these books may be like you saying how “Catholic Church/religion…"primed" me for PFLAP and twi”. I believe as we improve cognitive skills we get better at becoming aware of some on that unconscious stuff that influences us. I think of growing up in the Roman Catholic Church, being an artist and musician during the counterculture 60s, and having a fascination for how things works are just a few of the undercurrents I am fuzzily aware of that gently pushed (that's probably too strong a description of such subtle forces ) me in the direction of PFAL / TWI...maybe I was attracted to that stuff because it looked like it could help me get whatever it was I was looking for...without really knowing what I was looking for
I’m a sucker for You Tube videos of cats, dogs, musical instruments and how-to stuff. I’m aware of the algorithms the servers have and they feed me similar videos and related ads. It’s entertaining – but you know a similar feedback happens for news, politics, religion…sometimes it takes a lot of effort to wade through the bull-$hit and the noise and boil something down to the essentials of an issue.
When you mentioned The Loop can read people's faces, other nonverbal cues, and actions to make snap judgments with a degree of accuracy, it reminded me of some technology I’ve read about that can “read your mind” - experts using a neural network to predict images based on your brain signals in scans.
You quote from the book “99% of our waking activity is strictly automatic and habitual” got me thinking that might be relative to one’s age. I am running on 99% automatic mode / habits now in my late 60s! And it’s kind of scary to think about that – because I know I’ve built up a lot of bad habits! Little kids are just forming habits and learning routines to navigate their world…
...Another frightening thing about aging – I seem to have a decreased ability to multitask. At least several times a week I’m on some mundane chore around the house – like going to clean the cat litter box ...and on the way I notice a book I left out. So, I get sidetracked – pick up the book and glance over something I highlighted - and maybe read more of the book... Totally forgot about the cat box (the cat valet is off his game
)…maybe this all belongs on another thread – maybe I should start one: I’ve lost the will to remember what I was doing. 
Edited by T-Bonebuy this post!
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Rocky
To clarify, if I wasn't adequately clear,
At this point, my understanding is with machine learning (ever increasing base of data from which to make inferences), computers can indeed make reasonable and in some cases quite accurate predictions about an individual's preferences. YouTube and Netflix are pretty aggressive in doing so. Neither gets my preferences right all the time.
I'm not sure what Netflix does about the fact that I'm enthralled with a documentary about how babies learn and come out of the womb ready to engage other humans. Otherwise, I have been enjoying the dark crime drama series Ozark lately. It's like each episode is it's own short story with the same setting and characters, but new dilemmas each time.
Oh, and notably I watched American Hustle last night. I've been wanted to view that movie since it came out about ten years ago. Main reason? Amy Adams' beauty... and seductiveness (and being scantily clad plenty of times in it. For a decade I didn't realize there was actually a story to it. The story is a fictionalized version of the ABSCAM scandal. Frankly, I don't expect to watch it a second time because it drags and other than the overdramatized confidence game angle, it was mostly boring. But Amy Adams was very hot in the movie.
OTOH, Netflix is prompting me to watch a couple of Bourne movies... which I do enjoy.
I'm not uncomfortable with you introducing this tangent. I'm confident the issue with distraction is VERY common these days. Maybe not limited to sexagenarians like us. I will not be surprised to read in The Loop about distraction and increasing attention deficits. I don't see it necessarily in the table of contents of this book. There's no index so I can't look it up.
I also, I appreciate the humor in some of your comment.
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Twinky
You might find talks and shows by Derren Brown interesting. He has a big YouTube channel and a large following, all of whom want to be entertained. But there's a serious side to what he does and says, too. He doesn't explain how he does what he does in this episode, but there are others you can watch that do explain more.
He's done episodes on Faith Healing and on Religious Experiences. Very good at debunking - whilst still leaving you mystified.
Watching too much of his stuff can make one very, very sceptical.
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waysider
René Girard has entered the chat.
"Man is the creature who does not know what to desire, and he turns to others in order to make up his mind. We desire what others desire because we imitate their desires.
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T-Bone
I want to say cool stuff like that!
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waysider
Yeah, that's my desire, as well.
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Rocky
Emotions are contagious.
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Rocky
Apropos of not necessarily anything, I recently heard we are not what we eat, but who we MEET.
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Mike
Rocky, I was too busy to read this thread when first posted, but I just started reading it today.
Your opening post is fascinating and loaded with details, so I will have to check out that book.
The points you posted were very much in line with my thinking and my ideas for redefining free will to fit with science.
I admit that the thread on determinism that Nathan started for me was a mass of confusion, but not the ideas I was pumping. I had a brand new idea I was hammering out, and it was even more new to all who read the thread. Then the "vpw vs. gsc" theme clouded it over, even though the ideas themselves were very far from anything we experienced at TWI.
I'd say that from your first post in this thread, Rocky, that you did get the gist of half of what I was talking about: that our free will's details are far from ever being explored carefully.
There are lots of indications that we ALSO have a very mechanical and robotic kind of will that seems to prevail over freedom much of the time. Our free will is limited, and getting to know it's limitations is useful, especially when the notion of free will is constantly coming up.
P.S. I ordered that book, The Loop: How Technology Is Creating a World Without Choices and How to Fight Back, from amazon just now. Thanks for the tip.
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Rocky
Hey Mike,
I don't generally appreciate your communication skills, but I do "get" that in some areas of knowledge you explore and try to learn things. I grasped part of what you were getting at regarding our agency/free will and did some exploring myself. So, thank you for your openness regarding scientific learning. And for plodding along in spite of the fact not everybody "gets" you or the points you try to make. Disclaimer: I'm still not on board with your perspective regarding TWI/VPW/PFLAP.
But I have ongoing curiosity about a lot of things and try to stay open to changing my mind about some of those things.
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Rocky
This is the first paragraph of the preface to the book Free Will (seen in the NOVA video above)
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Mike
I didn't get that far in the video yet, to see that book, but the first half is very cool.
It's about anesthesia effects, and on split-brain surgery effects.
They now have much better equipment to study this split-brain phenomenon than they did 30 years ago, when I first heard about it. The group I attended hosted Joe Bogen as a guest speaker, who was the first surgeon to perform split-brain surgery. I am happy to see this is still cutting edge in brain science after all these years. This video is the tip of the iceberg on STRANGE split-brain data and implications.
And anesthesiology was the FIRST area where hard science addressed the issue of consciousness, many decades ago. Before that hard core scientists avoided the field of consciousness due to the centuries of abuse in that field by religion and false science and fraud. Most of neuroscience is a very new science, but ansthesiology and split-brain go way back.
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Mike
If you see the value in understanding the mind by a merging of Neuroscience and Philosophy, I have a book for you. It is "Neurophilosophy: Toward a Unified Science of the Mind-Brain" by Patricia Churchland.
She won a MacArthur award for that book, so it is a leader in the field.
Scientific American magazine called that book a classic in 1991, and since then she has written a few smaller books touching on free will without mentioning that term very much.
What is unique about Churchland is she started out as a fully credentialed ivy-league Philosopher, and then fully educated herself in math, science, physics, and chemistry with tutors like DNA Nobel Laureate Frances Crick. At one time she had an office in the Salk Institute near Crick's, and another office across the street in the UCSD Philosophy Dept.
Her book "Neurophilosophy" very much started this interaction between the two fields of Philosophy and Neuroscience, and she is still an active participant.
I imagine she could be mentioned in the book you cited above.
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Mike
BTW, here is a super short summary of my stand on free will:
Yes, we have free will but it is much weaker than we imagine or want it to be, and it is not immediate like we want it to be.
This delay in it, and its weakness means it is prone to failure, at first.
BUT with practice and persistence it can grow in strength, like a muscle.
We can't control everything about our brain, but with a few things in it, we can learn to control better tomorrow than we could yesterday.
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Nathan_Jr
Mmmph
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Mike
Was that a free will "Mmmph" or by accident?
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Rocky
Well, I don't find Neurophilosophy in my local public libraries. And a new copy on Amazon is either $75 or more than $100.
However, I do find a more recent book by this author in the public libraries. Conscience: the origins of moral intuition. That looks pretty interesting.
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Mike
That "Conscience" is an excellent book!
And I saw that Amazon has used copies of Neurophilosophy for under $10
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Mike
Neurophilosophy can be read at Internet Archive:
https://archive.org/details/neurophilosophyt0000chur
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Rocky
thanks
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Twinky
Of course, you're assuming that "free will" is a good thing. (Aren't you?)
Is it?
We have some amount of free will within parameters. Those parameters are important. Perhaps you should be exploring the parameters. Which are partly cultural norms, partly because of our genetic makeup, partly inbuilt fight-or-flight and other autonomic responses, partly - well, who knows what. Perhaps you are exploring the parameters. But you can't escape them.
And does it matter? To whom? And why?
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Twinky
Oh my. We appear to be in a slightly cynical morning today. Maybe due to lack of sleep from a sore shoulder.
I must exercise my free will, to be cheerful, and try not to pi$$ off my clients today.
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